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The New PvE Content and the GWF
blackyluke
Member Posts: 261 Arc User
Hello Community and hello Devs!
This post is made separated from the Official Feedback Thread due to
exceptional length.
So were over one month in on Module 4 and I'd like to give my insight on
the current situation of the Great Weapon Fighter. The majority of the
changes that came down in Module 4 were aimed at the overwhelming
strength of GWFs in PvP. A change that in my view was already based
on questionable "riot" of the community, threads popped up like
mushrooms pointing out how overpowered the GWFs were in PvP.
While players with fully focused and reasonably geared PvP-characters
already knew that the Hunter Ranger was in fact stronger than the GWF.
The community claimed that GWF is "easy to play" and "one shots" people.
That is in fact true and the ability "Roar" was not working intentionally.
However, lets took a look back in GWF history (this part can be skipped):
After the changes to Tenebrous Enchantment the Great Weapon Fighter
fell out of the meta all the way till Module 3. People realized the strength of
the Great Weapon Fighter after the much needed crop of AP gain on
Control Wizards. Probably the biggest influence was the flat out overpowered
feat "Deep Gash" that benefited more than expected from bonus stats.
The result: The GWF Feat "Deep Gash" got reworked and the GWF
gained other sources for more substained DPS with Icewind Dale. But a huge change was
the change of Student of the Sword the Instigator Feat. Appart from
At-Wills the GWF now doesnt bring debuffs to the party.
This change had a flaw were a feat did not work as intended and the
Great Weapon Fighter ended up with low ramp up time on his self-buffs
and was able to chain-control targets and land strong single target
rotations. The buff from Juni to the encounter Frontline Surge gave him
a boon to his PvE strength.
My view:
I on my part was welcoming the changes to GWF. I didn't appreciate
the new Roar with its low cooldown and high utility (feated).
I was hoping for a change of the reworked feat making it stack
properly and I understood the change to Threatening Rush even
though the new range was very weak. The stamina buff was
kinda surprising but hey its a buff, I don't mind.
But wait... all those changes are aimed at PvP GWF and
people are complaining about PvP since Beta. Talking about P2W,
because PvP in a MMO is not directly "skill-based" and is more or a less
a gear/build question. This might sound conflicting to the prior statement,
however after Roar is fixed, every class has reliable ways to kite and dodge
nearly every move of the GWF. CW, HR, TR and DC have "Immunity" with a
spacebar-press. The Guardian Fighter can react with his Shield Block. However,
the GWF needs to take damage before actually having access to his
Unstoppable, making him vunerable to chain-cc. He does have crowd-
control immunity from his "Sprint" but in a melee fight starting to sprint
not only cancels your actual DPS but also is really hard to pull off.
But lets stop that filthy PvP talk.
In PvE after the changes over the whole last year the GWF got newly
defined as a class overall. On my view the GWF not only lost his strenght
he lost his character.
He doesnt bring noticable buffs to the party.
He cannot face-tank.
His crowd control is limited and most foes are immune anyway.
So I really liked the "dancy" playstyle of the GWF. You wanna take damage to
use your Unstoppable and boost your DPS, on the other hand you have
to dodge red circles. But now in Module 4 I encountered major issues.
Especially the golems in the new skirmish and dungeon can often kill you
with one attack and those attacks can have a cast time of less than 1
second leaving very, very low reaction time. Most adds now charge
directly on to you. You end up getting charged by 4-5 adds when you pull,
this can easily kill you and you don't have much ways to dodge that. If
you survive, healing up and tanking continuesly may not work. Your damage
output is low compared to other DPS classes.
Now this is a major problem. As I listed above the logical way to play
the GWF now is going full-out on damage. The changes to GF make him
the superior tank, while bringing strong buffs to the group against the
lack of noticable buffs on the side of the GWF. That means you feat into
Destroyer and stack Power, that stat working very well with the GWF since he gets
boni to that stat from two feats and some others benefit from it (e.g. Deep Gash).
Among PvE GWF a pretty standard build evolved running 24% Armor Penetration
with Points in STR and gear like Avatar of War, Perfect Vorpal Enchantment and Radiants
in Offensive Slots along with Azures in Defensive Slots.
