I think the biggest obstacle is trying to figure out how to balance damage with the current stealth mechanic.
There is a reason no other MMOs allow classes to attack from stealth without breaking it… its OP’d. Devs have tried balancing this by forcing us to waste encounters to maintain stealth and keeping the remaining DPS encounters weak.
There are many approaches to fix the class, so it’s pointless to speculate on the specific mechanics until we know what the devs have in mind, so I will keep this general.
The most obvious way to bring the class in balance (an probably the easiest), is to greatly buff single target damage overall, but at-wills should break or greatly shorten stealth time. You simply cannot balance a class for PvP that can shred your face, then vanish and continue to attack from stealth while regenning back most HP lost… wait on CDs then drop stealth and finish face melting if required. Stealth should be for a short lived surprise/high damage attacks or covert operations (contesting nodes[PvP] throwing inaccessible switches in dungeons to drop masses of mobs into a lava pit[PvE]).
I think the biggest obstacle is trying to figure out how to balance damage with the current stealth mechanic.
There is a reason no other MMOs allow classes to attack from stealth without breaking it… its OP’d. Devs have tried balancing this by forcing us to waste encounters to maintain stealth and keeping the remaining DPS encounters weak.
There are many approaches to fix the class, so it’s pointless to speculate on the specific mechanics until we know what the devs have in mind, so I will keep this general.
The most obvious way to bring the class in balance (an probably the easiest), is to greatly buff single target damage overall, but at-wills should break or greatly shorten stealth time. You simply cannot balance a class for PvP that can shred your face, then vanish and continue to attack from stealth while regenning back most HP lost… wait on CDs then drop stealth and finish face melting if required. Stealth should be for a short lived surprise/high damage attacks or covert operations (contesting nodes[PvP] throwing inaccessible switches in dungeons to drop masses of mobs into a lava pit[PvE]).
Stealth should only recharge while out of combat.
I still think Stealth should only recharge by going out of line of sight (or range) of enemy players, say 100' feet, and deplete by proximity to target. So you can stay hidden as long as you want if you're not causing a ruckus, but you reveal yourself when you attack. Stealth bonuses and single target damage need to be more potent. But Stealth doesn't imply PermaGhost. It's more in the context of ambush, not haunting enemies.
I still think Stealth should only recharge by going out of line of sight (or range) of enemy players, say 100' feet, and deplete by proximity to target. So you can stay hidden as long as you want if you're not causing a ruckus, but you reveal yourself when you attack. Stealth bonuses and single target damage need to be more potent. But Stealth doesn't imply PermaGhost. It's more in the context of ambush, not haunting enemies.
I completely agree with the PermaGhost assessment. I lilke the basic principal of your envisioned stealth, but its implementation would require a complete implosion of the class & tab slots... all the stealth code would have to be rewritten from the ground up instead of tweaked, so I doubt it is feasible from a workload standpoint. I also think the extreme distance would result in stealth almost never being available and most players being frustrated with a key mechanic that wasn't usable 99% of the time.
I think a mostly complete class overhaul is needed anyway so...
to me, a good way to have stealth is to have it being a toggle (on /off) have skills making you get out of stealth, no stealth refill skills, stealth is depleted when hit if you're stealthed, but when outside of it, the stealth meter is ALWAYS filling up, no matter if you're being hit or not. so you can use it in the middle of a battle, but can't maintain it if you want to use skills. Stealth to me should be used to either ambush or escape, but not to fight while stealthed all the time. Also single target damage needs to be buffed. and some CC wouldn't hurt at all. I also think poison/bleed is a vital part of rogues in MMOs (I'm no expert in DnD though I don't know if it applies) and should play a major part of the class mechanics too.
Poison in D&D has pretty much always been something you had to feat for and wildly inefficient to the point of not being used except in traps laid by NPC enemies. There was a 4E class that used it, but the mechanics were clunky and it wasn't the Rogue. So no, poison isn't really a Rogue thing.
I doubt they're going to rework the class as much as some people seem to be suggesting. Recall how much TR stuff relies on stealth the way it is now. At most, they'll bring back the idiotic idea of having at-wills drain stealth(You think that's a good idea? No, it isn't. When they did it before you couldn't get through a single DF in Stealth, and that was with stealth extended) and leave it at that. You think they'll actually buff our damage? Hah. We've gotten the biggest, most obscene nerfs this game has seen. Shocking Execution has been nerfed to the ground with a massive decrease in its damage TWICE. DF is working on its third nerf overall and second ninjanerf. You think they'll give us CC? Again, hah. More mobility? LOL nope.
