Should perma stealth really be taken away from the game?

ychiaki

Note: Given the whole class has been almost completely relegated to PvP I suppose opinions should be mostly (but not only) considered towards that aspect of the game.

Since the perma stealth build became popular several months ago (a year or so, not sure) it has slowly turned into a "classic" characteristic of the game, especially pvp wise. At the beginning it was awful and ridiculously OP given the damage the class had and stealth as the ultimate defense, but time changes things (and nerfs too) and nowadays tricksters are no longer a "supreme dominator". These last months you can no longer find as many QQ threads abouth permastealth cause I feel (and that's the purpose of this poll) community has evolved and now is able to counter it.

Devs have already stated they have changes coming to both DC and TR, and regarding TR some got the conclusion that it will be a stealth rework, but first I wanted to read some of your opinions.

Should perma stealth (even semi perma) really be taken away from the game?

Personally, at the beginning it was really hard for me to come up with strategies to stand against permas, but now I can do it and even more, I actually enjoy fighting them. And not cause they are weak or an easy kill but because it kind of involves some thinking, at least. I made a trickster myself to learn how it works and understood more about the mechanincs of permastealth, so I could be able to fight them without relying on certain abilities or gear (and also had lots of fun playing it). I consider them a nice feature of the game, unintended and wrong at first, but that has turned to be an essential and strong mechanic of this game.
(sorry for my english)

hoofit

They should be yes its a no brainer perma ruins pvp who cant kill from being stealthed and when out of stealth there immune and then back into stealth and if damaged they heal there a joke and not fair in pvp. you cant hit what you can never see even if you uncloak them its useless. so yep get rid of perma its easy

charononus

No, it's the only viable build for TR's. Get rid of it and you might as well delete the class.

hamletswords

It's a truly unique feature of Neverwinter PVP. And it's counterable.

I'd say keep it for sure, but the reason I'd be hesitant is there's tons of threads from TRs who don't want to be forced to play it.

burkaanc

perma stealth should be removed, they arent impossible to kill but permastealth is toxic to gameplay and anti fun(at least to other players)

hefisdo

Not because it's impossible to kill, but because it's annoying.

magiquepurse

Leave it as it is. I once thought it should be changed but after playing TR for a while I am more sympathetic to the class and understand its difficulties.

At least CWs and HRs have the tools to deal with permas. If you cannot do it, it is a l2p issue or a gear difference.

iliveforpvp

Can I vote twice? I do believe they should be removed from the game for the simple fact that they annoy and frustrate everyone. However, it SHOULD NOT BE REMOVED WITHOUT BUFFING TR DAMAGE AND DRFENSES. I think most people would love to see the return of power TRs and the lack of permas.

cryptfoundation

Take it away and buff the TR. Even perma players don't want it anymore they just want to be viable....

cryptfoundation

Not gonna vote because I can kill them though

ychiaki

Sorry, description for options was a mistake, not sure if it can be edited

kvet

No, it shouldn't be taken away.

On the same token -- HR range should be limited to the same range any other ranged toon has (also the CW feat to increase range should be removed). GWF should no longer get the benefit of temporary hitpoints since, of course they are a striker class not a tank, GFs should have all their damage cut in half while getting a boost to Defense. SWs... hm. no, about right... DCs? They shouldn't be able to do any damage because they're healers. CWs shouldn't be able to freeze anyone -- OR -- their DPS should be reduced substantially since they are a CONTROL wizard not a MURDER wizard.

Absurd? Yes, of course it is. All of it. Just because one finds it annoying that one can't win against stealthed TRs (say you can? but you posted a thread/reply/rant to QQ over them.. so.. I call BS on that) doesn't mean they should suffer more reductions. TRs CAN be handled if you know what you're doing. Learn to play your character better -- it would be time much better spent. (note, this isn't directed at the OP necessarily, but rather to all the people ranting and crying over permas)

grogthemagnif

The Permastealth problem is directly proportional to the amount of PvP you play and whether or not the Permastealth TR is on your side only, against you only or on both sides.

krolk8888

kvet wrote: »

No, it shouldn't be taken away.

On the same token -- HR range should be limited to the same range any other ranged toon has (also the CW feat to increase range should be removed). GWF should no longer get the benefit of temporary hitpoints since, of course they are a striker class not a tank, GFs should have all their damage cut in half while getting a boost to Defense. SWs... hm. no, about right... DCs? They shouldn't be able to do any damage because they're healers. CWs shouldn't be able to freeze anyone -- OR -- their DPS should be reduced substantially since they are a CONTROL wizard not a MURDER wizard.

