as a GWF i think GWFs are fine where they are at least for PvP. untill I get into ether the new dungeon or skirmish they seem pretty good in PvE also.
are we the top DPSers ? no but in my opinion throwing up the biggest number at the end of a dungeon is insignificant to having a smooth dungeon run. I run a dps/control hybrid (IV destro) I gather up enemies with my "Come and get it" and push them over with "Front line surge" (if they are on their back they wont be on the HRs or CWs faces) combine that with "Wicked strike" and "Indominable battle strike" and burn em up. Gone are the days of "hey I am a GWF with 16k or higer GS everyone in the dungeon is here to support me and be loot vacuums as I cut a swath of destruction through this dungeon and all should grovel before my awesome overall damage numbers ye pesants! there are 3 play styles you can choose from or even pick and mix.
super squishy? gear not that good? go sentinal you wont be top dps but you will be alive at the end of the fight.
wanna do a good bit of dps and ether have the def to survive or are good at dodging red? SM destroyer.
like a bit of both worlds? how about IV destroyer?
PvP may need a bit of a tweaking due to some CW powers being a bit on the ridiculous side and GFs almost perma shield. maybe tad tweak on the HR's thorn ward is in order too(lasts too long and hits too hard). I could also talk about TRs and the perma-stealth but it doesnt appear to be going anywhere. you can beat them for the most part being that they tend to be somewhat predicable and super squishy out of stealth you just need to learn their hiding spots. if you find you cant beat a perma at a node then leave it and go to another node. people tend to forget its not who has the most kills wins its who holds the points uncontested longest. you just need to find out where you are most productive to your team.
another thing that people arent looking at is the ranks were just reset so you have hardcore PvP guilds and guys with 17-19k GS against new PVPers and not so geared players so until the dust settles its a bit of a cluster bleep.
before this mod we were absolute steamrollers and most matches I would get anywhere from 18-25 kills with a hand full of deaths. I even went 40/2 a couple times and i wouldnt say I an elite by no means, but I dont suck ethe. this mod I actually have to pay attention and plan, not just wait for you to make a mistake then repeatedly bash you to the ground until you fall down and I kick you over.
for the TL/DR people GWFs are fine with the changes now and things just need a little dialing in nobody needs nerfed no class is unkillable. some of the CW powers arent quite working as intended from what I have seen but nothing to "OMGWHYPWE I gonna quit ur gamez" over.
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bensupremacyMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 23Arc User
In my opinion yes just for the lack of mobility that the IV have, and for some reason the SM I have run into in PvP I tend to melt through like warm butter
as for PvE I know last module SM were out dpsing IV. I think they are pretty close this mod though as long as they are both destroyer. but I would go with whatever you like to play. I just cant give up threatening rush even with the 3 charges and decreased damage I like the mobility and the extra 15% damage from the mark
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bensupremacyMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 23Arc User
In my opinion yes just for the lack of mobility that the IV have, and for some reason the SM I have run into in PvP I tend to melt through like warm butter
as for PvE I know last module SM were out dpsing IV. I think they are pretty close this mod though as long as they are both destroyer. but I would go with whatever you like to play. I just cant give up threatening rush even with the 3 charges and decreased damage I like the mobility and the extra 15% damage from the mark
could you use this link http://nwcalc.com/ to mark powers and talents to use in a build pve dps?
as a GWF i think GWFs are fine where they are at least for PvP. untill I get into ether the new dungeon or skirmish they seem pretty good in PvE also.
are we the top DPSers ? no but in my opinion throwing up the biggest number at the end of a dungeon is insignificant to having a smooth dungeon run.
Now we have to "choose between being a "tank" or dps. gf, like a tank, has a new standard - I will not even comment about the perma freeze cw - then we should be on the same level as the warlock because... if you have a full perma freeze guy or a super buff tank, there is no reason for you to take an average dps just because he is "off tank". is puerile (or malicious) imagine that.
For this, the combat designer should have done, no buffs, but adjusted broken aspects of the class. months were "dedicated to gwf" and the only change he made was to recycle mark/ a lot of nerfs.
if the class was working properly now. my rotation would be bf / ds and ibs. ie, I would be increasing the party damage by 13% (nothing for gf, but not bad) and beating REALLY hard using a bf (less than a anvil of doom, but aoe).
unfortunately, as the bf does not work with critical, and, for my last test, dont shared bonus.
So let's see. People cried about GWF being tanky and having DPS at the same time in pvp. In mod 3, they make sentinel DPS useless. Then they go ahead and nerf the DPS of the PVE GWF. Point taken, CW and GWF were too strong in PVE. But then go ahead and boost CW anyway? It's been more than a year, cryptic, what's the reasoning behind these changes? Mod 1 we were useless, Mod 2 we were up to par. Mod 3 we were slightly worse. Mod 4 even worse. So what is the reasoning behind all this? Why is it fair for me to constantly trying to stay alive while the CW behind me just stands there throwing his pew pew and does 5mil more dps than me? Is that fair? I don't get it. I was all for nerfing both classes for balance, but for YET one more time it's like they somehow managed to forget about how OP the CW really is. This is getting annoying really, the more runs I do the more this feels like someone is laughing at me. Congratulations, devs, now instead of 2 OP classes there's just one. Balance....
I really cannot digest how we are talking about the same kind of issues we have been talking for more than a YEAR and apart from GFs now being needed again there is absolutely no other change in the balance of the classes in PVE.
I'm going to start with, I play a TR, CW, GWF, in that order. Coming from the TR perspective, welcome to the land of the nerfed. Expect to work hard to adapt, and expect it to take time. When you do finally find something that works in pvp, it might be pretty distasteful, something like perma-sprint, or a intimidation build. People will call you a coward, and cheesy, and skillless. Did you ever think TRs liked where they were at? First of all, I am not saying GWF might still be on the same level as TR in PVP. PVE however, your just fine.
You might have to step up your game, there are new kids on the block. With regards to CW, I initially was avoiding my own like the plague. CW has got the cooties in a big way, they are public enemy number 1, kind of like GWF used to be......... To be fair, CW DID get nerfed hard in POTENTIAL pve damage, and not in a small way. Personally, I am loving this change, control has been increased, and that is exactly what I always wanted out of my CW.
I am doing less than HALF of the damage I was doing M3, HV set is now my only debuff which means substantially less party damage as well. Here is the difference, I can now maintain a crit rotation while picking my nose. If you were anywhere close to competitive with TOP-LEVEL pve cws in the paingiver chart, you will probably now be out-performing them. If you were on par with average CWs, then probably nothing has changed. My old rotation was steal time, COI, chill strike, and shard. This rotation took a lot of skill to perfect and use to it's maximum potential. By the time I got to that level was actually very close to the end of M3. With it, I could run into a room of T2 mobs, pop a daily, do 100k+ aoe damage and kill them all, but this was not 100% of the time, there was variance, mostly in how eye of the storm worked.
I would like to say, I am not a top geared CW, 15k, 5.5k power, normal vorp enchant. And mod4 I am not specced for MAX damage, not that I was for M3 either. My new rotation is is steal time, entangling force, icy terrain, and finally sudden storm. This may not be, and is probably not the ideal rotation for damage, but I am loving the control. Damage is a bit harder to quantify, but at the end of the rotation, including daily, I'm looking at something like 40-50k damage aoe. EOTS however, is completely cake, and takes 0 skill now. All you have to do is build around the 20 second cooldown, and 4 second duration. With that, you can pop off a full crit encounter rotation + daily to boot.
EOTS is what is ruining PVP as well, mostly anyway. CW got a lot of boosts in pvp, and regardless of EOTS they would still be a tough opponent. I did a test with my CW over around 5 dominion matches. I tried matches with EOTS and spell storm slotted, matches with with just spell storm, and a match with just EOTS. First of all, I am Oppressor, full on, all 31 paragon feats. No juicy assailing force or thaum feats for me. Did it matter? Hell naw.
EOTS + spell storm: ray of frost was monster could take out anyone in seconds with a crit encounter rotation + ROF. GF, GWF, combat HR..... didn't matter, dead in seconds.
EOTS, no spell storm : Ray of frost was noticeably weaker, crit encounters and daily were still burying people.
Spell storm, no EOTS: Ok now i'm getting owned. My HP is 23k, I have no tenacity, I am a PVE spec CW, I am butter on a bald monkey. All that control didn't keep GWFs from closing on my, and they were ripping me to shreds. I could CC combat HRs pretty well if I started with icy rays, but I had trouble bringing them to below half health without an ice knife, meanwhile, they were ripping huge chunks out of me, did better after I timed a dodge after their rush to avoid the boar knockdown. GF was still pretty easy, could CC the hell out of them with Opressor chill. Got to face a SW once or twice, have to admit they might be pretty scary once people start gearing them, that soul puppet is incredibly annoying, shift for them kinda sucks tho haha.
