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Is Cryptic actually interested in "fixing" the economy?

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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    They are dropping a bit, but not much. Just remember, no one is forcing you to buy from the AH, if more people knew that, prices would be more reasonable. As long as there's one person willing to shell out a million for an lesser enchantment, it's going to stay that price. Be smart, be patient, if you don't agree with the price then let it fall back on the seller. Like many things, always be able to walk away from an unreasonable offer.

    That's one of those things that doesn't translate to gaming economies from real life economies. There are too many impatient or unknowlegble people for it to work. Look at gmop being sold on the AH for over 100k, and they sell.
  • iandarkswordiandarksword Member Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    That's one of those things that doesn't translate to gaming economies from real life economies. There are too many impatient or unknowlegble people for it to work. Look at gmop of power being sold on the AH for over 100k, and they sell.

    You mean the same ones that drop from Death Forge? For free? Or is it Dread Spire? Not that it really matters...
    "I don't know, I'm making it up as I go..."
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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    You mean the same ones that drop from Death Forge? For free? Or is it Dread Spire? Not that it really matters...

    No the ones that are sold from the wondrous bazaar for 100k. had a typo in the post that you responded to that probably increased your confusion though.
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    Just checked.

    No.

    I CAN say that the "skipping" of the ZAX for posting overinflated coal wards on the AH is alive and well, however. The first 24 listings of coal wards are from the same user, who has them at 566k each. Obviously, it gets much much worse the further down the list you look.

    I think we'll have to wait until some time after mod 4 hits to make an honest assessment of the economy and what is truly happening besides "it's buggered". There are going to be weird market conditions for a little while here with a "forced" influx of new players trying it out, etc.


    Actually, I think the AD price for wards is too low. I think it belongs around 1 million, maybe 1.2, since that's where I think Zen would stabilize (1000-1200:1, so $8-10/million) as a floor, with a gradual ramp over time (as AD inflation will demand that the same dollar spend gets the buyer more AD to keep the same net purchasing power) in the near term if it was set free to do so.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    Actually, I think the AD price for wards is too low. I think it belongs around 1 million, maybe 1.2, since that's where I think Zen would stabilize (1000-1200:1, so $8-10/million) as a floor, with a gradual ramp over time (as AD inflation will demand that the same dollar spend gets the buyer more AD to keep the same net purchasing power) in the near term if it was set free to do so.

    No sane player would keep with the game at those prices and no new player would play more than a week after hitting level cap. That would destroy the game and the company.
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    Actually, I think the AD price for wards is too low. I think it belongs around 1 million, maybe 1.2, since that's where I think Zen would stabilize (1000-1200:1, so $8-10/million) as a floor, with a gradual ramp over time (as AD inflation will demand that the same dollar spend gets the buyer more AD to keep the same net purchasing power) in the near term if it was set free to do so.

    Stabilizing the economy doesn't mean skyrocketing the prices, besides one of the important items would be traded for something else. Now when the Keys are bound there's little to do in order to keep the stable economy.

    What I'd suggest is to limit the amounts of items that one person can place on AH, especially potion-wise. I've seen one person with multiple characters completely dominating the AH for Major potions of healing and adding more than 40 items, constantly undercutting whenever someone posts five or six of the same kind.

    Which means that you end up having either to run 7-8 PKs when it's the DD event or take your time and run one for the epics 400k+. After a while it becomes monotonous.
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  • mystagoguemystagogue Member Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Does Cryptic/PW want to fix the economy - why of course, yes!

