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The current PvP system
tehdubstep
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
i am sure many of you know if not all, the current pvp system is a point based system, but there is now a massive flaw in this system and has being for a long time, and that is "players giving up" when ur in a match and the score is 700-100 against you, you can't help but feel discouraged, the most often tactic is someone backcaps(capping enemy's point) and if ur team is strong enough and clear 2 then is preety much all over, this situation happens 8 out 10 times, this is all due to the point system, people always strives for points and is becoming really really tedious, i mean in gg everyone runs past each other just to cap points, in pvp matches i afk 6/10 times due to my team dominating the other team by POINTS, not kills, not rotations, not play styles, just because we happen to have a tr who knows how to stealth and capping their point for the duration of the match, as long as you see your team losing by such a huge margin theres no point fighting anymore, and this can stir up some drama in party chat with people using racist/abusive language towards people who doesnt completely hold a grasp to the pvp environment yet.
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To make matters worse, the losing team knows the more they run out and die, the lower their ELO score will be. Matches, therefore, are often quickly decided. I've yet to see a "comeback" match since the implementation of ELO. If there's a strong chance your team will lose, it's in your own best interest to sit the match out, unless you want to drop 20+ pages.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
If you win against someone lower in ranks than you, you go up in ranks a little bit.
If you win against someone same in ranks as you, you go up a lil bit higher in ranks than as of against someone lower.
If you win against someone higher in ranks than you, you go up a lot in ranks.
Yep. I personally, don't want to run out and die 1v5 so someone lower rank than me can get the kill and lower my ELO score.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
It averages out the elo of both teams to, lets say 20. <-- example
example --> I have an elo of 35, but because my elo is higher then the average, i get someone with an elo of 5 to balance it out to 20. Giving me a bad teammate for the sake of an averaged out team.
On the opposite team, every one of them has an elo of 20. All of them are good players, but none of them are so extrodinary that they need a low elo player to even out the average, thus giving them an "op" team.
What our best bet as players would be, is to find out exactly what the "average elo" of a team should be. From a command you could use a few weeks ago, we were able to find out our elo levels, which is based on your leaderboard rank. Thus making it so the higher your rank on leaderboard the higher your elo. Near the first rank I saw that the players were in the 40s, and finding my rank I was in the 30s. Based on that, It's safe to assume the average elo of a team is below 30, because of how bad my solo q teammates are. I'd like to say the average elo would be within 20-10 elo. Having an elo in this range usually gets you a fairly balanced team, because if your already at the average elo (20) then you won't need to be paired up with someone with much less or much more elo.
Complete speculation based on me thinking about it for 5 minutes. (Don't take my words to the grave)
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
Voice chat is auto enabled, as is party chat. Pug matches are about stepping up and being a leader to help the team. In most circumstances if someone is winning a lot queueing solo that is why more often than they just blew up the other team killwise. They are going for objectives and they are telling teammates where to go also.
This is one of the resons I do not like this 'matchmaking', because you get a 50-50 chance of a win in the long run, regardless of your skill. And regardless what you do, you end up often with players which dont understand teamplay at all.
This system leads also to situations in which I face the same opponents on my fresh new level 60 TR than I did on my Invincible Overlord HR. I really dont understand why we have such a system, it is not optimal to say the least. When I make a new level 60 TR I want to play mainly vs. other newbies and not against the same strong opponents in full pvp gear.
What I want to see is a matchmaking in which gear is taken out of the equation. This means that I want to face players with around the same gear margin and therefore get a ranking in which mainly skill (& your class, but this is a different story) plays a role.
The leaderboard rankings should take into consideration the average gearscore you had during combat in domination. I.e. the current score should be divided by the gearscore to reflect a players skill better. Gear makes the biggest issue. It is like a boxing match in which combatants of various weight classes have to fight against each other. The gear imbalance is only very roughly compensated by this system, often low gearscore players fill up the missing spots.
I am even willing to wait longer in a PvP queue, but honestly it would be better to simply see all queues and class participants including their average GS they had during combat in previous matches - and then join manually, as someone else has already suggested. By doing this people can set up their own matches and check the participants before confirmation. However in this case one has to find a solution to prevent wintrading.
Finally I repeat the old wish to have different modes of PvP and the option of player-generated foundry pvp maps.
EDIT:
And please... GG is a joke since several months now. GG badly needs a balancing mechanism.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
And they all get killed as well.
What is the point of taking 3 if we immediately lose 1 and 2? Where do these people come from?
