kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
edited September 2014
While I agree with your basic conclusion (aka Renegade is screwed), you might try it with the same rotation/load-out as Thaum. My testing gave about 75% Thaum (Nightmare/Phantasmal doesn't do much now, and the capstone is a 2/3 worthless with geared parties). Additionally your control is inferior to either Thaum or Oppressor, since you can't readily afford to spend 10 feat points in oppressor.
The other unfortunate feature of your tests, is that Storm Spell/Assailant/Creeping Frost is over 50% of your damage. That's rather sad, CW being dependent on a bunch of random proc effects for it's damage.
You're using Ray of Frost as Thaum and Renegade? You're doing it wrong.
And why no final capstone feat for Renegade? How can this be an accurate assessment of Renegade's abilities if you don't even take the capstone feat?
And *by the way*, the Thaum path is *supposed* to be the DoT path. You can argue justifiably that the DoTs are too strong. But to choose Thaum is to deliberately choose passive DoTs for dealing damage.
You're using Ray of Frost as Thaum and Renegade? You're doing it wrong.
And why no final capstone feat for Renegade? How can this be an accurate assessment of Renegade's abilities if you don't even take the capstone feat?
And *by the way*, the Thaum path is *supposed* to be the DoT path. You can argue justifiably that the DoTs are too strong. But to choose Thaum is to deliberately choose passive DoTs for dealing damage.
I completely disagree, The only DoT that Thaumas have as a direct feat is Elemental Empowerment. Assailing Force can hardly be counted as a DoT as it does not do damage over time, rather is an ICD direct burst effect.
Not to mention that Thaumas, get the Best Paragon feat (The increase in damage for Icy Rays) for single target burst.
Speaking from a PvP perspective. There is no Reason whatsoever to use anything else than Ray of Frost. Magic Missile is underperforming (And Thaumas, do not rely on Arcane Stacks - so the utility from RoF is much better) RoF does not require you to stand still to cast, The Travel time on RoF is slightly faster than MM. I'm sure I don't need to discuss how bad Storm Pillar and Chilling Cloud are for PvP.
PvE is a seperate issue; Chilling cloud vastly outperforms any other At will for AoE, and then RoF again (in the form of proccing Storm Spell) for single target applications.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Renegade is the direct-damage Arcane feat tree. There are no DoT's involved in it's feat tree at all. Is it a successful tree? No, not really. However, I'll put some things here on paper before I test them later on since I'm now slightly curious about some things.
A) Combat Advantage provides a 30% damage boost if you have a 25 CHA. (15% from CA, 15% from stat) Chilling Advantage can provide a 5% critical chance + 3 to 18% damage.
C) Arcane Mastery provides a 15% bonus to Arcane Damage at 5 stacks.
So, you could end up with an unreliable 63% damage boost to your Arcane Encounters as a Renegade. This essentially requires you to slot EF in Tab, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Icy Terrain as your encounters to take any advantage of it at all. With Chaos Magic's critical buff, you could easily achieve a ~50% critical chance with a 135% critical severity not counting outside buff's or other unreliable set bonuses (SW set comes to mind.)
Or, alternatively, you could simply rely entirely on Chaos Magic for critical chance and unslot EotS in favor of Chilling Presence/Evocation for an unreliable 78% damage buff on your direct damage encounters. (Basically Sudden Storm/Steal Time)
So yeah, it's kind of sad that even considering all of this setup and theory still has Renegade pegged at the bottom of the barrel. I still want to hit Preview server with it though just because most of my Renegade tests were on the MoF. Either way, all of these damage bonuses are not reliable and take time to ramp up and in given content it's hard to take advantage of that often.
EotS/Storm Spell with Elemental Empowerment and Frozen Power Transfer are simply more reliable and easier to get maximum use out of. It's easy and too effective considering that Elemental Empowerment and Storm Spell both crit which drives their damage up far more than perhaps they should considering how thoughtless the rotation is.
As a response to the above parse information I think that it isn't fair to put a Spellstorm Thaumaturge parse together with a Renegade parse when they are in the same team. The combat advantage provided by Nightmare Wizardry is going to skew the result. Not by much, perhaps, but Thaumaturge is getting that ~30% damage buff from it as well even if it isn't on every target. The Renegade skipping Chaos Magic is also somewhat questionable although the very nature of that 'buff' makes it difficult to really tell how useful it is.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
As a response to the above parse information I think that it isn't fair to put a Spellstorm Thaumaturge parse together with a Renegade parse when they are in the same team. The combat advantage provided by Nightmare Wizardry is going to skew the result. Not by much, perhaps, but Thaumaturge is getting that ~30% damage buff from it as well even if it isn't on every target. The Renegade skipping Chaos Magic is also somewhat questionable although the very nature of that 'buff' makes it difficult to really tell how useful it is.
Well of course it isn't fair. It's not intended to be 'fair'. The entire point of those ACT logs are to 'prove' jayrad's pre-existing belief (and that of the other pvpers), instead of letting the data inform his conclusions.
It's just another exercise of PVPers using the forums cynically in order to get what they want.
Jayrad et al. should go in there with a real PVE build, using actual PVE powers that Thaums and Renegades would actually use (hint: not Ray of Frost, not Severe Reaction) and then come back with some meaningful data to support the conclusion they want to draw. Instead of trying to hoodwink everyone with baloney data.
Well of course it isn't fair. It's not intended to be 'fair'. The entire point of those ACT logs are to 'prove' jayrad's pre-existing belief (and that of the other pvpers), instead of letting the data inform his conclusions.
It's just another exercise of PVPers using the forums cynically in order to get what they want.
Jayrad et al. should go in there with a real PVE build, using actual PVE powers that Thaums and Renegades would actually use (hint: not Ray of Frost, not Severe Reaction) and then come back with some meaningful data to support the conclusion they want to draw. Instead of trying to hoodwink everyone with baloney data.
Sure, it was not a 100% controlled experiment with the best possible Renegade PvE build vs the best possible Thaum PvE build, but I do not have the time or resources to get as technical about it with gear, companions, etc. as others here may be able to do. I did what I could while using a predominantly Renegade build and I encouraged other CWs to do their own Opp/Rene/Thaum comparisons. Do I think that a better test would yield results suggesting that Renegade is actually useful? Absolutely not, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
Spacejew spelled it out perfectly -- even in a perfect world and ideal conditions for a Renegade, it doesn't offer nearly as much damage or control as a Thaum or Oppressor can to a group. What I want is for this tree to have a role and be a contender again -- what CW player wouldn't want three viable trees?
Pointsman, I appreciate you playing devil's advocate, but I don't see you posting any of your feedback about M4 CWs here. Are you 100% content with where the CW and all of it's features are? What do you like and dislike? What would you change?
Well of course it isn't fair. It's not intended to be 'fair'. The entire point of those ACT logs are to 'prove' jayrad's pre-existing belief (and that of the other pvpers), instead of letting the data inform his conclusions.
It's just another exercise of PVPers using the forums cynically in order to get what they want.
Jayrad et al. should go in there with a real PVE build, using actual PVE powers that Thaums and Renegades would actually use (hint: not Ray of Frost, not Severe Reaction) and then come back with some meaningful data to support the conclusion they want to draw. Instead of trying to hoodwink everyone with baloney data.
No one is disputing that Renegade is far behind Thauma and Opp atm.
If anything I think the PvP Cws have been the most vocal about the changes to how the class plays.
Care to elaborate on what you perceive to be jayrad's "pre-existing belief" actually is?
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Sure, it was not a 100% controlled experiment with the best possible Renegade PvE build vs the best possible Thaum PvE build, but I do not have the time or resources to get as technical about it with gear, companions, etc. as others here may be able to do. I did what I could while using a predominantly Renegade build and I encouraged other CWs to do their own Opp/Rene/Thaum comparisons. Do I think that a better test would yield results suggesting that Renegade is actually useful? Absolutely not, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
Spacejew spelled it out perfectly -- even in a perfect world and ideal conditions for a Renegade, it doesn't offer nearly as much damage or control as a Thaum or Oppressor can to a group. What I want is for this tree to have a role and be a contender again -- what CW player wouldn't want three viable trees?
Pointsman, I appreciate you playing devil's advocate, but I don't see you posting any of your feedback about M4 CWs here. Are you 100% content with where the CW and all of it's features are? What do you like and dislike? What would you change?