    The real question, however, is do they want to fix it in the manner much/most of the community thinks it needs to be fixed...
  • ryonasryonas Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 158 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The only idea can come to my mind to stop the backlog is limiting the purchase of zen

    example:

    For Zen buyers on whole account can only buy per day 3000 Zen and till his offer is fulfilled he can not issue more orders

    so how much would that be 3000 X 500 = 1.5 Million AD offered

    This step if taken would help in limiting the backlog , distribute the zen offered to be sold to the whole economy equally

    Some one might say they gonna create multiple accounts and still pass the problem
    i would say use cryptic guard that associates IP-Address to accounts and collect all accounts with same IP-Address and investigate these accounts if they got money through exploiting ban all these accounts

    after all who would reveal his IP-Address to others


    of course the number of zen to be bought is subject to change like 1k or 2k zen up to the community to discuss
  • anharmonanharmon Member Posts: 175
    edited August 2014
    ryonas wrote: »
    Some one might say they gonna create multiple accounts and still pass the problem
    i would say use cryptic guard that associates IP-Address to accounts and collect all accounts with same IP-Address and investigate these accounts if they got money through exploiting ban all these accounts

    after all who would reveal his IP-Address to others

    IP Address banning does not (and as far as I am concerned, never has) worked. This method becomes an annoyance because it forces people to go through multiple accounts, but doesn't stop people from making multiple accounts.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Right now the simple problem is ZEN>>>>>>AD. Until AD becomes valuable and there's some balance to the equation, nothing is going to help the economy stabilize.

    One idea I had was to do the weekly sales, but put them directly in game at the Wondrous Bazaar, with a discounted price set according to the current exchange. So if you put a 1000 Zen item on sales, and the exchange is stuck at 500:1, you price it at 500,000 AD plus any special discount. If it was on sale for 30% off, then it's 350,000 AD.

    This does two things. One, it drains AD directly from the system. Two, if people want to buy the item at a discount, and don't have the in-game AD, they have to buy and transfer Zen into the game, which releases pressure on the current market.

    Cryptic could then use these sets of levels to help better regulate the ZAX. If it's over-heated (like it is now), do more popular items at different discounts. If it just needs a little tweaking, use less popular items or smaller discounts.
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  • mh0rammh0ram Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I resent being called a Whale.
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    No sane player would keep with the game at those prices and no new player would play more than a week after hitting level cap. That would destroy the game and the company.

    Well, you're wrong, of course. Inflation hits every single MMO over time, and you expect the people who buy Zen from Cryptic to shoulder that load (as regards the AD:Zen trading market) by themselves. That's both incredibly selfish and incredibly short-sighted.

    You want it all one way, you want the free players to have Zen valured insanely high so that they (you?) can buy it with AD at inflation-free prices even though the purchasing power of AD (like any in-game currency in any MMO, it's a natural process) continues to erode due to inflation.

    Question: Why is 1 million AD worth $20? Answers: 1) It's not, that's a ridiculous price considering what one million AD will (or won't) buy these days. 2) It's not, and a whole host of third party services camp this game selling it for a quarter of that. They don't camp here because they are not selling, they camp here because they are. 3) It's not - 13 million Zen buy order backlog.

    Let's assume that inflation will persist, since unless this one game bucks the MUDflation that is well documented throughout the genre it will (and I invite you to cite examples of other Triple A MMOs that have not seen this happen). Forcing the AD:Zen ratio to remain static over time is saying that the people who pay for this game, the ones buying Zen with $, will see a continually smaller and smaller ROI. That's not supposition, that's math. MUDFlation is a fact, it's not going away, and what you're saying is that free-to-players should have their AD-gathering time valued at a continually higher rate than the real dollars people are spending to buy Zen from PWE.

    It looks like this:

    Today: Sword of Sweetness costs 1 million AD on the AH - Sword of Sweetness costs $20

    Tomorrow due to perfectly natural MUDFlation (some NN days/weeks/months): Sword of Sweetness costs 2 million AD on the AH - Sword of Sweetness costs $40.

    The Sword did not become more valuable over time, the in-game currency's value relative to the Sword dropped which is perfectly natural. BUT, the Sword that buys 1000 Zen today will buy 2000 tomorrow. How the hell is that right? Take some time, think about it.
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    This is what happens when you hide crucial game advancement items behind a paywall in F2P: people will try to find a way around it. They were (wildly) successful in this MMO for a while. Now there is a mess.

    I'll repeat what I said in my first post on this thread: Maybe shouldn't have had coalescent wards and respec tokens as zen-only items. Maybe shouldn't have tried to drive the ZAX activity that way. It was, perhaps, a mistake. An honest one with the best intentions to have some activity take place for the zen sellers to have AD to buy, but it turned out poorly now. Too many people have too much AD and not enough zen to go around.