I'd add to that DF bleed tick rates and stacking have been nerfed, along with Lashing Blade's damage, Impact shot's damage, Lurker's Assault's duration and damage boost effect (down 60%), Cloud of Steel's number of knives (down 33%), Deadly Momentum (in open beta added 75% crit severity...then reduced to 25%, now 15%), the way power stacks on a number of skills, and Underhanded Tactics has never worked right and never been fixed. In fact, only Gloaming Cut has received a buff during the last 16 months of playtime....a skill use by barely 1% of the TR's even after the buff. Our encounter powers are more powerful (do more damage) than any of our dailies!
I wouldn't mind if they completely reworked the class to drastically change stealth as others have hinted. They may as well address the issue since it isn't getting any less complicated and it is the main reason the class is so crippled now (it has become a catch 22). There are may be other ways to address it now since they have the ability to alternate how things work in PvP from PvE but that might be more complex than a simple total overhaul.
As it stands now and based on my 'guestimations' I figure we need somewhere from a 30% to 50% damage boost to be competitive with current live and equal geared striker classes in PvE. I would like to see Deft Strike be allowed to be slotted as both an at will or as an encounter (not at the same time but able to fit either as the situation calls for but I am not sure if this can be done but it seems like it should -- damage/recharge may need to be adjusted accordingly). We need to get at least one more dodge out of a full stamina charge. We have feats and capstones that seriously need looked at. I think Lashing Blade should become an AE along the lines of IBS. It would be good to get additional stats out of our ability scores as the other melee classes as was mentioned earlier. It seems most of our powers are single purpose, and I don't mind that but it would be good to get an ability like they give to the others (e.g. a GWF style encounter that heals you to full, kills your target, prones everyone in the targets group, stuns everyone on the targets friends list, and if you miss you get to do it again in 2 seconds instead of having to wait the entire 4 -- just kidding but you know what I mean the TR abilities are narrow in what they do).
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
I just did some tests.
Someone who has charisma 12 is getting nearly the same bonus from combat advantage as me
with charimsa at 18 plus the feat Underhanded Tactics that gives 20% bonus combat advantage benefit to my rogue.
Something is messed up here.
We both are getting about 200 extra damage from normal attacks in combat advantage on each other.
the GWF was hitting between 650 - 720 damage normally and 750 -990 in combat advantage
Me as a rogue doing normal hits for 880 - 999 and combat advantage (non stealth) going for 1080 - 1217
is getting nearly the same benefit. While I should have 8% extra combat advantage from charisma plus the 20% from underhanded tactics that boosts my benefit from combat advantage damage to a total of 28% and he only has 2% combat advantage from charisma
But we both have about 200 bonus damage to combat advantage. (and his general numbers were lower than mine, so he's actually seeming to get slightly more benefit than i am with my higher numbers and getting the same 200 bonus damage as him)
Something seems off with charisma for rogues and combat advantage damage as a whole and this also means this makes Underhanded tactics a completely non working feat.
( this test was done in preview server btw)
Also I tested a bit earlier that Wicked Reminder still doesnt stack even in open world pvp, and it only lowers enemy TOTAL damage resistance by 0.5%
GWF at wills do more damage as the target health decreases so I would not test with them. I think that is one reason they best the TR on single target boss kills is from that feature.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
GWF at wills do more damage as the target health decreases so I would not test with them. I think that is one reason they best the TR on single target boss kills is from that feature.
While this is true. it should make neglible difference, as I kept using potions anytime I got to half health, but gonna try this again with something else. And its only the sure strike at will that does that.
Edit:
Using a different ability. Reaping Strike also has the same increase from combat advantage. About a 200 damage increase. Virtually the same effect.
And to further validate it, using Reaping Strike at about 75% charged does about the same damage as me, just a bit more. Around 1137-1341 normally and 1313 - 1550 combat advantage damage.
Edit #2
Also I tested a bit earlier that Wicked Reminder still doesnt stack even in open world pvp, and it only lowers enemy TOTAL damage resistance by 0.5%
Someone who has charisma 12 is getting nearly the same bonus from combat advantage as me
with charimsa at 18 plus the feat Underhanded Tactics that gives 20% bonus combat advantage benefit to my rogue.
Something is messed up here.
