Are you saying that although the AD generation *potential* didn't change, the real Ad generation changed? If yes, then how? If no, that what are we talking about?
No, I've always been saying the rate of AD generation, but it seems too difficult to ask for a bit of comprehension please.
And it was always like this, the limit of chars per account didn't change either, therefore the amount of AD generated in the system did not increase, what you were suggesting.
I can quote every post you made, where you declare a constant rate of AD influx and you maintain that it's from since beta because character limit remains the same. But where's the point? When suddenly you will just agree with me on the pretense of having common sense without comprehending neither what yourself or I'm writing.
Why?Of course the influx was smaller at the very beginning (leveling leadership to 20 takes about 3 months)Sigh.... Of course the population changes, but only the AD generation PER PLAYER (or maybe per char, depends if you actually play your alts or just milk them) counts. More players = more AD influx, but also proportionally bigger AD demand, Zen influx&demand.
You said clearly 'More players = more AD influx'. Now just learn that this is an increasing rate, and not a constant AD influx.
You actually didn't. You just claim it is so, but did not explain how. You just keep saying one can make more alts and use them for leadership/invoking, that however didn't change since beta. Actually, you could make more AD with leadership before it got nerfed.
I did clearly, repeatedly. You just couldn't comprehend.
Maintaining that the AD influx remains constant since beta makes absolutely no sense. It's only true if one continues to have the 2 characters since beta and the game population hasn't changed at all. I have also explain that your character limit does nothing to maintain that constant repeatedly, it is only a limit from a single player's perspective, because it's the cumulative AD generation that is increasing of the game population.
As they do since the game launch. To make this point valid you'd have to demonstrate that players can generate more AD (again, PER PERSON, I can't understand why is it not obvious) than they could in the past when the zax was balanced.
More of this since beta thing and not telling the difference between the amount of AD entering the economy, and it's rate.
this is just wrong and would make the life of newer/less wealthy players even harder than it already is, to the point NW would bleed them out rapidly
Quite the contrary, new players entering this economy have no choice but be forced to play catch up through Leadership, further increasing the rate of AD influx. However, there is no scenario where the new player wins out because Leadership AD is generated passively, and because of the daily cap of 24k AD (Finally! Your favorite topic!). Existing players will continue to out-generate AD than new players, while the ever increasing rate of AD influx continue to dilute this currency and pushing AH prices higher. And later players will be in worse shoes than this current group of players while facing increasing AH prices.
However, if you take Leadership out of the equation, there is now an even playing field. An active new player will likely be hitting his daily cap from playing, while an existing player will be the one having to make the effort to play actively to keep up with the new player. Why? Because finally, time is the only denominator to AD generation or rather time invested to actually generate AD aka play the game, do the dailies.
Not saying this can come to pass immediately due to the existing amount of AD in circulation, however with the alternative (the current situation), we are progressing in the opposite direction in terms of driving prices.
I'm not wasting my time with the rest, apparently mention bots, coal wards enchanted keys in the context posts no longer counts as naming them, it isn't my job to explain to you what you don't understand about them and their effects, nor what PWE is trying to do. And yes, artificial demand caused by underlying problems of the economy. And when everyone is forced into the labor camp to increase the rate of AD influx, no fixed price AD sink can put a dent to AD circulation.
As of 07:00 PST on 7/31, we will be implementing a new security system that will transition some accounts into a probationary period until we can verify the validity of their real money payments. During the time that these accounts are on probation, they will be unable to sell Zen on the Astral Diamond Exchange and all Zen Market purchases will be bound to their account. Once the probationary period has ended, they will be able to resume normal Zen Market and Astral Diamond Exchange activity.
This system is being implemented to prevent players from transacting with malicious users, who participate in account compromising or fraudulent activities. Player account safety is a top priority and we will be optimizing this system to make it as nonintrusive as possible.
No, I've always been saying the rate of AD generation, but it seems too difficult to ask for a bit of comprehension please.
Funny that YOU are telling me about rading comprehension. Although I'm starting to suspect you understand all I said, but you twist it on purpose.
When suddenly you will just agree with me on the pretense of having common sense without comprehending neither what yourself or I'm writing. I know what we both are writing. I will agree with you on anything when you start making sense.
You said clearly 'More players = more AD influx'. Now just learn that this is an increasing rate, and not a constant AD influx.
Clearly you don't understand what I said. I'll try again. More players will make more OVERALL AD, that is irrelevant to the ZAX however, because more players will also consume more ad, and generate more Zen. What really matters is ad generated PER PLAYER. Just like in the real life: a 3 person family that has total income of 100$ is wealthier than a family of 8 with total income of 200$, because moe people consume more.
I did clearly, repeatedly. You just couldn't comprehend.
You *claimed* repeatedly, but you didn't show any evidence. Repeating a claim is not the same as explaining.
And we're back to this. Thought we were finally getting somewhere with the whole common sense rant.
So why am I wrong again? I don't see you disproving my point anywhere (again, just saying that I am wrong without explaining why does not count).
More of this since beta thing and not telling the difference between the amount of AD entering the economy, and it's rate.
First, knowing how it was then and what exactly changed is crucial to understanding current situation. Second, so maybe you will tell me the difference, and how is it disproving my point?
Quite the contrary, new players entering this economy have no choice but be forced to play catch up through Leadership, How is that relevant? Again (I'm getting tired) they generate AD, but also consume AD ... blah blah per person.
further increasing the rate of AD influx. However, there is no scenario where the new player wins out because Leadership AD is generated passively, and because of the daily cap of 24k AD (Finally! Your favorite topic!). Existing players will continue to out-generate AD than new players, while the ever increasing rate of AD influx continue to dilute this currency and pushing AH prices higher. And later players will be in worse shoes than this current group of players while facing increasing AH prices. You described the current situation pretty accurately, except for one thing. The reason why we have an ever growing AD excess is not an increasing AD influx (or influx rate if you insist, whatever), but the increased Zen demand. How do I know that? Because in the the past ZAX was balanced (i.e. all generated AD were flushed out via AD sinks) and it changed only after Cryptic started to make Zen more attractive (weekly sales, new items, different promotions). Solution: either decrease Zen demand (but why would they do that, they want to sell Zen) or increase AD demand.