    Then again, the devs could have done the whole coal wards thing differently to begin with, and not made them all-but-MANDATORY items for end-game stuff. That was, perhaps, a little mistake as well. Let's call that "spilled milk" and not cry over it, though. :)
  • shurato2099shurato2099 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    anharmon wrote: »
    IP Address banning does not (and as far as I am concerned, never has) worked. This method becomes an annoyance because it forces people to go through multiple accounts, but doesn't stop people from making multiple accounts.

    Not only multiple accounts but accounts from various IPs, either 'real' or spoofed from behind a VPN. On a f2p game there's simply no way to keep the spammers out. The game has to become unprofitable to them and that can be a fine line to walk when the game's revenue comes from basically the same thing they're doing. It needs to be exceedingly difficult to bot their node gathering (semi-random spawn points, for instance), dungeon kicking needs to be brought under control, and a cap needs to be in place to keep them from moving around the huge amounts of AD they need to in order to do business.
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    Not only multiple accounts but accounts from various IPs, either 'real' or spoofed from behind a VPN. On a f2p game there's simply no way to keep the spammers out. The game has to become unprofitable to them and that can be a fine line to walk when the game's revenue comes from basically the same thing they're doing. It needs to be exceedingly difficult to bot their node gathering (semi-random spawn points, for instance), dungeon kicking needs to be brought under control, and a cap needs to be in place to keep them from moving around the huge amounts of AD they need to in order to do business.

    This is all very reasonable. I was actually surprised when playing beta and the nodes didn't move around to random spots after being farmed. That kind of thing leads to trouble, as I have discovered playing other F2P's. It makes botting extremely easy when the node is in the same spot over and over. :P
  • shurato2099shurato2099 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    This is all very reasonable. I was actually surprised when playing beta and the nodes didn't move around to random spots after being farmed. That kind of thing leads to trouble, as I have discovered playing other F2P's. It makes botting extremely easy when the node is in the same spot over and over. :P

    Final Fantasy XI had a novel cure for their fishing bot problem back in the day. Bots were generally low level and escorted to good fishing spots that were generally free from monsters. Their answer was to add slow spawning monsters to those zones so that the bots would get killed off, since they were just standing around fishing, while players could handle the monters and then fish for a while.
  • tardagaintardagain Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    LOL I like the idea of the bots getting eaten.

    When I was playing RaiderZ it was always fun with my guildies to drag some boss monster over to where bots were auto-farming resource mobs, and make sure that the bot took a shot at the boss "on accident" in order to aggro it. It took a little player intervention, but it was always satisfying to get some annoying bot(s) killed when the opportunity arose. :)
  • shurato2099shurato2099 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tardagain wrote: »
    LOL I like the idea of the bots getting eaten.

    When I was playing RaiderZ it was always fun with my guildies to drag some boss monster over to where bots were auto-farming resource mobs, and make sure that the bot took a shot at the boss "on accident" in order to aggro it. It took a little player intervention, but it was always satisfying to get some annoying bot(s) killed when the opportunity arose. :)

    In dealing with the botting aspect of the situation I would totally urge the devs to be creative and just a little sadistic. :)
  • catchtheteemocatchtheteemo Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Final Fantasy XI had a novel cure for their fishing bot problem back in the day. Bots were generally low level and escorted to good fishing spots that were generally free from monsters. Their answer was to add slow spawning monsters to those zones so that the bots would get killed off, since they were just standing around fishing, while players could handle the monters and then fish for a while.

    NWN had the same system in Winter festival for the fishing part. IIRC, initially there were no monsters, then they introduced skeleton warriors popping out from holes in the lake to kill off bots.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    Well, you're wrong, of course. Inflation hits every single MMO over time, and you expect the people who buy Zen from Cryptic to shoulder that load (as regards the AD:Zen trading market) by themselves. That's both incredibly selfish and incredibly short-sighted.

