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Change is Coming

samothrace22samothrace22 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
edited October 2014 in The Thieves' Den
Aug 5
Chris Meyer
@CrypticGMC
For those who are following along there are ALSO some really awesome Rogue changes in the works. That's right. Making your feats cool. Woo!

And.... TODAY!
Chris Meyer ‏@CrypticGMC 8h
So Clerics and Rogues have had a lot of overhauls in the last month. I am super excited for the reveals on them. 20ish more days!

https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/509398160418955264

Sounds like next month to me :D



Thanks angrysprite: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?755471-Thank-the-Gods-Requital-for-Clerics-Soon
────────────────────────────
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
────────────────────────────
Post edited by Unknown User on
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    crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well maybe someone knows and understand but why all those reworks? Like divine mode this time and many others before. If they didn't make op class in the first place they would not have to rework other classes after. Seriously it is not efficient to make class op and then work few patches by reworking others so it will be balanced. What infact should be done from begun of game and in the future is working by this way.
    -GWF should have never been created so op in mod 2
    -TR should have never been nerfed in pve as it was. That is the biggest mistake of this game so far, to drive class into such a uselessness
    -HR should have never been created as op in mod 3+
    -CW should have never been changed in mod 4 as it was
    -GF is with too op damage in this mod, this is not balance
    If these things one after other would have been done this way there would not be reason to rework classes now and in future. I really hope devs will think how to make their work more effective.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I can't wait to know what changes will it bring, let's hope we can be relevant in PVE again.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    dakburdakbur Member Posts: 152 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Sounds like the goal will be first week in October for test server.

    I'm really excited about these changes too, I can't wait to see what kind of overhaul they have in mind. I just hope it isn't tinkering.
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    vteasyvteasy Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    looked through some of his posts, looks from them like they are just re-working our feats. Which don't get me wrong is needed, but I was hoping they would take a look at our powers and ways ability effected IE arm pen
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    It's too soon to tell anyway, we have to wait till they give more info or for any changes to hit the preview server.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    samothrace22samothrace22 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I was hoping the TR class advocate would be in for some pointers before the re-work too but still time
    ────────────────────────────
    SAMOTHRACE
    Trickster Rogue
    ────────────────────────────
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    suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Feats, don't fail me now!
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    chestnut13chestnut13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Feats, don't fail me now!

    You can be my Dixie chicken ....
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    mxtimemxtime Member Posts: 316 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    reiwulf wrote: »
    I can't wait to know what changes will it bring, let's hope we can be relevant in PVE again.

    whats it up to u
    u play legit channel and have np what so ever
    tr is support class we dont need another cw,gwf,sw in the group just a bit help on the side
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    kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    mxtime wrote: »
    whats it up to u
    u play legit channel and have np what so ever
    tr is support class we dont need another cw,gwf,sw in the group just a bit help on the side

    Talk about raving lunacy...

    It used to make sense in at least some perverted way when you were targeting and hounding only myself and some other people on the forums who didn't agree with any of your shi*down smack talking, since obviously you can't stand some non pre-made casual players talking about PvP....

    ...but now you're just barking at anybody, anyone.

    rei's been a long time member of the Thieve's Den forums, he's not even talked about PvP nor offended any premade dipshi* in any manner and he certainly doesn't need that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from you. He doesn't even talk much or write long stuff and what you're doing is totally uncalled for.

    And yet, you just seem to go about attacking and fouling everyone you see.

    What gives? Is it your monthly period or something?
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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    suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    chestnut13 wrote: »
    You can be my Dixie chicken ....

    What! Someone else actually knows them.
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    samothrace22samothrace22 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    seamus rowe ‏@seamus351 Sep 13
    @CrypticGMC What kind of changes for TR's mod 5? Will we finally not be insta kicked from pve groups?