We both are getting about 200 extra damage from normal attacks in combat advantage on each other.
the GWF was hitting between 650 - 720 damage normally and 750 -990 in combat advantage
Me as a rogue doing normal hits for 880 - 999 and combat advantage (non stealth) going for 1080 - 1217
is getting nearly the same benefit. While I should have 8% extra combat advantage from charisma plus the 20% from underhanded tactics that boosts my benefit from combat advantage damage to a total of 28% and he only has 2% combat advantage from charisma
But we both have about 200 bonus damage to combat advantage. (and his general numbers were lower than mine, so he's actually seeming to get slightly more benefit than i am with my higher numbers and getting the same 200 bonus damage as him)
Something seems off with charisma for rogues and combat advantage damage as a whole and this also means this makes Underhanded tactics a completely non working feat.
( this test was done in preview server btw)
Also I tested a bit earlier that Wicked Reminder still doesnt stack even in open world pvp, and it only lowers enemy TOTAL damage resistance by 0.5%
because charisma and underhanced tactics are bugged as i wrote pages ago
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
because charisma and underhanced tactics are bugged as i wrote pages ago
Yes. I'm just providing tested proof in addition. Wanted to know how they were bugged as I have a rogue thats quite based for combat advantage bonuses.
Yes. I'm just providing tested proof in addition. Wanted to know how they were bugged as I have a rogue thats quite based for combat advantage bonuses.
how is very simple: they just add 0% additional damage
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
Yeah I see that. Its backed up in my tests shown exactly that.
wow that sucks, I guess I'll change my Combat advantage feats then, no point in having them if the difference is so small...
But I was sure I had tested it with dummies and I got quite some difference with or without Combat advantage... I'll test it again today.
wow that sucks, I guess I'll change my Combat advantage feats then, no point in having them if the difference is so small...
But I was sure I had tested it with dummies and I got quite some difference with or without Combat advantage... I'll test it again today.
day 25/7/2014 after several balanced pvp i finally decided to never log in again for this summer.
enjoy the sun.
goodbye all
0
reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
wow that sucks, I guess I'll change my Combat advantage feats then, no point in having them if the difference is so small...
But I was sure I had tested it with dummies and I got quite some difference with or without Combat advantage... I'll test it again today.
Combat advantage gives bonus damage yes. But it only gives the base bonus damage that everyone else gets. It does not increase for us rogues from things thats supposed to increase it.
Correct. None of the "bonuses" to combat advantage from high CHR or underhanded tactics have any real affect, since they are multiplicative (based on the +15% CA extra damage) rather than additive. I've got another post on how it works in another thread. It has been broken for over a year, and hence will not be fixed. If/when you respec, avoid CHR unless you want it strictly for the deflect bonus.
Comments
There is a reason no other MMOs allow classes to attack from stealth without breaking it… its OP’d. Devs have tried balancing this by forcing us to waste encounters to maintain stealth and keeping the remaining DPS encounters weak.
There are many approaches to fix the class, so it’s pointless to speculate on the specific mechanics until we know what the devs have in mind, so I will keep this general.
The most obvious way to bring the class in balance (an probably the easiest), is to greatly buff single target damage overall, but at-wills should break or greatly shorten stealth time. You simply cannot balance a class for PvP that can shred your face, then vanish and continue to attack from stealth while regenning back most HP lost… wait on CDs then drop stealth and finish face melting if required. Stealth should be for a short lived surprise/high damage attacks or covert operations (contesting nodes[PvP] throwing inaccessible switches in dungeons to drop masses of mobs into a lava pit[PvE]).
Stealth should only recharge while out of combat.
I still think Stealth should only recharge by going out of line of sight (or range) of enemy players, say 100' feet, and deplete by proximity to target. So you can stay hidden as long as you want if you're not causing a ruckus, but you reveal yourself when you attack. Stealth bonuses and single target damage need to be more potent. But Stealth doesn't imply PermaGhost. It's more in the context of ambush, not haunting enemies.
I completely agree with the PermaGhost assessment. I lilke the basic principal of your envisioned stealth, but its implementation would require a complete implosion of the class & tab slots... all the stealth code would have to be rewritten from the ground up instead of tweaked, so I doubt it is feasible from a workload standpoint. I also think the extreme distance would result in stealth almost never being available and most players being frustrated with a key mechanic that wasn't usable 99% of the time.
to me, a good way to have stealth is to have it being a toggle (on /off) have skills making you get out of stealth, no stealth refill skills, stealth is depleted when hit if you're stealthed, but when outside of it, the stealth meter is ALWAYS filling up, no matter if you're being hit or not. so you can use it in the middle of a battle, but can't maintain it if you want to use skills. Stealth to me should be used to either ambush or escape, but not to fight while stealthed all the time. Also single target damage needs to be buffed. and some CC wouldn't hurt at all. I also think poison/bleed is a vital part of rogues in MMOs (I'm no expert in DnD though I don't know if it applies) and should play a major part of the class mechanics too.