Anyway, be aware. EOTS auto procs on a CWs first attack. That's right AUTO-PROCS! Not chance, boom, it's just there, and for the next 4 seconds the CW is a burst manic that can slay gods. Surprised if your charging into the fray, two cws target you and you go down instantly? Don't be, imagine if your FLS, take down, and IBS all crit back to back.......... When coming upon a CW for the first time, bait them into 1 attack, take cover, count to four, go for the kill. Count to 10, create some space, start from the beginning. Really, EOTS just needs to be removed from pvp, but hey, that's not my call. For now, we can adapt the best we can, I have on my TR using the above tactic and rest assured, there is at least one class that can go toe to toe with M4 CW and stomp them like brain dead kittens, and I am loving every minute of it.
Now we have to "choose between being a "tank" or dps. gf, like a tank, has a new standard - I will not even comment about the perma freeze cw - then we should be on the same level as the warlock because... if you have a full perma freeze guy or a super buff tank, there is no reason for you to take an average dps just because he is "off tank". is puerile (or malicious) imagine
Now a DPS GF is tankier than mod 3 GWF with huge DPS and huge utility for team (threat and broken damage buffes for team, Battle Fury for GWF just sucks so hard compared to this).
as a GWF i think GWFs are fine where they are at least for PvP. untill I get into ether the new dungeon or skirmish they seem pretty good in PvE also.
are we the top DPSers ? no but in my opinion throwing up the biggest number at the end of a dungeon is insignificant to having a smooth dungeon run. I run a dps/control hybrid (IV destro) I gather up enemies with my "Come and get it" and push them over with "Front line surge" (if they are on their back they wont be on the HRs or CWs faces)
You should really play a GWF before you say such silly things. How are you "pushing them over"? No more prone silly. If you weren't such a silly twerp and actually played a GWF you'd know that. Fail troll is fail.
Now a DPS GF is tankier than mod 3 GWF with huge DPS and huge utility for team (threat and broken damage buffes for team, Battle Fury for GWF just sucks so hard compared to this).
This. I'm telling you guys GF is the new GWF. And GWF is the new toon to delete to make a spot for your GF or Melee SW. I'm one of the suckers that bought a $75 dragon pack so at least I got an extra char slot so I can keep my GWF. (He's got mad Leadership yo!)
Now a DPS GF is tankier than mod 3 GWF with huge DPS and huge utility for team (threat and broken damage buffes for team, Battle Fury for GWF just sucks so hard compared to this).
I try to find a rationale for these changes. I have the impression that they leveled classes based on projection, fantasy or lying, they had over gwf. immortal, better control of the game, most damage in the game, etc, just "smash the keyboard". In short, devs can not identify a hyperbole.
so let's play with a system of "classification". the m3 gwf was a Class "8 star" described as "11 stars". they put the cw / gf 10 stars (real) and decreased 1 star gwf, being now a real 7 stars class and not 10.
of course, the "gameplay" became easy (proportional to the hyperbole). people say "my god, cw is hard like quantum physics", the honest gwf player say "yes, gwf is easy to play", dev imagine a crazy thing and, bang!, you have a perma freeze class (or instant kill in pvp).
i can not say nothing about gf, just that: my ibs, in any circumstances, not hit by 100k playing solo(9k base power). if the bf was working properly, I'd be 84k.
as a GWF i think GWFs are fine where they are at least for PvP. untill I get into ether the new dungeon or skirmish they seem pretty good in PvE also.
are we the top DPSers ? no but in my opinion throwing up the biggest number at the end of a dungeon is insignificant to having a smooth dungeon run. I run a dps/control hybrid (IV destro) I gather up enemies with my "Come and get it" and push them over with "Front line surge" (if they are on their back they wont be on the HRs or CWs faces) combine that with "Wicked strike" and "Indominable battle strike" and burn em up. Gone are the days of "hey I am a GWF with 16k or higer GS everyone in the dungeon is here to support me and be loot vacuums as I cut a swath of destruction through this dungeon and all should grovel before my awesome overall damage numbers ye pesants! there are 3 play styles you can choose from or even pick and mix.
super squishy? gear not that good? go sentinal you wont be top dps but you will be alive at the end of the fight.
wanna do a good bit of dps and ether have the def to survive or are good at dodging red? SM destroyer.
like a bit of both worlds? how about IV destroyer?
PvP may need a bit of a tweaking due to some CW powers being a bit on the ridiculous side and GFs almost perma shield. maybe tad tweak on the HR's thorn ward is in order too(lasts too long and hits too hard). I could also talk about TRs and the perma-stealth but it doesnt appear to be going anywhere. you can beat them for the most part being that they tend to be somewhat predicable and super squishy out of stealth you just need to learn their hiding spots. if you find you cant beat a perma at a node then leave it and go to another node. people tend to forget its not who has the most kills wins its who holds the points uncontested longest. you just need to find out where you are most productive to your team.
another thing that people arent looking at is the ranks were just reset so you have hardcore PvP guilds and guys with 17-19k GS against new PVPers and not so geared players so until the dust settles its a bit of a cluster bleep.
before this mod we were absolute steamrollers and most matches I would get anywhere from 18-25 kills with a hand full of deaths. I even went 40/2 a couple times and i wouldnt say I an elite by no means, but I dont suck ethe. this mod I actually have to pay attention and plan, not just wait for you to make a mistake then repeatedly bash you to the ground until you fall down and I kick you over.
for the TL/DR people GWFs are fine with the changes now and things just need a little dialing in nobody needs nerfed no class is unkillable. some of the CW powers arent quite working as intended from what I have seen but nothing to "OMGWHYPWE I gonna quit ur gamez" over.
IMO your a little off base here. I've always been top DPSer in the party, I play Destroyer spec and am purely offensive. Now HR's and CW's are More tankier then the dude in full scale plate armor. This makes no sense. Sent GWF's are fine, but Dest. GWFs are totally unviable. And now HR's Do as much as more DPS then me. In mod2/3 I had a very viable Dest. build. Mod 4' after several respecs I still die faster than clothies, and do less damage even though I'm purely specced for Damage. The Dest. tree either needs a boost in Surviability or a major boost in burst damage or a balance of both. In most matches with two or three of my team and two or more of the enemies team I am falling so fast after three or four attacks against me.
By the way IV still is more viable for DPS PvE as your able to put more Damage out due to short animations. Sword Master is still garbage, Flourish did not get the boost it should have.
You should really play a GWF before you say such silly things. How are you "pushing them over"? No more prone silly. If you weren't such a silly twerp and actually played a GWF you'd know that. Fail troll is fail.
if you actually read it I am talking about pve since you do not PvP in dungeons silly rabbit and yes FLS still knocks down most trash mobs
could you use this link http://nwcalc.com/ to mark powers and talents to use in a build pve dps?
Sorry for the trouble
no trouble at all and i also will put my char sheet to give you an idea where I keep my stats. only ones you cant see are my def lifesteal, and deflect which are
def= 2321
deflect= 1385
Lifesteal= 1460
until you hit close to those stats dont try to push power you will find yourself a bit squishy
I hope that helps but you might not want to listen to me since apparently I am just a "fail trolling twerp" that "doesnt even play a GWF" lol *winks @ dogorox*
IMO your a little off base here. I've always been top DPSer in the party, I play Destroyer spec and am purely offensive. Now HR's and CW's are More tankier then the dude in full scale plate armor. This makes no sense. Sent GWF's are fine, but Dest. GWFs are totally unviable. And now HR's Do as much as more DPS then me. In mod2/3 I had a very viable Dest. build. Mod 4' after several respecs I still die faster than clothies, and do less damage even though I'm purely specced for Damage. The Dest. tree either needs a boost in Surviability or a major boost in burst damage or a balance of both. In most matches with two or three of my team and two or more of the enemies team I am falling so fast after three or four attacks against me.
