I agree with you guys on the Red Dragon Glyphs...they can't be discounted.
However, I can't imagine the difference in damage done was 50 million to 24 million. Unless you're wiping multiple times on the Draco, no one's doing 50 million damage in CN.
Well, using a full set of corrupted BI set/and corrupted neck/ring/belt set, I ran with my regular mates. 4 manned it with 2 SW about 15K - 16K each and GF using IF/KV, we ran full CN, no skipping and killing everything on path, no wipes to include draco. End DPS for me was 54M and the closest SW was at 26M and the other around 20M. So yeah, it's possible to hit those number without wiping. Ofc I have blue/red on my overload slots as well.
Well, using a full set of corrupted BI set/and corrupted neck/ring/belt set, I ran with my regular mates. 4 manned it with 2 SW about 15K - 16K each and GF using IF/KV, we ran full CN, no skipping and killing everything on path, no wipes to include draco. End DPS for me was 54M and the closest SW was at 26M and the other around 20M. So yeah, it's possible to hit those number without wiping. Ofc I have blue/red on my overload slots as well.
Right. It's special circumstances.
But in a normal, 5 man run, you're not going to obtain those sorts of damage numbers in a full clear with no wipes. That's what I was getting at.
If you're going to measure these kinds of things, it has to be a consistent, default scenario.
You can't say something is working a certain way if you tested it in a non-normal scenario.
I could say Red Dragon glyphs are crazy over powered because I did 510 million damage in CN with them*
*solo clear with 43 wipes on the draco...took 11 hours.
**For example...I'm not spending 11 hours in CN
yeah ofc it was special scenarios, the mobs to kill is basiaclly the same always if u dont wipe so its usually just a matter of how it is distribuuted between members of the group, in these cases it was runs with fewer people.
red glyphs obviously are not gona double dps done in a standard run with a balanced group where the glyph user cant hog up all that extra dps, but still these scenarios sort of show that he should come out ahead of the rest with meaningfull margin.
I might do a CN later today and hope to remember to log.
OK so as promised, I logged a full CN duo run. Sacrificed some precious 600 BI and 30 minutes of Red Glyph and used my Purified set. It puts me at about 8200-ish Power. Used Shard only at draco, for some more CC. If you want to know any other details, ask here. If you wonder why Purified, well, it's a duo (me and a GWF friend), and I am primarily a PvP player (on hiatus now cuz glyphs, GFs etc.) so I am not gonna buy Cleaving rings/other artifacts etc. to retool my Corrupted set for PvE. So Purified it is, and you can see what it does in the second image with the heals.
11% added dps is quite nice but i thought it would be more.... its like 7-8% on my HR.
but Its curious to see that its adding more dmg than OF is, well bascially all the procs are dealing more dmg than the skills XD
and yet people still dont believe the glyphs are soo good for pve, maybe this will open some eyes.
I noticed today that if I am running with another CW that is MOF (I am storm), my aspect of flames can be turned into rimfire smolder damage. Am I seeing things? Im not running act but saw a lot of nice rimfire damage after every 600 aspect of flames proc from my red glyphs in my in game log.
By the way, I was an HV bigot...now, until the glyphs are nerfed...I am convinced that Red Glyphs are a VERY viable and competitive option to HV.
11% added dps is quite nice but i thought it would be more.... its like 7-8% on my HR.
but Its curious to see that its adding more dmg than OF is, well bascially all the procs are dealing more dmg than the skills XD
and yet people still dont believe the glyphs are soo good for pve, maybe this will open some eyes.
Yes, the whole run. I lost no more than 30 mins, so 2 Greater Reds will last you about 4 CNs in Duo at least.
I spammed a lot of OF too, which has a great synergy with the Reds, filling the screen with procs, and I have used a legendary DC arti quite often.
