No I dont think it should be removed. I do however think that there needs to be a rework. Having the ability to perma invis should make them extremely vulnerable when out of stealth. As it is they can use ITC. I think that TR should have to choose between perma and defensive abilities while out of stealth. To make up for this TRs need a damage increase for either play style and a better way for non stealth rogues to be able to close in on people kiting. No serious player would ever complain about perma if they were able to kill them easily if they found them, all TR would be happy for a damage increase, and people that did not want to play perma would actually be somewhat viable in pvp.
Only PvP opinion:
"Perma TR" is only annoying class build. Basically this build is abusing game stats and mechanic.
But the worst part is, playing and being good "Perma TR" needs experienced player, but sadly the majority of users of this build are only "Perma TR WANNABIES". They are easy to kill, they cant kill barely anyone and also they cant hold a Node in PvP map. Team with these wannabies is mostly losing team. They are destroying fun for others and for themselves too.
Other part is, if you meet minority of really good "Perma TR" players. And the worst is, if this player is also very well geared. Then you cant do much, basically anything. Depend on your class, gear and playstyle you must decide if you stay on Node and nobody will get points from it or if you run away to different Node to get points and fight will visible and targetable enemies. Annoying and not fun at all.
Long story short, having "Perma TR" build in game brings less fun and more anger over enjoying playing TR or enjoying fighting vs it.
This build should be totaly prohibited, but also i understand that TR needs complete overhaul.
I can imagine something like this:
Stealth can be entered only out of combat. During stealth your movement will be reduced or via feats taken back to normal movement, but you cant never move faster than normaly. During stealth your powers will make increased dmg. When out of stealth, you will move faster and also can increase defense abilities for short period of time, but you cant enter stealth again during combat time. Time in stealth should be unlimited or for long period of time. Other options how to get out of stealth: you will attack or somebody will attack you via aoe dmg (blind attack). It isnt perfect, but it should be more tactical (still talking about PvP) and fun for both sides.
I don't see any reason why TRs can't do PvE either! Props for keeping it up!
Soloing, TR damage is relatively poor for a supposed DPS class, and my CW (without the bubble) tanks better than my TR. We have to use stealth in PVE. I still PVE but I'm not specced for Perma. My CW still facerolls mob groups that are a life-or-death struggle for my TR.
But you were replying to someone speaking exclusively about grouping, that's different. If nothing is hitting the TR, it's free to do other things... but that doesn't work solo.
Only PvP opinion:
"Perma TR" is only annoying class build. Basically this build is abusing game stats and mechanic.
But the worst part is, playing and being good "Perma TR" needs experienced player, but sadly the majority of users of this build are only "Perma TR WANNABIES". They are easy to kill, they cant kill barely anyone and also they cant hold a Node in PvP map. Team with these wannabies is mostly losing team. They are destroying fun for others and for themselves too.
Other part is, if you meet minority of really good "Perma TR" players. And the worst is, if this player is also very well geared. Then you cant do much, basically anything. Depend on your class, gear and playstyle you must decide if you stay on Node and nobody will get points from it or if you run away to different Node to get points and fight will visible and targetable enemies. Annoying and not fun at all.
Long story short, having "Perma TR" build in game brings less fun and more anger over enjoying playing TR or enjoying fighting vs it.
This build should be totaly prohibited, but also i understand that TR needs complete overhaul.
I can imagine something like this:
Stealth can be entered only out of combat. During stealth your movement will be reduced or via feats taken back to normal movement, but you cant never move faster than normaly. During stealth your powers will make increased dmg. When out of stealth, you will move faster and also can increase defense abilities for short period of time, but you cant enter stealth again during combat time. Time in stealth should be unlimited or for long period of time. Other options how to get out of stealth: you will attack or somebody will attack you via aoe dmg (blind attack). It isnt perfect, but it should be more tactical (still talking about PvP) and fun for both sides.
Abusive and pretentious is your whole post. It is really a wonder how people are limited in distinguish things. How your post shows you don't understand that TR using stealth is as any other using their tab. The thing is that unlike any other class TR has only tab and all else is useless while any other class has tab and many other skills. If you say such a incredible things as that TR abuses games cause he is using the only viable build... Then there comes very simple conclusion:Any class using their tab and/or best build/viable is abusing game.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Abusive and pretentious is your whole post. It is really a wonder how people are limited in distinguish things. How your post shows you don't understand that TR using stealth is as any other using their tab. The thing is that unlike any other class TR has only tab and all else is useless while any other class has tab and many other skills. If you say such a incredible things as that TR abuses games cause he is using the only viable build... Then there comes very simple conclusion:Any class using their tab and/or best build/viable is abusing game.