However, if you take Leadership out of the equation, there is now an even playing field. An active new player will likely be hitting his daily cap from playing, while an existing player will be the one having to make the effort to play actively to keep up with the new player. Why? Because finally, time is the only denominator to AD generation or rather time invested to actually generate AD aka play the game, do the dailies. Ok... so instead of creating better sinks you *could* just reduce players' income, but that would only have a temporary effect (long term consequence would be losing players since that would increase the frustration level). Ad may be accumulated slower, but still accumulated. People need something to spend their AD on, otherwise why would they sell their Zen? Killing AH slowly by making everything BoP doesn't help either.
Not saying this can come to pass immediately due to the existing amount of AD in circulation, however with the alternative (the current situation), we are progressing in the opposite direction in terms of driving prices.
I'm not wasting my time with the rest, apparently mention bots, coal wards enchanted keys in the context posts no longer counts as naming them, it isn't my job to explain to you what you don't understand I understand more than you gives me credit for and it is, frankly, less complicated than you make it sound. about them and their effects, nor what PWE is trying to do. And yes, artificial demand caused by underlying problems of the economy. And when everyone is forced into the labor camp to increase the rate of AD influx, no fixed price AD sink can put a dent to AD circulation. As if players are trying harder to make AD now. No sir, they've been always treyig as hard as they could. I do not understand why are you opposing AD sink idea, and they do not need to have fixed price (at least, not all of them) either.
Even if we'd have to agree to disagree in the end, I'd like to say I really enjoy arguing with you. Probaly even too much
How about good old fashioned socialist economics ... take the AH and cap every single piece that can be put in there, PWE sets this cap at whatever they think it should be, if people want to sell an item they can sell it for less to get it out faster but CANNOT sell it higher.
It didn't work in the real life, why would it work here?
lol maybe if people would stop posting enchants and other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up at ridiculous over priced values of 18-25 mil paying players would actually put their zen into the exchange.
Stuff in AH is priced as it is because people are willing to pay that much (i.e. it is not overpriced).And it is a symptom not the cause.
If crypic sells refinement points at a low prize in the wondorous bazaar for example peridot at 1000ads (99x100k) bots must sell lower (less profit) we would have ranks10 and perfects in a normal prize and a very good ad sink.
Is the only solution i see to the economy.
That would be good indeed. If only Cryptic had any idea of pricing their stuff. Teleportation scroll - 4k AD, hahahah. And did you see the AD gear they sell (or rather, they try to sell) on the seven suns coster marked?
that doesnt solve anything and isnt helpful at all is that the meta it actually perpetuates the problem
the point i was making is that my real money that i have turned into zen is now pretty worthless because of the hard cap of 500:1 ad when in reality zen is worth way more than that clearly by the backlog.
lol the time/effort to even do that is not worth it to me .
Why, there is a plenty of stuff you could buy with zen (personally I find enchanted keys a neverending source of fun). And if you really need AD, you can just sell some AD items on AH (again, lockboxes. They seem to be more profitable now than ever).
Where are people getting the idea that making more things BoA will mend the ZAX? I mean recent history kind ofdisproves this whole notion. Coals and then Keys were made BoP and the the backlog.... just got worse. Which only makes sense.
New players coming in might add to the potential AD pool but if they go to the AH and see basics being sold at overinflated price they will probably walk away from the AH and find other avenues for getting stuff, assuming they dont just walk away from the game entirely. One of of those avenues might well be the AD selling sites that spam PE.
The recent module and addition of zen based crafting items was a really bad move if cryptic actually want some kind of stable ecomony. If they continue down the path then they will start to push more people towards putting money into the hands of the spammers as eventually it will seem that it's the only way to keep up by buying items or ad for real money that could be getting filtered into the game.
The wondrous bazaar and companion upgrading could have been a viable AD sink but the useful stuff is expensive for what they are and stuff like the gear is woefully bad so noone would consider using them even as filler gear for minions.
However it's not just PWE/cryptics greed that has caused the situation it's also down to the playerbase and the willingness of people to pay stupid sums. If it was possible to organise a serverwide strike where we refuse to buy or sell on AH, zen shop or exchange might get a message to the numpties incharge of the money but I doubt it.
It didn't work in the real life, why would it work here?
Stuff in AH is priced as it is because people are willing to pay that much (i.e. it is not overpriced).And it is a symptom not the cause.
That would be good indeed. If only Cryptic had any idea of pricing their stuff. Teleportation scroll - 4k AD, hahahah. And did you see the AD gear they sell (or rather, they try to sell) on the seven suns coster marked?
Why, there is a plenty of stuff you could buy with zen (personally I find enchanted keys a neverending source of fun). And if you really need AD, you can just sell some AD items on AH (again, lockboxes. They seem to be more profitable now than ever).
Riight... how about removing all trade from the game? (zax could stay, but then again, if you you remove AH, what would anybody need AD for?)
Seriously, why people think making things BoP will reduce backlog?
I could not agree more.
You ask why people think bop will reduce the backlog? I have 10M in zen request without needing anything. Here you are.
I quoted you word for word, twisted nothing, not my problem you are fickle. Twisty twisty.
Funnily, you've stop using your favorite catchphrase in every other post 'constant AD influx' immediately.
Which I seriously don't care, never in any of my post has your limit of AD generation per player been important. It's an argument you brought up and are trying to have by yourself, and has never been my point.