I respect your opinon and you may be right I admit I am not the end all be all uber GWF I just know what works for me
in pvp I run with FLS resto strike and IBS on my bar in full corrupted BI gear W/ weapon and offhand and in most matches I can get some decent kills and be a good asset to the team but only if I get in their face and play smart. yes i do die a lot faster and more in PvP this mod but I will freely admit that last mod going 20+ kills and 2-6 deaths was OP
as for PvE I know I will never out DPS a CW like I did in mod 2 using Kolatmasters leeroy jenkins IV sent build but with the cap to singularity dropped I do my part to help control adds and burn them with come and get it and FLS
you may be right on the SM being not as viable for PvE since I only specced it for about 3 hours on test and didnt like it but I didnt get a chance to parse it with ACT
if you are wanting to be top dps with comparable gear to the CWs (or SW from what I hear are beast) I am sorry but with the current ajustments this mod you just arent gonna do it and you may want to roll a CW if that is what gives you enjoyment in the game. to me I like playing GWF and I try to find a way to make it work and would never say destro builds arent viable, thats just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I would recconmend waiting for the dust to settle before making snap judgements on specs this early into the mod
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
if you are wanting to be top dps with comparable gear to the CWs (or SW from what I hear are beast) I am sorry but with the current ajustments this mod you just arent gonna do it and you may want to roll a CW if that is what gives you enjoyment in the game.
^ And this why we can't have nice things. Same kind of failure every mod. Why should the wizards be so special? I ran VT with 13.2 GS CW and I barely did 2mil more damage than him. I'm fully DPS specced, over 18k GS with over 10k power. It just doesn't make any sense.
Now a DPS GF is tankier than mod 3 GWF with huge DPS and huge utility for team (threat and broken damage buffes for team, Battle Fury for GWF just sucks so hard compared to this).
May I ask, what makes you think that a GWF should match a GFs tankiness? Since when did scale armour = full plate armour, chainmail and a shield? One is designed to eat a lot of damage, the others is designed to take some damage.
As for damage, I have a Destroyer GWF (14.5k, AoW) and a Conqueror GF (16.7k TH) and the GWF still out damages the GF. GFs hit harder, but not GWF hard. GFs will be unable to run maximum DPS builds in dungeons anyway, because they will there to buff and hold aggro, not deal the damage. You cry about Into the Fray vs Battle Fury? Guess what, your GWF gets massive benefits from the GF's buff, which means YOU hit harder.
You should really play a GWF before you say such silly things. How are you "pushing them over"? No more prone silly. If you weren't such a silly twerp and actually played a GWF you'd know that. Fail troll is fail.
Wow. Did you pay attention to what the guy said or did you just get mad, bro? Last time I checked - which was yesterday - both the GF and GWF can still prone NPCs with Frontline Surge.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
My GS went up to almost 20k but yet my health dropped significantly to 25k, and even with 4300 Defense I have 0 survivability.
Were you in a PVP match with 25k HP? Stepping on a node with 25k HP is basically asking to be killed.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Were you in a PVP match with 25k HP? Stepping on a node with 25k HP is basically asking to be killed.
This mentality is another reason we can't have nice things. Mod 3 I had 28k and with Purified Black ice armor I had a very viable DPS build, mainly because at a 19k gs it provided enough survivability and the control was there to land big hits, especially when putting players prone with IBS+crit. Why should Desto's be forced to sacrifice damage for HP? this mystical Balance Dev's keep saying they are seeking should allow both specs to be viable. I play GWF to be a big melee DPS being mobile to help out my team from node to node by landing big hits+having the survivability to last more than 3 hits.. I've tested out every class but SW and I dislike them all. GWF is all I play and I have no desire to go sent. and sit on a node and get beat on while taking forever to kill an opponent.
No one is saying GWF should be tankier than GF, however they should have more survivability than a CW or HR and right now Destro's do not. They fall within seconds of entering a node.
I play both PvE and PvP Few CW's out DPS me, I still do a tremendous amount of DPS in Mod 4. Those CW's that do out damage me do so I AoE, but when it comes to Single Target DPS they fall behind fast, as it should be. GWF is supposed to be the king of single target DPS. I should be able to have an adequate ability in PvP not be totally useless.
Really all that needed to be changed from Mod 3 for Mod 4 is fix roar and fix healing depression on Unstoppable. Destro's have suffered immeasurably now, and people shouldn't be tossing these GWF is where it needs to be until they play destroyer. Some one summed Destroyer up earlier in the thread perfectly: GWF Destro is now a glass pistol instead of a glass Canon.
Devs please give Destro only a survivability increase by Addng more tankieness or a big boost in burst damage to compete with CW pvp damage. I'd actually prefer mild amounts of both.
I still cant figure out where people are going wrong when they say GWFs running destro are PvE squishy pre mod 4 I would use 5-6 potions, per tier 2 dungeon tops. now I am up to 10-12 oh no what ever shall I do... I think I may quit playing because my class is soooooo broken!
if you spec all dps and no survivability its called glass cannon and yes you will be squishy or you can drop the minor dps increase of rampaging madness for endless consumption get you about 10% lifesteal and lifesteal your way to victory its as simple as that.
as for pvp yes the first 2 or 3 days after the rankings were reset I was being melted left and right by CWs and HRs and throwing everything I had at GFs with all the effectiveness of flailing at them with a wet tubesock but now that the ubers with all orange artifacts and full rank 10s and perfect enchants are back up in their own bracket where they belong it is much better. plus they fixed the storm spell proccing off chill stacks.
I actually have to play smart now and not just wait till someone makes a mistake and takedown, FLS, IBS and then kick them over all match (I refuse to use roar because it wasnt working as intended but that was just my own personal opinion and I didnt need a bugged encounter to do work in doms)
my full corrupted set with weapons gives me a 17.6k GS and 28k hp (22% tenacity) and my last two hotenow doms were
15/0/11 and17/3/21 and all I did was switch out takedown for restoring strike (hits hard + gives life) so honestly I cant see how people can say IV destro is not viable anymore unless they are doing somthing horribly wrong
I am sorry if it butthurts people that instead of coming in here like chicken little and screaming the sky is falling I took the Marine Corps motto of Improvise, Adapt and Overcome. I dont have to be 40/2/25 or 28/4/12 like I was last 2 mods my Epeen can take it
I still cant figure out where people are going wrong when they say GWFs running destro are PvE squishy pre mod 4 I would use 5-6 potions, per tier 2 dungeon tops. now I am up to 10-12 oh no what ever shall I do... I think I may quit playing because my class is soooooo broken!
if you spec all dps and no survivability its called glass cannon and yes you will be squishy or you can drop the minor dps increase of rampaging madness for endless consumption get you about 10% lifesteal and lifesteal your way to victory its as simple as that.
as for pvp yes the first 2 or 3 days after the rankings were reset I was being melted left and right by CWs and HRs and throwing everything I had at GFs with all the effectiveness of flailing at them with a wet tubesock but now that the ubers with all orange artifacts and full rank 10s and perfect enchants are back up in their own bracket where they belong it is much better. plus they fixed the storm spell proccing off chill stacks.
I actually have to play smart now and not just wait till someone makes a mistake and takedown, FLS, IBS and then kick them over all match (I refuse to use roar because it wasnt working as intended but that was just my own personal opinion and I didnt need a bugged encounter to do work in doms)
my full corrupted set with weapons gives me a 17.6k GS and 28k hp (22% tenacity) and my last two hotenow doms were
15/0/11 and17/3/21 and all I did was switch out takedown for restoring strike (hits hard + gives life) so honestly I cant see how people can say IV destro is not viable anymore unless they are doing somthing horribly wrong
I am sorry if it butthurts people that instead of coming in here like chicken little and screaming the sky is falling I took the Marine Corps motto of Improvise, Adapt and Overcome. I dont have to be 40/2/25 or 28/4/12 like I was last 2 mods my Epeen can take it
You're completely lost.... Your GS is 17k and your talking about being in a bracket against players with 9-14k. Of course your going to get kill streaks that high. Yesterday I was on page 391 got matched into a game in a similar bracket and went 48-1-18. My GS is 19.4k in PvP and 20.2k in PvE. I should be competitive against the guys your talking about flailing tube socks at. I should be hitting them hard enough to kill one of them in a rotation, not two or three of them. I should have the survivability to stay in a fight 3 vs 3 on a node. Right now it's not there.
your comparing apples to oranges man seriously. Your GS is over 17k, your not going to have any problems in PVE causes there is no PVE content for GS as high as we have. Come on man. I have no issues in PvE I still do blazingly high DPS too, but when content comes out, and hopefully lostmauth is, We will get smoked.
Sure when I que alone I get put in a match where I own cause my record stinks now, but when I que with a premade with my guild and get put against lightning panda's or Kouzkou I'm not viable I end up like 3-18-4, where as in Mod 3 with my "glass canon" build I could stay competitive in guild pre mades against Exodus/Phalanx. I have all legendary artifacts and rank 10's, and your GS isn't far behind mine so lets compare apples to apples.