GWF was a class that can pull foes, decimate weak units
with his Wicked Strike and Frontline Surge, Tanking bosses and dealing
strong single target DPS with powers like Indomitable Battle Strike and
the At-will Sure Strike. He is the one who is ahead of the group. A
warrior, a fighter. Walking in getting smashed and waiting for your team
to revive you doesnt seem heroic. And if you're not able to do this
your pretty much a not-usefull party member as GWF. He is at this moment
weaker than CW, SW, DC and GF in terms of contribution to the group.
Maybe even HR as I ran dungeons and skirmishes with PvP geared HRs
which scored higher DPS as I did, while they were tankier than I was
(40k HP, high deflect, self-healing). Now you may say im just a scrub,
I die in PvE and probably my character is garbage!
My GWF is arguably one of the strongest PvE GWFs on the server.
I actually doubt that in terms of DPS a other GWF can outclass me.
I have r10s even on my stone, legendaries and perfect bonding runestones
and so on... I play this game for 17 months I'm proud that I archived that.
I have 24% Armor Penetration, nearly 20% Recharge Speed and AP gain,
7% Combat Advantage Damage increase, 35%+ Damage Reduction, over 36% Crit Chance
and over 12.5K Power. (These are the stats without buffs in combat)
I should be a monster!
However, I use my combat tracker and see that Control Wizards with
a proper build but only rank 7 enchantments deal more damage than I do
on Heroic Dragon Encounters. I usually used 10 Medi-Kits a week.
Recently I burned 10 on one day. Okay I can stack more lifesteal, health
points and maybe deflect and defense.
But what am I then? Im nowhere near a tank. I don't deal as much damage
as other classes and my best crowd control is a Daily (Avalance of Steal).
The only strenght that I see in the Great Weapon Fighter at this moment
is that I can spam daily. I can use a DC artifact, I got Punishing Charge
that has insane AP gain, so I can somewhat tank through using the
Immunity and the AoE prone of Avalance. I can somewhat deal AoE
damge with Spinning Strike, but recently I can't use Punishing Charge
cause I need Restoring Strike to actually survive. Not speaking of
the fact that the add groups are now very small and most of the foes
have actually high quality with CC immunity or encounters that make them
immune. Speaking of the immunity - the Guardian Fighter got continuesly
buffs to his Shield Block Ability making him able to block for example the
backpush of the now so common appearing dragons. We GWFs get
pushed around, thrown around and kicked around by nearly everything.
We face GWF model enemies that use Spinning Strike themselves and
we can't cast encounters cause their Spinning Strike pushes us back.
When I do the now so common boss fights against a dragon even though I
use Threatening Rush I cannot hold the aggro! I have 27k Hit Points and over
35% Damage Reduction and get one shot by not even Elite Mobs! I know
the new campaigns, gear and so on make characters stronger and stronger
but this is frustrating.
I don't really wanna rant here! This is not to be taken offensive in any way.
I want changes to the better of the game, I want balance and not an
overpowered GWF again!
The new PvE mechanics counter play me. The other classes offer more
utility, more damage or more tank capabilities. The Great Weapon
Fighter playstyle is destroyed and most important the feeling of the class
is lost.
I have to question here if a balance between PvE and PvP is needed.
If PvP is that important in this game and if it is possible to balance those
gamemodes. I like my Dungeons&Dragons, even if people say Dailies&CNfarm
those days the backbone, the concept of the game doesnt seem to get
the focus I expected.
This is my insight on the things, I don't hate on anything.
My point here is that I am Great Weapon Fighter and I feel like a wet noodle.
The Character, the feeling of being a GWF in this game is lost for me.
My character is nearly "maxed" in gear (lacking legendary rank on artifact equipment)
and I can't get things done in this game. I don't feel like I positivly contribute to the
group in a dungeon/skirmish. I don't feel like im nearly as strong as other classes
with equivalent gear.
Im kind of a perfectionist and focused on the stats and so on.. but for the
first time in Neverwinter (after 17 months) I feel like I don't play a Dungeons&Dragons
Class.
PS: I know the focus is now on DC and TR and making them viable. But with buffs to those classes GWF might be the new "TR in PvE".
PPS: I welcome any kind of constructive comment and would LOVE to hear from an official!!!
This post is made separated from the Official Feedback Thread due to
exceptional length.
So were over one month in on Module 4 and I'd like to give my insight on
the current situation of the Great Weapon Fighter. The majority of the
changes that came down in Module 4 were aimed at the overwhelming
strength of GWFs in PvP. A change that in my view was already based
on questionable "riot" of the community, threads popped up like
mushrooms pointing out how overpowered the GWFs were in PvP.