You continue to bring up theoretical examples as arguments, emphasizing the (what I call theoretical) AD generation per player being the same, and then give an example where the income doesn't scale proportionately to each person, which is what I've been telling you with Leadership. And now you have to show evidence the rate of consumption is equal to the rate of generation for any of what you are saying to be true (it is relevant to ZAX), because on either side, AD will either be draining (not currently) or entering the economy (despite your example cleverly being a draining one). A bit difficult for you when players are holding onto AD or Zen, oh wait, not consumed. At least my explanations (repeatedly) are proven by their definition itself, one only needs to comprehend.
Oh snap, that's your next point isn't it? Zen being in demand, except you are assuming Zen means consumption, where Zen cannot keep up with demand to reduce AD entering the economy. However, what we are facing is artificial Zen demand, where Zen is held which means low consumption, which means the AD entering the economy is still there, and more then backlog or AH trades suggest, until those Zen are consumed in the Zen store. Also prove to me your claim that 'all generated AD are flushed out'. No doubt prices lower temporarily to turn a quick profit (and it's simply that, and the only thing that can be proven). The ones trying to turn a quick profit won't be the ones having enough quantities of AD to sit out the event, rather the ones with less will be trying to turn a quick profit, thus they are the ones lowering prices. And you also cannot claim and account for unseen AD that's being held, otherwise prices wouldn't recover so quickly and in the current state, exceed those prior to the temporary AD sinks (easily a gauge for their effectiveness), unless you are suggesting AD gets wiped out and vast amounts enter the very next day, that's a scary rate of AD generation. And I have never opposed AD sinks, go ahead and look, I've said they can be overcome (not to mention ignored since they are totally optional), easily (and shown through personal example).
You obviously don't have a grasp on long term measures, not the binding of keys, coal wards, and removing of bots, and definitely not what I've suggested. With Leadership, you are given the allowance to pursue and push prices higher.
Without it, anyone capable of buying from the current prices can freely choose to buy or not buy. If they do, AD transfer takes place and they are out AD. They can no longer recover from that purchase near instantly or quickly enough. Anyone without adequate AD is in the same situation with the above group who chooses not to buy, until they obtain enough AD to buy becoming the former group. It no longer starts to matter if a small group gather more AD from the AH trades. AD generation becomes competitive, in the long term when AD in the possession of the majority dries up, prices will fall, AD is back in demand and Zen will enter the market, restoring prices determined by player demand, not players stepping up to meet supplier asking price (which makes it extremely difficult for new players to enter). Without Leadership, the high priced items ARE the dynamically priced AD sinks, and better than any fixed price AD sink PWE can implement. That is the long term goal in peaking the market. There will always be unhappy players leaving over a multitude of reasons, at least staying players and new ones won't have to deal with this loopy economy.
Blah blah, you need to prove things I say you said even if in fact you said something else and I am just putting it out of context to divert the attention from the fact I myself didn't provide any evidence for my claims and I'll be ignoring facts that disprove my theory. Should work perfectly if I'll throw an insult here and there.
Call me hopelessly optimistic but I still hope we can get somewhere. To avoid walls of text let's address 1 thing at time, shall we?
This posts topic will be: the average AD generation per player today and 1 year ago.
I say 1 player (on average, it is obvious that some make more, some less depending on preferred playstyle, free time to play etc.) could make just as much AD then as today. True today we have salvaging and more dailies, but all in all we have 24k/day limit. Today we can choose how to reach it, but that's all.
Call me hopelessly optimistic but I still hope we can get somewhere. To avoid walls of text let's address 1 thing at time, shall we?
This posts topic will be: the average AD generation per player today and 1 year ago.
I say 1 player (on average, it is obvious that some make more, some less depending on preferred playstyle, free time to play etc.) could make just as much AD then as today. True today we have salvaging and more dailies, but all in all we have 24k/day limit. Today we can choose how to reach it, but that's all.
So, do you agree? If not, tell why.
Then, no. I have no problems comprehending, but you seem to have issues expressing. Again I refer to your post word for word. Makes no difference though, since by previous examples, I will be accused of twisting your words into something you never said, when it's literally your words unchanged.
This is too tiring for what you are always pulling, so not going to bother with you.
No need to keep bringing in AD to the equation. The issue is simply that at the 500:1 locked in rate with a huge backlog, there is 0 incentive for anyone to sell Zen for AD. Even if they got rid of 90% of everyone's AD on the server, this backlog situation would continue. It will not let up till the backlog goes away and the Zax has the ability to drop below 500. Why? Because there is 0 risk in holding zen and 0 incentive for selling zen. It's self perpetuating. The ONLY ones selling Zen are noobs that don't know any better.
No need to keep bringing in AD to the equation. The issue is simply that at the 500:1 locked in rate with a huge backlog, there is 0 incentive for anyone to sell Zen for AD. Even if they got rid of 90% of everyone's AD on the server, this backlog situation would continue. It will not let up till the backlog goes away and the Zax has the ability to drop below 500. Why? Because there is 0 risk in holding zen and 0 incentive for selling zen. It's self perpetuating. The ONLY ones selling Zen are noobs that don't know any better.
Then, no. I have no problems comprehending, but you seem to have issues expressing. Again I refer to your post word for word. Makes no difference though, since by previous examples, I will be accused of twisting your words into something you never said, when it's literally your words unchanged.
This is too tiring for what you are always pulling, so not going to bother with you.
Ok, so what was your point with those red markings? Where did I say something that is not true?
No need to keep bringing in AD to the equation. The issue is simply that at the 500:1 locked in rate with a huge backlog, there is 0 incentive for anyone to sell Zen for AD. Even if they got rid of 90% of everyone's AD on the server, this backlog situation would continue. It will not let up till the backlog goes away and the Zax has the ability to drop below 500. Why? Because there is 0 risk in holding zen and 0 incentive for selling zen. It's self perpetuating. The ONLY ones selling Zen are noobs that don't know any better.
Once AD sinks kicked in then the rate would go down to previous levels.