Well, here's the thing. You rigged the test to get the result that you wanted, whether intentionally or not. PVE CW's don't use Ray of Frost as their main at-wills (and especially not Thaums or Renegades). But Ray of Frost procs Storm Spell a lot. So you went in there, deliberately trying to proc Storm Spell a lot, so that you could then come to the forums and see "look! CWs get so much damage from a passive Storm Spell! That's terrible!"
Had you actually done it the way a PVE Thaum CW might have done it, you would have gotten different results. Storm Spell wouldn't have been 30% of the damage because the CW would have been using Chilling Cloud instead.
I play MoF Oppressor CW right now. So I don't have Storm Spell or Assailant or Creeping Frost or these things. I am disappointed at the changes to chill. I don't think mobs should get chill immunity, that's kinda dumb. (What, they freeze and then they... suddenly get warm again?) I think a single Oppressor CW should be able to freeze (if not "perma"-freeze) most mobs in a dungeon, but doing not so much damage. That ought to be a mechanic that is rewarded, not punished.
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
Plenty of PvE CWs are using RoF now. Even without using RoF, Storm Spell was 36% of my damage, in a recent parse. Most of our damage is in Storm Spell, so we've got to proc it as much as possible.
When I run dungeons, Thaums are doing 2-3 times my Renegades damage, no matter which powers I use.
I did a significant amount of testing on each of the three trees on the preview server before the Mod 4 launch. As a Renegade CW I was able to do about 80% of the DPS I could do as a Thaumaturge. As a Renegade I could still fairly easily complete every Major HE in Icewind Dale solo. This was with companions bonuses and stats that are better suited to a Thaumaturge build. Basically, the Renegade tree does fall behind the Thaumaturge tree in raw damage but it is still a viable tree.
The testing in the described above is very poorly executed. Imagine how bad it would look if I decided to run a test to prove that the Renegade tree was superior to the Thaumaturge tree and as part of my testing I left off the Thaumaturge tree capstone feat. Would anyone take my results seriously?
As a Renegade I could still fairly easily complete every Major HE in Icewind Dale solo.
Could you explain how you did that? Because I tried on preview as both SS Thaum and MoF Thaum and I could not solo the Major HE's. The Bear Rider spears or Deathlock Wight AOE would always get me.
I tried with full HV and CoI on Tab/Sudden Storm (feated)/Steal Time/Icy Terrain, also with Shield on tab for more tankiness, also with using Shard for more prones/control, and could not do it.
Plenty of PvE CWs are using RoF now. Even without using RoF, Storm Spell was 36% of my damage, in a recent parse. Most of our damage is in Storm Spell, so we've got to proc it as much as possible.
When I run dungeons, Thaums are doing 2-3 times my Renegades damage, no matter which powers I use.
This was exactly the expierence I had while running Renegade so I tend to agree. Some of it's from Renegade buff/debuff, but not enough to account for the difference. It's mostly Storm Spell acting like the old Deep Gash.
Last night I logged into preview and messed around with a lot of different Spellstorm Renegade combinations. I do not have the ability to post my parses, but even with all the damage buff's I could possibly throw at it with a 14k CW Sudden Storm was not able to do more than 20k or so per target on a critical strike. Considering that Storm Spell crits for 4-6k damage on a crit, and it proc's often and can autocrit during EotS, it's just a no-brainer at this point.
Basically Storm Spell is the new Deep Gash. Cryptic didn't learn their lesson from that fiasco that perhaps automatic DoT's shouldn't be able to crit. This makes direct damage abilities much less attractive since Storm Spell effectively tacks on a bigger bonus to damage than evo/cp combined.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Disagree somewhat with OP's premise that module 3 CW was fine and dandy while module 4 CW is so gross that he quit playing.
I think both versions of CWs were imbalanced and not fun to play with for most players in PVP.
CW's are still squishy and could be killed easily if you tinker with their burst damage or CC too much.
Just hoping that the fact that CWs are a overpowered at the moment would not lead to big nerfs because if the CW can't kill you fast, he gets killed fast.
This is just a little caution to prevent stupid suggestions on nerfing CWs too much since not all CWs are like OP with BIS gear and a top PVP guild premade to go to sometimes.
I did a significant amount of testing on each of the three trees on the preview server before the Mod 4 launch. As a Renegade CW I was able to do about 80% of the DPS I could do as a Thaumaturge. As a Renegade I could still fairly easily complete every Major HE in Icewind Dale solo. This was with companions bonuses and stats that are better suited to a Thaumaturge build. Basically, the Renegade tree does fall behind the Thaumaturge tree in raw damage but it is still a viable tree.
The testing in the described above is very poorly executed. Imagine how bad it would look if I decided to run a test to prove that the Renegade tree was superior to the Thaumaturge tree and as part of my testing I left off the Thaumaturge tree capstone feat. Would anyone take my results seriously?
Having the capstone would have given me two useful things -- 10% more damage or 10% more crit chance. In any case, that was not going to double my damage and since we were in the same party, I would have likely been giving those buffs to the Thaum user too.
Everyday PvE solo play by the average user is a completely different story, even a completely un-feated wizard is viable in the sense that it can get by, but I'm speaking more in terms of what is offered to a group. Renegade cannot exercise more control or damage as much as Thaum so why would anyone use it when trying to offer the most to a PvE or PvP group?
I play MoF Oppressor CW right now. So I don't have Storm Spell or Assailant or Creeping Frost or these things. I am disappointed at the changes to chill. I don't think mobs should get chill immunity, that's kinda dumb. (What, they freeze and then they... suddenly get warm again?) I think a single Oppressor CW should be able to freeze (if not "perma"-freeze) most mobs in a dungeon, but doing not so much damage. That ought to be a mechanic that is rewarded, not punished.
Yes, Oppressor is sadly not providing the control intensive gameplay that I think it should. Rene and Thaum have access to a huge bonus from Orb of Imposition, can take Chilling Control with their capstone, and the chilling artifact weapons undermine Glacial Movement. You can stack control companions and have incredible bonuses as an Opp, but take that same setup to Thaum and you now have incredible damage too.
All three trees were on par last mod, even hybrid builds were effective. What bugs me is that the Opp rework was valiant in trying to reinforce it as the control tree, but had this undermined so largely, and Rene really had no defining characteristics added to it.
Could you explain how you did that? Because I tried on preview as both SS Thaum and MoF Thaum and I could not solo the Major HE's. The Bear Rider spears or Deathlock Wight AOE would always get me.
I tried with full HV and CoI on Tab/Sudden Storm (feated)/Steal Time/Icy Terrain, also with Shield on tab for more tankiness, also with using Shard for more prones/control, and could not do it.
You have to focus on keeping the enemies controlled - especially the dangerous ones like Deathlock Wrights and Bear Riders. Start by freezing them with CoI, Icy Terrain, then hold on to Steal Time for when the freeze wears off. Repeat. During gaps in control dodge a lot or use Oppressive Force. You can use Orb of Imposition to reduce those gaps to near 0 at a cost to your DPS. But it's also possible to finish them with EotS and Storm Spell slotted as passives. It's been a while but I was able to finish all HE's with about 30k sustained DPS as a Thaumaturge and around 25k DPS as a Renegade. Oppressor was around 22k. Results will vary depending on gear, power, and companions.
I think both versions of CWs were imbalanced and not fun to play with for most players in PVP.
In what way do you think they were imbalanced in M3 and now in M4?
I think the M3 CW just needed a small survivability boost and for the bugs with other classes to be fixed, such as GWF Roar and HR profound set. I think if GWF/HR had been toned down in M3 PvP, there could have been a better perspective on what should have been done for M4, but those bugs lasted the whole mod unfortunately.
Now in M4, CWs alongside HRs are overpowered and I think appropriate changes can be made to balance them. Personally, I preferred the challenge of playing a CW in M3 to the ease of playing one in M4, but that is likely not an opinion shared by the masses.
The big difference for me was that in M3, other classes were causing PvP imbalance, but now we are in M4.
Just hoping that the fact that CWs are a overpowered at the moment would not lead to big nerfs because if the CW can't kill you fast, he gets killed fast.
This is just a little caution to prevent stupid suggestions on nerfing CWs too much since not all CWs are like OP with BIS gear and a top PVP guild premade to go to sometimes.
If too many things are changed at once, I too would be worried that CWs would be back to an undesirable state in PvP. The things in my OP are just ideas, things that I think would help balance the class and make it more fun for me to play. Things that I hoped would spark conversation from other CWs on what they want to see in the class.
If one change were to be made right now for CWs, I would reduce the damage of Storm Spell and see where that leaves us. I think PvE'rs would still have no trouble clearing their content and honest PvP'rs would agree that it's too much as is.