ETA I used Corrupt Mod 3 with a cleric and it was great, now use it against 17-18k teams and your melt. Purified pre Mod four gave me a prefect balance of survivability and DPS, now there's no survivability in Similarly Gear scored teams. Purified would still work better for you now though
You're completely lost.... Your GS is 17k and your talking about being in a bracket against players with 9-14k. Of course your going to get kill streaks that high. Yesterday I was on page 391 got matched into a game in a similar bracket and went 48-1-18. My GS is 19.4k in PvP and 20.2k in PvE. I should be competitive against the guys your talking about flailing tube socks at. I should be hitting them hard enough to kill one of them in a rotation, not two or three of them. I should have the survivability to stay in a fight 3 vs 3 on a node. Right now it's not there.
your comparing apples to oranges man seriously. Your GS is over 17k, your not going to have any problems in PVE causes there is no PVE content for GS as high as we have. Come on man. I have no issues in PvE I still do blazingly high DPS too, but when content comes out, and hopefully lostmauth is, We will get smoked.
Sure when I que alone I get put in a match where I own cause my record stinks now, but when I que with a premade with my guild and get put against lightning panda's or Kouzkou I'm not viable I end up like 3-18-4, where as in Mod 3 with my "glass canon" build I could stay competitive in guild pre mades against Exodus/Phalanx. I have all legendary artifacts and rank 10's, and your GS isn't far behind mine so lets compare apples to apples.
ETA I used Corrupt Mod 3 with a cleric and it was great, now use it against 17-18k teams and your melt. Purified pre Mod four gave me a prefect balance of survivability and DPS, now there's no survivability in Similarly Gear scored teams. Purified would still work better for you now though
you think I am completely lost... fair enough... I did epic Lostmauth on test with my guild and yes it was pretty hard and we beat it 2 out of the 6 times we tried it and it would have been more but the dropping stalagtites werent putting red circles down and people were being punted into the lava during the part where you have to stand in the middle. plus we are getting new draconic gear with overload slots, artifact belts and weapons so I dont see any problem with PvE and the new content
as for PvP
1. again the rankings were reset so the premades with your gear score 18+k are in with the 9-14kers thats why the other people are having so much trouble I wasnt refering to you specifically
2. the module has been live for 4 days and there are plenty of bugs like the CW spellstorm and the blue dragon glyph a big invisible wall in dread ring, other artifacts not working properly lots of things they need to fix I am sure PvP balance is somewhere on the list and even if its not people need to chill its just a game.
I think you're completely overreacting....
I have already spent more time on this thread than I care to. I am gonna go play my game and enjoy myself, I am sorry if you cant do that.
As for damage, I have a Destroyer GWF (14.5k, AoW) and a Conqueror GF (16.7k TH) and the GWF still out damages the GF. GFs hit harder, but not GWF hard. GFs will be unable to run maximum DPS builds in dungeons anyway, because they will there to buff and hold aggro, not deal the damage. You cry about Into the Fray vs Battle Fury? Guess what, your GWF gets massive benefits from the GF's buff, which means YOU hit harder.
wait, wait, wait... You know what that means? part of gwf damage is gf damage. this is not a disadvantage in any way.
This is the chasm between the two classes now.and as I already said: bf DONT works (if it works, ok)
2 - I do not have to ignore the cw / sw. no, no, no. gwf was sabotaged in a justification to differentiate roles. but the same was not done for the cw. he does not need to make a choice. for what i need?
3 - the "combat designer" got 4 classes to "balance" in this module (new class), but forgot to see them in perspective. cw is perma freeze a gf can easily control the opponents now +huge party buff. why you need a meh dps? off nerfed tank?
as a module can be dedicated to this class, and this dedication have summarized a lot of nerfs and reuse a gf mechanical?
Module 3 was dedicated to gwf, and nothing special was done to inflate not be a lot of destroyer feets at the same time they gave a series of secret nerfs.
Don't change Destroyer for PvP. Let it like that, as a PvE DPS Tree. Sentinel is Tank PvP/PvE Tree.
If we wanted to have a GWF who deals damages and who is viable in PvP, then there is another Tree exactly for it : Instigator. This is why this Tree HAS TO BE REWORKED.
When it will be its turn, I'll expect a rework into a glasscanon/highburst with DR piercing/crit, with high mobility, few controls, high burst (with DR Reduces, true damages, passing deflection for example), but sucks in tanking.
Actually Destroyer has Sprint or even Punishing Charge but Punishing Charge doesn't give control immune (and Mighty Leap ... Mighty Leap ...)
My propositions to make Instigator viable : P.S : for the damages changes of a Encounter ect, let's say the GWF affected has 8k power.
T1 : Student of the Sword :
Your critical strikes lower your target's DR to your attacks by 1/2/3/4/5% for 5 seconds. This effect does not stack.
Before the nerf, it could stack 3 times. It was a lot because the old GWF had damages and tanking. But now he must choose between damages and tanking. This Tree should be pvp damages. So this must get a little change, but not against squishy classes (would be too much), but against Tanky classes.
Your critical strikes lower your ACTUAL target's DR to your attacks by 2/4/6/8/10 % for 5 seconds. Block and Unstoppable also count.
For a CW for example, if he has 30% DR, the reduce will be 3%.
Less than the actual, but it's better, if Instigator were reworked, the feat would be a little bit too powerfull against low DR, but still not good against high DR (GWF Sentinel, GF ...).
The point is to nerf it a bit against squishies classes and buff it against tank, to have an equal chance.
For example, a GWF Sentinel should have between 80% (around 40% without unstoppable) and 120% DR (but not really true, I don't really know how does it work).So a Sentinel GWF will see his 120% DR reduced to 108 (10% of 120 --> -12%).
Fleet Footed :
Whenever you control a target, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This feat can be really good to catch someone, but in fact, it's bad. What's the point of gaining Run Speed when your target is controlled, so she can't move ? GWF'd rather gaining this Run Speed after the controls affect himself. This feat also encourages being a glasscanon with high mobility/burst but being really squishy.
Whenever you are controlled, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This change allows GWF to approach his target a little bit easier. You can think it can be broken, but in fact, not that much, he'll still take the controls, and damages. GWF can play with more skill with this change : he can permuting Sprint or not, to take a little control like Slow, to gain the Run Speed and then Sprints.
Vicious Advantage : Combat Advantage now grants an additional 1/2/3/4/5% Crit chance and damages.
This. With the Instigator changes I propose, it's perfectly fine.
Stunning Flourish :
Flourish has an extra chance 1/2/3/4/5% to crit and stuns for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 second on last hit.
Flourish stuns longer. Aw. If we kept this feat and buffed it, it would be overpowered (enjoy the 4 seconds stun). With the Instigator changes, Flourish would have too much Critical chance.
Flourish now gains an additional of X/X/X/X/X range (a very little buff of range, no worries) and now gives a control immunity while casting, but you take 1/2/3/4/5% more damage during this time.
You can think it can be overpowered. But in fact, no. Actually Flourish has a big cast time, can be interrupted, and easily dodgeable. This feat compensates it by buffing a very little bit the range, and gives control immunity during the cast (like Crescendo/Spinning Strike), but you take more damage during this time. Flourish would still be easily dodgeable because of his cast time and obvious animation.
The little buff of range helps more and control immunity on this long animation is a must GWF had to have since start of the game. Now, a GWF who slots Flourish, is dangerous. Now, an ennemy, instead of obviously using a control to never let you using this power, must dodge/block/run.
It would not be broken. Why ? An Instigator GWF is a highburst in melee, but squishy, not tanky. And when he's near to you, he should be really dangerous.
P.S : stun duration lowered to 2 seconds from 3 seconds (it would be broken for rotations).
Or the IV feat :
Frontline Surge deals 1/2/3/4/5% more damages and (now stuns) ennemies for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 sec more.
Once again, remove stun. 4 seconds stun, too much.
Frontline Surge deals 3/6/9/12/15% more damages.
With the recent high damages nerf of Frontline Surge, 15% more damages seems legit for Instigator. It would be, around +250-300 damages (actually the damages are 1800-2100). Not a lot, but it's AoE, in range.
Nimble Runner :
Sprint and Punishing Charge now grants 2/4/6/8/10% deflect chance.
Sprint needn't. It is already good (or almost too much good, 30% DR is maybe a little bit too high). Punishing Charge should have Control Immunity, but it would be "Never CCed GWF" with the actual Sprint.
Punishing Charge now grants 3/6/9/12/15% more deflect chance and deals 4/8/12/16/20% more damages.
P.S : Punishing Charge : 3 charges, but the damages are between 800-1100, +20%, it means +160-220.