AD is undervalued because of too much AD making zen worth more than 500AD per.
Saying that if the AD was gone would not get rid of the backlog while stating that people aren't selling zen due to AD not being worth it are in complete opposition to each other. This is backed up by facts and history in this very game.
Less AD in game = Lower AH prices = More bang for your Zen even at lower exchange rates(as even f2p players can afford some items it will drive up demand and prices)
No cap in ZAX = 1000 AD per Zen = Higher AH prices = Only pay to play players can actually afford inflated AH pricing as the 24k a day across however many accts you play will never be able to keep up with the power of 10$ to purchase 1 million AD.
but...
AD sinks won't work due to the fact that the people who make AD using the AH will not spend AD on any sink in the game(besides 10% AH fee which is never enough to hurt their profit margin) as they are in the business of making AD to sell for real cash. In fact AD sinks only effect actual players and have little effect on Gold spammers.
Also , as long as there are zen shop items that are BoE that you can't get in game as BoE you will have people continue to sell them for over zen market value for AD.
Patient players and bots can buy these items and then sell for more AD, then get zen from ZAX with the profit and buy even more next time. In this instance the backlog is actually helping to curtail botters profits. Though as I said patience in Zax makes it possible to make unlimited cycle of AD selling BoE items to F2Players and reinvesting into the ZAX.
Conclusion: Get rid of the stupid BoP wards from Tarmalune and invocation and stop making everything BoP.
Put a coal ward out that is available through AD purchase at 500k AD each and make those BoP.
Watch coal wards prices drop as people stop overpaying for wards on AH.
Watch AH prices fall as the endless loop of 'Buy zen, get coal ward, sell coal ward for profit, buy more zen, get more coal wards...etc' stops making these guys endless profit.
Once AD sinks kicked in then the rate would go down to previous levels.
AD is undervalued because of too much AD making zen worth more than 500AD per.
Saying that if the AD was gone would not get rid of the backlog while stating that people aren't selling zen due to AD not being worth it are in complete opposition to each other. This is backed up by facts and history in this very game.
Sort of. Sinks if done right can provide a reason to want AD. It's not the overabundance of AD causing the problem, but rather the lack of need for AD.
Since as you pointed out, everything useful has become BoP, you only need Zen. Need a Ward? Buy it for Zen. With the backlog like it is, no one has incentive to convert Zen to AD.
Until you give an incentive to use/need AD, the overabundance or even shortage of AD will have very little impact on the Zax.
Call me hopelessly optimistic but I still hope we can get somewhere. To avoid walls of text let's address 1 thing at time, shall we?
This posts topic will be: the average AD generation per player today and 1 year ago.
I say 1 player (on average, it is obvious that some make more, some less depending on preferred playstyle, free time to play etc.) could make just as much AD then as today. True today we have salvaging and more dailies, but all in all we have 24k/day limit. Today we can choose how to reach it, but that's all.
Ok, so what was your point with those red markings? Where did I say something that is not true?
The average AD generation per player today vs a year ago isn't a maximum of 24k/day.
Clearly, you must mean 1 character, 24k/day.
Let's say that's what you meant, then yes.
However you are talking about Ad generation per player, then it's still no, unless
1. Time is not a factor
2. Generates at the theoretical maximum.
(Your case scenario already ended with point 1)
(PS: Don't misrepresent me, 1 character is still 24k/day)
As if players are trying harder to make AD now. No sir, they've been always treyig as hard as they could
Even in the extreme case in the scenario you claim, let's say every one of these players a year ago pays for the maximum amount of character slots and starts to do leadership.
1. The need to level each character to unlock professions.
2. They have to start from 0 Leadership.
3. They have to unlock total of 9 professions slots.
We can average the players out and the above is still true. However, we know the extreme case isn't realistic, nor the population stagnant. But we maintain your scenario that players tend to maximize AD generation, then the average generation per player increases over time, unless the game is losing population (more leavers than joiners), then there's the possibility of the average AD generation decreasing.
However there's no real world scenario where this (quoted below) happens (due to your other scenario above):
I say 1 player (on average, it is obvious that some make more, some less depending on preferred playstyle, free time to play etc.) could make just as much AD then as today.
The 'could' is very hypothetical of having a maximum limit (not the character limit, but the limit of maximum number of characters generating) for each player that is being reached. But even as we remove the fluctuating population, a single player still has to slowly begin to start generating AD increasing through the steps above, and for each character added to his account. The exception is if there is no time involved so we can have your hypothetical scenario, in which case as I've mentioned, the scenario ends as there's no point comparing to a year later.
This posts topic will be: the average AD generation per player today and 1 year ago.
No, it cannot be the same.
EDIT: (I started the discussion on the devaluation of AD, seems I'm constantly goaded into your need to prove average AD generation per player being the same or a constant AD influx for the past 9 pages. I'm done.)
It's not that I don't want to discuss other things, it's just we need to take it step by step.
I do not claim I know what the average AD income (per player, per char...) is, I say it is not more now than it was then. Because why would it be? Motivation? Same as then. Free time you can spend playing - same (average ofc ). Max limit that is rather easy to reach if you play actively (not saying that everybody reach it ofc) - same (or was it higher in beta? nvm, it wasn't lower for sure).
And remember leadership (which, btw, was giving more AD then) is not the only way to make AD, we also have Rhix' dailies. Then there was that Tymora event (don't remember when exactly) giving huge amounts of RAD, and earlier caturday. And probably some other stuff I don't remember.
If Cryptic/PW can put accounts on probation so easily, then why not take the same logic to the ZAX?
Empty the ZAX. Cancel all current listings.
A reboot done simultaneously with the suspension of accounts will give us a reprieve, at least.
And how is that suppose to help? People would still have the same amount of AD and still be wanting zen. As soon as probation is over, you have the same backlog, only players would be more in "pitchforks and torches" mood.