Yep, that's why I didn't even bother replying to that post...lol
TR is the most nerfed class in this game. It is also the weakest class, nearly destroyed. Anyone who makes threads about nerfing TR lost contact with reality.
This is not a "nerf TR" thread. Changes for TR's are coming, devs have already said so in this forum, dev blogs and even facebook, so it's not a matter of "don't talk about it and it won't happen". People have been complaining about permastealth for a long time so there is a big chance theses changes will have something regarding it. My intention with this thread was to share ideas with people that have fought with and as a perma, who know they are not unkillable and hope the devs read these opinions so they don't rework stealth to make perma unavailable. A nice suggestion someone wrote was to allow it with certain feats/paragon path. This way there would be enough room for improvements for damage and defense in other paragon trees without losing permastealth as a viable option as well.
It's pretty simple. If you think a class is ridiculously OP don't QQ, play it. Then you'll either gain the unfair advantage you think someone else has or you'll learn the class and understand its vulnerabilities. Either will make you a more experienced, well rounded player. Whining just makes people annoying.
I like the idea of them rebalancing the paragon paths so one of them is the perma stealth path which, just by its name should be master infiltrator, with the other one being the more combat oriented path. One thing I see being an issue with that though is ITC. Personally, I think that would have to be made available to all TRs or the majority of players are just going to go MI again so they can have a CC break.
Reason they are not as much an issue is because they have <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DPS and with mod 3 and mod 4 there is SO much DPS now that a TR caught outside stealth dies in 2 seconds.
So ALL they can do is hide and run around causing boring fights. Why no QQ? Because they cant kill anything, just cant BE killed.
I didnt vote because you didnt make it "Yes" or "No". If I could vote, id say NO - because they deal no damage. Or "No" BUT! it should be limited to one specific "tree". etc...
Srsly guys first u cryed about Impacts and LB then it got nerfed to death so no Power rogue is now viable in Top PVP. Other classes were at this moment much stronger with tenes enchants so player found a way to to kill at the beginning CW's and after they got nerfed GWF's. I know for PUG pvp atm it always looked like we are op but at the current state with bile fix it is against:
CW (Skill near Inna/Tempzy/Smigi etc) 30%70 chance to win
GWF's maybe 60%40 to win if it is a Destoryer u probalby take him down but if it is a senti u deal not enough dmg atm
HR's with theyr new burst 30%70 for HR (Skill near K4to/Frostbite etc)
DC? U cant kill them (Skill near Mantra/CaptainLolFred etc)
my current state in MOD4 havent played my tr long in MOD3 so maybe i need more theorycrafting and practicing to be more succesfull
Rember MOD1? we were pretty strong but GWFS and CW'S also with tenes
MOD2 all Power Rogues were forced to play at least Semi-Perma with PVP "Balancingpatch" but we totally dominated PVP with GWF's
MOD3 we were forced to switch from PoB too BS unless we had no chance against Roar abusers and HR's
Now in MOD4 i think it needs even more skill in Premades.
Most of the posts i just read is alway i am 12-14k and get trolled by permas they are so annyoing but just stands on node and spams every encounter they have ready and wondering y you dont hit us and cant kill us with 4 guys aon 1 node, if u are dumb enough and let my team cap the other nodes. Play2win watch Streams of good guilds like EoA/Chocolate/Tha Street etc and u will see other classes are succesfull against Permas or just play them out with teamplay and tactics.
you guys cryed about LB and Impact shots and as well HR's in MOD2.If u want for mod5 the Tr will be removed as perma we will get much more DMG as we did in mod1/2 and then this **** starts again?then a good Perma will be more powerfull as ever with rework! With your whining now we got Tr's as permas and HR in MOD4 as glass cannon u guys are lucky not much pug hr's have figured it out yet and CW is broken atm.
My advice dont remove perma from game it is really fun to play atm even if its sometims frustrating but change something for the PVE Tr's!!
And the tr's complaining about Perma play it and u will see if u want too kill people and not just block nodes by running around it requires a high amount of skill.
Watch this Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3WvaDKLsCs from Thranduil (Chocolate Shoppe) in mod 3.
I have no footage from me playing Tr but the first HR he fights on is me as Deadpool and 2 mates from my guild Black Turtle Gaming
Sry for my messed up english :P
Black Turtle TryhartzIV
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
I didnt vote because you didnt make it "Yes" or "No". If I could vote, id say NO - because they deal no damage. Or "No" BUT! it should be limited to one specific "tree". etc...