In what way do you think they were imbalanced in M3 and now in M4?
I think the M3 CW just needed a small survivability boost and for the bugs with other classes to be fixed, such as GWF Roar and HR profound set. I think if GWF/HR had been toned down in M3 PvP, there could have been a better perspective on what should have been done for M4, but those bugs lasted the whole mod unfortunately.
Now in M4, CWs alongside HRs are overpowered and I think appropriate changes can be made to balance them. Personally, I preferred the challenge of playing a CW in M3 to the ease of playing one in M4, but that is likely not an opinion shared by the masses.
The big difference for me was that in M3, other classes were causing PvP imbalance, but now we are in M4.
If too many things are changed at once, I too would be worried that CWs would be back to an undesirable state in PvP. The things in my OP are just ideas, things that I think would help balance the class and make it more fun for me to play. Things that I hoped would spark conversation from other CWs on what they want to see in the class.
If one change were to be made right now for CWs, I would reduce the damage of Storm Spell and see where that leaves us. I think PvE'rs would still have no trouble clearing their content and honest PvP'rs would agree that it's too much as is.
There were tons of bugs that CWs needed to be fixed in module 3. Armor penetration was not working for a lot of skills. Their best skill: Shard, bugged out constantly. Steal time and icy terrain weren't buffed yet. A lot of it also had to do with other classes like you said. GWFs and HRs were overpowered. HRs are still a little bit overpowered (even though "an overpowered CW should be able to kill it in a lot of cases) and GFs are a whole different troll story. CWs needed a bit more than a small survivability jump if their damage and CC is going to be nerfed. The shield is a very nice start. But again, CWs are still squishy toons that have no CC immunity, no get out of jail free card like the block mechanic or stealth or unstoppable or tons of dodges.
Right now, CW's burst damage and CC are too much for any class outside of the GF, good HRs and good GWFs to overcome. If you remove that without upping CW's survivability by a lot, CWs are going back to being punching bags in module 3 that incur tons and tons of deaths each game unless you are in one of the top 3 PVP guild premade with a good BIS support player.
I also disagree with some of the notions indirectly expressed. I think a lot of unskilled players are benefitting a lot from CW's braindead ray of frost mechanics. CW is a god class against pugs, but that is not the case at every skill level.
At the top end, I think most classes are able to compete with CWs pretty decently. GFs with their troll builds are above everything else, but I'm not worrying because it will be fixed in module 6.
There were tons of bugs that CWs needed to be fixed in module 3. Armor penetration was not working for a lot of skills. Their best skill: Shard, bugged out constantly. Steal time and icy terrain weren't buffed yet. A lot of it also had to do with other classes like you said. GWFs and HRs were overpowered. HRs are still a little bit overpowered (even though "an overpowered CW should be able to kill it in a lot of cases) and GFs are a whole different troll story. CWs needed a bit more than a small survivability jump if their damage and CC is going to be nerfed. The shield is a very nice start. But again, CWs are still squishy toons that have no CC immunity, no get out of jail free card like the block mechanic or stealth or unstoppable or tons of dodges.
Right now, CW's burst damage and CC are too much for any class outside of the GF, good HRs and good GWFs to overcome. If you remove that without upping CW's survivability by a lot, CWs are going back to being punching bags in module 3 that incur tons and tons of deaths each game unless you are in one of the top 3 PVP guild premade with a good BIS support player.
I also disagree with some of the notions indirectly expressed. I think a lot of unskilled players are benefitting a lot from CW's braindead ray of frost mechanics. CW is a god class against pugs, but that is not the case at every skill level.
At the top end, I think most classes are able to compete with CWs pretty decently. GFs with their troll builds are above everything else, but I'm not worrying because it will be fixed in module 6.
BIs HR against BIS CW, Cw loses 9/10 times. Trust me, I have 1v1ed my fellow guild mate numerous times in IWD without Pets to this effect to see what else can be done.
If the HR is combat specced and running the cookie cutter skills (Marauders, Fox and Boar), There is practically nothing we can do. Their burst is better than ours, They are more survivable, they have higher healing capactiy, better base defense.
My guildmate pushes 64% Deflect on Node 2 in PvP. 64%. Thats <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. He can be at 15% Hp, get a Boar and Fox shift crit (His crit chance is around 43% - High enough for it to happen most of the time) and heal himself to near full.
With the way Disruptive currently works (Being an instant application) we need to be incredibally lucky with our dodges, and with the range increase on Boars and Foxes, if Disruptive lands, Boar and Foxes will land as well.
With 1 rotation I can go from 100% with my 49k Hp in Dom, down to 5-15% (around 10k or less).
Cws with a slight reduction on the effectiveness of Storm spell will be in a good spot. HRs on the other hand. Need a drastic work over.
The Largest problem in PvP at the moment is Glyphs (Notably Red over anything else) And how they are unmitigatable and undodgeable. Just ruins Gwfs.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
BIs HR against BIS CW, Cw loses 9/10 times. Trust me, I have 1v1ed my fellow guild mate numerous times in IWD without Pets to this effect to see what else can be done.
If the HR is combat specced and running the cookie cutter skills (Marauders, Fox and Boar), There is practically nothing we can do. Their burst is better than ours, They are more survivable, they have higher healing capactiy, better base defense.
My guildmate pushes 64% Deflect on Node 2 in PvP. 64%. Thats <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. He can be at 15% Hp, get a Boar and Fox shift crit (His crit chance is around 43% - High enough for it to happen most of the time) and heal himself to near full.
With the way Disruptive currently works (Being an instant application) we need to be incredibally lucky with our dodges, and with the range increase on Boars and Foxes, if Disruptive lands, Boar and Foxes will land as well.
With 1 rotation I can go from 100% with my 49k Hp in Dom, down to 5-15% (around 10k or less).
Cws with a slight reduction on the effectiveness of Storm spell will be in a good spot. HRs on the other hand. Need a drastic work over.
I think this goes into my point about people crying about CWs being overpowered in PVP a little too much and it would lead to stupid nerfs because of stupid people.
There needs to be a change because there is a low level of intelligence required to press a button and ray of frost a pug to death. HOWEVER, based on my suspicions and xtraordinary's claims, at the highest level with skill and gear being not a big factor, BIS CWs get owned by the new GF troll build, will need perfect timing and maneuvering to beat a GWF, and will probably lose to a BIS HR.
This is the class that OP is going to retire for. Not the GF reflect builds, not HRs, not module 3 GWFs. I guess everyone has their own sentiments and we have to respect that, but I vehemently disagree with the tone of this thread by OP and some other posters.
If anyone has a video of k4to (a BIS HR from chocolate shoppe) consistently losing to any of you CWs, feel free to show me and prove me wrong. Or how about any of the "awesomely OP" Control Wizards here go up against Mouz's GF? Let's see how you guys think control wizards are the god class by consistently beating him 1v1. I'm betting you and your wizard god class will get smacked repeatedly over and over and over again, but that's just me. Until then, while I might not be a top player, I know enough about the end game to call out BS and confidently stick to my opinions.
I think this goes into my point about people crying about CWs being overpowered in PVP a little too much and it would lead to stupid nerfs because of stupid people.
There needs to be a change because there is a low level of intelligence required to press a button and ray of frost a pug to death. HOWEVER, based on my suspicions and xtraordinary's claims, at the highest level with skill and gear being not a big factor, BIS CWs get owned by the new GF troll build, will need perfect timing and maneuvering to beat a GWF, and will probably lose to a BIS HR.
This is the class that OP is going to retire for. Not the GF reflect builds, not HRs, not module 3 GWFs. I guess everyone has their own sentiments and we have to respect that, but I vehemently disagree with the tone of this thread by OP and some other posters.
If anyone has a video of k4to (a BIS HR from chocolate shoppe) consistently losing to any of you CWs, feel free to show me and prove me wrong. Or how about any of the "awesomely OP" Control Wizards here go up against Mouz's GF? Let's see how you guys think control wizards are the god class by consistently beating him 1v1. I'm betting you and your wizard god class will get smacked repeatedly over and over and over again, but that's just me. Until then, while I might not be a top player, I know enough about the end game to call out BS and confidently stick to my opinions.
For what its worth Rangerface / Jerkface: absolutely trashed K4to in 1v1s in IWD. And thats who I have been testing against in IWD, And he doesn't even have his artifact weapon yet....
The current issue with GFs and the reflect build is Glyphs, with Panderus posting that they are working on a fix for Glyphs to not come into effect with reflect damage, Gfs will be in a good spot as well.