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rojorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 178Bounty Hunter
edited July 2014
I have invested huge amounts of time/effort and money into this game, kinda sad it has turned out this way, mmo's used to have a bit more longevity than this if i recall correctly. Guess I've learned my lesson: never invest in a cryptic game again.
It's not that I don't want to discuss other things, it's just we need to take it step by step.
I do not claim I know what the average AD income (per player, per char...) is, I say it is not more now than it was then. Because why would it be? Motivation? Same as then. Free time you can spend playing - same (average ofc ). Max limit that is rather easy to reach if you play actively (not saying that everybody reach it ofc) - same (or was it higher in beta? nvm, it wasn't lower for sure).
And remember leadership (which, btw, was giving more AD then) is not the only way to make AD, we also have Rhix' dailies. Then there was that Tymora event (don't remember when exactly) giving huge amounts of RAD, and earlier caturday. And probably some other stuff I don't remember.
So what did chang since then?
Repeating a sentiment over and over again without evidence over the past 9 pages doesn't make it true.
Pitfall: You use a character's limit interchangeably with a player's limit.
Within your own predefined scenario, other constants and variables have little significance. Rhix's dailies is a constant, it's canceled out. An event is a variable with too short a duration and have negligible impact in the scheme of things, your 1 year long duration. And you want to add exploited AD into your calculations? It's an anomaly and is only a factor in a predefined 1 year period, not an average 1 year period, as prescribed in your scenario.
And I've explained to you, time is only an active common denominator when players cannot generate AD passively. So the most significant variable within your own scenario of players maximizing AD generation is Leadership.
I have provided the factors, math and played along to your little scenarios. Nothing I've said so far is false. Selectively ignore completely in your responses, but never disproved.
I have no idea what you are trying to do pertaining to your own topic of 'the average AD generation per player today and 1 year ago.' when you fail yet to provide an argument (with facts and evidence) to substantiate your claim.
But here's a fun suggestion for you and your obsessive fixation to need to be right about this one particular topic, post a poll "Average AD generation today and 1 year ago". Seek the affirmation you want and have a blast with it. It's definitely more fun than this.
(I'm genuinely laughing now, because what else can I do? It's too depressing to carry on this senseless debate, so have fun! Peace.)
I don't want to derail the thread to much but I will respond too the two gentlemen discussing the more AD over time.
I will just use myself and my nephew as we both play all the time started more or less a year ago (I played a month or two before he started and I'm about 390-400 days played now for some background info).
To start with I did spend a fair amount of money getting purple assets and started leveling up professions slowly over 2-3 characters.
First 1-5 months slowly was putting AD into getting more leadership assets, more characters and getting those characters to level 20 leadership and opening as many of the 9 slots per character as possible.
With in 6 months I had 14 characters probably making 150k a day in AD. Continued buying Adventurers and heroes as well as working on getting 8-9 slots on each character unlocked for maximizing AD
Since about 7 months to present I usually do about 300k AD a day I have at least 8 slots open for every character most have the full 9 and every character has at least 3 hero some as many as 12 with the rest all adventurers so it's pretty easy to max the 24k a day I usually build a back log of AD over time so I can take a week vacation and use the back log every now and again
My nephew is more or less on the same path and is only a little behind me as he's doing exactly the same thing I have done. I went from around a million AD a month in the early days to over 10 million AD a month now (I also make purple gemmed gear to sell for every profession to help pump up that AD gain so it's not all leadership but certainly Leadership is a large part of the my monthly generation). I log in 2 or 3 times a day for 15 to 20 minutes each time now with 17 characters (3 more coming up so that will lead to another 72k a day down the road soon and so it goes).
So yes I'd agree that over time most people like myself are making more AD the longer we play.
With Mod 4 coming in two weeks demand for everything is gonna skyrocket, the people who are rich now will be selling their perfect enchants for 20m a pop within weeks of the TOD release.
Repeating a sentiment over and over again without evidence over the past 9 pages doesn't make it true.
Duh!
How can players make more AD now than then again? I accept the possibilty you answered this question somewhere and I simply couldn't see it behind those walls of text, in which case I ask you to repeat it, with one short sentence if possible and without telling what I may said. I know what I said, I just want an answer to that one question.
I'm making more AD now than when I started the game. I have more characters with higher Leadership and access to dailies etc. Also, once you have a certain minimum amount of AD other opportunities open up (see Trace's guide for details). Some of these merely recirculate AD already in existence but some generate brand new AD.
A couple of posts up is another example.
AD generation per player is not a constant. Therefore AD generation within the economy is not a constant. And that's without considering additional sources of AD generation that have been added to the game over time.
Also, your contention that additional AD generation is exactly balanced by increased AD consumption is false. Alts do not require the same amount of self-generated AD as you can use AD and/or gear-rich toons to equip them. The more toons you have the more efficient this process becomes.
So the amount of AD generated in the economy rises with the number of players, the number of toons per player, the average level of toons, addition of dailies, events, etc. Consumption does not keep pace.
With Mod 4 coming in two weeks demand for everything is gonna skyrocket, the people who are rich now will be selling their perfect enchants for 20m a pop within weeks of the TOD release.
I'm making more AD now than when I started the game.
I also make more AD now than when I stared the game. The question if a player with, for example, 3 months experience now can make more than a player with 3 months experience then.
Of course at the very beginning of the game we could have less AD from leadership since nobody had lvl 20 yet, on the other hand protecting caravan was giving 200 AD...
And it is not like we only have "old" players now.
About that extra AD sources, they are all 1.for active playing, and an active player could reach the refinment ratio back then pretty easily.
About alts requiring less AD you are ofc right, but 1. they usually only do leadership and invoking, those new sources of AD are not for them 2.it's not like players couldn't make exactly as many alts before mod1 as they can now.