Yeah, my bad on that, should have written just yes vs no.
Regarding the ideas you wrote, I disagree on some because of personal taste, but I would still support the general concept of making paragon trees into separated stealth/damage options.
Abusive and pretentious is your whole post. It is really a wonder how people are limited in distinguish things. How your post shows you don't understand that TR using stealth is as any other using their tab. The thing is that unlike any other class TR has only tab and all else is useless while any other class has tab and many other skills. If you say such a incredible things as that TR abuses games cause he is using the only viable build... Then there comes very simple conclusion:Any class using their tab and/or best build/viable is abusing game.
Enlighten me and tell me, why is "Perma TR" build using high Intelligence stat around 19 (which is side stat and gives only recharge speed) also followed by Recovery (another recharge speed) with decent amount in items but mostly in enchant slots.? I guess it is because they want really low cooldowns over all other abilites. These low cooldowns are allowing them to do Stealth-Unkillable during nonstealth time-Stealth-Unkillable combo + dmg during whole time. Which is in my eyes abusing of game stats and mechanic because they are greatly avoiding prefered/intended cooldowns of powers and their use. You are just talking about Tab-ability, but it isnt only about it, it is more, how is the whole "Perma TR" build. So you dont know how is this build working (the base mechanic) or you are talking about very different build and we dont understand each other.
The Devs nerfed TR damage/defense and gave them +Stealth PVP armor. Clearly this "abuse" is Dev-intended.
Better say it is Dev-tolerated. Yes, they nerfed TR in some ways and yes they gave TR some kind of "Perma" build. But players were smarter than Devs (not surprising) and bypassed the intended build with high Int + Recovery (or did you see any post from Devs where they are advising players to minimalize cooldowns via Int+Recovery?). And because Devs dont have solution and new viable builds for TR now (it will come in M5), they MUST tolerate it just for now.
The devs obviously INTEND for long stealth durations. If you have ever played a TR, then you know this already.
Lurker's Assault
Bait and Switch
Tenacious Concealment
Gloaming Cut
Shadow Strike
Invisible Infiltrator
Twilight Adept
Improved Cunning Sneak
Sneaky Stabber
Battlefield Skulker Set Bonus
Dread Legion Set bonus
This is the list of things that extend stealth durations. The devs are not idiots -- they knew players would use a combination of the above list to make stealths last a really long time.
PS There already IS a paragon path for having long stealths: the Saboteur. No need to make one, we got it already, but thanks.
I have quite a few points to make. First I'll say that that I've been playing rogue since open beta. I discovered perma-stealth independently, on my own early on from PVE, about 2 months before the build really started to get popular.
First let me say that the original rogue was truly OP. If everything that has been nerfed was un-nerfed and introduced into the M4 arena, any skilled rogue would be owning so hard I wouldn't be surprised to see scores of 50-0. That pretty much speaks volumes about how much TR HAS been nerfed. If your having doubts about this let me explain.
Skilled, BIS rogue meets team of pug level players. Lurkers + flurry = 1 hit KO, full round of 12 COS shots(also from lurkers) = 1 hit KO, Pvorp lashing blade(from lurkers) = 1 hit KO. Now you might be skeptical about this so let me go into a bit more detail. COS damage was reduced to roughly half and also lost a 35% damage boost from the old lurkers(original was 60%, current is 25%).
Flurry has suffered 3 direct nerfs, one bug fix to a feat tree(deadly momentum), lost the damage boost from lurkers, and a bug fix to an enchant that interacted with it(bilethorn). I might add, bile thorn was only ever good in M3 because of all the previous nerfs to flurry. None of these nerfs were in any way, shape, or form, "slight". The bug fix to deadly momentum for instance, was originally +75% crit severity, it is now 15%. This crit severity is built from flurry, but adds to ALL of a rogue's damage. Two back to back flurries + lashing= game over for pretty much anyone. I would estimate that flurry damage potential has, with everything considered, been reduced by 60-80%. This is not to mention the heavy nerfs to shocking execution.
Now, was TR originally OP? Yes. Did they need to adjust rogues for PVP? Yes. Did they go too far? Yes. Should any of this have affected PVE? NO.