While players with fully focused and reasonably geared PvP-characters
already knew that the Hunter Ranger was in fact stronger than the GWF.
The community claimed that GWF is "easy to play" and "one shots" people.
That is in fact true and the ability "Roar" was not working intentionally.
However, lets took a look back in GWF history (this part can be skipped):
After the changes to Tenebrous Enchantment the Great Weapon Fighter
fell out of the meta all the way till Module 3. People realized the strength of
the Great Weapon Fighter after the much needed crop of AP gain on
Control Wizards. Probably the biggest influence was the flat out overpowered
feat "Deep Gash" that benefited more than expected from bonus stats.
The result: The GWF Feat "Deep Gash" got reworked and the GWF
gained other sources for more substained DPS with Icewind Dale. But a huge change was
the change of Student of the Sword the Instigator Feat. Appart from
At-Wills the GWF now doesnt bring debuffs to the party.
This change had a flaw were a feat did not work as intended and the
Great Weapon Fighter ended up with low ramp up time on his self-buffs
and was able to chain-control targets and land strong single target
rotations. The buff from Juni to the encounter Frontline Surge gave him
a boon to his PvE strength.
My view:
I on my part was welcoming the changes to GWF. I didn't appreciate
the new Roar with its low cooldown and high utility (feated).
I was hoping for a change of the reworked feat making it stack
properly and I understood the change to Threatening Rush even
though the new range was very weak. The stamina buff was
kinda surprising but hey its a buff, I don't mind.
But wait... all those changes are aimed at PvP GWF and
people are complaining about PvP since Beta. Talking about P2W,
because PvP in a MMO is not directly "skill-based" and is more or a less
a gear/build question. This might sound conflicting to the prior statement,
however after Roar is fixed, every class has reliable ways to kite and dodge
nearly every move of the GWF. CW, HR, TR and DC have "Immunity" with a
spacebar-press. The Guardian Fighter can react with his Shield Block. However,
the GWF needs to take damage before actually having access to his
Unstoppable, making him vunerable to chain-cc. He does have crowd-
control immunity from his "Sprint" but in a melee fight starting to sprint
not only cancels your actual DPS but also is really hard to pull off.
But lets stop that filthy PvP talk.
In PvE after the changes over the whole last year the GWF got newly
defined as a class overall. On my view the GWF not only lost his strenght
he lost his character.
He doesnt bring noticable buffs to the party.
He cannot face-tank.
His crowd control is limited and most foes are immune anyway.
So I really liked the "dancy" playstyle of the GWF. You wanna take damage to
use your Unstoppable and boost your DPS, on the other hand you have
to dodge red circles. But now in Module 4 I encountered major issues.
Especially the golems in the new skirmish and dungeon can often kill you
with one attack and those attacks can have a cast time of less than 1
second leaving very, very low reaction time. Most adds now charge
directly on to you. You end up getting charged by 4-5 adds when you pull,
this can easily kill you and you don't have much ways to dodge that. If
you survive, healing up and tanking continuesly may not work. Your damage
output is low compared to other DPS classes.
Now this is a major problem. As I listed above the logical way to play
the GWF now is going full-out on damage. The changes to GF make him
the superior tank, while bringing strong buffs to the group against the
lack of noticable buffs on the side of the GWF. That means you feat into
Destroyer and stack Power, that stat working very well with the GWF since he gets
boni to that stat from two feats and some others benefit from it (e.g. Deep Gash).
Among PvE GWF a pretty standard build evolved running 24% Armor Penetration
with Points in STR and gear like Avatar of War, Perfect Vorpal Enchantment and Radiants
in Offensive Slots along with Azures in Defensive Slots.
GWF was a class that can pull foes, decimate weak units
with his Wicked Strike and Frontline Surge, Tanking bosses and dealing
strong single target DPS with powers like Indomitable Battle Strike and
the At-will Sure Strike. He is the one who is ahead of the group. A
warrior, a fighter. Walking in getting smashed and waiting for your team
to revive you doesnt seem heroic. And if you're not able to do this
your pretty much a not-usefull party member as GWF. He is at this moment
weaker than CW, SW, DC and GF in terms of contribution to the group.
Maybe even HR as I ran dungeons and skirmishes with PvP geared HRs
which scored higher DPS as I did, while they were tankier than I was
(40k HP, high deflect, self-healing). Now you may say im just a scrub,
I die in PvE and probably my character is garbage!