Absurd? Yes, of course it is. All of it. Just because one finds it annoying that one can't win against stealthed TRs (say you can? but you posted a thread/reply/rant to QQ over them.. so.. I call BS on that) doesn't mean they should suffer more reductions. TRs CAN be handled if you know what you're doing. Learn to play your character better -- it would be time much better spent. (note, this isn't directed at the OP necessarily, but rather to all the people ranting and crying over permas)

Did you actually read the thread maker's post?He actually said that he has no trouble whatsoever with perma stealth TR's,and the thread is not a QQ thread,just a legimate poll over the "do players want perma TR's to be a thing or not".

As for the removal of perma TR's i voted no.

They could(i repeat could not should) be removed as a playstyle only if TR's got a lot of buffs so they're viable without it.But then,stealth is rogue's trademark so im not sure what niche'd be for them to occupy if stealth was to be taken away...CW's and archery/trapper HR's fill the "heavy ranged CC'er and DPS'er,GF's,GWF's and combat HR's fill the "melee burst tank striker" roles and DC's + SW's sorta have the "healing&ranged dps" role.The only things left for TR's are deflection based tank(75% severity),which'd strip combat HR's of its identity or stealth which is currently in the game.

So no,dont remove,at least not without overall and huge buffs and revamp to TR's.

bobherkamer

Add a movement slow to them and it should be fine.

The longer you are stealth the slower your movement.

hefisdo

I think it's redundant to call for TR/DC buffs while they said they're going to change some stuff on them.

I'm sure they're going to get buffs; I think that's good, but I also think that fighting against a perma-stealth TR is annoying, and not even the TRs like that build anymore.

What I mean is: we're not talking about the class, we're talking about the build.

myowmyow

ychiaki wrote: »

Note: Given the whole class has been almost completely relegated to PvP I suppose opinions should be mostly (but not only) considered towards that aspect of the game.

LOL! I never PvP and do pretty well in PvE with my TR. And I do not use permastealth. My build goes for max DPS and deflect.

matthiasthehun76

Perma stealth should disappear forever. The once who say that this is the only viable TR build are not correct, i have many TR playing fiends, who can play a good TR in PVP and PVE too. Perma is only easier, so if perma would go, you perma players would have to work and build some skills, no more GOD MODE.

kvet

krolk8888 wrote: »

Did you actually read the thread maker's post?

kvet wrote: »

(note, this isn't directed at the OP necessarily, but rather to all the people ranting and crying over permas)

I sure did, but... You apparently didn't read mine... anyway...

macjae had some very good suggestions actually. I've long advocated making the paragon paths much more substantial in what they allow classes to do and not do. The closes thing I've seen so far is the CW where you basically pick between fire magic or lightning magic. You could easily have one paragon path for a TR that is low DPS but high stealth, and another one that his high DPS and limited stealth. It would mean very limited stealth for all TRs pre-paragon, but that doesn't really seem like a big deal to me.

myowmyow

macjae wrote: »

The most annoying part of permastealth TRs isn't that they exist, but that there are so many stupid pugs that gang up on them to clear the node. In that circumstance, it basically relies on the stupidity of the opposing team to win games. Of course, it doesn't work like that with more experienced players or in premades. Apart from basically exploiting stupidity, permastealth isn't currently all that imbalanced per se.

TRs as a class should get an overhaul, though. Permastealth should still be possible and viable, but it should be tied deeply into one of the paragon paths, while the other paragon paths focus on pure damage and utility/cc. Something like the capstone feat allowing for full stealth refills, which should otherwise be removed or reduced from Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike. Other TR paths should be compensated with more cc, non-stealth-based defenses and higher damage output.

They also need to keep stealth working in a way that allows other players to actively work to counter it; i.e. inflicting damage to a TR should wear it down, or detection range should increase for a short time by moving close to the TR, or some other way of allowing players to work actively to be able to reveal or target the TR. Basically, there should be some more back-and-forth with giving players tools to counter abilities like this.