Cw v GWF has always been about timing dodges and CCs to maximise burst potential for both classes. Nothing has changed with that in the current meta. The only problem for GWFS is that all of their defence is completely negated by Greater Red Glyphs, which, unfortunately for them, Cws can stack attacks faster (with glyphs proccing from all our DoTs as well).
If a GF is not running the SoS Troll build then it is a 65:35 win loss ratio in the GF's favour. Where previously we could create distance and CC. Now we have to be in Melee Range the entire time to out manoeuvre them. (The only way I have beat them consistently, is to jump through them when bullrush is on CD and initiate EF in the air, so that it connects as you land - and they can't spin fast enough - followed by Chill strike, Icy Rays - Channel RoF to stack chill freeze - followed by repel. Rinse Repeat.)
Mind you though, I don't run shield anymore, as we need the 4th slot for CC against too many other classes, and in current meta, shield doesn't do anything against glyphs.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I think this goes into my point about people crying about CWs being overpowered in PVP a little too much and it would lead to stupid nerfs because of stupid people.
I completely agree, the change doesn't have to be a nerf, it doesn't need to involve every potentially problematic area at once, and the change should reflect what should be done if other classes have their imbalances corrected as well. I think it's extremely important to emphasize that changes can be implemented without nerfing the class.
If GFs are changed such that they can no longer have near 100% uptime on SoS and no longer inflict glyph damage when reflecting, I think you will see different outcomes at the BiS vs BiS level. But, what is the primary problem in this situation? To me, it's glyphs and the ap gain is secondary.
If HRs are changed such that Piercing Blade respects DR/deflect, I think that also helps level the playing field.
With those things in mind, I think Storm Spell is the first place to start when talking about removing imbalances from CWs. Sure, we currently need our imbalances to compete with the imbalances in other classes, but that doesn't justify leaving things as they are regardless of what happens to other classes. Would reducing the damage of Storm Spell be a nerf? I think that answer is entirely subjective.
I suppose that would count it as a "nerf" but really, in my mind a "nerf" is something which reduces the power of a character, ability, or item and is something that isn't needed but was done anyway. This needed to be done, so to me it counts as a fix.
Reducing the damage of Storm Spell is needed in my opinion, but you could argue that it reduces the power potential of CWs and is therefore a nerf. So in my OP, I quote:
Storm Spell - A passive ability that provides more damage than an encounter. The change, which doubled damage and proc chance, introduced the easy mode, overpowered, and skill-less game play that you now encounter against CWs. Literally no one asked for this change in the preview feedback and everyone knew it would be as game breaking as it was originally with 35% proc chance and ability to proc on the application of chill stacks. It's still too much. Keep the proc chance and halve the damage to where it was during M3, return the damage boost by buffing single target encounters (or shard ), and you will have the warranted damage increase placed in an area requiring skillful ability to land an encounter.
For example, if you change Storm Spell so that it now does 3k less damage on average, return this by increasing the damage of encounters like Entangling Force, Chill Strike, Repel, Shard, etc. in order to keep the original damage/power potential. I don't have a problem with the amount of damage CWs are doing -- I have a problem with how easy it is to do and the way in which it is dealt, leading to the godmode vs pugs and such. Storm Spell isn't the only area that this could be applied, but in general, if you change the way the damage is dealt to involve more skill/thought, veteran players are going to have the experience to adapt to it while pugs will have a harder time sorting it out and be less god-like.
At least I think that's what you're saying you want, right? Changes that alleviate the CW imbalance at pug level, but keep them in a balanced place at higher levels?
I completely agree, the change doesn't have to be a nerf, it doesn't need to involve every potentially problematic area at once, and the change should reflect what should be done if other classes have their imbalances corrected as well. I think it's extremely important to emphasize that changes can be implemented without nerfing the class.
If GFs are changed such that they can no longer have near 100% uptime on SoS and no longer inflict glyph damage when reflecting, I think you will see different outcomes at the BiS vs BiS level. But, what is the primary problem in this situation? To me, it's glyphs and the ap gain is secondary.
If HRs are changed such that Piercing Blade respects DR/deflect, I think that also helps level the playing field.
With those things in mind, I think Storm Spell is the first place to start when talking about removing imbalances from CWs. Sure, we currently need our imbalances to compete with the imbalances in other classes, but that doesn't justify leaving things as they are regardless of what happens to other classes. Would reducing the damage of Storm Spell be a nerf? I think that answer is entirely subjective.
Reducing the damage of Storm Spell is needed in my opinion, but you could argue that it reduces the power potential of CWs and is therefore a nerf.
For example, if you change Storm Spell so that it now does 3k less damage on average, return this by increasing the damage of encounters like Entangling Force, Chill Strike, Repel, Shard, etc. in order to keep the original damage/power potential. I don't have a problem with the amount of damage CWs are doing -- I have a problem with how easy it is to do and the way in which it is dealt, leading to the godmode vs pugs and such. Storm Spell isn't the only area that this could be applied, but in general, if you change the way the damage is dealt to involve more skill/thought, veteran players are going to have the experience to adapt to it while pugs will have a harder time sorting it out and be less god-like.
At least I think that's what you're saying you want, right? Changes that alleviate the CW imbalance at pug level, but keep them in a balanced place at higher levels?
What changes would you make to CWs?
I will separate my response into 2 paragraphs (premades, then pugs):
I personally think nerfing storm spell would make BIS GWFs and HRs better than CWs but that is just a prediction. I believe at this point (with troll GF and HR builds), CWs are in a good spot at high level premades. You bring a comp of 4x CWs against EOA, you get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. 1-2 CWs are the best and I think that makes them fair at high level premades. The problem I could see is that CWs are just too efficient at killing DCs. That entails buffing DC rather than nerfing CW.
At PUG level, CWs are almost as bad as GWFs were in module 3 (because CWs are still squishy right now). I'm sure other people would make better suggestions, but I would say increasing the frost immunity by 1-2 more seconds after being frozen is a good way to go. I have no problem with control wizards being glass cannon but it they should give HRs, GWFs, GFs a chance to close the gap.
Let me reiterate my point to whoever else (devs) might read this thread: CWs are fine in high level premades. They need some adjusting in PUG level PVP but GFs are a priority fix
No, the chill immunity is stupid. Get rid of it. A single Oppressor CW should be able to nearly perma-freeze adds in a dungeon. That is the CW's role.
Stop messing around with the CW mechanics based on a stupid PVP scenario.
I don't think you should be using that adjective to describe PVP. Most high end players think PVE is stupid and a joke. Perhaps a better adjective to describe the PVP scenario is "minor".
But really though, other than Black Lotus, is there a respectable high end PVE guild? Don't think so.
I don't think you should be using that adjective to describe PVP. Most high end players think PVE is stupid and a joke. Perhaps a better adjective to describe the PVP scenario is "minor".
In case I hadn't made myself clear enough, I do not care one bit about PVP at all. If PVP were to vanish tomorrow, I wouldn't give a ****. Moreover I am perpetually irritated by the PVP whiners who use the forums as another form of PVP to get classes nerfed, which end up hurting everyone's PVE play. Chill wasn't nerfed because of PVErs, that is for sure. It was nerfed because of PVP whining. And I'm also irritated at the devs who actually *listen* to such whining. Especially since PVP in this game has absolutely zero honor or integrity. Want to know why there is no /legit channel dedicated for PVP? Because the only way to do well in PVP is to cheat, exploit, or otherwise abuse the system. The OP of this thread should ask his guild leader what he thinks about the legitimacy of exploiting the game. I think we all know the answer to that question.
In case I hadn't made myself clear enough, I do not care one bit about PVP at all. If PVP were to vanish tomorrow, I wouldn't give a ****. Moreover I am perpetually irritated by the PVP whiners who use the forums as another form of PVP to get classes nerfed, which end up hurting everyone's PVE play. Chill wasn't nerfed because of PVErs, that is for sure. It was nerfed because of PVP whining. And I'm also irritated at the devs who actually *listen* to such whining. Especially since PVP in this game has absolutely zero honor or integrity. Want to know why there is no /legit channel dedicated for PVP? Because the only way to do well in PVP is to cheat, exploit, or otherwise abuse the system. The OP of this thread should ask his guild leader what he thinks about the legitimacy of exploiting the game. I think we all know the answer to that question.
You don't care one bit about PVP. That's fine. Most high end players think PVE is a complete joke and unrewarding at this stage of the MMO (lacks in endgame content). People have different opinions. People play this game for different reasons. Everyone has a place.