This change would recompensate the players who calculate when they'd take high damages, and/or if they want to engage/escape more quickly than Sprint, but without Control Immunity, this is why they must use it at the right time (Oh god, is GWF becoming a skilled class ?). One thing which would be good, is to change the Punishing Charge animation (GWF rising his Weapon like he wants to be Immune/Protected) into THE OLD Sprint animation (it would be so beautiful)
Little change to do : making Punishing Charge a little bit more responsive when he casts and when the animation ends.
Allied Opportunity :
Mighty Leap and Not So Fast deals an additional of 2/4/6/8/10% damages and you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.
This feat gives Combat Advantage, a good synergy with Vicious Advantage. But, the damages buffs are a little bit too low (check base damages, Mighty Leap --> around 1400-1600, Not So Fast around 1800-2200) and the Combat Advantage Duration is too short because ennemies can kite, run, dodge, control you and waste this time easily.
Mighty Leap deals an additional of 10/20/30/40/50% damages and Not So fast 10/15/20/25/30% damages you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 0.8/1.6/2.4/3.2/4 seconds.
50% more damages of around 1900 (max base damage) means +900, so 2700. For Mighty Leap, a jump, not a lot, but not bad. For Not So fast, 30% of 2200 (max damage) means 660, so 2860, not that much, not that bad, because : melee with just a little slow. But with 10 seconds CD. Perfect damages with perfect mechanics, don't you think ? The Combat Advantage is 1 second longer, not that much, 4 seconds, the ennemies have the time to dodge, or run, or control etc but they must take care.
If you think it's still too short, there are other ways to get Combat Advantage, and Not So Fast CD is 10 seconds, and Mighty Leap is 12 seconds.
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit.
Good for PvE, but in fact, not really, because the damages are reduced in the exactly same mechanic. So this is a good for a bad, the feat is finally not worth. You know what will I change
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit and the damages are not reduced anymore for each target you hit beyond the first.
A better Wicked Strike, and would be good with the Artifact Weapon for PvE or even PvP (but I don't think personally).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike and Avalanche of Steel now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%.
Can be good for some situations. But the point is Avalanche of Steel slow is not good (slow after prone, but i'm not sure).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%, and Avalanche of Steels now Slow your target while you are in the air by 10/15/20/25/30%. Slam can now crit.
Avalanche of Steel was easily dodgeable with dodges, and even without when there were 2 or more people and you wanted to hit them all. Now Avalanche of Steel slows while you are in the air, which makes the Daily dangerous because it's less easily dodgeable (but still). And Slam which crits, this is more a fix than a buff, because it always had to crit. Giving the crit Slam in this feat, why not ?
To fix : Spinning Strike OFTEN doesn't give Control Immune while using it.
Final Feat :
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 12%, but taking direct damage will disable this bonus for 3 seconds.
The thing is you always take damages, you're a GWF, you take damages to approach your ennemies. In very rare cases you will keep this buff.
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 15 %, but taking direct damage will divide this bonus by 2 for 3 seconds. In addition, 8% of your damages ignore your target DR.
Giving more damages to GWFs who come at the right time, or have a good positioning, is a thing to keep. Taking damages now doesn't disable the feat, it now doesn't make the feat totally useless (and not broken, 7.5% more damages or 15%, Destroyer in PvE has permanently +40% more damages, in PvP it depends). 8% of GWF's damages ignoring target's DR, it means, for a 5k Encounter, he deals 400 TRUE damages (not that much). It means if he killed someone alone, with 30k HP (including regeneration/lifesteal/artifact), he dealt 2400 TRUE damages (not a lot, but this is good).
It is now a real Final Feat for Instigator.
The reasons of these changes are actual Instigator is really bad but has a good potential. Those buffs are not "damnly broken buffs". It wouldn't make the actual IBS/Crescendo or any other combo "Broken", no. These changes give chances to GWFs to have other Encounter/At-Wills/Dailies good (Wicked Strike, Punishing Charge, Spinning Strike, Avalanche of Steel, Slam, Not So Fast) and with new Builds. It would make the GWF player calculating when they should use their power, alternating Sprint and their powers, like Punishing Charge/Mighty Leap, and not the thing you hate "Mod 3 GWF"
This would make the glasscanon GWF viable, but not broken, because he'd stay squishy, easily killable in rotations, the fight now would depend of the skill between GWF and the ennemy.
3 - the "combat designer" got 4 classes to "balance" in this module (new class), but forgot to see them in perspective. cw is perma freeze a gf can easily control the opponents now +huge party buff. why you need a meh dps? off nerfed tank?
As I said, my 14.5k Destroyer Avatar of War out DPSes my 16.7k Conqueror Timeless Hero with no GF or DC buffs involved. I don't know why people say GWFs can't DPS anymore. My GWF isn't even geared and he is still out damaging my GF who has 2k more GS.
The only thing I notice on my GWF is that he cannot sit in red all day, and I don't have a problem with that as it was a bit stupid having the second best DPSer and best tank rolled into one.
GFs have not and will not replace GWFs in the offensive roll. Destroyers still outperform Conquerors in the paingiver stakes.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
What dps, tank still cant dps (and shouldnt), he can so the GWF could dps them. U have problem that u need tank to cooperate with him?
Absolutely no problem. It was about time we needed a tank in this game. The problem is, that besides your GF or your DC, why would you take a GWF into your group when you know that a similarly geared CW (or SW, or perhaps even HR) will do BETTER dps and CONTROL than the GWF? It's simple, if you sacrifice everything for one role, you should be **** good at it, not mediocre. Yes, the GWF can still DPS, can still out-dps a freaking tank, but NOT another DPS spec toon like a CW. That's the problem, and that's why all LFMs ask for CWs once again like we're back in mod 1.
Comments
are we the top DPSers ? no but in my opinion throwing up the biggest number at the end of a dungeon is insignificant to having a smooth dungeon run. I run a dps/control hybrid (IV destro) I gather up enemies with my "Come and get it" and push them over with "Front line surge" (if they are on their back they wont be on the HRs or CWs faces) combine that with "Wicked strike" and "Indominable battle strike" and burn em up. Gone are the days of "hey I am a GWF with 16k or higer GS everyone in the dungeon is here to support me and be loot vacuums as I cut a swath of destruction through this dungeon and all should grovel before my awesome overall damage numbers ye pesants! there are 3 play styles you can choose from or even pick and mix.
super squishy? gear not that good? go sentinal you wont be top dps but you will be alive at the end of the fight.
wanna do a good bit of dps and ether have the def to survive or are good at dodging red? SM destroyer.
like a bit of both worlds? how about IV destroyer?
PvP may need a bit of a tweaking due to some CW powers being a bit on the ridiculous side and GFs almost perma shield. maybe tad tweak on the HR's thorn ward is in order too(lasts too long and hits too hard). I could also talk about TRs and the perma-stealth but it doesnt appear to be going anywhere. you can beat them for the most part being that they tend to be somewhat predicable and super squishy out of stealth you just need to learn their hiding spots. if you find you cant beat a perma at a node then leave it and go to another node. people tend to forget its not who has the most kills wins its who holds the points uncontested longest. you just need to find out where you are most productive to your team.
another thing that people arent looking at is the ranks were just reset so you have hardcore PvP guilds and guys with 17-19k GS against new PVPers and not so geared players so until the dust settles its a bit of a cluster bleep.
before this mod we were absolute steamrollers and most matches I would get anywhere from 18-25 kills with a hand full of deaths. I even went 40/2 a couple times and i wouldnt say I an elite by no means, but I dont suck ethe. this mod I actually have to pay attention and plan, not just wait for you to make a mistake then repeatedly bash you to the ground until you fall down and I kick you over.
for the TL/DR people GWFs are fine with the changes now and things just need a little dialing in nobody needs nerfed no class is unkillable. some of the CW powers arent quite working as intended from what I have seen but nothing to "OMGWHYPWE I gonna quit ur gamez" over.
as for PvE I know last module SM were out dpsing IV. I think they are pretty close this mod though as long as they are both destroyer. but I would go with whatever you like to play. I just cant give up threatening rush even with the 3 charges and decreased damage I like the mobility and the extra 15% damage from the mark
could you use this link http://nwcalc.com/ to mark powers and talents to use in a build pve dps?
Sorry for the trouble
Now we have to "choose between being a "tank" or dps. gf, like a tank, has a new standard - I will not even comment about the perma freeze cw - then we should be on the same level as the warlock because... if you have a full perma freeze guy or a super buff tank, there is no reason for you to take an average dps just because he is "off tank". is puerile (or malicious) imagine that.