One other alternative would perhaps be consumables players could buy to increase detection range for a short time. Like Dust of Appearance -- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofAppearance -- a classic D&D item. It could be akin to a potion you buy, for like 15 glory per pop, or like a permanent charged item like Tymora's Lucky Coin. The Lantern of Revelation was probably intended to fill a niche like this, but after the cooldown was standardized, it became far too infrequent to be useful for this. Obviously, adding something like this would have a lot of different consequences. The main thing is that players should have access to more tools to counter stealth; the trade-off for adding this could be giving TRs better core combat abilities outside of stealth. However, this would also have the consequence of reducing the skill required to successfully fight against permastealth TRs.

Excellent suggestions for the permastealth paragon path - remove some of the damage potential at the expense of being able to retain extended stealth.

cerberobot

I'm not playing TR at all, but I'd like to keep the perma-stealth, but, which would requires more skill than atm, i'm not talking about "nerf" but about the positioning, not very needed atm. It's an interesting style play who can counter a lot of people who are unexp, but it should have at least one or two weaknesses in the stealth spotting, because good played it can be too much powerfull. But keeping that is a good thing, the rogue leaves his "assassin 3 shot role" as a "shadow assassin in a long duration".
Atm there are just some balancing to do like the stealth spotting, and he would be fine.

ychiaki

myowmyow wrote: »

LOL! I never PvP and do pretty well in PvE with my TR. And I do not use permastealth. My build goes for max DPS and deflect.

Yes, TR can perform pretty well in PvE, have done some runs with them and if played well and with good gear, they bring good things to the party. But also you have to admit that a big part of the TR population have given up PvE after the damage nerfs, the popularity of AoE DPS classes and the fact that the class can still perform pretty well in PvP, even with bugs, more nerfs and OPness of certain classes in the last modules.

matthiasthehun76

Or let them stay, but forbid the combination of reasonable to high damage, perfect vorpal, bilethorn, some artifacts (they abuse), regen, high life steal and halfling.

Now a "very good" perma can be killed only few times compared to other classes. It can be done, but the moment you catch them and they would die, a pro perma activates stealth, regens in a corner and comes back in stealth, builds up his daily and bumm hits you in the back and a squishy char is dead. Insane thing.

In my eyes a perma isn't a real TR, maybe because i'm an old school DnD player.

Gave up on IWD pvp quests, because i had my noise full of perma hordes running down on me over and over again.

I have issued it long ago, to have true sight around nodes, this too cloud help solve the perma question.

ychiaki

macjae wrote: »

The most annoying part of permastealth TRs isn't that they exist, but that there are so many stupid pugs that gang up on them to clear the node. In that circumstance, it basically relies on the stupidity of the opposing team to win games. Of course, it doesn't work like that with more experienced players or in premades. Apart from basically exploiting stupidity, permastealth isn't currently all that imbalanced per se.

TRs as a class should get an overhaul, though. Permastealth should still be possible and viable, but it should be tied deeply into one of the paragon paths, while the other paragon paths focus on pure damage and utility/cc. Something like the capstone feat allowing for full stealth refills, which should otherwise be removed or reduced from Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike. Other TR paths should be compensated with more cc, non-stealth-based defenses and higher damage output.

They also need to keep stealth working in a way that allows other players to actively work to counter it; i.e. inflicting damage to a TR should wear it down, or detection range should increase for a short time by moving close to the TR, or some other way of allowing players to work actively to be able to reveal or target the TR. Basically, there should be some more back-and-forth with giving players tools to counter abilities like this.

One other alternative would perhaps be consumables players could buy to increase detection range for a short time. Like Dust of Appearance -- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofAppearance -- a classic D&D item. It could be akin to a potion you buy, for like 15 glory per pop, or like a permanent charged item like Tymora's Lucky Coin. The Lantern of Revelation was probably intended to fill a niche like this, but after the cooldown was standardized, it became far too infrequent to be useful for this. Obviously, adding something like this would have a lot of different consequences. The main thing is that players should have access to more tools to counter stealth; the trade-off for adding this could be giving TRs better core combat abilities outside of stealth. However, this would also have the consequence of reducing the skill required to successfully fight against permastealth TRs.

Now this is the kind of reply I was looking for! Permastealth would be a lot easier to moderate if it was something intended. Reworking feats and/or paragon paths to make it viable with certain builds specified by devs would allow other trees to be more focused on dealing damage, something trickster need to recover in a lot of abilities.

rashylewizz

Perma stealth should be taken away from open world pvp, but not regular domination (there is a good compromise to be had there)

arontimes

Permastealth is bad not because it's uncounterable, but because it's incredibly unfun for both the perma rogue and his or her opponent. From the rogue's perspective, one slip up and he or she dies a horrible, horrible death. From the enemy's perspective, the rogue is invulnerable because he or she can't be targeted and it's really frustrating not being able to do anything while the rogue's poor dps chisels at your health.