My GWF is arguably one of the strongest PvE GWFs on the server.
I actually doubt that in terms of DPS a other GWF can outclass me.
I have r10s even on my stone, legendaries and perfect bonding runestones
and so on... I play this game for 17 months I'm proud that I archived that.
I have 24% Armor Penetration, nearly 20% Recharge Speed and AP gain,
7% Combat Advantage Damage increase, 35%+ Damage Reduction, over 36% Crit Chance
and over 12.5K Power. (These are the stats without buffs in combat)
I should be a monster!
However, I use my combat tracker and see that Control Wizards with
a proper build but only rank 7 enchantments deal more damage than I do
on Heroic Dragon Encounters. I usually used 10 Medi-Kits a week.
Recently I burned 10 on one day. Okay I can stack more lifesteal, health
points and maybe deflect and defense.
But what am I then? Im nowhere near a tank. I don't deal as much damage
as other classes and my best crowd control is a Daily (Avalance of Steal).
The only strenght that I see in the Great Weapon Fighter at this moment
is that I can spam daily. I can use a DC artifact, I got Punishing Charge
that has insane AP gain, so I can somewhat tank through using the
Immunity and the AoE prone of Avalance. I can somewhat deal AoE
damge with Spinning Strike, but recently I can't use Punishing Charge
cause I need Restoring Strike to actually survive. Not speaking of
the fact that the add groups are now very small and most of the foes
have actually high quality with CC immunity or encounters that make them
immune. Speaking of the immunity - the Guardian Fighter got continuesly
buffs to his Shield Block Ability making him able to block for example the
backpush of the now so common appearing dragons. We GWFs get
pushed around, thrown around and kicked around by nearly everything.
We face GWF model enemies that use Spinning Strike themselves and
we can't cast encounters cause their Spinning Strike pushes us back.
When I do the now so common boss fights against a dragon even though I
use Threatening Rush I cannot hold the aggro! I have 27k Hit Points and over
35% Damage Reduction and get one shot by not even Elite Mobs! I know
the new campaigns, gear and so on make characters stronger and stronger
but this is frustrating.
I don't really wanna rant here! This is not to be taken offensive in any way.
I want changes to the better of the game, I want balance and not an
overpowered GWF again!
The new PvE mechanics counter play me. The other classes offer more
utility, more damage or more tank capabilities. The Great Weapon
Fighter playstyle is destroyed and most important the feeling of the class
is lost.
I have to question here if a balance between PvE and PvP is needed.
If PvP is that important in this game and if it is possible to balance those
gamemodes. I like my Dungeons&Dragons, even if people say Dailies&CNfarm
those days the backbone, the concept of the game doesnt seem to get
the focus I expected.
This is my insight on the things, I don't hate on anything.
My point here is that I am Great Weapon Fighter and I feel like a wet noodle.
The Character, the feeling of being a GWF in this game is lost for me.
My character is nearly "maxed" in gear (lacking legendary rank on artifact equipment)
and I can't get things done in this game. I don't feel like I positivly contribute to the
group in a dungeon/skirmish. I don't feel like im nearly as strong as other classes
with equivalent gear.
Im kind of a perfectionist and focused on the stats and so on.. but for the
first time in Neverwinter (after 17 months) I feel like I don't play a Dungeons&Dragons
Class.
PS: I know the focus is now on DC and TR and making them viable. But with buffs to those classes GWF might be the new "TR in PvE".
PPS: I welcome any kind of constructive comment and would LOVE to hear from an official!!!
Post edited by blackyluke on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
There are many metrics for a good player, looking at paingiver chart is but one of many facets in the brilliant diamond that a good player is. Apologies if I misread you but it almost seems like you made your character too offensively focused to make up for any perceived DPS lost in Module 4 that you are now having issues with surviability. I'm not singling you as an example at all, but since Mod 2 players (GWF or non GWFs alike) expect high damage numbers from GWF and nothing more. A lot of the module 4 changes were to specifically counter that mentality- to make GWF a more tactical class, as ironic as that may sound to some. You've already picked up on the 'dancy playstyle' which is pretty much right on the money.