For this, the combat designer should have done, no buffs, but adjusted broken aspects of the class. months were "dedicated to gwf" and the only change he made was to recycle mark/ a lot of nerfs.
if the class was working properly now. my rotation would be bf / ds and ibs. ie, I would be increasing the party damage by 13% (nothing for gf, but not bad) and beating REALLY hard using a bf (less than a anvil of doom, but aoe).
unfortunately, as the bf does not work with critical, and, for my last test, dont shared bonus.
the class was clearly sabotaged in this module.
I'm going to start with, I play a TR, CW, GWF, in that order. Coming from the TR perspective, welcome to the land of the nerfed. Expect to work hard to adapt, and expect it to take time. When you do finally find something that works in pvp, it might be pretty distasteful, something like perma-sprint, or a intimidation build. People will call you a coward, and cheesy, and skillless. Did you ever think TRs liked where they were at? First of all, I am not saying GWF might still be on the same level as TR in PVP. PVE however, your just fine.
You might have to step up your game, there are new kids on the block. With regards to CW, I initially was avoiding my own like the plague. CW has got the cooties in a big way, they are public enemy number 1, kind of like GWF used to be......... To be fair, CW DID get nerfed hard in POTENTIAL pve damage, and not in a small way. Personally, I am loving this change, control has been increased, and that is exactly what I always wanted out of my CW.
I am doing less than HALF of the damage I was doing M3, HV set is now my only debuff which means substantially less party damage as well. Here is the difference, I can now maintain a crit rotation while picking my nose. If you were anywhere close to competitive with TOP-LEVEL pve cws in the paingiver chart, you will probably now be out-performing them. If you were on par with average CWs, then probably nothing has changed. My old rotation was steal time, COI, chill strike, and shard. This rotation took a lot of skill to perfect and use to it's maximum potential. By the time I got to that level was actually very close to the end of M3. With it, I could run into a room of T2 mobs, pop a daily, do 100k+ aoe damage and kill them all, but this was not 100% of the time, there was variance, mostly in how eye of the storm worked.
I would like to say, I am not a top geared CW, 15k, 5.5k power, normal vorp enchant. And mod4 I am not specced for MAX damage, not that I was for M3 either. My new rotation is is steal time, entangling force, icy terrain, and finally sudden storm. This may not be, and is probably not the ideal rotation for damage, but I am loving the control. Damage is a bit harder to quantify, but at the end of the rotation, including daily, I'm looking at something like 40-50k damage aoe. EOTS however, is completely cake, and takes 0 skill now. All you have to do is build around the 20 second cooldown, and 4 second duration. With that, you can pop off a full crit encounter rotation + daily to boot.
EOTS is what is ruining PVP as well, mostly anyway. CW got a lot of boosts in pvp, and regardless of EOTS they would still be a tough opponent. I did a test with my CW over around 5 dominion matches. I tried matches with EOTS and spell storm slotted, matches with with just spell storm, and a match with just EOTS. First of all, I am Oppressor, full on, all 31 paragon feats. No juicy assailing force or thaum feats for me. Did it matter? Hell naw.
EOTS + spell storm: ray of frost was monster could take out anyone in seconds with a crit encounter rotation + ROF. GF, GWF, combat HR..... didn't matter, dead in seconds.
EOTS, no spell storm : Ray of frost was noticeably weaker, crit encounters and daily were still burying people.
Spell storm, no EOTS: Ok now i'm getting owned. My HP is 23k, I have no tenacity, I am a PVE spec CW, I am butter on a bald monkey. All that control didn't keep GWFs from closing on my, and they were ripping me to shreds. I could CC combat HRs pretty well if I started with icy rays, but I had trouble bringing them to below half health without an ice knife, meanwhile, they were ripping huge chunks out of me, did better after I timed a dodge after their rush to avoid the boar knockdown. GF was still pretty easy, could CC the hell out of them with Opressor chill. Got to face a SW once or twice, have to admit they might be pretty scary once people start gearing them, that soul puppet is incredibly annoying, shift for them kinda sucks tho haha.
Anyway, be aware. EOTS auto procs on a CWs first attack. That's right AUTO-PROCS! Not chance, boom, it's just there, and for the next 4 seconds the CW is a burst manic that can slay gods. Surprised if your charging into the fray, two cws target you and you go down instantly? Don't be, imagine if your FLS, take down, and IBS all crit back to back.......... When coming upon a CW for the first time, bait them into 1 attack, take cover, count to four, go for the kill. Count to 10, create some space, start from the beginning. Really, EOTS just needs to be removed from pvp, but hey, that's not my call. For now, we can adapt the best we can, I have on my TR using the above tactic and rest assured, there is at least one class that can go toe to toe with M4 CW and stomp them like brain dead kittens, and I am loving every minute of it.
Now a DPS GF is tankier than mod 3 GWF with huge DPS and huge utility for team (threat and broken damage buffes for team, Battle Fury for GWF just sucks so hard compared to this).
You should really play a GWF before you say such silly things. How are you "pushing them over"? No more prone silly. If you weren't such a silly twerp and actually played a GWF you'd know that. Fail troll is fail.
This. I'm telling you guys GF is the new GWF. And GWF is the new toon to delete to make a spot for your GF or Melee SW. I'm one of the suckers that bought a $75 dragon pack so at least I got an extra char slot so I can keep my GWF. (He's got mad Leadership yo!)
I try to find a rationale for these changes. I have the impression that they leveled classes based on projection, fantasy or lying, they had over gwf. immortal, better control of the game, most damage in the game, etc, just "smash the keyboard". In short, devs can not identify a hyperbole.
so let's play with a system of "classification". the m3 gwf was a Class "8 star" described as "11 stars". they put the cw / gf 10 stars (real) and decreased 1 star gwf, being now a real 7 stars class and not 10.
of course, the "gameplay" became easy (proportional to the hyperbole). people say "my god, cw is hard like quantum physics", the honest gwf player say "yes, gwf is easy to play", dev imagine a crazy thing and, bang!, you have a perma freeze class (or instant kill in pvp).
i can not say nothing about gf, just that: my ibs, in any circumstances, not hit by 100k playing solo(9k base power). if the bf was working properly, I'd be 84k.
IMO your a little off base here. I've always been top DPSer in the party, I play Destroyer spec and am purely offensive. Now HR's and CW's are More tankier then the dude in full scale plate armor. This makes no sense. Sent GWF's are fine, but Dest. GWFs are totally unviable. And now HR's Do as much as more DPS then me. In mod2/3 I had a very viable Dest. build. Mod 4' after several respecs I still die faster than clothies, and do less damage even though I'm purely specced for Damage. The Dest. tree either needs a boost in Surviability or a major boost in burst damage or a balance of both. In most matches with two or three of my team and two or more of the enemies team I am falling so fast after three or four attacks against me.
By the way IV still is more viable for DPS PvE as your able to put more Damage out due to short animations. Sword Master is still garbage, Flourish did not get the boost it should have.
if you actually read it I am talking about pve since you do not PvP in dungeons silly rabbit and yes FLS still knocks down most trash mobs
def= 2321
deflect= 1385
Lifesteal= 1460
until you hit close to those stats dont try to push power you will find yourself a bit squishy
I hope that helps but you might not want to listen to me since apparently I am just a "fail trolling twerp" that "doesnt even play a GWF" lol *winks @ dogorox*
in pvp I run with FLS resto strike and IBS on my bar in full corrupted BI gear W/ weapon and offhand and in most matches I can get some decent kills and be a good asset to the team but only if I get in their face and play smart. yes i do die a lot faster and more in PvP this mod but I will freely admit that last mod going 20+ kills and 2-6 deaths was OP
as for PvE I know I will never out DPS a CW like I did in mod 2 using Kolatmasters leeroy jenkins IV sent build but with the cap to singularity dropped I do my part to help control adds and burn them with come and get it and FLS
you may be right on the SM being not as viable for PvE since I only specced it for about 3 hours on test and didnt like it but I didnt get a chance to parse it with ACT
if you are wanting to be top dps with comparable gear to the CWs (or SW from what I hear are beast) I am sorry but with the current ajustments this mod you just arent gonna do it and you may want to roll a CW if that is what gives you enjoyment in the game. to me I like playing GWF and I try to find a way to make it work and would never say destro builds arent viable, thats just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I would recconmend waiting for the dust to settle before making snap judgements on specs this early into the mod
^ And this why we can't have nice things. Same kind of failure every mod. Why should the wizards be so special? I ran VT with 13.2 GS CW and I barely did 2mil more damage than him. I'm fully DPS specced, over 18k GS with over 10k power. It just doesn't make any sense.
May I ask, what makes you think that a GWF should match a GFs tankiness? Since when did scale armour = full plate armour, chainmail and a shield? One is designed to eat a lot of damage, the others is designed to take some damage.