    Likewise it's selfish to expect new players to have to farm 1 million AD per coal ward. They have a hard enough time to get one for 500k. These players have less AD income if they're farming dungeons than old players did. Though I do think you get poor ad/zen, however I also think you get poor zen/$. I feel the zen/ad is pretty reasonable though. I guess I wouldn't mind it being raised a little, however if anything, coal wards should go down in price.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Likewise it's selfish to expect new players to have to farm 1 million AD per coal ward. They have a hard enough time to get one for 500k. These players have less AD income if they're farming dungeons than old players did. Though I do think you get poor ad/zen, however I also think you get poor zen/$. I feel the zen/ad is pretty reasonable though. I guess I wouldn't mind it being raised a little, however if anything, coal wards should go down in price.

    This is it exactly. No mmo retains enough people to not need new players. Since new players would take one look at things in his world and say "blank this, I'm out" then tell all their friends not to touch PWE games, this would be very bad for the whole company. Then since the new players aren't coming in, the population dwindles and even more vets leave leading to a downward spiral that kills the game and the company. His idea is company suicide.
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    This is it exactly. No mmo retains enough people to not need new players. Since new players would take one look at things in his world and say "blank this, I'm out" then tell all their friends not to touch PWE games, this would be very bad for the whole company. Then since the new players aren't coming in, the population dwindles and even more vets leave leading to a downward spiral that kills the game and the company. His idea is company suicide.

    I think "his idea" is tested and proved elsewhere (see ISK/PLEX) and he knows what he's talking about. Consistently giving the people who pay Cryptic real dollars less and less is only a good thing in the heads of people who ride their coattails.
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Likewise it's selfish to expect new players to have to farm 1 million AD per coal ward. They have a hard enough time to get one for 500k. These players have less AD income if they're farming dungeons than old players did. Though I do think you get poor ad/zen, however I also think you get poor zen/$. I feel the zen/ad is pretty reasonable though. I guess I wouldn't mind it being raised a little, however if anything, coal wards should go down in price.


    I agree.

    I don't expect new players to need coal wards at all. I expect players well into progression and upgrading full T2 sets with increasingly better 'chants to need them. Yes, there is a connection between gearflation and ADflation...but that's another issue in and of itself. Of course it has a bearing...but inflation is not going away, and inflation has faced new players in every mature MMO on the market.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    I think "his idea" is tested and proved elsewhere (see ISK/PLEX) and he knows what he's talking about. Consistently giving the people who pay Cryptic real dollars less and less is only a good thing in the heads of people who ride their coattails.

    Plex is just another method of paying a sub. Way different, it's not a paywall to do basic things like respec, or get basic gear like lesser enchants. Also EVE is probably the most new player unfriendly game that I've ever seen. I can't fathom why new players get into it, other than trolling and griefing are acceptable practices there.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    I agree.

    I don't expect new players to need coal wards at all. I expect players well into progression and upgrading full T2 sets with increasingly better 'chants to need them. Yes, there is a connection between gearflation and ADflation...but that's another issue in and of itself. Of course it has a bearing...but inflation is not going away, and inflation has faced new players in every mature MMO on the market.

    Well lesser enchants on the most part have inflated 500%. That's already way too much and you're asking for that to double. The only ones doing well are the ones that have managed to capitalise the market. Everyone else has been screwed. Likewise $10 for a single ward is ridiculous let alone the current ad cost. Why should people continue to play when their goals are pretty much unobtainable? Lesser enchants are on the cheap side with not too much effectiveness and it's much harder to get that when you could originally quite easily get one for free. Being an older player I've managed to gain AD that I otherwise wouldn't and also have multi leadership toons, something that shouldn't be expected and have farmed at a much better rate than new players while things have gone up for them. I recognise the flaws and would probably not have stayed if I were to have started in the last few months. I would at most have done all of the dungeons and figured that was all of the goals that are worth achieving and the last 3 modules are hardly something to stay for. I'm lucky, I've worked a lot to the point that AD income is barely a concern. Others don't have the privilege.