    Chris Meyer
    @CrypticGMC
    @seamus351 @CrypticGMC tl; dr. All new feat trees reworked to be much more cohesive towards their goals. And power damage tweaks.


    https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/510995274055962624
    ────────────────────────────
    SAMOTHRACE
    Trickster Rogue
    ────────────────────────────
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    adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    When looking at the leaderboard on page 1 I see all classes present besides clerics. I dont understand why there is always so much QQ about TRs being 'weak'.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
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    crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    TR with same gear has no chance against other class skilled to kill them. That is because TR has no dmg, no cc, no defence, no healing, no hp. Ranking is not about which class is good. It is about win/loose and against who. TR can survive any class that's why it will always be part of any strong group so they will be high in ranking anyway. That won't change fact TR won't kill anyone solo if they have glyphs and strong gear. Example is that when u hit for example HR with daily and kill him he revive with soul stun u forever and heal to full hp in few seconds and there is absolutely nothing u can do so no sense for TR trying to kill if sb is that op.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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    adernathadernath Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    TR with same gear has no chance against other class skilled to kill them. That is because TR has no dmg, no cc, no defence, no healing, no hp. Ranking is not about which class is good. It is about win/loose and against who. TR can survive any class that's why it will always be part of any strong group so they will be high in ranking anyway. That won't change fact TR won't kill anyone solo if they have glyphs and strong gear. Example is that when u hit for example HR with daily and kill him he revive with soul stun u forever and heal to full hp in few seconds and there is absolutely nothing u can do so no sense for TR trying to kill if sb is that op.

    I claim that those TRs on page 1 play well enough to be there. With your own words: they have a good win/lose ratio, ergo they have a good performance. TRs have enough dps to kill people if they are geared. Of course if you only spam knifes in stealth and have no proper gear you wont scratch anyone. I have seen good TRs who use abilities and different at-wills and hit very hard and are strong in wearing your hp down, while many TRs who only use knifespam are cannonfodder.

    What do you think will happen with those players if you buff TRs again? They are already on page 1, what do you want more? A buff of certain things must come along with a nerf of other things they are using.
    Suggestions to improve NW:
    - Dualspec
    - Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
    - Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
    - Armory
    - make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
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    kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    adernath wrote: »
    What do you think will happen with those players if you buff TRs again? They are already on page 1, what do you want more? A buff of certain things must come along with a nerf of other things they are using.

    Hence, get rid of whatever the ability to keep refreshing stealth multiple times -- and then buff every other aspect of the TR -- base damage, DoTs/bleeds, movement speed, utilities, active defense powers, CCs ... EVERYTHING, the "Whole Package" -- that was left in a miserable state and justified for it on the grounds that us TRs already had OP "attack from stealth, unlike other games" trait.

    Something I've been arguing for ages.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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    naicalusnaicalus Member Posts: 645 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Arguing that PvP TRs being on page 1 means there's no problem with the class is both short-sided and ludicrous.

    A very few PvP TRs have the gear level necessary to break from the permastealth build dictated by the current state of the class. Most don't, and the useful strategy for PvP unless you don't care in most situations is to go semiperma even if you aren't a perma build. On the rare occasions I bother to participate in some form of PvP, generally GG or an IWD BI Dom, I slap on a Profound set and a couple of regen rings and load my bar with at least Shadow Strike, if not Shadow Strike and Bait and Switch. I'm not running full BIS everything, so this is generally the best strategy for me since I'm PvE built - If I'm seen, my 25k HP is ripped through rather quickly by any class who can afford to actually spec for damage in PvP. That leaves semi-perma, which I don't really enjoy, but.

    So a lot of the TRs running around are permastealthing because it's about the only thing they can do. And hey, you can hold down a node if nobody can see you, great. That helps your team win. So you contribute, but yeah, you're probably not on the front lines as much. This is as boring and same-y as the PvE meta.

    Ah yes, PvE. The TR's real problem point. We have no damage, no defenses, ItC isn't up nearly as much as you really need it to be in dungeons full of red circles and using it from stealth keeps you from using stealthed Lashing Blade, you're not getting your Flurry bleed stacks built up and maintained while you're using your two dodge rolls to avoid getting splatted. I disagree mightily with Kweassa about TR neeing to be a CC-heavy class since that's never been what the Rogue has been about in any edition of D&D ever, but it's true we have basically no CC, just a couple of dazes.

    Sure, you can perform OK, with enough GS and experience. But the fact is, while we still do decentish single target damage if geared enough, we're also not doing enough to justify ourselves. Dungeon design can be argued to be against us, but we didn't have as much issue in Beta or even up through Mod 1. We hadn't been fully gutted yet then, and for a brief while people were OK with more than one TR in a party because we were great for those annoying big adds and the bosses.

    The problem is, besides all the damage nerfs, the buffs to everyone else(GWF was once shunned as being useless. Then they got buffed into godhood for a while and are still good, CW is still a ludicrous monster), and the simple fact of GS inflation - The content is no longer challenging. You don't need a TR to take down the big thing anymore; not only is he no longer as good at it as he used to be, but your CW stacking is going to be more than capable of destroying the content you've more than doubled the GS requirement for.