Now that this is out of the way, lets talk about M5. A resurrection of open beta TR would essentially mean giving them the ability to kill three people in a single rotation, when played to maximum potential. Obviously, this is way too much. One thing that people are going to have to accept however, is that a PROPERLY balanced, equally geared, low defense melee striker class is going to be able to kill a person in one rotation, including daily. This is going to be happening extremely often.
You can bet, that if a TR can land flurry on you, landing anything else is pretty much a cake walk. Ironically, there is probably going to be an adjustment period where a TR gets used to landing ANYTHING other than flurry. TRs fighting at the competitive level have essentially been fighting with one hand behind their back. I can already see TR players saying it's way too easy, and QQ threads from people fighting them. This is assuming a properly balanced rogue. Because a new player to the class fighting someone equally geared shouldn't get stomped like a cockroach.
In regards to stealth, I voted that perma-stealth should not be removed. Before people start flaming me, let me explain my motivation.
I have serious issues with perma-stealth for the following reasons. #1 For node contesting, I believe people have illuminated that issue already. #2 Only true viable playstyle for competitive PVP, and the skillcap that excludes beginners. #3 Countering it is a specific skillset which is pretty much only learned by someone quick on the uptake or has deep insight into the rogue class, the skillcap required to pull this off is determined by tools available to a given class.
Now, with regards to #3, in general it can lead to some very unsavory situations. However, it has been the source of THE most fun I have ever had in NW PVP. The all time, best, 1v1 matches I have ever had in NW was in M3 when I encountered a evenly geared CW without a bile enchant that had 0 problems going toe to toe with me, the fights were heavily tactical, involved blisteringly fast actions and counters, and victory or defeat was determined by a razor thin margin, the dominion match ended far too soon. Perma-stealth may be a big problem in a lot of ways, but it has been the source of a lot of examples of skilled play, which frankly I think NW could use a lot more of.
I actually have 0 problems with perma-stealth being removed so long as the rogue class is PROPERLY balanced in both PVE and PVP as a low defense, melee striker class. However, based on every mod so far, be understanding of my utter lack of faith in the devs ability or reasoning to do this, hence the reason for my vote.
I have quite a few points to make. First I'll say that that I've been playing rogue since open beta. I discovered perma-stealth independently, on my own early on from PVE, about 2 months before the build really started to get popular.
First let me say that the original rogue was truly OP. If everything that has been nerfed was un-nerfed and introduced into the M4 arena, any skilled rogue would be owning so hard I wouldn't be surprised to see scores of 50-0. That pretty much speaks volumes about how much TR HAS been nerfed. If your having doubts about this let me explain.
Skilled, BIS rogue meets team of pug level players. Lurkers + flurry = 1 hit KO, full round of 12 COS shots(also from lurkers) = 1 hit KO, Pvorp lashing blade(from lurkers) = 1 hit KO. Now you might be skeptical about this so let me go into a bit more detail. COS damage was reduced to roughly half and also lost a 35% damage boost from the old lurkers(original was 60%, current is 25%).
Flurry has suffered 3 direct nerfs, one bug fix to a feat tree(deadly momentum), lost the damage boost from lurkers, and a bug fix to an enchant that interacted with it(bilethorn). I might add, bile thorn was only ever good in M3 because of all the previous nerfs to flurry. None of these nerfs were in any way, shape, or form, "slight". The bug fix to deadly momentum for instance, was originally +75% crit severity, it is now 15%. This crit severity is built from flurry, but adds to ALL of a rogue's damage. Two back to back flurries + lashing= game over for pretty much anyone. I would estimate that flurry damage potential has, with everything considered, been reduced by 60-80%. This is not to mention the heavy nerfs to shocking execution.
Now, was TR originally OP? Yes. Did they need to adjust rogues for PVP? Yes. Did they go too far? Yes. Should any of this have affected PVE? NO.
Now that this is out of the way, lets talk about M5. A resurrection of open beta TR would essentially mean giving them the ability to kill three people in a single rotation, when played to maximum potential. Obviously, this is way too much. One thing that people are going to have to accept however, is that a PROPERLY balanced, equally geared, low defense melee striker class is going to be able to kill a person in one rotation, including daily. This is going to be happening extremely often.
You can bet, that if a TR can land flurry on you, landing anything else is pretty much a cake walk. Ironically, there is probably going to be an adjustment period where a TR gets used to landing ANYTHING other than flurry. TRs fighting at the competitive level have essentially been fighting with one hand behind their back. I can already see TR players saying it's way too easy, and QQ threads from people fighting them. This is assuming a properly balanced rogue. Because a new player to the class fighting someone equally geared shouldn't get stomped like a cockroach.