Or, if they do not all get killed, they rush back almost dead, then rage about <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> healing. That is when I wish Party Leader could kick them.
Or, they rush back almost dead, I whip out my Divinely Channeled Grim Symbol of the Faithful with a Rank 8 Terror and a Rank 8 Radiant in it to show I will heal them when they are in range, but they run up the stairs to try and find a potion! And they die on the way from getting hit by a DoT when they ran away from their own Priestess! And now I am on my own as my Party has all run away, and I see the wounded enemy coming for ME. WithOUT a DC of their own, so we COULD have killed them all if my team had rallied to me instead of running off looking for potions.
Then, the Guardians, (who cannot run, by the way!) start chasing dodging enemies off-node by limping after them like absolute imbeciles, leaving us undefended, get ambushed on waste ground and then killed. I've held nodes with a CW or an HR just fine. It is usually the undergeared GWFs and GFs who are a liability. But they would be less of a liability if they paid attention during the match.
"RALLY TO ME!" is not just role-playing fun. And yes, I DO try to have role-playing fun, even in PvP.
Neither is "DO NOT GIVE CHASE!" and "DO NOT BREAK THE SHIELD WALL!" I even told them all to look up "HASTINGS, 1066", to find out what happens when an army loses defensive cohesion and pursues fleeing enemies, who then all turn round and hammer their pursuers to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and back as they now have them exactly where they want them.
Sometimes, they finally get the idea and we win. One time, by 3 points after being 200 behind. Other times, of course, we are hopelessly overwhelmed by a stronger, better team.
But it is always upsetting to see us doing well in combat but losing the match because my team seems to have completely missed the entire point of holding nodes and have zero concept of combat tactics and party strategy.
And don't get me started on people running around in circles with 10% of max hp when we just won a node, while two feet away there is an Invigorated Healing Astral Shield INSIDE a Moon Touched Hallowed Ground, with a Defender's Banner in the middle of the Astral Shield!
But no, they dance in circles and gain no hp while all my AoE defences, buffs and heals tick away to nothing. Then they say "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> DC" when a Ranger snipes them with an arrow from above.
Last time, I got to our Home Node to help our TR who was almost dead, hit him with a Divinely Channeled, Prestigiously Exalted Exaltation, which heals, buffs, regenerates AND gives him 6 seconds damage IMMUNITY AND buffs my own Healing when I am Exalted, whacked him and the enemy GWF with an Exalted/Inviogorated Healing Sunburst to damage the GWF and Heal our TR, then I had enough Divinity to lay down an Exalted/Invigorated Healing blue Astral Shield. Then a Flame Strike to help kill the GWF and Blessings of Battle to buff me and the TR and multiple Sacred Flames to damage, rebuild Divinity and shower the TR and me with temporary hp until my Cool Downs come off. And it takes only about 13.5 seconds for my Astral Shield to come off Cool Down.
So we killed the GWF and regained the node... and the TR ran away wounded as soon as the node turned blue! I stood in front of him and raised my Symbol, and he ran around me! I dodged to catch him up and stood in his face, jumping up and down, waiting for Cool Down so I could Exalt and Sunburst him. And he dodged me and ran away! I chased and managed to cast a blue Exaltation, but I missed him and I saw him killed as he jumped down to the level where Mid point is. Then I got stunned from behind and Ice Knifed by their CW and in a few moments I was dead. I wish I'd let our TR die in the first place.
And when I came off the camp fire, the enemy CW had taken our node. We could have killed him if our TR had not run away.
It is so frustrating, I am thinking of giving up PvP altogether. But when you have a good team against a good team and it is a close match, it can be a thing of beauty.
I guess after all the nerfs, people just think "DC? Cannot damage, cannot heal." So they die chasing potions instead of letting me heal them.
~
Thats why I dont like these domination modes and hope for alternative PvP modes. For some reason I am often grouped with players who dont play as team, like letting me alone with for example a GWF and/or a TR (while I play as CW). These players should be at the very bottom of the overal rankings. Always a pleasure to see mounted teammates passing me while I fight for my life on my own.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Sorry to tell you but whenever a player is saying this, it's the sure sign of a complete beginner. Backcapping is essential. I'm not gonna bother to explain to you why you are wrong in detail, as you will most surely try to prove me wrong and get angry with me. If you are really interested to understand DC role in domination and what exactly it is that you should do, open a new topic. "Hold home and mid" tactic is extremely bad and will only get you wins against bad pugs.
Agreed. You can search for the thread where someone else said that backcapping wasn't important, there was a ton of good info in that.