When I run with a GWF I don't look at where his hands are. I look at where his feet is because the difference in a great GWF is all in the footwork. I look at when, for how long he sprints, where he chooses to fight and bunch adds, where he chooses to stand in proximity to the party, which mobs he aggros, which one he tanks and which ones he leaves for the party. I look at what he slots, and when he uses his encounters depending on the situation, how he deals with red and incoming damage. If I'm playing with a good GWF as a DC I basically don't need to watch anyone elses' HP or dance in red because he already takes care of it all. Tanking and dealing aggro doesn't always mean stand in red and spam at wills. It's actually knowing which red you can take to build unstoppable, which you should walk out of, which you should sprint slightly to reduce effect but still take and which you have to just avoid. Only after that I may glance at his damage relative to the party.
I have ran many content with GWF of varying abilities from those still getting T2 to fully decked out one-man-army on different classes since Mod 4 and honestly I have never felt let down by the ones who know what they are doing. I have partied with GWFs with good but not exceptional gear solo the skirmish boss all the way from 70 to zero % after we wipe. Others gain and keep threat and use their interrupts at the right times to cancel those annoying attacks you mention to keep the rest of the party safe. You may need to reconsider your specific loadout and playstyle for different situations. You've obviously had a lot of experience with the class and I'm not teaching you how to play, but the specific problems you mentioned do have solutions. If that does mean changing encounters loadouts then change encounter loadouts.
I have been running all my classes through ToD and although my GWF is among the least geared of them all she is among the easiest to run through the dungeons and dragon fights, and I do know how to play all my classes. The real enemy of a GWF is lag or high ping. If that is an issue you definitely need a more defensive build to counter the defensive issues you mentioned.
In summary, I agree Module 4 present some new and unique, sometimes annoying features and gameplay mechanics, but it is in that process that players are learning more about the potential and flexibility of their classes. GWF contribute many other things to a party than just damage. Never take being 2nd or 3rd on paingiver charts a failure if you're doing all of the other aggro-management things right. Like every other class, the most important things you do for the party are the ones never discernible from the charts alone.
Guild and guide info
Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
SW, CW, SW, CW throw in one GF.. good to go.
They went slightly overboard on the PVE side of the fence, mod 3 GWF was much better attuned to the current game then mod 4. They shouldve just released the SW , fixed roar and kept the rest.
If they keep this current gwf, I would at the very minimal, that come and get it needs its area of effect to be doubled, so it can be a effective in something.. then again a SW doesnt really care about keeping mobs together after initial burst.. just slot Dread Theft and run in circles anyways.
I was hoping the change to marking enemies would help, but I see very little difference. As a Destroyer I can't really reliably mark things (except with Daring Shout, but that mark doesn't seem to affect threat?) and even if I do get the agro the nukers get it back quickly.
Yeah, I'm having the same problem too. Whenever I'm going through my dailies the mob always goes after my poor healer companion. Doesn't even matter that I take 3/4ths of their HP and that they're marked, they still go after the **** healer. GWF could really use something like increased threat generation on physical hits. Not as much as to out-threat actual tanks but at least enough to stay above ranged classes and healers in that regard.
I think you kinda missunderstood what I said. Im not at all a player that only
cares about being on top of the Paingiver Chart.
The thing is that in the new module the fancy footwork you explained deeper
than I did, is not working at all! Compared to other GWFs: Yes im more offensive
but I do have a much higher level of gear. After analyzing the data I gathered
over the last month and doing a lot
of testing on the preview server and on live I realized if I build in a way were
I can take tanking and play like GWF was played before I need to build around
10k HP more up to 37K and stack higher Defense ( even though the diminishing
returns make this stat really worthless for a GWF) also stacking Lifesteal
effectively is hard for a GWF. So I loose a lot of damage ending up as a
inferior damage dealer as before, not to forget I can't compete with the other
DPS classes with the same gear level at the moment. And if I would build that way
how am I more usefull than a GF? Why wouldn't somebody pick a CW that can pull
and just use Oppressive Force/Stealtime/Icy Terrain and doesn't need to tank?
Is I mentioned when I play with HRs that are tankier than I am deal more damage
and bring buffs to the party, were do I stand as GWF?
I explained that the damage dealing is the pretty much only way to play GWF now.
Surviving though decision making and positioning is a no brainer for me.
When you talk about a GWF soloing the Skirmish Boss from 70% to 0%
that is not at all surpising the Skirmish Boss of Shores of Tuern has only 3
special attacks which he throws out in a slow paste rotation.