There is a /legit channel for PVP by the way, you probably are unaware of it because you don't know enough high end folks in the game to be in the know. It doesn't have to much of a use anyways because PVP is about finding any groups. You do not have control of your opponents' actions so why bother trying to control the server.
Lastly to your point, no. If you call using overpowered builds as cheating, then a lot of PVE speedruns are full of cheaters as well. The only reason why most runs in PVE are now purely legit and non-zerg is because all the good players have either quit the game or moved on to PVP. 12 months ago, PVE was full of cheaters. You know why? Because PVE was worth doing back then. Castle Never was so profitable. Even tier 2 dungeons were profitable. Today, PVE has no endgame, the rewards suck, dungeons are a joke. Most elite players don't care about doing Castle Never anymore because the payout is too low. The newer dungeons revolve around RNG nonesense and do not reward skill and coordination.
In case I hadn't made myself clear enough, I do not care one bit about PVP at all. If PVP were to vanish tomorrow, I wouldn't give a ****. Moreover I am perpetually irritated by the PVP whiners who use the forums as another form of PVP to get classes nerfed, which end up hurting everyone's PVE play. Chill wasn't nerfed because of PVErs, that is for sure. It was nerfed because of PVP whining. And I'm also irritated at the devs who actually *listen* to such whining. Especially since PVP in this game has absolutely zero honor or integrity. Want to know why there is no /legit channel dedicated for PVP? Because the only way to do well in PVP is to cheat, exploit, or otherwise abuse the system. The OP of this thread should ask his guild leader what he thinks about the legitimacy of exploiting the game. I think we all know the answer to that question.
Are there *any* RESPECTABLE high-end PVP guilds? No.
I respect your opinion regarding PvP, however I think you need to be a little more Mature about the subject. PvP is a part of this game just as much as PvE is. Thats not going to change anytime soon.
As a PvP player I could sit here and complain about how the PvE wizards ruined Shard for PvP. But I won't.
In regards to cheating and exploiting. This was rife so much more in PvE than PvP at the start of the game. Don't even get me started.
You can sit there and claim that chill was reduced in effectiveness because of how it functioned in PvP, however, consider this: Perhaps the Devs are finally wanting PvE to be somewhat of a challenge, and not have all the adds be able to be CC'd completely all the time by one wizard *Shock Horror*. You mean, PvE Wizards may have to think about how to rotate their CC instead of just being able to push Tab Q E R in order one after the other, and worry about positioning? Oh no!
PvE is practically non existant in this game. There are no interesting Boss Mechanics (Apart from the one with the Floating Eye, where the area to fight the boss is reduced - You can tell how long its been for me to step into that area). There are no true DPS Races, No Raids, No great time investement for great reward currently.
People PvP because no two encounters are exactly the same, I can fight against the same person multiple times, and each time the encounter will be different. Compare that to PvE where the encounter is exactly the same everytime (Not to mention that the bosses here just have a million little friends they throw at you compared to actually having any meaningful mechanics).
You don't care one bit about PVP. That's fine. Most high end players think PVE is a complete joke and unrewarding at this stage of the MMO (lacks in endgame content). People have different opinions. People play this game for different reasons. Everyone has a place.
There is a /legit channel for PVP by the way, you probably are unaware of it because you don't know enough high end folks in the game to be in the know. It doesn't have to much of a use anyways because PVP is about finding any groups. You do not have control of your opponents' actions so why bother trying to control the server.
Lastly to your point, no. If you call using overpowered builds as cheating, then a lot of PVE speedruns are full of cheaters as well. The only reason why most runs in PVE are now purely legit and non-zerg is because all the good players have either quit the game or moved on to PVP. 12 months ago, PVE was full of cheaters. You know why? Because PVE was worth doing back then. Castle Never was so profitable. Even tier 2 dungeons were profitable. Today, PVE has no endgame, the rewards suck, dungeons are a joke. Most elite players don't care about doing Castle Never anymore because the payout is too low. The newer dungeons revolve around RNG nonesense and do not reward skill and coordination.
+1 to this.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
PVP is not a part of this game "just as much" as PVE. PVP is a poorly-considered tacked-on sideshow to the main purpose of this game, quite frankly only introduced in order to get PVPers like yourself to spend big bucks on this F2P game. Don't try to elevate it to some level of equivalence with the rest of this game. You know this yourself considering how little attention PVP has received and how much whining about it goes on in the forums. PVP doesn't deserve the level of attention and drama that it has received.
Chill was absolutely nerfed because of PVP whining, most notably by GFs. Who complained that "OMG CW can freeze entire rooms in dungeons, we can't have that!!!!" Do you think it is *easy* to freeze entire rooms? I currently play MoF Oppressor and it requires substantially more skill than just "doh press tab q e r". Positioning and timing are very important otherwise you waste all your control and mobs break free. It's hard. Not many people can do it well. I don't myself claim to be an expert at it either but I can see how it can be done. And the beauty of it is, letting one CW alone freeze the whole room opens up a party to accommodate more classes since parties wouldn't need to stack CWs, particularly undergeared ones who still need a lot of control in order to deal with all of the adds. Now that option has been taken away. Thanks to PVP whining.
And yes I am aware that there was a lot of exploiting of T2 dungeons back in the 'early days'. But even then, there was a community of PVE players who refused to go along with the exploits and insisted on running dungeons legit. The PVE legit community wasn't as big as it is today, but it was nevertheless still there. Where is this community of legit PVPers? There isn't one, because the moment someone gets associated with "legit PVP" is just a license for the enemy team to pull out all the dirty tricks, because they know that the legit PVPer won't fight dirty himself. And no I don't consider "overpowered builds" to be cheating, I consider actual cheating to be cheating. You know, duping AD's in order to get perfect enchants that you wouldn't have been able to earn otherwise, stat sheet exploits, armor swapping, manipulating the leaderboard via console commands during matches, etc., etc. That's the PVP creed: if the game mechanics technically allow it, then it's "legit", regardless.
That is one big reason why I have such a negative attitude towards PVP. Its very nature breeds dishonest and illegitimate behavior.
People PvP because no two encounters are exactly the same, I can fight against the same person multiple times, and each time the encounter will be different. Compare that to PvE where the encounter is exactly the same everytime (Not to mention that the bosses here just have a million little friends they throw at you compared to actually having any meaningful mechanics).
Actually that's not even true. Every single dungeon run with a different team is also a different experience because no two people approach the dungeon in exactly the same way. I've done Spellplague (the one you are referring to) where we nuked the final boss in 5 minutes. I've also done Spellplague where we made 8 attempts at the final boss before we all finally gave up. There was this one memorable Spellplague final boss fight where 4 of us wiped, the last of us wiping with the boss at about 4% health, and the final surviving party member, the DC who was specced for heals, kited the adds around and around that tiny platform while throwing an encounter or an at-will on the boss on every pass. It took *forever* to get that last 4% down, but that DC did it. It was pretty amazing actually. So no, not every dungeon run is *exactly the same*. Of course if you only go with the same people every time, then yes it will get boring. But if you do it with different people who bring different approaches then it can actually be fun.
I can give one easily that I just had some interaction with: Essence of Aggression
Too bad a certain former guild leader of EoA isn't around anymore to discuss this. I wonder why this person was asked to leave the game... Anyone know? Anyone? It's a complete mystery to me.
Some people who play PvP have invested hundreds of dollars into Zen as well. Not everyone is a certain person who has exploited AD To get to where they are. It's taken me a year of playing to get full Ranks, and push my Artifacts to Legendary (Utilizing Double RP weekends and stockpiling refinement stones, playing the AH ect.)
In regards to being a F2P game. Some people have to keep the lights on at Cryptic and PWE.
It is easy to CC entire rooms and entire pulls. Especially if you think about how to do it with CC powers.
There is only one guild that thinks that: "if the game mechanics technically allow it, then it's 'legit' ". But I won't name any names. These are the same people who brought you Ability Score adjustments, A certain Resonator Issue, and I am sure a bucketload more.
In regards to your behaviour towards PvP. Not everyone who PvPs is the same, and neither should you throw them all into the same bucket.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Too bad a certain former guild leader of EoA isn't around anymore to discuss this. I wonder why this person was asked to leave the game... Anyone know? Anyone? It's a complete mystery to me.
Please do not trash his name. That player is one of the nicest and most knowledgeable guys on the server.
He is not here anymore because he tested out a particular bug.