    Progress should be realistic and neither too hard for the mass amount of people nor too easy to keep is interested in progressing. Currently it's just way too hard for the mass majority that reaching that top end isn't really a goal to strive for.
  • jrfbrunetjrfbrunet Member Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    harkur wrote: »
    Yes, there is a connection between gearflation and ADflation...but that's another issue in and of itself. Of course it has a bearing...but inflation is not going away, and inflation has faced new players in every mature MMO on the market.

    Yeah, but the more successful MMOs out there will adjust drop rates to compensate for inflation. (WoW has done just that) Is that a good solution? I don't know. Are more AD sinks going to be a good solution? I don't see how that's any better of a solution.
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  • shurato2099shurato2099 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    NWN had the same system in Winter festival for the fishing part. IIRC, initially there were no monsters, then they introduced skeleton warriors popping out from holes in the lake to kill off bots.

    Yep! That was a good move on the devs' part. The best way to deal with a bot is to force them to adapt which, since they don't have an attentive player on the other end, they generally can't. Move the nodes around, have the occasional squad of monsters wander through, randomize nodes at a given location, that sort of thing. This would still leave the problem of farming missions in the Foundry which would take more active policing.
  • shurato2099shurato2099 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    jrfbrunet wrote: »
    Yeah, but the more successful MMOs out there will adjust drop rates to compensate for inflation. (WoW has done just that) Is that a good solution? I don't know. Are more AD sinks going to be a good solution? I don't see how that's any better of a solution.

    I look at AD sinks as a partial solution. They wouldn't stop the exploiters and the sellers but they would give the whales and the rank-and-file players more to do with their AD than simply horde it. To do that, however, the sinks would have to provide something useful, consumable, and non-transferable at a reasonable price point. That could help strengthen the value of AD overall.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I look at AD sinks as a partial solution. They wouldn't stop the exploiters and the sellers but they would give the whales and the rank-and-file players more to do with their AD than simply horde it. To do that, however, the sinks would have to provide something useful, consumable, and non-transferable at a reasonable price point. That could help strengthen the value of AD overall.

    Like elixirs for PvP players...
  • harkurharkur Member Posts: 305 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Well lesser enchants on the most part have inflated 500%. That's already way too much and you're asking for that to double. The only ones doing well are the ones that have managed to capitalise the market. Everyone else has been screwed. Likewise $10 for a single ward is ridiculous let alone the current ad cost. Why should people continue to play when their goals are pretty much unobtainable? Lesser enchants are on the cheap side with not too much effectiveness and it's much harder to get that when you could originally quite easily get one for free. Being an older player I've managed to gain AD that I otherwise wouldn't and also have multi leadership toons, something that shouldn't be expected and have farmed at a much better rate than new players while things have gone up for them. I recognise the flaws and would probably not have stayed if I were to have started in the last few months. I would at most have done all of the dungeons and figured that was all of the goals that are worth achieving and the last 3 modules are hardly something to stay for. I'm lucky, I've worked a lot to the point that AD income is barely a concern. Others don't have the privilege.

    Progress should be realistic and neither too hard for the mass amount of people nor too easy to keep is interested in progressing. Currently it's just way too hard for the mass majority that reaching that top end isn't really a goal to strive for.


    Wait, why is it ok and not to be expected for others to be doing something you are.

    Come on, everyone keeps looking at this from the perspective of the free players and no one wants to address the constantly declining value of zen...aka real dollars being paid to Cryptic to keep the game running for those free players...against the AH items people trading Zen to get AD for.

    Explain to me how your position benefits the person spending real live dollars to buy Zen and then exhange it for AD. If you can't, then I'm not the one heralding gloom and doom for the game. They pay for this game. Period. The end. If Cryptic isn't catering to them, they are doing it wrong. And right now they're not.


    Also, you have loads of AD...yet you want to see AD prices kept low and say...say...that is for the poor new players who should not be expected to make AD the way you did. You clearly show there is a path to signifcant AD and yet you want to keep the AD/Zen ratio low instead of leeting it float and allowing Zen buyers (the real$ Zen buyers) to keep pace with inflation.

    So, as far as you and others are concerned; better their dollars decline against AH goods continually while your AD continues to buy the same amount of Zen. Sounds fair?
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