I think a fresh lvl 60 with blue gear can solo that boss if he is singled out.
all you do is walk left and right with the same repetitive timing. Bosses never were
a problem for a GWF. And the old content isnt either. I think a GWF with my gear level
can solo every T1 dungeon. Its about the new design of the adds and their group size and
quality and about the other classes and their synergy. As @icyclass said actually
keeping aggro is not possible for me! I can run in as first throw down a Frontline Surge and
Wicked Strikes the adds will depending on the positioning of my group:
1. Charge at me after the CC ends, their combined burst kills me.
2. Charge at my CW/HR/SW.
If you talk about Loadout Switches, the number of valuable abilities is small.
I tried different setups as I explained things aren't bearable anymore.
Okay I can play with Punishing Strike again along with Mighty Leap and Restoring Strike.
Maximize my AP gain and spam as much Avalance of Steel as possible, but that is just
idiotic! That is needed to fullfill what sidesteps and Unstoppable did before. Not to mention
that you then again don't bring noticable damage to the party.
I want you to understand that I am well aware of
"Like every other class, the most important things you do for the party are the ones never discernible from the charts alone."
When I ran CN in M3 and the CWs with r7s deals 10 million damage on the Paingiver Chart,
I knew I did my job well and I'm happy with it! For example gathering enemies together
to make your groups AoE more effective boosts damage too, but your cant really do that
if you have mostly Standard and Elite units up to Solo units in very small groups your new
nerfed and pretty weak Frontline Surge doesnt do the trick.
(Btw I used to score 50-80k on FLS crits, now I never got over 35k in any situation. Doesn't
sound like a ~30% damage cut as stated...)
For me those charts don't count. I messure things on time! How fast does our group do this run, that boss
or the whole dungeon. Clear Time, thats what its about.
Module 4, so I realized im a - for my group.
I am pretty sure that the class suffered another "nerf" or at least one "delay" with your multiplicative damage bonus.What seems strange is that not everyone seems to be having the same pattern ...
Our mobility also helps. Yesterday i soloed the skirmish boss after wipe.
Can still be useful in pve imho. Could use a aoe DPS boost btw.
Mod3 GWFs running ahead of the group were a sore pain- in-the-**** for everybody except CWs. They aggroed everything on their way and if you couldn't run as fast as they could you found yourself surrounded by angry mobs and with no tank nearby you got killed in a matter of moments. I guess you now start to understand what being squishy is (and you still have unstoppable, imagine those who don't have it). By the way they spoiled the fun of everybody else by doing all the job (CWs being the exception once again).
Destroyer GWFS are not tanks. They should not be able to draw aggro and tank. That's the job of GFs and Sentinels. Leave it to them.
You should not be able to resist/outheal all damage. There are DCs and now Temptation Warlocks, rely on them and let them be part of the fun. Your role is that of a mobile fighter that should be all over the place in the fight, disturbing enemies and dealing damage in the same range of other DPS focused PCs like HRs or Fury SWs (once Tyrannical Threat is correctly split).
I understand that CWs are still in a league of their own unfortunately....
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Then destroyers should have base DPS on par with other DPS classes/ builds. And currently, They don't. The best pve DPS gwfs already tested that.
A squishy DPS gwf should deal as much DPS as a DPS SW cause it's his primary role. And currently They don't, according to pandapaul and other bis pve gwfs.
But i understand that from a non-gwf player point of view everything is OK.
If you met gwfs running ahead leaving a trail of angry mobs you were either in a speedrun to campfire or you met really bad gwfs...
A DPS SW should do more damage than a GWF, not much (remember TT has not been fixed yet so any comparison is moot ATM) but a little more yes, as a Fury Warlock only brings damage to the table, while a Destroyer brings some more control ability and some more tankiness too (GWFs still have Unstoppable, a Fury Warlock hasn't). Same for the Archer Ranger who brings only DPS.
You had all in Mod3 and that wasn't fair to others, now you're more in line. A few adjustments may be needed but I think that all classes in PvE except the wizard are close to the mark now.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
GWF has unstoppable and SW has range. One plays in melee range and often has to tank red dots or adds, the other can kite around, do dps at the same time and never get hit. And please, GWF has no control powers at all. At least, not aoe ones and definitely not on destroyer build. Come and Get It is probably the only control encounter and it does literally 0 damage on destroyer build.