You don't know half the story of how the whole glitch was being done underground for months, the drama that led to it being exposed and casuals finally finding out on monday afternoon before the livestream. Please do not discuss matters that you have no idea about.
Comments
The other unfortunate feature of your tests, is that Storm Spell/Assailant/Creeping Frost is over 50% of your damage. That's rather sad, CW being dependent on a bunch of random proc effects for it's damage.
And why no final capstone feat for Renegade? How can this be an accurate assessment of Renegade's abilities if you don't even take the capstone feat?
And *by the way*, the Thaum path is *supposed* to be the DoT path. You can argue justifiably that the DoTs are too strong. But to choose Thaum is to deliberately choose passive DoTs for dealing damage.
I completely disagree, The only DoT that Thaumas have as a direct feat is Elemental Empowerment. Assailing Force can hardly be counted as a DoT as it does not do damage over time, rather is an ICD direct burst effect.
Not to mention that Thaumas, get the Best Paragon feat (The increase in damage for Icy Rays) for single target burst.
Speaking from a PvP perspective. There is no Reason whatsoever to use anything else than Ray of Frost. Magic Missile is underperforming (And Thaumas, do not rely on Arcane Stacks - so the utility from RoF is much better) RoF does not require you to stand still to cast, The Travel time on RoF is slightly faster than MM. I'm sure I don't need to discuss how bad Storm Pillar and Chilling Cloud are for PvP.
PvE is a seperate issue; Chilling cloud vastly outperforms any other At will for AoE, and then RoF again (in the form of proccing Storm Spell) for single target applications.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Renegade is the direct-damage Arcane feat tree. There are no DoT's involved in it's feat tree at all. Is it a successful tree? No, not really. However, I'll put some things here on paper before I test them later on since I'm now slightly curious about some things.
A) Combat Advantage provides a 30% damage boost if you have a 25 CHA. (15% from CA, 15% from stat)
C) Arcane Mastery provides a 15% bonus to Arcane Damage at 5 stacks.
So, you could end up with an unreliable 63% damage boost to your Arcane Encounters as a Renegade. This essentially requires you to slot EF in Tab, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Icy Terrain as your encounters to take any advantage of it at all. With Chaos Magic's critical buff, you could easily achieve a ~50% critical chance with a 135% critical severity not counting outside buff's or other unreliable set bonuses (SW set comes to mind.)
Or, alternatively, you could simply rely entirely on Chaos Magic for critical chance and unslot EotS in favor of Chilling Presence/Evocation for an unreliable 78% damage buff on your direct damage encounters. (Basically Sudden Storm/Steal Time)
So yeah, it's kind of sad that even considering all of this setup and theory still has Renegade pegged at the bottom of the barrel. I still want to hit Preview server with it though just because most of my Renegade tests were on the MoF. Either way, all of these damage bonuses are not reliable and take time to ramp up and in given content it's hard to take advantage of that often.
EotS/Storm Spell with Elemental Empowerment and Frozen Power Transfer are simply more reliable and easier to get maximum use out of. It's easy and too effective considering that Elemental Empowerment and Storm Spell both crit which drives their damage up far more than perhaps they should considering how thoughtless the rotation is.
As a response to the above parse information I think that it isn't fair to put a Spellstorm Thaumaturge parse together with a Renegade parse when they are in the same team. The combat advantage provided by Nightmare Wizardry is going to skew the result. Not by much, perhaps, but Thaumaturge is getting that ~30% damage buff from it as well even if it isn't on every target. The Renegade skipping Chaos Magic is also somewhat questionable although the very nature of that 'buff' makes it difficult to really tell how useful it is.
Well of course it isn't fair. It's not intended to be 'fair'. The entire point of those ACT logs are to 'prove' jayrad's pre-existing belief (and that of the other pvpers), instead of letting the data inform his conclusions.
It's just another exercise of PVPers using the forums cynically in order to get what they want.
Jayrad et al. should go in there with a real PVE build, using actual PVE powers that Thaums and Renegades would actually use (hint: not Ray of Frost, not Severe Reaction) and then come back with some meaningful data to support the conclusion they want to draw. Instead of trying to hoodwink everyone with baloney data.
Sure, it was not a 100% controlled experiment with the best possible Renegade PvE build vs the best possible Thaum PvE build, but I do not have the time or resources to get as technical about it with gear, companions, etc. as others here may be able to do. I did what I could while using a predominantly Renegade build and I encouraged other CWs to do their own Opp/Rene/Thaum comparisons. Do I think that a better test would yield results suggesting that Renegade is actually useful? Absolutely not, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
Spacejew spelled it out perfectly -- even in a perfect world and ideal conditions for a Renegade, it doesn't offer nearly as much damage or control as a Thaum or Oppressor can to a group. What I want is for this tree to have a role and be a contender again -- what CW player wouldn't want three viable trees?
Pointsman, I appreciate you playing devil's advocate, but I don't see you posting any of your feedback about M4 CWs here. Are you 100% content with where the CW and all of it's features are? What do you like and dislike? What would you change?
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No one is disputing that Renegade is far behind Thauma and Opp atm.
If anything I think the PvP Cws have been the most vocal about the changes to how the class plays.
Care to elaborate on what you perceive to be jayrad's "pre-existing belief" actually is?
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Well, here's the thing. You rigged the test to get the result that you wanted, whether intentionally or not. PVE CW's don't use Ray of Frost as their main at-wills (and especially not Thaums or Renegades). But Ray of Frost procs Storm Spell a lot. So you went in there, deliberately trying to proc Storm Spell a lot, so that you could then come to the forums and see "look! CWs get so much damage from a passive Storm Spell! That's terrible!"
Had you actually done it the way a PVE Thaum CW might have done it, you would have gotten different results. Storm Spell wouldn't have been 30% of the damage because the CW would have been using Chilling Cloud instead.
I play MoF Oppressor CW right now. So I don't have Storm Spell or Assailant or Creeping Frost or these things. I am disappointed at the changes to chill. I don't think mobs should get chill immunity, that's kinda dumb. (What, they freeze and then they... suddenly get warm again?) I think a single Oppressor CW should be able to freeze (if not "perma"-freeze) most mobs in a dungeon, but doing not so much damage. That ought to be a mechanic that is rewarded, not punished.
When I run dungeons, Thaums are doing 2-3 times my Renegades damage, no matter which powers I use.
The testing in the described above is very poorly executed. Imagine how bad it would look if I decided to run a test to prove that the Renegade tree was superior to the Thaumaturge tree and as part of my testing I left off the Thaumaturge tree capstone feat. Would anyone take my results seriously?
Could you explain how you did that? Because I tried on preview as both SS Thaum and MoF Thaum and I could not solo the Major HE's. The Bear Rider spears or Deathlock Wight AOE would always get me.
I tried with full HV and CoI on Tab/Sudden Storm (feated)/Steal Time/Icy Terrain, also with Shield on tab for more tankiness, also with using Shard for more prones/control, and could not do it.
This was exactly the expierence I had while running Renegade so I tend to agree. Some of it's from Renegade buff/debuff, but not enough to account for the difference. It's mostly Storm Spell acting like the old Deep Gash.
Last night I logged into preview and messed around with a lot of different Spellstorm Renegade combinations. I do not have the ability to post my parses, but even with all the damage buff's I could possibly throw at it with a 14k CW Sudden Storm was not able to do more than 20k or so per target on a critical strike. Considering that Storm Spell crits for 4-6k damage on a crit, and it proc's often and can autocrit during EotS, it's just a no-brainer at this point.
Basically Storm Spell is the new Deep Gash. Cryptic didn't learn their lesson from that fiasco that perhaps automatic DoT's shouldn't be able to crit. This makes direct damage abilities much less attractive since Storm Spell effectively tacks on a bigger bonus to damage than evo/cp combined.
I think both versions of CWs were imbalanced and not fun to play with for most players in PVP.
CW's are still squishy and could be killed easily if you tinker with their burst damage or CC too much.
Just hoping that the fact that CWs are a overpowered at the moment would not lead to big nerfs because if the CW can't kill you fast, he gets killed fast.
This is just a little caution to prevent stupid suggestions on nerfing CWs too much since not all CWs are like OP with BIS gear and a top PVP guild premade to go to sometimes.
Having the capstone would have given me two useful things -- 10% more damage or 10% more crit chance. In any case, that was not going to double my damage and since we were in the same party, I would have likely been giving those buffs to the Thaum user too.
Everyday PvE solo play by the average user is a completely different story, even a completely un-feated wizard is viable in the sense that it can get by, but I'm speaking more in terms of what is offered to a group. Renegade cannot exercise more control or damage as much as Thaum so why would anyone use it when trying to offer the most to a PvE or PvP group?