As for damage, I have a Destroyer GWF (14.5k, AoW) and a Conqueror GF (16.7k TH) and the GWF still out damages the GF. GFs hit harder, but not GWF hard. GFs will be unable to run maximum DPS builds in dungeons anyway, because they will there to buff and hold aggro, not deal the damage. You cry about Into the Fray vs Battle Fury? Guess what, your GWF gets massive benefits from the GF's buff, which means YOU hit harder.
Wow. Did you pay attention to what the guy said or did you just get mad, bro? Last time I checked - which was yesterday - both the GF and GWF can still prone NPCs with Frontline Surge.
Were you in a PVP match with 25k HP? Stepping on a node with 25k HP is basically asking to be killed.
This mentality is another reason we can't have nice things. Mod 3 I had 28k and with Purified Black ice armor I had a very viable DPS build, mainly because at a 19k gs it provided enough survivability and the control was there to land big hits, especially when putting players prone with IBS+crit. Why should Desto's be forced to sacrifice damage for HP? this mystical Balance Dev's keep saying they are seeking should allow both specs to be viable. I play GWF to be a big melee DPS being mobile to help out my team from node to node by landing big hits+having the survivability to last more than 3 hits.. I've tested out every class but SW and I dislike them all. GWF is all I play and I have no desire to go sent. and sit on a node and get beat on while taking forever to kill an opponent.
No one is saying GWF should be tankier than GF, however they should have more survivability than a CW or HR and right now Destro's do not. They fall within seconds of entering a node.
I play both PvE and PvP Few CW's out DPS me, I still do a tremendous amount of DPS in Mod 4. Those CW's that do out damage me do so I AoE, but when it comes to Single Target DPS they fall behind fast, as it should be. GWF is supposed to be the king of single target DPS. I should be able to have an adequate ability in PvP not be totally useless.
Really all that needed to be changed from Mod 3 for Mod 4 is fix roar and fix healing depression on Unstoppable. Destro's have suffered immeasurably now, and people shouldn't be tossing these GWF is where it needs to be until they play destroyer. Some one summed Destroyer up earlier in the thread perfectly: GWF Destro is now a glass pistol instead of a glass Canon.
Devs please give Destro only a survivability increase by Addng more tankieness or a big boost in burst damage to compete with CW pvp damage. I'd actually prefer mild amounts of both.
if you spec all dps and no survivability its called glass cannon and yes you will be squishy or you can drop the minor dps increase of rampaging madness for endless consumption get you about 10% lifesteal and lifesteal your way to victory its as simple as that.
as for pvp yes the first 2 or 3 days after the rankings were reset I was being melted left and right by CWs and HRs and throwing everything I had at GFs with all the effectiveness of flailing at them with a wet tubesock but now that the ubers with all orange artifacts and full rank 10s and perfect enchants are back up in their own bracket where they belong it is much better. plus they fixed the storm spell proccing off chill stacks.
I actually have to play smart now and not just wait till someone makes a mistake and takedown, FLS, IBS and then kick them over all match (I refuse to use roar because it wasnt working as intended but that was just my own personal opinion and I didnt need a bugged encounter to do work in doms)
my full corrupted set with weapons gives me a 17.6k GS and 28k hp (22% tenacity) and my last two hotenow doms were
15/0/11 and17/3/21 and all I did was switch out takedown for restoring strike (hits hard + gives life) so honestly I cant see how people can say IV destro is not viable anymore unless they are doing somthing horribly wrong
I am sorry if it butthurts people that instead of coming in here like chicken little and screaming the sky is falling I took the Marine Corps motto of Improvise, Adapt and Overcome. I dont have to be 40/2/25 or 28/4/12 like I was last 2 mods my Epeen can take it
You're completely lost.... Your GS is 17k and your talking about being in a bracket against players with 9-14k. Of course your going to get kill streaks that high. Yesterday I was on page 391 got matched into a game in a similar bracket and went 48-1-18. My GS is 19.4k in PvP and 20.2k in PvE. I should be competitive against the guys your talking about flailing tube socks at. I should be hitting them hard enough to kill one of them in a rotation, not two or three of them. I should have the survivability to stay in a fight 3 vs 3 on a node. Right now it's not there.
your comparing apples to oranges man seriously. Your GS is over 17k, your not going to have any problems in PVE causes there is no PVE content for GS as high as we have. Come on man. I have no issues in PvE I still do blazingly high DPS too, but when content comes out, and hopefully lostmauth is, We will get smoked.
Sure when I que alone I get put in a match where I own cause my record stinks now, but when I que with a premade with my guild and get put against lightning panda's or Kouzkou I'm not viable I end up like 3-18-4, where as in Mod 3 with my "glass canon" build I could stay competitive in guild pre mades against Exodus/Phalanx. I have all legendary artifacts and rank 10's, and your GS isn't far behind mine so lets compare apples to apples.
ETA I used Corrupt Mod 3 with a cleric and it was great, now use it against 17-18k teams and your melt. Purified pre Mod four gave me a prefect balance of survivability and DPS, now there's no survivability in Similarly Gear scored teams. Purified would still work better for you now though
as for PvP
1. again the rankings were reset so the premades with your gear score 18+k are in with the 9-14kers thats why the other people are having so much trouble I wasnt refering to you specifically
2. the module has been live for 4 days and there are plenty of bugs like the CW spellstorm and the blue dragon glyph a big invisible wall in dread ring, other artifacts not working properly lots of things they need to fix I am sure PvP balance is somewhere on the list and even if its not people need to chill its just a game.
I think you're completely overreacting....
I have already spent more time on this thread than I care to. I am gonna go play my game and enjoy myself, I am sorry if you cant do that.
wait, wait, wait... You know what that means? part of gwf damage is gf damage. this is not a disadvantage in any way.
This is the chasm between the two classes now.and as I already said: bf DONT works (if it works, ok)
2 - I do not have to ignore the cw / sw. no, no, no. gwf was sabotaged in a justification to differentiate roles. but the same was not done for the cw. he does not need to make a choice. for what i need?
3 - the "combat designer" got 4 classes to "balance" in this module (new class), but forgot to see them in perspective. cw is perma freeze a gf can easily control the opponents now +huge party buff. why you need a meh dps? off nerfed tank?
as a module can be dedicated to this class, and this dedication have summarized a lot of nerfs and reuse a gf mechanical?
Module 3 was dedicated to gwf, and nothing special was done to inflate not be a lot of destroyer feets at the same time they gave a series of secret nerfs.
If we wanted to have a GWF who deals damages and who is viable in PvP, then there is another Tree exactly for it : Instigator. This is why this Tree HAS TO BE REWORKED.
When it will be its turn, I'll expect a rework into a glasscanon/highburst with DR piercing/crit, with high mobility, few controls, high burst (with DR Reduces, true damages, passing deflection for example), but sucks in tanking.
Actually Destroyer has Sprint or even Punishing Charge but Punishing Charge doesn't give control immune (and Mighty Leap ... Mighty Leap ...)
My propositions to make Instigator viable :
P.S : for the damages changes of a Encounter ect, let's say the GWF affected has 8k power.
T1 : Student of the Sword :
Your critical strikes lower your target's DR to your attacks by 1/2/3/4/5% for 5 seconds. This effect does not stack.
Before the nerf, it could stack 3 times. It was a lot because the old GWF had damages and tanking. But now he must choose between damages and tanking. This Tree should be pvp damages. So this must get a little change, but not against squishy classes (would be too much), but against Tanky classes.
Your critical strikes lower your ACTUAL target's DR to your attacks by 2/4/6/8/10 % for 5 seconds. Block and Unstoppable also count.
For a CW for example, if he has 30% DR, the reduce will be 3%.
Less than the actual, but it's better, if Instigator were reworked, the feat would be a little bit too powerfull against low DR, but still not good against high DR (GWF Sentinel, GF ...).
The point is to nerf it a bit against squishies classes and buff it against tank, to have an equal chance.
For example, a GWF Sentinel should have between 80% (around 40% without unstoppable) and 120% DR (but not really true, I don't really know how does it work).So a Sentinel GWF will see his 120% DR reduced to 108 (10% of 120 --> -12%).
Fleet Footed :
Whenever you control a target, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This feat can be really good to catch someone, but in fact, it's bad. What's the point of gaining Run Speed when your target is controlled, so she can't move ? GWF'd rather gaining this Run Speed after the controls affect himself. This feat also encourages being a glasscanon with high mobility/burst but being really squishy.
Whenever you are controlled, you gain an additional 3/6/9/12/15% Run Speed for 3 seconds.