I agree with this (I play a fair amount on my GWF) but I also agree with the original poster to some extent. The trouble is that optimal groups don't want a jack-of-all-trades. If you want a fast clear, you maximise your damage output. In this circumstance you want the best tank that can stay alive, and then damage - especially with the Temptation Warlocks in the picture. This is what Castle Never runs were about, when they used GWFs. The GWF would tank for long enough for the 4 CWs to kill everything. Transplanted into Module 4 this composition is different.
So on the one hand, GWFs having more survivability and utility than a pure DPS should be balanced with them doing less DPS. On the other hand, that then makes them sub-optimal choices compared to a pure DPS and therefore there's no real reason to take them in PVE - it's the kind of issue that hits MMOs a lot, there are too many classes (let alone specs) for all of them to serve any real purpose. Adding a new class is an MMO maker's crutch - it gives people a reason to repeat content instead of someone having to create new content.
Having said that the disparity isn't so bad that GWFs will be booted from parties. Possibly an issue for solo queues if you get unlucky. If there was challenging PVE content in the game this would be a far bigger issue than it is now, where for my money epic Dread Vault is still the toughest thing to clear, and that's been around since launch.
See I think that sort of opinion just highlights that some people really don't know the GWF class too well. Firstly a dps destroyer GWF is not tanky at all.. and in epic LOL will still easily be 1 shotted most of the time. The reason that unstoppable is needed is because GWF is in melee range constantly and has far more Aoe and direct damage attacks that they need to worry about compared to a SW that can fight at range.. Unstoppable is a necessity to be able to play a melee class like GWF. a dps destroyer sacrificing almost all its tank and CC to deal dps.... So I Don't think saying "SW should have more aoe dps" is fair at all.. Having range Aoe dps is a major advantage the SW and CW have already in Pve.
And again saying GWFs are more in line now? I don't understand this opinion either
CW has far superior dps and CC
SW can do 200%+ more aoe dps than a GWF
GF can tank far better than GWF and have party buffs
that's for Pve.. In the current meta you have 3 better party choices than a GWF. So really GWF may only be inline with DC/TR/HR and behind the rest.. In fact that not in line at all.. that's quite obviously behind the line...
Now talk PVP.. yes there are some great GWFs still.. but in order for a GWF to be good at pve they must outgear/out skill the opposition.. again lets look at the classes that have viable builds where Gear/Skill isn't as important to be competitive
CW/HR/TR/GF
Those classes all provide far more dangerous builds than a GWF.. so again here GWF is firmly behind the line again
Now My Pve GWF does do amazing Dps.. but heck im stacking like 100M AD worth of gear.. If I switched the gear to a SW/CW then I would have far more dps/impact than the GWF could ever hope to have
You will see as time goes on in this mod how things will change.. GWF still lives on its reputation of being very good for Pve from mod 2/3.. the longer this mod goes on the less demand there will be for GWFs in party
The problem isn't with GWF's survivability.
Its the strength of the new stuff, they will one-shot anyone. My guardian has died from 1 hit when i do not raise my shield from some attacks.
If you want to survive some of those reds you would need 40k+ HP. Which im guessing you do not have. so you need to be careful like everyone else. Even a MOD3 GWF would die in 1 hit from these reds out of unstoppable.
I like the new stuff, because it adds some usefulness to clerics and GF. If they made sentinels able to hold agro, then you would be able to tank like that (though those attacks will still one-shot you out of unstoppable)
DPS wise, they should think about increasing the aoe encounters of GWFs. their at-wills are fine i think (maybe a+10% across them) but those encounters have such low damage ranges.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Release new and newer stuff in ZEN shop? More OP stuff? Yea, but many people are geared enough, so how to squeeze more money from them? Convince them to start a new class, Hunter Ranger or Scourge Warlock maybe. But how?
GWF was very VERY popular class in past and players spent a lot of money to gear this beast up. And geared players wont spend much money. So what about to "balance" this class? Players were already crying about OP GWF in PvP, so now is the time. Nerf there and there, call it balance and also dont forget to boost HR and SW.
First of all, after some time in this game i thought that PWE/Cryptic employees are just dumb workers without any passion for the game. I was wrong in one thing - they are NOT dumb. They are smart and know pretty perfectly what are they doing. Money must flow. Is your GWF weak or better say not comparable to other classes? Do you have top gear with +10´s or just +7´s and still weak or useless for the party? Well player, you can choose different class (HR, SW maybe or even old class CW) and start spending your money again. You can buy campaign unlocks, you can buy refine stuff, hell we even released artifact class gear for all those who want to spend their money (or must).