The whole argument we have is about whimpazoid saying the zax backlog is a result of increased AD generatin rate (I assume he means per player, but who knows, he also somewhere said the increased NW population contributed to it), which I am not buying. I belive it is the result of increased Zen demand (remember how zax started to climb up steadily only after introducing weekly sales?).
P.S. I don't know about wimpazoid, but I am in fact a woman.
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No, I've always been saying the rate of AD generation, but it seems too difficult to ask for a bit of comprehension please.
I can quote every post you made, where you declare a constant rate of AD influx and you maintain that it's from since beta because character limit remains the same. But where's the point? When suddenly you will just agree with me on the pretense of having common sense without comprehending neither what yourself or I'm writing.
You said clearly 'More players = more AD influx'. Now just learn that this is an increasing rate, and not a constant AD influx.
I did clearly, repeatedly. You just couldn't comprehend.
And we're back to this. Thought we were finally getting somewhere with the whole common sense rant.
More of this since beta thing and not telling the difference between the amount of AD entering the economy, and it's rate.
Quite the contrary, new players entering this economy have no choice but be forced to play catch up through Leadership, further increasing the rate of AD influx. However, there is no scenario where the new player wins out because Leadership AD is generated passively, and because of the daily cap of 24k AD (Finally! Your favorite topic!). Existing players will continue to out-generate AD than new players, while the ever increasing rate of AD influx continue to dilute this currency and pushing AH prices higher. And later players will be in worse shoes than this current group of players while facing increasing AH prices.
However, if you take Leadership out of the equation, there is now an even playing field. An active new player will likely be hitting his daily cap from playing, while an existing player will be the one having to make the effort to play actively to keep up with the new player. Why? Because finally, time is the only denominator to AD generation or rather time invested to actually generate AD aka play the game, do the dailies.
Not saying this can come to pass immediately due to the existing amount of AD in circulation, however with the alternative (the current situation), we are progressing in the opposite direction in terms of driving prices.
I'm not wasting my time with the rest, apparently mention bots, coal wards enchanted keys in the context posts no longer counts as naming them, it isn't my job to explain to you what you don't understand about them and their effects, nor what PWE is trying to do. And yes, artificial demand caused by underlying problems of the economy. And when everyone is forced into the labor camp to increase the rate of AD influx, no fixed price AD sink can put a dent to AD circulation.
As of 07:00 PST on 7/31, we will be implementing a new security system that will transition some accounts into a probationary period until we can verify the validity of their real money payments. During the time that these accounts are on probation, they will be unable to sell Zen on the Astral Diamond Exchange and all Zen Market purchases will be bound to their account. Once the probationary period has ended, they will be able to resume normal Zen Market and Astral Diamond Exchange activity.
This system is being implemented to prevent players from transacting with malicious users, who participate in account compromising or fraudulent activities. Player account safety is a top priority and we will be optimizing this system to make it as nonintrusive as possible.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
- Perfect World & Cryptic Studios
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/devtracker.php?page=1
That sounds nice
Even if we'd have to agree to disagree in the end, I'd like to say I really enjoy arguing with you. Probaly even too much
It didn't work in the real life, why would it work here?
Stuff in AH is priced as it is because people are willing to pay that much (i.e. it is not overpriced).And it is a symptom not the cause.
That would be good indeed. If only Cryptic had any idea of pricing their stuff. Teleportation scroll - 4k AD, hahahah. And did you see the AD gear they sell (or rather, they try to sell) on the seven suns coster marked?
Why, there is a plenty of stuff you could buy with zen (personally I find enchanted keys a neverending source of fun). And if you really need AD, you can just sell some AD items on AH (again, lockboxes. They seem to be more profitable now than ever).
Riight... how about removing all trade from the game? (zax could stay, but then again, if you you remove AH, what would anybody need AD for?)
Seriously, why people think making things BoP will reduce backlog?
I could not agree more.
The recent module and addition of zen based crafting items was a really bad move if cryptic actually want some kind of stable ecomony. If they continue down the path then they will start to push more people towards putting money into the hands of the spammers as eventually it will seem that it's the only way to keep up by buying items or ad for real money that could be getting filtered into the game.
The wondrous bazaar and companion upgrading could have been a viable AD sink but the useful stuff is expensive for what they are and stuff like the gear is woefully bad so noone would consider using them even as filler gear for minions.
However it's not just PWE/cryptics greed that has caused the situation it's also down to the playerbase and the willingness of people to pay stupid sums. If it was possible to organise a serverwide strike where we refuse to buy or sell on AH, zen shop or exchange might get a message to the numpties incharge of the money but I doubt it.
You ask why people think bop will reduce the backlog? I have 10M in zen request without needing anything. Here you are.
I don't get it. Your 10M in zen proves what exactly?
Funnily, you've stop using your favorite catchphrase in every other post 'constant AD influx' immediately.
Which I seriously don't care, never in any of my post has your limit of AD generation per player been important. It's an argument you brought up and are trying to have by yourself, and has never been my point.
You continue to bring up theoretical examples as arguments, emphasizing the (what I call theoretical) AD generation per player being the same, and then give an example where the income doesn't scale proportionately to each person, which is what I've been telling you with Leadership. And now you have to show evidence the rate of consumption is equal to the rate of generation for any of what you are saying to be true (it is relevant to ZAX), because on either side, AD will either be draining (not currently) or entering the economy (despite your example cleverly being a draining one). A bit difficult for you when players are holding onto AD or Zen, oh wait, not consumed. At least my explanations (repeatedly) are proven by their definition itself, one only needs to comprehend.