You are completely incorrect in my experience, although I am always open to learning more.
Holding 1 and 2 also means stopping them backcapping 1, or re-taking it as soon as they try. Otherwise, you are not holding it at all. The only way to win is for more points to be blue for longer than they are red.
It does not mean some idiot constantly whinging that he has died 15 times trying to take 3 over and over and over and over again with no support, calling the non-dying-for-nothing-at-all players "NUUBS" and claiming that's why his kill rate is bottom of the table ("WAAAHHHH!!! WAAAHHH!!") The fact that we are winning by 150 points seems to elude him.
If the utter buffoon had been fighting WITH his party, he would not have died for nothing at all. And if the entire team was not lured off-point by retreating enemies, they would not have been ambushed and killed. Or, if they had not charged Enemy Home when they were respawning at their camp fire, we would never have lost 1 and 2 in the first place when they came round the back and snuck up our jacksie.
Funnily enough, not only are these whining bozos usually bottom of the table, but they usually have the lowest GS as well. Must have been reading outdated forum threads
Recently, we have come back from a massive deficit purely because my team finally started fighting like a cohesive unit. I was actually able to BE a Leader by placing AoE where I wanted them to fight, rather than chasing around the map and placing them where THEY wanted to fight - on wasteland.
I have seen it throughout history. Forgive me if I pay more attention to Alexander, Caesar and Rommel than I do to proneification.
Sure, sneak round an steal their Home Base in Perma-Stealth if you can. Many times, I have galloped round to Enemy Home Node knowing I was going to die, just to stop them scoring from it for a while. Sometimes, we won the match by a handful of points because of it.
But running in all directions at once like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> lemmings on PCP is NOT displaying the finer tactics of winning a team match. I do not care about the prize for topping the board, and I have won it many times with my Battle Cleric below level 60. One time, 23 kills. A DC! But most of the time, it is not even a piece of DC gear. I DO care about my Glory and my Seals and getting a Win within the 4 Dailies, not having to do it a dozen times because I am teaming with zombies.
I have watched videos of 18k Guild teams playing each other, and it was a tedious, incessant 45 minutes or more of single combat on all nodes at once, with the DC riding back and forth to do some emergency healing. Just because they play like that does not make it the best method for all. I prefer to finish 4 games within the Arena hour, if I can, get at least one win and then go off to do content to earn some enchants and runes.
In fact, the most effective method against my team is when 2 GWF and a CW sandwich me at the same time. But that is one of the many times they had 2 GWF and a GF and we had two TR and two DC. Not a fair match.
~
And what happens, if they backcapp ur home node?
-Then u send someone to clear it, but it takes time, and the node is contested for that time, soo u won't generate points from that node, neither the other team
-On mid node the rest of the team is fighting, so it generates no points for nobody.
-Their node is uncontested, because u only cap home and mid node and try to keep these, so their node is generating points for them.
that means, you lose the game.
Even if u clear home node, then its:
Their node is generating points for them
Mid node generates nothing since people fighting on it
Your node generates point for you.
In that short ammount of time both teams generates same ammount of points,
but they just send the same guy again to ur home node, and u have the described situation again.
Even if ur team cleans mid, u have this situation:
Their node is generating points for them.
Mid is generating points for you.
Your node is contested, so no points for any team.
In that short ammount of time both teams generates same ammount of points(until their team spawns and then they contest mid again, and u have that situation, where u're losing).
I've won some games without having to kill anyone(not because i don't try, its because my net sometimes sucks and makes me lagg like....), by just knowing where u have to go and stand, u can win the game, but thats against puggs, if u face someone with a little bit of idea about pvp, then things are completely diferent.
I told you you will get angry with me just because I say things as they are.
I have a question for you.
If you think you have devised a better method of fighting than the PvP guilds...
... Can you beat them and prove your strategy is better?
Let me know if you want to try.
All the best.
By the way. PvP is about winning. You should play to win, not to squeeze more games in an hour or do it as a side-activity to your PvE farm. People with your mindset destroy pug games for us PvPers.
What part of 'hold' is eluding you, genius?
If you take and *hold* Home and Mid, you will never loose a match. Matches are decided based upon who's holding points longer, not on most kills, most assists, most blah de freakin' blah. Matches are won based on the Domination of points, not the domination of other players.
A loosing team can *all* be on top of the scoreboard for kills / assists / etc. And they still loose, if the other team held Home and Mid the entire time.
L2P.