Yes, Oppressor is sadly not providing the control intensive gameplay that I think it should. Rene and Thaum have access to a huge bonus from Orb of Imposition, can take Chilling Control with their capstone, and the chilling artifact weapons undermine Glacial Movement. You can stack control companions and have incredible bonuses as an Opp, but take that same setup to Thaum and you now have incredible damage too.
All three trees were on par last mod, even hybrid builds were effective. What bugs me is that the Opp rework was valiant in trying to reinforce it as the control tree, but had this undermined so largely, and Rene really had no defining characteristics added to it.
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You have to focus on keeping the enemies controlled - especially the dangerous ones like Deathlock Wrights and Bear Riders. Start by freezing them with CoI, Icy Terrain, then hold on to Steal Time for when the freeze wears off. Repeat. During gaps in control dodge a lot or use Oppressive Force. You can use Orb of Imposition to reduce those gaps to near 0 at a cost to your DPS. But it's also possible to finish them with EotS and Storm Spell slotted as passives. It's been a while but I was able to finish all HE's with about 30k sustained DPS as a Thaumaturge and around 25k DPS as a Renegade. Oppressor was around 22k. Results will vary depending on gear, power, and companions.
In what way do you think they were imbalanced in M3 and now in M4?
I think the M3 CW just needed a small survivability boost and for the bugs with other classes to be fixed, such as GWF Roar and HR profound set. I think if GWF/HR had been toned down in M3 PvP, there could have been a better perspective on what should have been done for M4, but those bugs lasted the whole mod unfortunately.
Now in M4, CWs alongside HRs are overpowered and I think appropriate changes can be made to balance them. Personally, I preferred the challenge of playing a CW in M3 to the ease of playing one in M4, but that is likely not an opinion shared by the masses.
The big difference for me was that in M3, other classes were causing PvP imbalance, but now we are in M4.
If too many things are changed at once, I too would be worried that CWs would be back to an undesirable state in PvP. The things in my OP are just ideas, things that I think would help balance the class and make it more fun for me to play. Things that I hoped would spark conversation from other CWs on what they want to see in the class.
If one change were to be made right now for CWs, I would reduce the damage of Storm Spell and see where that leaves us. I think PvE'rs would still have no trouble clearing their content and honest PvP'rs would agree that it's too much as is.
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#BringBackShard | M5 CW Bug List | My M3 PvP Gameplay
There were tons of bugs that CWs needed to be fixed in module 3. Armor penetration was not working for a lot of skills. Their best skill: Shard, bugged out constantly. Steal time and icy terrain weren't buffed yet. A lot of it also had to do with other classes like you said. GWFs and HRs were overpowered. HRs are still a little bit overpowered (even though "an overpowered CW should be able to kill it in a lot of cases) and GFs are a whole different troll story. CWs needed a bit more than a small survivability jump if their damage and CC is going to be nerfed. The shield is a very nice start. But again, CWs are still squishy toons that have no CC immunity, no get out of jail free card like the block mechanic or stealth or unstoppable or tons of dodges.
Right now, CW's burst damage and CC are too much for any class outside of the GF, good HRs and good GWFs to overcome. If you remove that without upping CW's survivability by a lot, CWs are going back to being punching bags in module 3 that incur tons and tons of deaths each game unless you are in one of the top 3 PVP guild premade with a good BIS support player.
I also disagree with some of the notions indirectly expressed. I think a lot of unskilled players are benefitting a lot from CW's braindead ray of frost mechanics. CW is a god class against pugs, but that is not the case at every skill level.
At the top end, I think most classes are able to compete with CWs pretty decently. GFs with their troll builds are above everything else, but I'm not worrying because it will be fixed in module 6.
BIs HR against BIS CW, Cw loses 9/10 times. Trust me, I have 1v1ed my fellow guild mate numerous times in IWD without Pets to this effect to see what else can be done.
If the HR is combat specced and running the cookie cutter skills (Marauders, Fox and Boar), There is practically nothing we can do. Their burst is better than ours, They are more survivable, they have higher healing capactiy, better base defense.
My guildmate pushes 64% Deflect on Node 2 in PvP. 64%. Thats <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. He can be at 15% Hp, get a Boar and Fox shift crit (His crit chance is around 43% - High enough for it to happen most of the time) and heal himself to near full.
With the way Disruptive currently works (Being an instant application) we need to be incredibally lucky with our dodges, and with the range increase on Boars and Foxes, if Disruptive lands, Boar and Foxes will land as well.
With 1 rotation I can go from 100% with my 49k Hp in Dom, down to 5-15% (around 10k or less).
Cws with a slight reduction on the effectiveness of Storm spell will be in a good spot. HRs on the other hand. Need a drastic work over.
The Largest problem in PvP at the moment is Glyphs (Notably Red over anything else) And how they are unmitigatable and undodgeable. Just ruins Gwfs.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I think this goes into my point about people crying about CWs being overpowered in PVP a little too much and it would lead to stupid nerfs because of stupid people.
There needs to be a change because there is a low level of intelligence required to press a button and ray of frost a pug to death. HOWEVER, based on my suspicions and xtraordinary's claims, at the highest level with skill and gear being not a big factor, BIS CWs get owned by the new GF troll build, will need perfect timing and maneuvering to beat a GWF, and will probably lose to a BIS HR.
This is the class that OP is going to retire for. Not the GF reflect builds, not HRs, not module 3 GWFs. I guess everyone has their own sentiments and we have to respect that, but I vehemently disagree with the tone of this thread by OP and some other posters.
If anyone has a video of k4to (a BIS HR from chocolate shoppe) consistently losing to any of you CWs, feel free to show me and prove me wrong. Or how about any of the "awesomely OP" Control Wizards here go up against Mouz's GF? Let's see how you guys think control wizards are the god class by consistently beating him 1v1. I'm betting you and your wizard god class will get smacked repeatedly over and over and over again, but that's just me. Until then, while I might not be a top player, I know enough about the end game to call out BS and confidently stick to my opinions.
For what its worth Rangerface / Jerkface: absolutely trashed K4to in 1v1s in IWD. And thats who I have been testing against in IWD, And he doesn't even have his artifact weapon yet....
The current issue with GFs and the reflect build is Glyphs, with Panderus posting that they are working on a fix for Glyphs to not come into effect with reflect damage, Gfs will be in a good spot as well.
Cw v GWF has always been about timing dodges and CCs to maximise burst potential for both classes. Nothing has changed with that in the current meta. The only problem for GWFS is that all of their defence is completely negated by Greater Red Glyphs, which, unfortunately for them, Cws can stack attacks faster (with glyphs proccing from all our DoTs as well).
If a GF is not running the SoS Troll build then it is a 65:35 win loss ratio in the GF's favour. Where previously we could create distance and CC. Now we have to be in Melee Range the entire time to out manoeuvre them. (The only way I have beat them consistently, is to jump through them when bullrush is on CD and initiate EF in the air, so that it connects as you land - and they can't spin fast enough - followed by Chill strike, Icy Rays - Channel RoF to stack chill freeze - followed by repel. Rinse Repeat.)
Mind you though, I don't run shield anymore, as we need the 4th slot for CC against too many other classes, and in current meta, shield doesn't do anything against glyphs.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I completely agree, the change doesn't have to be a nerf, it doesn't need to involve every potentially problematic area at once, and the change should reflect what should be done if other classes have their imbalances corrected as well. I think it's extremely important to emphasize that changes can be implemented without nerfing the class.
If GFs are changed such that they can no longer have near 100% uptime on SoS and no longer inflict glyph damage when reflecting, I think you will see different outcomes at the BiS vs BiS level. But, what is the primary problem in this situation? To me, it's glyphs and the ap gain is secondary.
If HRs are changed such that Piercing Blade respects DR/deflect, I think that also helps level the playing field.
With those things in mind, I think Storm Spell is the first place to start when talking about removing imbalances from CWs. Sure, we currently need our imbalances to compete with the imbalances in other classes, but that doesn't justify leaving things as they are regardless of what happens to other classes. Would reducing the damage of Storm Spell be a nerf? I think that answer is entirely subjective.