As for the damage the actual CW encounters/dailies do - it is MORE than PATHETIC. We are reduced to a proc class, take that away and we are DONE for, both PvP and PvE, with things staying as they are. And the numbers you see there:
- 9K Shard crits
- 23K Sudden Storm
- 21K OF
Are numbers from a quite geared, 18.5K CW, with more than 8K Power. I would hit harder with my HV of course, as it puts me at 9500 Power and it debuffs as well, but not by a significant margin. The only things I miss from a full PvE build are my Int, which is at 26 only with Int belt (a PvE CW could invest fully in 30+ Int or so), a few feats such as the Severe Reaction one (which is great help at draco btw) and some survivability boons geared towards PvP. I don't think that they account for more than 15% DPS loss overall.
I might try to do a HV run soon as well and post results. Thing is, I don't want to change my gear to make HV work (I have too little LS with it), because I cannot kill draco solo with HV and 3% LS. Duo might work though, if I pot up But I will log the rest of the CN run.
Just for comparison sake, I am posting a HV run. Some details:
- 2 CW run, so I do less damage overall than previous run where I ran with a PvP spec GWF, because the other CW is pushing nice numbers as well
- HV set used all CN; I tried draco once in it, we wiped, impossible to solo because not enough LS. Might put some LS kits on the HV set, dunno. I swapped to Purified (just normal overloads) the 2nd time so we can get it over with.
- numbers are somewhat higher, which is to be expected from more Power and debuff; percentages are roughly the same, encounters barely tickle, Storm Spell and the other procs are carrying the load. CW in a very bad position IMO PvE/DPS wise. These things take no skill to land and I can see them nerfed to the ground sometime soon.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
I can't understand how you have such low numbers. I have less GS, don't have a P.Vorpal, i'm using the Draconic set and i'm still learning how to properly play a MoF CW, yet i see much higher numbers in ACT. I also find the effectiveness very low considering you had at least 1 HV CW in your party. Not enough armor pen?
Here's an ACT log of mine from last night. Had a lot more buffs/debuffs, since it's a full party, but also had first timers on the team.
I noticed today that if I am running with another CW that is MOF (I am storm), my aspect of flames can be turned into rimfire smolder damage. Am I seeing things? .
You are right, it's useful to have both CWs in a party for that particular reason (as well as the "fire singularity").
@magiquepurse: Please do multiple runs with the same group or your ACTs will show nothing but a glimpse. Also it's not useful to use wipe-runs as a comparison. Any run above 30 minutes is not significant.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Agreed! People probably don't realise they rarely got any stacks of HV debuff on enemy mobs. The duration of the HV is quie short as well and the only ability that procs the bonus nowadays is Steal Time. I do laugh silently when people jump into a mob group and the first thing they do is an OF...
Most HV wearers would do better with Shadow Weaver, since the buffs lasts long enough for a whole rotation and the soft caps are obtained more easily.
The problem is that the crit on SW isn't that great on spellstorms because EotS makes it inefficient.
That said SW is tailor made for MOF CW. The set bonus is good, the stats are wonderful, it's easy to keep the buff up, but because convention is HV is the best, people don't consider this otherwise great set.
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
I assume "Aspect of flames" on ACT is the red glyphs. It's worth considering because 11% of your DPS is really significant. You would still have to feed it glyphs, i suppose.
I can't understand how you have such low numbers. I have less GS, don't have a P.Vorpal, i'm using the Draconic set and i'm still learning how to properly play a MoF CW, yet i see much higher numbers in ACT.
This is quite simple to answer. Your run seems to be a full 5 man run with multiple classes stacking debuffs. My runs were CW+GWF and CW+CW, where there where no debuffs other than HV. I can't say much about what debuffs a GWF can do but he had a GPF.
Also my spec is PvP thaum. That means:
- no Destructive Wizardry
- no Bitter Cold
- no FPT
- no Malevolent Surge
- no Wizard's Wrath, but 3/3 Focused Wizardy 2/5 Learned Spellcaster
- only 25 Int, 15 Cha (or so)
- halfling
Even in these conditions, I can still solo Draco lol Which says a lot about this game.