In regards to stealth, I voted that perma-stealth should not be removed. Before people start flaming me, let me explain my motivation.
I have serious issues with perma-stealth for the following reasons. #1 For node contesting, I believe people have illuminated that issue already. #2 Only true viable playstyle for competitive PVP, and the skillcap that excludes beginners. #3 Countering it is a specific skillset which is pretty much only learned by someone quick on the uptake or has deep insight into the rogue class, the skillcap required to pull this off is determined by tools available to a given class.
Now, with regards to #3, in general it can lead to some very unsavory situations. However, it has been the source of THE most fun I have ever had in NW PVP. The all time, best, 1v1 matches I have ever had in NW was in M3 when I encountered a evenly geared CW without a bile enchant that had 0 problems going toe to toe with me, the fights were heavily tactical, involved blisteringly fast actions and counters, and victory or defeat was determined by a razor thin margin, the dominion match ended far too soon. Perma-stealth may be a big problem in a lot of ways, but it has been the source of a lot of examples of skilled play, which frankly I think NW could use a lot more of.
I actually have 0 problems with perma-stealth being removed so long as the rogue class is PROPERLY balanced in both PVE and PVP as a low defense, melee striker class. However, based on every mod so far, be understanding of my utter lack of faith in the devs ability or reasoning to do this, hence the reason for my vote.
This is by far, my all time favourite Forum Post. +10000 to this.
from a Cw who has always enjoyed fighting rogues.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
No matter they can be countered or not, D&D and perma-stealth should not coexist.
0
reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2014
Perma stelath is a viable playstyle. Nothing is wrong with it, it has counters. Alot of people still cant seem to get around how to counter them.
A perma stealth is only dangerous offensively with high level weapon enchants on, which doesnt truly matter as a person is dangerous regardless of the playstyle with something like that.
The problem with rogues right now is many people feel thats the only viable method of play (which is really isnt). It should be an optional playstyle not a requirment.
Perma stelath is a viable playstyle. Nothing is wrong with it, it has counters. Alot of people still cant seem to get around how to counter them.
A perma stealth is only dangerous offensively with high level weapon enchants on, which doesnt truly matter as a person is dangerous regardless of the playstyle with something like that.
The problem with rogues right now is many people feel thats the only viable method of play (which is really isnt). It should be an optional playstyle not a requirment.
perma stealth doesnt need to go anywhere.
the problem is you cant counter them the problem is that they are toxic and anti fun
or if perma remains then remove ability to attack while maintaining stealth
Yes, TR can perform pretty well in PvE, have done some runs with them and if played well and with good gear, they bring good things to the party. But also you have to admit that a big part of the TR population have given up PvE after the damage nerfs, the popularity of AoE DPS classes and the fact that the class can still perform pretty well in PvP, even with bugs, more nerfs and OPness of certain classes in the last modules.
Indeed many people have "given up" on the TR. But I refuse to give up. It has been and still remains my favorite class. I am just getting excited about the changes that will be applied to the TR (and DC) in Mod 5.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
As a TR, perma-stealth is the only way for a TR to be effective at PvP. Fact is, it is a lot easier for a TR to get killed than to kill. Find one TR who doesn't perma-stealth that can be useful at PvP, even with the highest gear. One thing about TR's though, they're a pain in the ... to play as, and a pain in the ... to play against
Trust me, I don't enjoy perma stealth, by going perma-stealth you basically have to sacrafice two encounter powers and at least one of these "always running at the background" yellow powers. This makes most of the TR's simply clones of each other... and it sucks.
remake stealth to be unlimited duration but make attacking/getting hit x times or y dmg/interacting with objects(doors in dungeons) break it and unable to reenter stealth while in combat
remake stealth to be unlimited duration but make attacking/getting hit x times or y dmg/interacting with objects(doors in dungeons) break it and unable to reenter stealth while in combat
that kills pve usage.....not that there is much point to using it in pve anyways
that kills pve usage.....not that there is much point to using it in pve anyways
why ? you would be able to run through all zones ignoring monsters you dont need for quests, what more do you need from stealth ? run dungeons without killing trash ? not going to happen(hopefully)
i actually get the feeling that warlocks were a prototype for future changes to rogues/clerics.
for a non-dexterity class, they have some insane run speeds at the cost of not being able to actually dodge. they also have a potb encounter that actually is an aoe, but in melee range and at half strength (but aoe makes up for that so much). i just can't get it out of my head how similar warlocks and rogues are to play as yet completely different classes.
in comparison to clerics, warlocks can actually heal with at-wills without a clunky tab mechanic. now that i think about it, the potb aoe is almost exactly the same size as astral shield. they also have eldritch momentum which is suspiciously in the exact position as healing momentum for clerics and both restore stamina (difference being there is no cooldown on the warlock feat).
why ? you would be able to run through all zones ignoring monsters you dont need for quests, what more do you need from stealth ? run dungeons without killing trash ? not going to happen(hopefully)
for combat rogues, we use stealth to boost our encounters (which was 1 of the main points of stealth). without it, our encounters are a lot weaker. although, some stealth bonuses are utterly lackluster.