This is what I think of when I hear nerf:
Reducing the damage of Storm Spell is needed in my opinion, but you could argue that it reduces the power potential of CWs and is therefore a nerf. So in my OP, I quote:
For example, if you change Storm Spell so that it now does 3k less damage on average, return this by increasing the damage of encounters like Entangling Force, Chill Strike, Repel, Shard, etc. in order to keep the original damage/power potential. I don't have a problem with the amount of damage CWs are doing -- I have a problem with how easy it is to do and the way in which it is dealt, leading to the godmode vs pugs and such. Storm Spell isn't the only area that this could be applied, but in general, if you change the way the damage is dealt to involve more skill/thought, veteran players are going to have the experience to adapt to it while pugs will have a harder time sorting it out and be less god-like.
At least I think that's what you're saying you want, right? Changes that alleviate the CW imbalance at pug level, but keep them in a balanced place at higher levels?
What changes would you make to CWs?
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#BringBackShard | M5 CW Bug List | My M3 PvP Gameplay
I personally think nerfing storm spell would make BIS GWFs and HRs better than CWs but that is just a prediction. I believe at this point (with troll GF and HR builds), CWs are in a good spot at high level premades. You bring a comp of 4x CWs against EOA, you get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. 1-2 CWs are the best and I think that makes them fair at high level premades. The problem I could see is that CWs are just too efficient at killing DCs. That entails buffing DC rather than nerfing CW.
At PUG level, CWs are almost as bad as GWFs were in module 3 (because CWs are still squishy right now). I'm sure other people would make better suggestions, but I would say increasing the frost immunity by 1-2 more seconds after being frozen is a good way to go. I have no problem with control wizards being glass cannon but it they should give HRs, GWFs, GFs a chance to close the gap.
Let me reiterate my point to whoever else (devs) might read this thread: CWs are fine in high level premades. They need some adjusting in PUG level PVP but GFs are a priority fix
Stop messing around with the CW mechanics based on a stupid PVP scenario.
I don't think you should be using that adjective to describe PVP. Most high end players think PVE is stupid and a joke. Perhaps a better adjective to describe the PVP scenario is "minor".
But really though, other than Black Lotus, is there a respectable high end PVE guild? Don't think so.
In case I hadn't made myself clear enough, I do not care one bit about PVP at all. If PVP were to vanish tomorrow, I wouldn't give a ****. Moreover I am perpetually irritated by the PVP whiners who use the forums as another form of PVP to get classes nerfed, which end up hurting everyone's PVE play. Chill wasn't nerfed because of PVErs, that is for sure. It was nerfed because of PVP whining. And I'm also irritated at the devs who actually *listen* to such whining. Especially since PVP in this game has absolutely zero honor or integrity. Want to know why there is no /legit channel dedicated for PVP? Because the only way to do well in PVP is to cheat, exploit, or otherwise abuse the system. The OP of this thread should ask his guild leader what he thinks about the legitimacy of exploiting the game. I think we all know the answer to that question.
Are there *any* RESPECTABLE high-end PVP guilds? No.
You don't care one bit about PVP. That's fine. Most high end players think PVE is a complete joke and unrewarding at this stage of the MMO (lacks in endgame content). People have different opinions. People play this game for different reasons. Everyone has a place.
There is a /legit channel for PVP by the way, you probably are unaware of it because you don't know enough high end folks in the game to be in the know. It doesn't have to much of a use anyways because PVP is about finding any groups. You do not have control of your opponents' actions so why bother trying to control the server.
Lastly to your point, no. If you call using overpowered builds as cheating, then a lot of PVE speedruns are full of cheaters as well. The only reason why most runs in PVE are now purely legit and non-zerg is because all the good players have either quit the game or moved on to PVP. 12 months ago, PVE was full of cheaters. You know why? Because PVE was worth doing back then. Castle Never was so profitable. Even tier 2 dungeons were profitable. Today, PVE has no endgame, the rewards suck, dungeons are a joke. Most elite players don't care about doing Castle Never anymore because the payout is too low. The newer dungeons revolve around RNG nonesense and do not reward skill and coordination.
I can give one easily that I just had some interaction with: Essence of Aggression
I respect your opinion regarding PvP, however I think you need to be a little more Mature about the subject. PvP is a part of this game just as much as PvE is. Thats not going to change anytime soon.
As a PvP player I could sit here and complain about how the PvE wizards ruined Shard for PvP. But I won't.
In regards to cheating and exploiting. This was rife so much more in PvE than PvP at the start of the game. Don't even get me started.
You can sit there and claim that chill was reduced in effectiveness because of how it functioned in PvP, however, consider this: Perhaps the Devs are finally wanting PvE to be somewhat of a challenge, and not have all the adds be able to be CC'd completely all the time by one wizard *Shock Horror*. You mean, PvE Wizards may have to think about how to rotate their CC instead of just being able to push Tab Q E R in order one after the other, and worry about positioning? Oh no!
PvE is practically non existant in this game. There are no interesting Boss Mechanics (Apart from the one with the Floating Eye, where the area to fight the boss is reduced - You can tell how long its been for me to step into that area). There are no true DPS Races, No Raids, No great time investement for great reward currently.
People PvP because no two encounters are exactly the same, I can fight against the same person multiple times, and each time the encounter will be different. Compare that to PvE where the encounter is exactly the same everytime (Not to mention that the bosses here just have a million little friends they throw at you compared to actually having any meaningful mechanics).
+1 to this.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Chill was absolutely nerfed because of PVP whining, most notably by GFs. Who complained that "OMG CW can freeze entire rooms in dungeons, we can't have that!!!!" Do you think it is *easy* to freeze entire rooms? I currently play MoF Oppressor and it requires substantially more skill than just "doh press tab q e r". Positioning and timing are very important otherwise you waste all your control and mobs break free. It's hard. Not many people can do it well. I don't myself claim to be an expert at it either but I can see how it can be done. And the beauty of it is, letting one CW alone freeze the whole room opens up a party to accommodate more classes since parties wouldn't need to stack CWs, particularly undergeared ones who still need a lot of control in order to deal with all of the adds. Now that option has been taken away. Thanks to PVP whining.
And yes I am aware that there was a lot of exploiting of T2 dungeons back in the 'early days'. But even then, there was a community of PVE players who refused to go along with the exploits and insisted on running dungeons legit. The PVE legit community wasn't as big as it is today, but it was nevertheless still there. Where is this community of legit PVPers? There isn't one, because the moment someone gets associated with "legit PVP" is just a license for the enemy team to pull out all the dirty tricks, because they know that the legit PVPer won't fight dirty himself. And no I don't consider "overpowered builds" to be cheating, I consider actual cheating to be cheating. You know, duping AD's in order to get perfect enchants that you wouldn't have been able to earn otherwise, stat sheet exploits, armor swapping, manipulating the leaderboard via console commands during matches, etc., etc. That's the PVP creed: if the game mechanics technically allow it, then it's "legit", regardless.
That is one big reason why I have such a negative attitude towards PVP. Its very nature breeds dishonest and illegitimate behavior.
Actually that's not even true. Every single dungeon run with a different team is also a different experience because no two people approach the dungeon in exactly the same way. I've done Spellplague (the one you are referring to) where we nuked the final boss in 5 minutes. I've also done Spellplague where we made 8 attempts at the final boss before we all finally gave up. There was this one memorable Spellplague final boss fight where 4 of us wiped, the last of us wiping with the boss at about 4% health, and the final surviving party member, the DC who was specced for heals, kited the adds around and around that tiny platform while throwing an encounter or an at-will on the boss on every pass. It took *forever* to get that last 4% down, but that DC did it. It was pretty amazing actually. So no, not every dungeon run is *exactly the same*. Of course if you only go with the same people every time, then yes it will get boring. But if you do it with different people who bring different approaches then it can actually be fun.
Too bad a certain former guild leader of EoA isn't around anymore to discuss this. I wonder why this person was asked to leave the game... Anyone know? Anyone? It's a complete mystery to me.
In regards to being a F2P game. Some people have to keep the lights on at Cryptic and PWE.
It is easy to CC entire rooms and entire pulls. Especially if you think about how to do it with CC powers.
There is only one guild that thinks that: "if the game mechanics technically allow it, then it's 'legit' ". But I won't name any names. These are the same people who brought you Ability Score adjustments, A certain Resonator Issue, and I am sure a bucketload more.
In regards to your behaviour towards PvP. Not everyone who PvPs is the same, and neither should you throw them all into the same bucket.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Please do not trash his name. That player is one of the nicest and most knowledgeable guys on the server.
He is not here anymore because he tested out a particular bug.
You don't know half the story of how the whole glitch was being done underground for months, the drama that led to it being exposed and casuals finally finding out on monday afternoon before the livestream. Please do not discuss matters that you have no idea about.