Oh snap, that's your next point isn't it? Zen being in demand, except you are assuming Zen means consumption, where Zen cannot keep up with demand to reduce AD entering the economy. However, what we are facing is artificial Zen demand, where Zen is held which means low consumption, which means the AD entering the economy is still there, and more then backlog or AH trades suggest, until those Zen are consumed in the Zen store. Also prove to me your claim that 'all generated AD are flushed out'. No doubt prices lower temporarily to turn a quick profit (and it's simply that, and the only thing that can be proven). The ones trying to turn a quick profit won't be the ones having enough quantities of AD to sit out the event, rather the ones with less will be trying to turn a quick profit, thus they are the ones lowering prices. And you also cannot claim and account for unseen AD that's being held, otherwise prices wouldn't recover so quickly and in the current state, exceed those prior to the temporary AD sinks (easily a gauge for their effectiveness), unless you are suggesting AD gets wiped out and vast amounts enter the very next day, that's a scary rate of AD generation. And I have never opposed AD sinks, go ahead and look, I've said they can be overcome (not to mention ignored since they are totally optional), easily (and shown through personal example).
You obviously don't have a grasp on long term measures, not the binding of keys, coal wards, and removing of bots, and definitely not what I've suggested. With Leadership, you are given the allowance to pursue and push prices higher.
Without it, anyone capable of buying from the current prices can freely choose to buy or not buy. If they do, AD transfer takes place and they are out AD. They can no longer recover from that purchase near instantly or quickly enough. Anyone without adequate AD is in the same situation with the above group who chooses not to buy, until they obtain enough AD to buy becoming the former group. It no longer starts to matter if a small group gather more AD from the AH trades. AD generation becomes competitive, in the long term when AD in the possession of the majority dries up, prices will fall, AD is back in demand and Zen will enter the market, restoring prices determined by player demand, not players stepping up to meet supplier asking price (which makes it extremely difficult for new players to enter). Without Leadership, the high priced items ARE the dynamically priced AD sinks, and better than any fixed price AD sink PWE can implement. That is the long term goal in peaking the market. There will always be unhappy players leaving over a multitude of reasons, at least staying players and new ones won't have to deal with this loopy economy.
Call me hopelessly optimistic but I still hope we can get somewhere. To avoid walls of text let's address 1 thing at time, shall we?
This posts topic will be: the average AD generation per player today and 1 year ago.
I say 1 player (on average, it is obvious that some make more, some less depending on preferred playstyle, free time to play etc.) could make just as much AD then as today. True today we have salvaging and more dailies, but all in all we have 24k/day limit. Today we can choose how to reach it, but that's all.
So, do you agree? If not, tell why.
Then, no. I have no problems comprehending, but you seem to have issues expressing. Again I refer to your post word for word. Makes no difference though, since by previous examples, I will be accused of twisting your words into something you never said, when it's literally your words unchanged.
This is too tiring for what you are always pulling, so not going to bother with you.
You sir are absolutely right here.
...But don't spoil my fun
Ok, so what was your point with those red markings? Where did I say something that is not true?
Once AD sinks kicked in then the rate would go down to previous levels.
AD is undervalued because of too much AD making zen worth more than 500AD per.
Saying that if the AD was gone would not get rid of the backlog while stating that people aren't selling zen due to AD not being worth it are in complete opposition to each other. This is backed up by facts and history in this very game.
Less AD in game = Lower AH prices = More bang for your Zen even at lower exchange rates(as even f2p players can afford some items it will drive up demand and prices)
No cap in ZAX = 1000 AD per Zen = Higher AH prices = Only pay to play players can actually afford inflated AH pricing as the 24k a day across however many accts you play will never be able to keep up with the power of 10$ to purchase 1 million AD.
but...
AD sinks won't work due to the fact that the people who make AD using the AH will not spend AD on any sink in the game(besides 10% AH fee which is never enough to hurt their profit margin) as they are in the business of making AD to sell for real cash. In fact AD sinks only effect actual players and have little effect on Gold spammers.
Also , as long as there are zen shop items that are BoE that you can't get in game as BoE you will have people continue to sell them for over zen market value for AD.
Patient players and bots can buy these items and then sell for more AD, then get zen from ZAX with the profit and buy even more next time. In this instance the backlog is actually helping to curtail botters profits. Though as I said patience in Zax makes it possible to make unlimited cycle of AD selling BoE items to F2Players and reinvesting into the ZAX.
Conclusion: Get rid of the stupid BoP wards from Tarmalune and invocation and stop making everything BoP.
Put a coal ward out that is available through AD purchase at 500k AD each and make those BoP.
Watch coal wards prices drop as people stop overpaying for wards on AH.
Watch AH prices fall as the endless loop of 'Buy zen, get coal ward, sell coal ward for profit, buy more zen, get more coal wards...etc' stops making these guys endless profit.
Sort of. Sinks if done right can provide a reason to want AD. It's not the overabundance of AD causing the problem, but rather the lack of need for AD.
Since as you pointed out, everything useful has become BoP, you only need Zen. Need a Ward? Buy it for Zen. With the backlog like it is, no one has incentive to convert Zen to AD.
Until you give an incentive to use/need AD, the overabundance or even shortage of AD will have very little impact on the Zax.
Clearly, you must mean 1 character, 24k/day.
Let's say that's what you meant, then yes.
However you are talking about Ad generation per player, then it's still no, unless
1. Time is not a factor
2. Generates at the theoretical maximum.
(Your case scenario already ended with point 1)
(PS: Don't misrepresent me, 1 character is still 24k/day)
By your definition
Even in the extreme case in the scenario you claim, let's say every one of these players a year ago pays for the maximum amount of character slots and starts to do leadership.
1. The need to level each character to unlock professions.
2. They have to start from 0 Leadership.
3. They have to unlock total of 9 professions slots.
We can average the players out and the above is still true. However, we know the extreme case isn't realistic, nor the population stagnant. But we maintain your scenario that players tend to maximize AD generation, then the average generation per player increases over time, unless the game is losing population (more leavers than joiners), then there's the possibility of the average AD generation decreasing.