Yea perma stealth is a real annoyance but it's not like TRs can do anything else at this point, it's the result of too many nurfs and q.qs on the forums, and now we have a super ninja to contend with
Comments
remove perma and boost damage a little
or
dont remover perma but lower their damage
its so annoying to fight those perma who deal 10-20k lashing without even seeing them
"Perma TR" is only annoying class build. Basically this build is abusing game stats and mechanic.
But the worst part is, playing and being good "Perma TR" needs experienced player, but sadly the majority of users of this build are only "Perma TR WANNABIES". They are easy to kill, they cant kill barely anyone and also they cant hold a Node in PvP map. Team with these wannabies is mostly losing team. They are destroying fun for others and for themselves too.
Other part is, if you meet minority of really good "Perma TR" players. And the worst is, if this player is also very well geared. Then you cant do much, basically anything. Depend on your class, gear and playstyle you must decide if you stay on Node and nobody will get points from it or if you run away to different Node to get points and fight will visible and targetable enemies. Annoying and not fun at all.
Long story short, having "Perma TR" build in game brings less fun and more anger over enjoying playing TR or enjoying fighting vs it.
This build should be totaly prohibited, but also i understand that TR needs complete overhaul.
I can imagine something like this:
Stealth can be entered only out of combat. During stealth your movement will be reduced or via feats taken back to normal movement, but you cant never move faster than normaly. During stealth your powers will make increased dmg. When out of stealth, you will move faster and also can increase defense abilities for short period of time, but you cant enter stealth again during combat time. Time in stealth should be unlimited or for long period of time. Other options how to get out of stealth: you will attack or somebody will attack you via aoe dmg (blind attack). It isnt perfect, but it should be more tactical (still talking about PvP) and fun for both sides.
Soloing, TR damage is relatively poor for a supposed DPS class, and my CW (without the bubble) tanks better than my TR. We have to use stealth in PVE. I still PVE but I'm not specced for Perma. My CW still facerolls mob groups that are a life-or-death struggle for my TR.
But you were replying to someone speaking exclusively about grouping, that's different. If nothing is hitting the TR, it's free to do other things... but that doesn't work solo.
Abusive and pretentious is your whole post. It is really a wonder how people are limited in distinguish things. How your post shows you don't understand that TR using stealth is as any other using their tab. The thing is that unlike any other class TR has only tab and all else is useless while any other class has tab and many other skills. If you say such a incredible things as that TR abuses games cause he is using the only viable build... Then there comes very simple conclusion:Any class using their tab and/or best build/viable is abusing game.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Yep, that's why I didn't even bother replying to that post...lol
This is not a "nerf TR" thread. Changes for TR's are coming, devs have already said so in this forum, dev blogs and even facebook, so it's not a matter of "don't talk about it and it won't happen". People have been complaining about permastealth for a long time so there is a big chance theses changes will have something regarding it. My intention with this thread was to share ideas with people that have fought with and as a perma, who know they are not unkillable and hope the devs read these opinions so they don't rework stealth to make perma unavailable. A nice suggestion someone wrote was to allow it with certain feats/paragon path. This way there would be enough room for improvements for damage and defense in other paragon trees without losing permastealth as a viable option as well.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
The Devs nerfed TR damage/defense and gave them +Stealth PVP armor. Clearly this "abuse" is Dev-intended.
So ALL they can do is hide and run around causing boring fights. Why no QQ? Because they cant kill anything, just cant BE killed.
I didnt vote because you didnt make it "Yes" or "No". If I could vote, id say NO - because they deal no damage. Or "No" BUT! it should be limited to one specific "tree". etc...
I have detailed out my suggestions to TR and its not meant to be encompassing but what I think SHOULD change in regards to stealth.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?740881-State-of-Mod-4-PvP-quot-ELO-quot-and-Class-Balance&p=8846651&viewfull=1#post8846651
If you want to remove perma give us old Rogue back or at least something close.