@magiquepurse: Please do multiple runs with the same group or your ACTs will show nothing but a glimpse. Also it's not useful to use wipe-runs as a comparison. Any run above 30 minutes is not significant.
These were 2 man runs. People had PvP/mixed spec. I couldn't really duo (even moreso solo) draco with HV set (3% LS) so I had to switch to Purified for more life steal (13%).
The incredibly high damage done by me is not due to wiping (we died only at draco once I think when i tried HV), but due to being just two and me having to pretty much carry the DPS task by myself.
Keep in mind, I don't do this so I can speedrun for AD. I do this because PvP is broken ATM and we stopped playing, and basically we wanna do something together.
I assume "Aspect of flames" on ACT is the red glyphs. It's worth considering because 11% of your DPS is really significant. You would still have to feed it glyphs, i suppose.
Yes that would be the glyphs.
They seem way less significant with a proper 5-man PvE party with many debuffs/buffs and full PvE spec. 3% in the above screenshot.
I'm not trying to prove anything here lol. We're mostly PvPers doing PvE for some AD and out of nothing else to do, as we wouldn't lower ourselves to using Reds or reflect/KV GFs in PvP.
People asked for how Glyphs compare to HV in PvE, so I just tried to provide some info
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Oh yeah man, I just think it's interesting. When i tried the draconic set, i didn't glyph it up and my teammates didn't notice it, but these ACTs says it might be a valid option in some situations, which is by itself interesting.
I am going to try solo draco soon, but i think it must be very difficult, so grats on that.
So the "good" options seem to be
HV - for spellstorms
SW - for MoFs
Draconic with red glyphs.
Obviously you can use them with different specs if the rest of the gear is built properly. It's very interesting. I have a 5% regret i salvaged my draconic set XD
Obviously you can use them with different specs if the rest of the gear is built properly. It's very interesting. I have a 5% regret i salvaged my draconic set XD
I used Purified set by the way, because of its defensive stats and because I cannot be bothered to re-gear for LS with HV. You might wanna take a look at Corrupted as well. Both seems to me better than Draconic, the Corrupted set bonus is actually useful as well.
Using Purified will put a dent in your ArP though, but... coincidentally the Red Glyps solve that very issue.
Downside is that BI gear has to be fed BI, and Glyphs cost AD unless you farming the last skirmish/dungeon a lot.
I ran CN a few times more these days and I gave in though and got a Cleaving ring and LS kits to put on the HV set. I might try to solo draco with HV only, although I suspect it might prove too difficult, squishier and no glyphs proccing sucks.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
I took mod 3 off, so I am still crafting my BI sets. The limiting factor is refining the BI, and since I am playing well everywhere, i don't see the point of spending the rather large amount of AD for another gauntlet.
That said, I will test them when i have them, then update my guide accordingly.
And yeah, HV is a bit squishy. You'd have to gear appropriately, but luckily rings and necks of shielding - which drop in elol - are great items and easy to get.
No 5% more from int and 10% less AoE (shard etc) with a 30% boost on single target (stormspell etc.), so his damage destribution is different from PvE specs. BTW, I use focused wizadry on my CW too, I did no tests, but overall it seemed to be a dmg boost.
The limiting factor is refining the BI, and since I am playing well everywhere, i don't see the point of spending the rather large amount of AD for another gauntlet.
Up to you, but salvaging BI gear gives Black Ice. Just a hint for those in a big hurry.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Comments
Black Dragon wasn't proccing as much as I had gotten used to seeing, that's for sure.
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that has always been there.
its 20 sec duration and 60 sec cd per glyph so if u slot 2, 40 sec duration and 60 sec cd. so basically 66% uptime.