Furthermore, there's nothing stealthy about permastealth rogues. Stealth means more than not being seen. It means that your opponents don't even know that you're there. Stealth in Neverwinter is not like stealth in other games where you can flush out sneaky characters by, for example, bombarding the area with heavy firepower. Stealth in Neverwinter not only makes rogues invisible, but it makes them untargetable and therefore invulnerable.

Make them more like archer rangers in Module 4, who have to rely on actual stealth and sneakiness to be able to bring down the enemy. I have a 13k archer ranger, which is about mid-level when compared to the more serious PvP players, and I can melt the entire enemy team, one unfortunate victim at a time, if I take the enemy by surprise. However, if I am seen and targeted, I go down faster than a wet tissue paper golem. Stealth in this case means sniping from unusual positions and moving around ever so often so the enemy doesn't get wise to my vantage point. It's not about being invisible and untargetable and thus unkillable.

captfrancis

Stealth is the only thing we have left.

People whined and the Devs listened, repeatedly nerfing the TR class over and over into the 'hide or die' class it is today. If you want perma gone too, we need our damage back. You can't just have us as free-kill target dummies.

Hiding is not what I signed up for when I rolled this class a year ago, it's the role the QQers and Devs forced upon us. (For the QQers, a case of "Careful what you wish for, you may get it.") If you're going to take that away too, we need something back. I'd like my damage and defense back.

unstableviking

hoofit wrote: »

They should be yes its a no brainer perma ruins pvp who cant kill from being stealthed and when out of stealth there immune and then back into stealth and if damaged they heal there a joke and not fair in pvp. you cant hit what you can never see even if you uncloak them its useless. so yep get rid of perma its easy

REALLY?? Have you played a TR?? We have NO AOE, except for a slight bit from ONE power that pushes up Blades from the ground. We cannot go UNSTOPPABLE, Freeze or immobilize, block attacks, hit you from a ranged position (that will do enough damage to even make a difference) or heal ourselves effectively enough to survive in battle. STEALTH is all we have to defend.. you take that away and we no longer exist.

crusherbeast

ychiaki wrote: »

Note: Given the whole class has been almost completely relegated to PvP I suppose opinions should be mostly (but not only) considered towards that aspect of the game.

Since the perma stealth build became popular several months ago (a year or so, not sure) it has slowly turned into a "classic" characteristic of the game, especially pvp wise. At the beginning it was awful and ridiculously OP given the damage the class had and stealth as the ultimate defense, but time changes things (and nerfs too) and nowadays tricksters are no longer a "supreme dominator". These last months you can no longer find as many QQ threads abouth permastealth cause I feel (and that's the purpose of this poll) community has evolved and now is able to counter it.

Devs have already stated they have changes coming to both DC and TR, and regarding TR some got the conclusion that it will be a stealth rework, but first I wanted to read some of your opinions.

Should perma stealth (even semi perma) really be taken away from the game?

Personally, at the beginning it was really hard for me to come up with strategies to stand against permas, but now I can do it and even more, I actually enjoy fighting them. And not cause they are weak or an easy kill but because it kind of involves some thinking, at least. I made a trickster myself to learn how it works and understood more about the mechanincs of permastealth, so I could be able to fight them without relying on certain abilities or gear (and also had lots of fun playing it). I consider them a nice feature of the game, unintended and wrong at first, but that has turned to be an essential and strong mechanic of this game.
(sorry for my english)

TR is the most nerfed class in this game. It is also the weakest class, nearly destroyed. Anyone who makes threads about nerfing TR lost contact with reality.

izidius

Let them nerf it, will be funny when this becomes the new OP class flavor of the month then more tears will stream upon these forums.

iliveforpvp

ychiaki wrote: »

Yes, TR can perform pretty well in PvE, have done some runs with them and if played well and with good gear, they bring good things to the party. But also you have to admit that a big part of the TR population have given up PvE after the damage nerfs, the popularity of AoE DPS classes and the fact that the class can still perform pretty well in PvP, even with bugs, more nerfs and OPness of certain classes in the last modules.

I don't see any reason why TRs can't do PvE either! Props for keeping it up!