I can't believe people are still on TR's **** when we have CW's and HR's frustrating people even more loll
CW (Skill near Inna/Tempzy/Smigi etc) 30%70 chance to win
GWF's maybe 60%40 to win if it is a Destoryer u probalby take him down but if it is a senti u deal not enough dmg atm
HR's with theyr new burst 30%70 for HR (Skill near K4to/Frostbite etc)
DC? U cant kill them (Skill near Mantra/CaptainLolFred etc)
my current state in MOD4 havent played my tr long in MOD3 so maybe i need more theorycrafting and practicing to be more succesfull
Rember MOD1? we were pretty strong but GWFS and CW'S also with tenes
MOD2 all Power Rogues were forced to play at least Semi-Perma with PVP "Balancingpatch" but we totally dominated PVP with GWF's
MOD3 we were forced to switch from PoB too BS unless we had no chance against Roar abusers and HR's
Now in MOD4 i think it needs even more skill in Premades.
Most of the posts i just read is alway i am 12-14k and get trolled by permas they are so annyoing but just stands on node and spams every encounter they have ready and wondering y you dont hit us and cant kill us with 4 guys aon 1 node, if u are dumb enough and let my team cap the other nodes. Play2win watch Streams of good guilds like EoA/Chocolate/Tha Street etc and u will see other classes are succesfull against Permas or just play them out with teamplay and tactics.
you guys cryed about LB and Impact shots and as well HR's in MOD2.If u want for mod5 the Tr will be removed as perma we will get much more DMG as we did in mod1/2 and then this **** starts again?then a good Perma will be more powerfull as ever with rework! With your whining now we got Tr's as permas and HR in MOD4 as glass cannon u guys are lucky not much pug hr's have figured it out yet and CW is broken atm.
My advice dont remove perma from game it is really fun to play atm even if its sometims frustrating but change something for the PVE Tr's!!
And the tr's complaining about Perma play it and u will see if u want too kill people and not just block nodes by running around it requires a high amount of skill.
Watch this Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3WvaDKLsCs from Thranduil (Chocolate Shoppe) in mod 3.
I have no footage from me playing Tr but the first HR he fights on is me as Deadpool and 2 mates from my guild Black Turtle Gaming
Sry for my messed up english :P
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
Yeah, my bad on that, should have written just yes vs no.
Regarding the ideas you wrote, I disagree on some because of personal taste, but I would still support the general concept of making paragon trees into separated stealth/damage options.
HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
SW Soulbinder Fury
Better say it is Dev-tolerated. Yes, they nerfed TR in some ways and yes they gave TR some kind of "Perma" build. But players were smarter than Devs (not surprising) and bypassed the intended build with high Int + Recovery (or did you see any post from Devs where they are advising players to minimalize cooldowns via Int+Recovery?). And because Devs dont have solution and new viable builds for TR now (it will come in M5), they MUST tolerate it just for now.
Lurker's Assault
Bait and Switch
Tenacious Concealment
Gloaming Cut
Shadow Strike
Invisible Infiltrator
Twilight Adept
Improved Cunning Sneak
Sneaky Stabber
Battlefield Skulker Set Bonus
Dread Legion Set bonus
This is the list of things that extend stealth durations. The devs are not idiots -- they knew players would use a combination of the above list to make stealths last a really long time.
PS There already IS a paragon path for having long stealths: the Saboteur. No need to make one, we got it already, but thanks.
First let me say that the original rogue was truly OP. If everything that has been nerfed was un-nerfed and introduced into the M4 arena, any skilled rogue would be owning so hard I wouldn't be surprised to see scores of 50-0. That pretty much speaks volumes about how much TR HAS been nerfed. If your having doubts about this let me explain.
Skilled, BIS rogue meets team of pug level players. Lurkers + flurry = 1 hit KO, full round of 12 COS shots(also from lurkers) = 1 hit KO, Pvorp lashing blade(from lurkers) = 1 hit KO. Now you might be skeptical about this so let me go into a bit more detail. COS damage was reduced to roughly half and also lost a 35% damage boost from the old lurkers(original was 60%, current is 25%).
Flurry has suffered 3 direct nerfs, one bug fix to a feat tree(deadly momentum), lost the damage boost from lurkers, and a bug fix to an enchant that interacted with it(bilethorn). I might add, bile thorn was only ever good in M3 because of all the previous nerfs to flurry. None of these nerfs were in any way, shape, or form, "slight". The bug fix to deadly momentum for instance, was originally +75% crit severity, it is now 15%. This crit severity is built from flurry, but adds to ALL of a rogue's damage. Two back to back flurries + lashing= game over for pretty much anyone. I would estimate that flurry damage potential has, with everything considered, been reduced by 60-80%. This is not to mention the heavy nerfs to shocking execution.