This change allows GWF to approach his target a little bit easier. You can think it can be broken, but in fact, not that much, he'll still take the controls, and damages. GWF can play with more skill with this change : he can permuting Sprint or not, to take a little control like Slow, to gain the Run Speed and then Sprints.
Vicious Advantage : Combat Advantage now grants an additional 1/2/3/4/5% Crit chance and damages.
This. With the Instigator changes I propose, it's perfectly fine.
Stunning Flourish :
Flourish has an extra chance 1/2/3/4/5% to crit and stuns for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 second on last hit.
Flourish stuns longer. Aw. If we kept this feat and buffed it, it would be overpowered (enjoy the 4 seconds stun). With the Instigator changes, Flourish would have too much Critical chance.
Flourish now gains an additional of X/X/X/X/X range (a very little buff of range, no worries) and now gives a control immunity while casting, but you take 1/2/3/4/5% more damage during this time.
You can think it can be overpowered. But in fact, no. Actually Flourish has a big cast time, can be interrupted, and easily dodgeable. This feat compensates it by buffing a very little bit the range, and gives control immunity during the cast (like Crescendo/Spinning Strike), but you take more damage during this time. Flourish would still be easily dodgeable because of his cast time and obvious animation.
The little buff of range helps more and control immunity on this long animation is a must GWF had to have since start of the game. Now, a GWF who slots Flourish, is dangerous. Now, an ennemy, instead of obviously using a control to never let you using this power, must dodge/block/run.
It would not be broken. Why ? An Instigator GWF is a highburst in melee, but squishy, not tanky. And when he's near to you, he should be really dangerous.
P.S : stun duration lowered to 2 seconds from 3 seconds (it would be broken for rotations).
Or the IV feat :
Frontline Surge deals 1/2/3/4/5% more damages and (now stuns) ennemies for 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1 sec more.
Once again, remove stun. 4 seconds stun, too much.
Frontline Surge deals 3/6/9/12/15% more damages.
With the recent high damages nerf of Frontline Surge, 15% more damages seems legit for Instigator. It would be, around +250-300 damages (actually the damages are 1800-2100). Not a lot, but it's AoE, in range.
Nimble Runner :
Sprint and Punishing Charge now grants 2/4/6/8/10% deflect chance.
Sprint needn't. It is already good (or almost too much good, 30% DR is maybe a little bit too high). Punishing Charge should have Control Immunity, but it would be "Never CCed GWF" with the actual Sprint.
Punishing Charge now grants 3/6/9/12/15% more deflect chance and deals 4/8/12/16/20% more damages.
P.S : Punishing Charge : 3 charges, but the damages are between 800-1100, +20%, it means +160-220.
This change would recompensate the players who calculate when they'd take high damages, and/or if they want to engage/escape more quickly than Sprint, but without Control Immunity, this is why they must use it at the right time (Oh god, is GWF becoming a skilled class ?). One thing which would be good, is to change the Punishing Charge animation (GWF rising his Weapon like he wants to be Immune/Protected) into THE OLD Sprint animation (it would be so beautiful)
Little change to do : making Punishing Charge a little bit more responsive when he casts and when the animation ends.
Allied Opportunity :
Mighty Leap and Not So Fast deals an additional of 2/4/6/8/10% damages and you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.
This feat gives Combat Advantage, a good synergy with Vicious Advantage. But, the damages buffs are a little bit too low (check base damages, Mighty Leap --> around 1400-1600, Not So Fast around 1800-2200) and the Combat Advantage Duration is too short because ennemies can kite, run, dodge, control you and waste this time easily.
Mighty Leap deals an additional of 10/20/30/40/50% damages and Not So fast 10/15/20/25/30% damages you and your allies gain Combat Advantage against the damaged target for 0.8/1.6/2.4/3.2/4 seconds.
50% more damages of around 1900 (max base damage) means +900, so 2700. For Mighty Leap, a jump, not a lot, but not bad. For Not So fast, 30% of 2200 (max damage) means 660, so 2860, not that much, not that bad, because : melee with just a little slow. But with 10 seconds CD. Perfect damages with perfect mechanics, don't you think ? The Combat Advantage is 1 second longer, not that much, 4 seconds, the ennemies have the time to dodge, or run, or control etc but they must take care.
If you think it's still too short, there are other ways to get Combat Advantage, and Not So Fast CD is 10 seconds, and Mighty Leap is 12 seconds.
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit.
Good for PvE, but in fact, not really, because the damages are reduced in the exactly same mechanic. So this is a good for a bad, the feat is finally not worth. You know what will I change
Group Assault : Wicked Strike now deals an additional 1/2/3/4/5% for each target hit and the damages are not reduced anymore for each target you hit beyond the first.
A better Wicked Strike, and would be good with the Artifact Weapon for PvE or even PvP (but I don't think personally).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike and Avalanche of Steel now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%.
Can be good for some situations. But the point is Avalanche of Steel slow is not good (slow after prone, but i'm not sure).
Crippling Strike : Spinning Strike now slow your target for 10/20/30/40/50%, and Avalanche of Steels now Slow your target while you are in the air by 10/15/20/25/30%. Slam can now crit.
Avalanche of Steel was easily dodgeable with dodges, and even without when there were 2 or more people and you wanted to hit them all. Now Avalanche of Steel slows while you are in the air, which makes the Daily dangerous because it's less easily dodgeable (but still). And Slam which crits, this is more a fix than a buff, because it always had to crit. Giving the crit Slam in this feat, why not ?
To fix : Spinning Strike OFTEN doesn't give Control Immune while using it.
Final Feat :
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 12%, but taking direct damage will disable this bonus for 3 seconds.
The thing is you always take damages, you're a GWF, you take damages to approach your ennemies. In very rare cases you will keep this buff.
Instigator's Vengeance : Your damage is increased by 15 %, but taking direct damage will divide this bonus by 2 for 3 seconds. In addition, 8% of your damages ignore your target DR.
Giving more damages to GWFs who come at the right time, or have a good positioning, is a thing to keep. Taking damages now doesn't disable the feat, it now doesn't make the feat totally useless (and not broken, 7.5% more damages or 15%, Destroyer in PvE has permanently +40% more damages, in PvP it depends). 8% of GWF's damages ignoring target's DR, it means, for a 5k Encounter, he deals 400 TRUE damages (not that much). It means if he killed someone alone, with 30k HP (including regeneration/lifesteal/artifact), he dealt 2400 TRUE damages (not a lot, but this is good).
It is now a real Final Feat for Instigator.
The reasons of these changes are actual Instigator is really bad but has a good potential. Those buffs are not "damnly broken buffs". It wouldn't make the actual IBS/Crescendo or any other combo "Broken", no. These changes give chances to GWFs to have other Encounter/At-Wills/Dailies good (Wicked Strike, Punishing Charge, Spinning Strike, Avalanche of Steel, Slam, Not So Fast) and with new Builds. It would make the GWF player calculating when they should use their power, alternating Sprint and their powers, like Punishing Charge/Mighty Leap, and not the thing you hate "Mod 3 GWF"
This would make the glasscanon GWF viable, but not broken, because he'd stay squishy, easily killable in rotations, the fight now would depend of the skill between GWF and the ennemy.
isnt destro the only tree worth taking now ? sent does about 0 dmg in pvp and cw blow sent up in 3 sec anyway, and in pve theres gf
the most one can hope for now is that the class powers work (or back in time).
As I said, my 14.5k Destroyer Avatar of War out DPSes my 16.7k Conqueror Timeless Hero with no GF or DC buffs involved. I don't know why people say GWFs can't DPS anymore. My GWF isn't even geared and he is still out damaging my GF who has 2k more GS.
The only thing I notice on my GWF is that he cannot sit in red all day, and I don't have a problem with that as it was a bit stupid having the second best DPSer and best tank rolled into one.
GFs have not and will not replace GWFs in the offensive roll. Destroyers still outperform Conquerors in the paingiver stakes.
What dps, tank still cant dps (and shouldnt), he can so the GWF could dps them. U have problem that u need tank to cooperate with him?
Steel and Magic
Absolutely no problem. It was about time we needed a tank in this game. The problem is, that besides your GF or your DC, why would you take a GWF into your group when you know that a similarly geared CW (or SW, or perhaps even HR) will do BETTER dps and CONTROL than the GWF? It's simple, if you sacrifice everything for one role, you should be **** good at it, not mediocre. Yes, the GWF can still DPS, can still out-dps a freaking tank, but NOT another DPS spec toon like a CW. That's the problem, and that's why all LFMs ask for CWs once again like we're back in mod 1.