Well, using a full set of corrupted BI set/and corrupted neck/ring/belt set, I ran with my regular mates. 4 manned it with 2 SW about 15K - 16K each and GF using IF/KV, we ran full CN, no skipping and killing everything on path, no wipes to include draco. End DPS for me was 54M and the closest SW was at 26M and the other around 20M. So yeah, it's possible to hit those number without wiping. Ofc I have blue/red on my overload slots as well.
Yes. Unless it was ninjanerfed this week.
Right. It's special circumstances.
But in a normal, 5 man run, you're not going to obtain those sorts of damage numbers in a full clear with no wipes. That's what I was getting at.
If you're going to measure these kinds of things, it has to be a consistent, default scenario.
You can't say something is working a certain way if you tested it in a non-normal scenario.
I could say Red Dragon glyphs are crazy over powered because I did 510 million damage in CN with them*
*solo clear with 43 wipes on the draco...took 11 hours.
**For example...I'm not spending 11 hours in CN
red glyphs obviously are not gona double dps done in a standard run with a balanced group where the glyph user cant hog up all that extra dps, but still these scenarios sort of show that he should come out ahead of the rest with meaningfull margin.
OK so as promised, I logged a full CN duo run. Sacrificed some precious 600 BI and 30 minutes of Red Glyph and used my Purified set. It puts me at about 8200-ish Power. Used Shard only at draco, for some more CC. If you want to know any other details, ask here. If you wonder why Purified, well, it's a duo (me and a GWF friend), and I am primarily a PvP player (on hiatus now cuz glyphs, GFs etc.) so I am not gonna buy Cleaving rings/other artifacts etc. to retool my Corrupted set for PvE. So Purified it is, and you can see what it does in the second image with the heals.
You can draw your own conclusions.
11% added dps is quite nice but i thought it would be more.... its like 7-8% on my HR.
but Its curious to see that its adding more dmg than OF is, well bascially all the procs are dealing more dmg than the skills XD
and yet people still dont believe the glyphs are soo good for pve, maybe this will open some eyes.
By the way, I was an HV bigot...now, until the glyphs are nerfed...I am convinced that Red Glyphs are a VERY viable and competitive option to HV.
Yes, the whole run. I lost no more than 30 mins, so 2 Greater Reds will last you about 4 CNs in Duo at least.
I spammed a lot of OF too, which has a great synergy with the Reds, filling the screen with procs, and I have used a legendary DC arti quite often.
As for the damage the actual CW encounters/dailies do - it is MORE than PATHETIC. We are reduced to a proc class, take that away and we are DONE for, both PvP and PvE, with things staying as they are. And the numbers you see there:
- 9K Shard crits
- 23K Sudden Storm
- 21K OF
Are numbers from a quite geared, 18.5K CW, with more than 8K Power. I would hit harder with my HV of course, as it puts me at 9500 Power and it debuffs as well, but not by a significant margin. The only things I miss from a full PvE build are my Int, which is at 26 only with Int belt (a PvE CW could invest fully in 30+ Int or so), a few feats such as the Severe Reaction one (which is great help at draco btw) and some survivability boons geared towards PvP. I don't think that they account for more than 15% DPS loss overall.
I might try to do a HV run soon as well and post results. Thing is, I don't want to change my gear to make HV work (I have too little LS with it), because I cannot kill draco solo with HV and 3% LS. Duo might work though, if I pot up
- 2 CW run, so I do less damage overall than previous run where I ran with a PvP spec GWF, because the other CW is pushing nice numbers as well
- HV set used all CN; I tried draco once in it, we wiped, impossible to solo because not enough LS. Might put some LS kits on the HV set, dunno. I swapped to Purified (just normal overloads) the 2nd time so we can get it over with.
- numbers are somewhat higher, which is to be expected from more Power and debuff; percentages are roughly the same, encounters barely tickle, Storm Spell and the other procs are carrying the load. CW in a very bad position IMO PvE/DPS wise. These things take no skill to land and I can see them nerfed to the ground sometime soon.