Now, was TR originally OP? Yes. Did they need to adjust rogues for PVP? Yes. Did they go too far? Yes. Should any of this have affected PVE? NO.
Now that this is out of the way, lets talk about M5. A resurrection of open beta TR would essentially mean giving them the ability to kill three people in a single rotation, when played to maximum potential. Obviously, this is way too much. One thing that people are going to have to accept however, is that a PROPERLY balanced, equally geared, low defense melee striker class is going to be able to kill a person in one rotation, including daily. This is going to be happening extremely often.
You can bet, that if a TR can land flurry on you, landing anything else is pretty much a cake walk. Ironically, there is probably going to be an adjustment period where a TR gets used to landing ANYTHING other than flurry. TRs fighting at the competitive level have essentially been fighting with one hand behind their back. I can already see TR players saying it's way too easy, and QQ threads from people fighting them. This is assuming a properly balanced rogue. Because a new player to the class fighting someone equally geared shouldn't get stomped like a cockroach.
In regards to stealth, I voted that perma-stealth should not be removed. Before people start flaming me, let me explain my motivation.
I have serious issues with perma-stealth for the following reasons. #1 For node contesting, I believe people have illuminated that issue already. #2 Only true viable playstyle for competitive PVP, and the skillcap that excludes beginners. #3 Countering it is a specific skillset which is pretty much only learned by someone quick on the uptake or has deep insight into the rogue class, the skillcap required to pull this off is determined by tools available to a given class.
Now, with regards to #3, in general it can lead to some very unsavory situations. However, it has been the source of THE most fun I have ever had in NW PVP. The all time, best, 1v1 matches I have ever had in NW was in M3 when I encountered a evenly geared CW without a bile enchant that had 0 problems going toe to toe with me, the fights were heavily tactical, involved blisteringly fast actions and counters, and victory or defeat was determined by a razor thin margin, the dominion match ended far too soon. Perma-stealth may be a big problem in a lot of ways, but it has been the source of a lot of examples of skilled play, which frankly I think NW could use a lot more of.
I actually have 0 problems with perma-stealth being removed so long as the rogue class is PROPERLY balanced in both PVE and PVP as a low defense, melee striker class. However, based on every mod so far, be understanding of my utter lack of faith in the devs ability or reasoning to do this, hence the reason for my vote.
This is by far, my all time favourite Forum Post. +10000 to this.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
A perma stealth is only dangerous offensively with high level weapon enchants on, which doesnt truly matter as a person is dangerous regardless of the playstyle with something like that.
The problem with rogues right now is many people feel thats the only viable method of play (which is really isnt). It should be an optional playstyle not a requirment.
perma stealth doesnt need to go anywhere.
the problem is you cant counter them the problem is that they are toxic and anti fun
or if perma remains then remove ability to attack while maintaining stealth
Indeed many people have "given up" on the TR. But I refuse to give up. It has been and still remains my favorite class. I am just getting excited about the changes that will be applied to the TR (and DC) in Mod 5.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Trust me, I don't enjoy perma stealth, by going perma-stealth you basically have to sacrafice two encounter powers and at least one of these "always running at the background" yellow powers. This makes most of the TR's simply clones of each other... and it sucks.
that kills pve usage.....not that there is much point to using it in pve anyways
why ? you would be able to run through all zones ignoring monsters you dont need for quests, what more do you need from stealth ? run dungeons without killing trash ? not going to happen(hopefully)
for a non-dexterity class, they have some insane run speeds at the cost of not being able to actually dodge. they also have a potb encounter that actually is an aoe, but in melee range and at half strength (but aoe makes up for that so much). i just can't get it out of my head how similar warlocks and rogues are to play as yet completely different classes.
in comparison to clerics, warlocks can actually heal with at-wills without a clunky tab mechanic. now that i think about it, the potb aoe is almost exactly the same size as astral shield. they also have eldritch momentum which is suspiciously in the exact position as healing momentum for clerics and both restore stamina (difference being there is no cooldown on the warlock feat).
for combat rogues, we use stealth to boost our encounters (which was 1 of the main points of stealth). without it, our encounters are a lot weaker. although, some stealth bonuses are utterly lackluster.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
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