However there's no real world scenario where this (quoted below) happens (due to your other scenario above):
The 'could' is very hypothetical of having a maximum limit (not the character limit, but the limit of maximum number of characters generating) for each player that is being reached. But even as we remove the fluctuating population, a single player still has to slowly begin to start generating AD increasing through the steps above, and for each character added to his account. The exception is if there is no time involved so we can have your hypothetical scenario, in which case as I've mentioned, the scenario ends as there's no point comparing to a year later.
So back to your topic:
No, it cannot be the same.
EDIT: (I started the discussion on the devaluation of AD, seems I'm constantly goaded into your need to prove average AD generation per player being the same or a constant AD influx for the past 9 pages. I'm done.)
It's not that I don't want to discuss other things, it's just we need to take it step by step.
I do not claim I know what the average AD income (per player, per char...) is, I say it is not more now than it was then. Because why would it be? Motivation? Same as then. Free time you can spend playing - same (average ofc
And remember leadership (which, btw, was giving more AD then) is not the only way to make AD, we also have Rhix' dailies. Then there was that Tymora event (don't remember when exactly) giving huge amounts of RAD, and earlier caturday. And probably some other stuff I don't remember.
So what did chang since then?
Empty the ZAX. Cancel all current listings.
A reboot done simultaneously with the suspension of accounts will give us a reprieve, at least.
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And how is that suppose to help? People would still have the same amount of AD and still be wanting zen. As soon as probation is over, you have the same backlog, only players would be more in "pitchforks and torches" mood.
Repeating a sentiment over and over again without evidence over the past 9 pages doesn't make it true.
Pitfall: You use a character's limit interchangeably with a player's limit.
Within your own predefined scenario, other constants and variables have little significance. Rhix's dailies is a constant, it's canceled out. An event is a variable with too short a duration and have negligible impact in the scheme of things, your 1 year long duration. And you want to add exploited AD into your calculations? It's an anomaly and is only a factor in a predefined 1 year period, not an average 1 year period, as prescribed in your scenario.
And I've explained to you, time is only an active common denominator when players cannot generate AD passively. So the most significant variable within your own scenario of players maximizing AD generation is Leadership.
I have provided the factors, math and played along to your little scenarios. Nothing I've said so far is false. Selectively ignore completely in your responses, but never disproved.
I have no idea what you are trying to do pertaining to your own topic of 'the average AD generation per player today and 1 year ago.' when you fail yet to provide an argument (with facts and evidence) to substantiate your claim.
But here's a fun suggestion for you and your obsessive fixation to need to be right about this one particular topic, post a poll "Average AD generation today and 1 year ago". Seek the affirmation you want and have a blast with it. It's definitely more fun than this.
(I'm genuinely laughing now, because what else can I do? It's too depressing to carry on this senseless debate, so have fun! Peace.)
I will just use myself and my nephew as we both play all the time started more or less a year ago (I played a month or two before he started and I'm about 390-400 days played now for some background info).
To start with I did spend a fair amount of money getting purple assets and started leveling up professions slowly over 2-3 characters.
First 1-5 months slowly was putting AD into getting more leadership assets, more characters and getting those characters to level 20 leadership and opening as many of the 9 slots per character as possible.
With in 6 months I had 14 characters probably making 150k a day in AD. Continued buying Adventurers and heroes as well as working on getting 8-9 slots on each character unlocked for maximizing AD
Since about 7 months to present I usually do about 300k AD a day I have at least 8 slots open for every character most have the full 9 and every character has at least 3 hero some as many as 12 with the rest all adventurers so it's pretty easy to max the 24k a day I usually build a back log of AD over time so I can take a week vacation and use the back log every now and again
My nephew is more or less on the same path and is only a little behind me as he's doing exactly the same thing I have done. I went from around a million AD a month in the early days to over 10 million AD a month now (I also make purple gemmed gear to sell for every profession to help pump up that AD gain so it's not all leadership but certainly Leadership is a large part of the my monthly generation). I log in 2 or 3 times a day for 15 to 20 minutes each time now with 17 characters (3 more coming up so that will lead to another 72k a day down the road soon and so it goes).
So yes I'd agree that over time most people like myself are making more AD the longer we play.
Cheers
Calvin
How can players make more AD now than then again? I accept the possibilty you answered this question somewhere and I simply couldn't see it behind those walls of text, in which case I ask you to repeat it, with one short sentence if possible and without telling what I may said. I know what I said, I just want an answer to that one question.
A couple of posts up is another example.
AD generation per player is not a constant. Therefore AD generation within the economy is not a constant. And that's without considering additional sources of AD generation that have been added to the game over time.
Also, your contention that additional AD generation is exactly balanced by increased AD consumption is false. Alts do not require the same amount of self-generated AD as you can use AD and/or gear-rich toons to equip them. The more toons you have the more efficient this process becomes.
So the amount of AD generated in the economy rises with the number of players, the number of toons per player, the average level of toons, addition of dailies, events, etc. Consumption does not keep pace.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
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Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
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Wait until you see mod4 Dragon Eggs new prize
I also make more AD now than when I stared the game. The question if a player with, for example, 3 months experience now can make more than a player with 3 months experience then.
Of course at the very beginning of the game we could have less AD from leadership since nobody had lvl 20 yet, on the other hand protecting caravan was giving 200 AD...
And it is not like we only have "old" players now.
About that extra AD sources, they are all 1.for active playing, and an active player could reach the refinment ratio back then pretty easily.
About alts requiring less AD you are ofc right, but 1. they usually only do leadership and invoking, those new sources of AD are not for them 2.it's not like players couldn't make exactly as many alts before mod1 as they can now.
The whole argument we have is about whimpazoid saying the zax backlog is a result of increased AD generatin rate (I assume he means per player, but who knows, he also somewhere said the increased NW population contributed to it), which I am not buying. I belive it is the result of increased Zen demand (remember how zax started to climb up steadily only after introducing weekly sales?).
P.S. I don't know about wimpazoid, but I am in fact a woman.