I doubt they're going to rework the class as much as some people seem to be suggesting. Recall how much TR stuff relies on stealth the way it is now. At most, they'll bring back the idiotic idea of having at-wills drain stealth(You think that's a good idea? No, it isn't. When they did it before you couldn't get through a single DF in Stealth, and that was with stealth extended) and leave it at that. You think they'll actually buff our damage? Hah. We've gotten the biggest, most obscene nerfs this game has seen. Shocking Execution has been nerfed to the ground with a massive decrease in its damage TWICE. DF is working on its third nerf overall and second ninjanerf. You think they'll give us CC? Again, hah. More mobility? LOL nope.
As it stands now and based on my 'guestimations' I figure we need somewhere from a 30% to 50% damage boost to be competitive with current live and equal geared striker classes in PvE. I would like to see Deft Strike be allowed to be slotted as both an at will or as an encounter (not at the same time but able to fit either as the situation calls for but I am not sure if this can be done but it seems like it should -- damage/recharge may need to be adjusted accordingly). We need to get at least one more dodge out of a full stamina charge. We have feats and capstones that seriously need looked at. I think Lashing Blade should become an AE along the lines of IBS. It would be good to get additional stats out of our ability scores as the other melee classes as was mentioned earlier. It seems most of our powers are single purpose, and I don't mind that but it would be good to get an ability like they give to the others (e.g. a GWF style encounter that heals you to full, kills your target, prones everyone in the targets group, stuns everyone on the targets friends list, and if you miss you get to do it again in 2 seconds instead of having to wait the entire 4 -- just kidding but you know what I mean the TR abilities are narrow in what they do).
Someone who has charisma 12 is getting nearly the same bonus from combat advantage as me
with charimsa at 18 plus the feat Underhanded Tactics that gives 20% bonus combat advantage benefit to my rogue.
Something is messed up here.
We both are getting about 200 extra damage from normal attacks in combat advantage on each other.
the GWF was hitting between 650 - 720 damage normally and 750 -990 in combat advantage
Me as a rogue doing normal hits for 880 - 999 and combat advantage (non stealth) going for 1080 - 1217
is getting nearly the same benefit. While I should have 8% extra combat advantage from charisma plus the 20% from underhanded tactics that boosts my benefit from combat advantage damage to a total of 28% and he only has 2% combat advantage from charisma
But we both have about 200 bonus damage to combat advantage. (and his general numbers were lower than mine, so he's actually seeming to get slightly more benefit than i am with my higher numbers and getting the same 200 bonus damage as him)
Something seems off with charisma for rogues and combat advantage damage as a whole and this also means this makes Underhanded tactics a completely non working feat.
( this test was done in preview server btw)
Also I tested a bit earlier that Wicked Reminder still doesnt stack even in open world pvp, and it only lowers enemy TOTAL damage resistance by 0.5%
While this is true. it should make neglible difference, as I kept using potions anytime I got to half health, but gonna try this again with something else. And its only the sure strike at will that does that.
Edit:
Using a different ability. Reaping Strike also has the same increase from combat advantage. About a 200 damage increase. Virtually the same effect.
And to further validate it, using Reaping Strike at about 75% charged does about the same damage as me, just a bit more. Around 1137-1341 normally and 1313 - 1550 combat advantage damage.
Edit #2
Also I tested a bit earlier that Wicked Reminder still doesnt stack even in open world pvp, and it only lowers enemy TOTAL damage resistance by 0.5%
because charisma and underhanced tactics are bugged as i wrote pages ago
Yes. I'm just providing tested proof in addition. Wanted to know how they were bugged as I have a rogue thats quite based for combat advantage bonuses.
But I was sure I had tested it with dummies and I got quite some difference with or without Combat advantage... I'll test it again today.
day 25/7/2014 after several balanced pvp i finally decided to never log in again for this summer.
enjoy the sun.
goodbye all
Combat advantage gives bonus damage yes. But it only gives the base bonus damage that everyone else gets. It does not increase for us rogues from things thats supposed to increase it.
I dont know about other classes.