    It's not even that TR doesn't have a role, we do, we're just so nerfed we can't do it well anymore and it's not *needed* anymore because they don't have content hard enough to need it. Four modules worth of boons, hell, I have 16k GS now with Rank 7s with 3 purple artis, not even legendary, one of those is only L60, but I don't even need maxed artis and rank 10s to hit a GS that was once ludicrously high and something you thought you'd never reach or need to reach.

    Well, guess what, you still don't 'need' to reach it. You can, in fact, clear ToS/SP/etc with a 9k GS party. It's harder and you need tactics beyond 'throw more CWs at it', but yep, you can do it.

    But people are easily bored and have that 'gogogogogogo' mindset. Legit isn't a solution. I see TRs in there all the time advertising throughout the entire DD hour without a party taking them while CWs, GWFs, HRs, SWs, even GFs get taken left and right. There's at least one elitist player in Legit who won't take a TR if there's already one in the party even as they ask for more 'DPS'. Funny, last I looked TR was supposed to be a DPS class. (Which is codswallop, I've been in plenty of multi-TR parties who had 0 issues, but it's a good example of the kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mindset that affects even Legit.)

    So yes, TRs do have a problem. Especially in PvE. Why take a TR when you can take... Any other class that isn't a DC? (I've even seen requests in legit for specifically a healer SW, speaking of DCs. For all the high-minded talk of not caring about GS/class, there's a **** lot of caring about it there.)
    Largely inactive, playing Skyforge as Nai Calus.
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I can't wait to see what the devs are planning for TRs, I might be too optimistic, but I think good things will come to us.
    What I want is for the TR to be a FUN class to play.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    edit: double post sorry
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Oh yeah, I should have been more specific. I want the TR to be a fun class, while actually doing good damage XD
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    samothrace22samothrace22 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    Hence, get rid of whatever the ability to keep refreshing stealth multiple times -- and then buff every other aspect of the TR -- base damage, DoTs/bleeds, movement speed, utilities, active defense powers, CCs ... EVERYTHING, the "Whole Package" -- that was left in a miserable state and justified for it on the grounds that us TRs already had OP "attack from stealth, unlike other games" trait.

    Something I've been arguing for ages.

    This sounds wonderful
    ────────────────────────────
    SAMOTHRACE
    Trickster Rogue
    ────────────────────────────
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    showmelightsshowmelights Member Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I asked GentlemanCrush again on twitter about when will we have changes announced and he replied
    Latest I had heard was aiming for next week. But no definitive timeline yet.

    https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/514223106907324416

    So I guess we'll have to wait a little bit more. I'm nervous about this.
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    crixus8000crixus8000 Member Posts: 1,205 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Good luck to all you rogues and clerics, I hope you get the changes you wanted :)
    Crixus - PVP GF
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    veshorokveshorok Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 127 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    i do really hope i can return to my pve tr - my very first character in Neverwinter..
    anyway best of luck to the rogue community and cool buffs from the dev team =)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Only issue is making them work for PVE without breaking them for pvp, which you CANNOT simply give em damage buffs. They need a total rework of almost everything about them.

    For DCs, give em destroyer/archery style OP feats. Sad how ONE feat from any of their trees are almost superior to everything in the DCs paragon feats as a whole.
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    izidiusizidius Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 40
    edited September 2014
    ghoulz66 wrote: »
    Only issue is making them work for PVE without breaking them for pvp, which you CANNOT simply give em damage buffs. They need a total rework of almost everything about them.

    For DCs, give em destroyer/archery style OP feats. Sad how ONE feat from any of their trees are almost superior to everything in the DCs paragon feats as a whole.

    Agreed, the TR needs a complete overhaul.
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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Honestly, I think they dug a hole they can't crawl out of. I can't see them fixing TRs without redoing their encounters and mechanics from scratch.
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    twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    crixus8000 wrote: »
    Good luck to all you rogues and clerics, I hope you get the changes you wanted :)
    There's a first time for everything, I guess.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
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    balufunkebalufunke Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    O.K the TR might need some changes but please don´t create another boring AOE class.
    I know most of the time there are AOE fights but that´s why the TR is so unique and fun to play because of his single target abilities in combination with all the in and out strategies.
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