The reasoning behind the backcapping strategy is when you cannot intercept the opposing team before the reach and contest these nodes, or when your team cannot push them off node successfully - thus leading to nodes that you might technically hold, but don't generate any score.
In this case(which is the case in any competitive matchup) you must send someone to also stall point generation on their node.
Thus all three nodes are currently contested and the game now become a case of rotating players to their best matchup and clearing the opposition from a node. Once the opposition has been cleared from a node it then generates points and you have a numerical advantage, which if they have a long travel time(say the backcapper on riven scar was cleared) you can use to also pressure them on other nodes.
TL;DR
Backcapping is used if the teams are equal and thus you cannot hold two (cleared) nodes constantly.
She is right, people.
The "strategy" in holding mid and home and not contesting enemy home is a very very bad aproach.
It was explained in this thread already is can be figured out by common sense.
And yes, pvp guilds actually develop complex strategies and how to rotate and stuff because on an equal playing field, thats the thigs that win u matches! There was an expirent of an well known pvp guild using only green items and rank1 enchantments in a pvp match andtuey beat the other (pug) team by FAR!
But not beeing BiS will always be a good excuse not to use brains, I see.
Listen to pronefication, she knows what shes talking about.
Because if theres a perma TR or a tanky HR on ur home node, u will NOT CLEAR him fast enough to score points against an unconested enemy home. Period.
Seriously this 'matchmaking' is NOT a matchmaking at all.
I want to play VS. other players with similar gear.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Please read my post twice, or atleast read it...
Backcapping is essential. They give you 5 players for a reason... 3 at mid 1 at home and 1 at enemy base. If you guys are great fighters and either keep your DC on Mid or if they're very tanky on enemy's base it's a definite win unless the enemy is doing the same and you guys aren't so great of a team. Watch a premade video preferably Nightxwingz and you'll see how great backcapping is.
Your backcapper never even has to win the node or kill anyone...they just have to keep the points from ticking.
Against bad pugs who I know won't back cap, I will just sit mid and kill over and over and over and over, building up all my stacks so I can kill even faster.
In premades, no one ever says, "lets not backcap" not once, in over a year of playing in top pvp guilds.
What I object to is the 7 to 9k GS PuGs who think they can do the same because they read it on a forum. They cannot.
We have Home and Mid and we are 100 points ahead, then they all charge off, STILL WOUNDED, to Enemy Home and get killed; over and over and over again, eventually snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory.
In one match this week, we had a 6k GWF with not a single piece of blue or purple and not a single enchant. And he was not a Bot as he replied "I backcap" when I mentioned that maybe he should get to the AH sometime.
I only ever PuG as I only really do the Arena events, except when I get a PM from a friend who asks if I fancy a PvP session.
But when I say "Hello" to everyone, via Party Chat, I also check their gear etc and see who I should be standing behind to buff and heal. It is these teams with a GS 3 to 5k lower than mine where I tell them to Hold Home and Mid, TR try and Steal Enemy Node if they can, as I can see that the other team have 2 GWF and a GF, while we have 2 TR and 2 CW.
But sometimes it is even worse if we have a pair of GF, because they always seem to think they can sprint, so they try and chase the enemy down instead of defending the team.
Then I see us holding the nodes, but they decide to limp off and pursue a feinting enemy pretending to retreat just to coax them off the node. Seriously, that situation is so similar to the collapse of the Anglo-Saxon Shield Wall at Hastings, it's uncanny. We are holding the Nodes, just as Harald held the hill. But a rumor goes round, started by William himself, that William is dead. The French pretend to flee, half the shield wall chases them down the hill, then William leads his cavalry in, rallies all the French infantry and BLAM! Change of government, royal family, culture and law over night that has lasted 1000 years. And I am Welsh, so I do not really give a toss about the English.
But I DO give a toss about my Glory and Seals. That battle plays out in microcosm most nights with a bad team.
And to see the same team fall for the same rumor that the enemy is routed, over and over and over again in the same battle is a little... dispiriting.
No PuG Team can hope to beat an 18k BIS Guild Team. You are simply outmatched, outclassed, out-geared, out-enchanted, out-powered, out-experienced and out-fought.
~
That is my entire point. They ALL go to enemy Base, and so we lose Home and Mid.
I was not talking about good teams I have played with. I thought that was obvious. I was talking about the bad ones and the odd occasion where we DID manage to win after I got them to change their stupid tactics.
Other times we win very easily, as we have two 16k GWFs against a really bad team.
That is the problem with the Match Making. It does not make Matches.
~