Call it just conspiracy theory or believe it, it is on you. Every game is released not for gamers fun but at first for any company profit. And if they cant convince you, they will force you in the end. And todays state of GWF class in this game is perfect example of how are they doing it
moreover, by "projection" of combat designer, the gwf is an "off tank". sentinel is "expert" in this department. ma che <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is this? (italian hand) what is this "irreplaceable" function?
remember: gwf (destroyer/instigator) suffered a nerf in their resistance under the argument of choice.
2 - no sense makes say "cw is out of line." Cw was revised. "gwf too".
3 - the idea is to take a break in the game's protagonist and try new airs? ok, I'm tired of dps races. could have done with that powerfull challange shared the bonus with the party. or that the battle fury shared 100% damage to the party. The first case = 15%. the second "20%". is the average of our old studant of sword, conditional on encounters slots + feets.
one party with a gwf / gf / dc would be excellent for designing ranger or sw and not exclude the "Almighty" cw. maybe he was the most improved.
nahh, old unstoppable would be enough, ive tested a bit as sent, the problem is that you dont deal enough damage to heal up fast enough as sent and the more hp you have the more damage you have to take to get unstoppable
dps gwf has some 25k hp, with unstoppable gwf has max dr so he should take 125k hit to 1shot, now gwf has 60% dr with unstoppable, so now it takes a bit over 60k dmg to 1shot gwf
I said out of unstoppable. which is what people do in older content/used to do, in order to get determination. You cannot do that anymore without dying.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
and to answer ( in a funny way) to this thread... if u are unhappy with your gwf
pick this legendary weapon : golden dragon wrath
Decrease Total damage resistance to the Great weapon fighter by -3%. Applied after each swing of wicked strike.Stacks up to 3 times.
so it will reduce your damage resistance against foes, it will stack for 3 times :d HF playn in a competitive mode
not true 200k ice knifes from cw are not umcommon and I did a party with a SW the other day that critted for 500K.. 220k doesn't sound so good then lol
your math is waaay off!
Then again I said that this Skirmish boss is nowhere a problem for anybody and bosses are the easiest encounters in the game!
Daring should is a complete waste of an encounter the buff is way to short to even put out one rotation and even though the devs said
that aggro got reworked if your doing your dailies ill give you 10 million AD if you can get aggro as GWF if there are 10+ people on the dragon! No Threatening Rush, no Daring Shout or anything else gives a Destroyer Aggro from Bosses.
We still have Unstoppable! Nice...soo you know what Unstoppable does?
As I explained in my post there are several CCs that Unstoppable funnily doesnt ignore. It does apart from breaking slows and stuns only one thing! Boost DPS - with the feat your encounters deal 10% more dmg and your at-wills swing faster. Apart from that DC, CW, HR and TR got full immunity from their Spacebar.... Unstoppable doesnt mean you can tank anything at all!
How you define Destroyer GWFs is what a Trickster Rogue does and that is completely different!
I don't want any company bashing in this thread! This is meant to be a constructive discussion, I do understand and somewhat support your opinion but Cryptic DID listen to the community in the past.
I think you didnt read through what you posted! Golden Dragon Wrath gives you 9% resistance ignored. Basically 9% Armor Penetration but its a debuff so it goes below 0 Defense.
By the way its not hard to put out huge blows if you feat IBS and a lot of classes can hit huge critical strikes with the help of DC and GF, however while buffed their substained DPS will still be higher than the damage of the GWF over the time...
As I explained multiple times those huge hits only appear on Solo or Boss Creatures and they get debuffed by the whole party!
Bosses are not a problem for the GWF, apart from the lack of aggro control (still after "Mark" should work properly now)
Panda is right other classes can either do more damage on bosses over time or even hit harder on single hits but that is not the point of this thread. Talking about "I can crit for 150k" seems to me like stupidity.
I rather question why the HR elites can hit me for 30k+ with over 120k raw damage!
PS: Ill add some screenshots soon!
The only comment I'm going to post in this thread: Daring Shout isn't a waste, you can keep it 100% uptime meaning that the buff will be always up unless you are doing something wrong and thanks to the rework is a better skill and when you slot it your single target DPS will be much higher than using another offensive encounter, useful not only for you but the whole party.
/10char