I can't understand how you have such low numbers. I have less GS, don't have a P.Vorpal, i'm using the Draconic set and i'm still learning how to properly play a MoF CW, yet i see much higher numbers in ACT. I also find the effectiveness very low considering you had at least 1 HV CW in your party. Not enough armor pen?
Here's an ACT log of mine from last night. Had a lot more buffs/debuffs, since it's a full party, but also had first timers on the team.
You are right, it's useful to have both CWs in a party for that particular reason (as well as the "fire singularity").
@magiquepurse: Please do multiple runs with the same group or your ACTs will show nothing but a glimpse. Also it's not useful to use wipe-runs as a comparison. Any run above 30 minutes is not significant.
The problem is that the crit on SW isn't that great on spellstorms because EotS makes it inefficient.
That said SW is tailor made for MOF CW. The set bonus is good, the stats are wonderful, it's easy to keep the buff up, but because convention is HV is the best, people don't consider this otherwise great set.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
This is quite simple to answer. Your run seems to be a full 5 man run with multiple classes stacking debuffs. My runs were CW+GWF and CW+CW, where there where no debuffs other than HV. I can't say much about what debuffs a GWF can do but he had a GPF.
Also my spec is PvP thaum. That means:
- no Destructive Wizardry
- no Bitter Cold
- no FPT
- no Malevolent Surge
- no Wizard's Wrath, but 3/3 Focused Wizardy 2/5 Learned Spellcaster
- only 25 Int, 15 Cha (or so)
- halfling
Even in these conditions, I can still solo Draco lol
These were 2 man runs. People had PvP/mixed spec. I couldn't really duo (even moreso solo) draco with HV set (3% LS) so I had to switch to Purified for more life steal (13%).
The incredibly high damage done by me is not due to wiping (we died only at draco once I think when i tried HV), but due to being just two and me having to pretty much carry the DPS task by myself.
Keep in mind, I don't do this so I can speedrun for AD. I do this because PvP is broken ATM and we stopped playing, and basically we wanna do something together.
Yes that would be the glyphs.
They seem way less significant with a proper 5-man PvE party with many debuffs/buffs and full PvE spec. 3% in the above screenshot.
@Everybody:
I'm not trying to prove anything here lol. We're mostly PvPers doing PvE for some AD and out of nothing else to do, as we wouldn't lower ourselves to using Reds or reflect/KV GFs in PvP.
People asked for how Glyphs compare to HV in PvE, so I just tried to provide some info
I am going to try solo draco soon, but i think it must be very difficult, so grats on that.
So the "good" options seem to be
HV - for spellstorms
SW - for MoFs
Draconic with red glyphs.
Obviously you can use them with different specs if the rest of the gear is built properly. It's very interesting. I have a 5% regret i salvaged my draconic set XD
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I used Purified set by the way, because of its defensive stats and because I cannot be bothered to re-gear for LS with HV. You might wanna take a look at Corrupted as well. Both seems to me better than Draconic, the Corrupted set bonus is actually useful as well.
Using Purified will put a dent in your ArP though, but... coincidentally the Red Glyps solve that very issue.
Downside is that BI gear has to be fed BI, and Glyphs cost AD unless you farming the last skirmish/dungeon a lot.
I ran CN a few times more these days and I gave in though and got a Cleaving ring and LS kits to put on the HV set. I might try to solo draco with HV only, although I suspect it might prove too difficult, squishier and no glyphs proccing sucks.
That said, I will test them when i have them, then update my guide accordingly.
And yeah, HV is a bit squishy. You'd have to gear appropriately, but luckily rings and necks of shielding - which drop in elol - are great items and easy to get.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
No 5% more from int and 10% less AoE (shard etc) with a 30% boost on single target (stormspell etc.), so his damage destribution is different from PvE specs. BTW, I use focused wizadry on my CW too, I did no tests, but overall it seemed to be a dmg boost.
Up to you, but salvaging BI gear gives Black Ice. Just a hint for those in a big hurry.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know