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Cleric in Module 4
ryulax9
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
Hey guys,
Sooo.. I've read there's gonna be a lot of nerf for both the CW and GWF class but I still have to read anything about the Clerics.
Are they gonna be buffed/nerfed ? Will they be more helpful/vital for PvP/PvE ?
Any information on the "updated" Clerics would be appreciated though
Sooo.. I've read there's gonna be a lot of nerf for both the CW and GWF class but I still have to read anything about the Clerics.
Are they gonna be buffed/nerfed ? Will they be more helpful/vital for PvP/PvE ?
Any information on the "updated" Clerics would be appreciated though
Post edited by ryulax9 on
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I'm okay with the current cleric mechanics, except I wish the pvp campaign was a little more reasonable for DCs.
Anyways.. dont be so sure of more desire on the cleric side of things, go review the GF forums, you will see massive buffs being granted to them for overall party performance, something the DC class was ahead of for along time.
New SW can also heal a party.. if kind of inefficiently.
The lack of performance on a DC, is squarely related to the worst feats in the game, all centralized around healing, which they have continually nerfed in the last couple of modules.
There needs to be a utility tree, a healing tree and a dps tree and rework junk feats like Domain Synergy, fix cleanse back to the way it was before and other useless utility functions like extending stuns for .2 seconds and stuff.
There also needs to be animation resets on things like Blessing of Battle, WAY to slow for such a small payoff of damage/buff, speed it up, but keep cooldown between the same, not asking for more damage per se, just dont get us killed becuase we are sitting there doing nothing.
Dailies need to be looked at and adjusted as well.
DC class needs some things, overall its "ok" I just do not have much desire to play them lately due to some of the slowness factor. I have played many healers and this one is one of the most boring ones Ive ever experienced in any mmo, I didnt feel that way until the combination of PVP tenacity and Mod 3 made them so. So I mostly blame game designed around the other classes that impacted the DC in a negative fashion. Time for a reboot IMO (reset things like astral shield to party wide buffs, not location!!!!!, do the same for DG buffing as well. Unlock the potential of the DC please) THERE is now two more ranged classes not getting full benefits from the cleric, orginal design was ok, with the limited subset of classes. Since the game has changed, they need to rethink that core mechanic. Buffs/debuffs need to be party wide, not aoe hotspots, or small area effect buffs.
All in all, all I can see Mod 4 will do for us clerics is what the other mods have been leaning towards, making DC the most useless class in the game. I've leveled up a HR and enjoying the game a lot more now, the DC class isn't what it was 6 months ago and has got to the point where it's not fun to play at all in PvE or PvP.
I think it's sad to say, but it may be the end for DCs.
I wouldnt say the end, but I think it might be time to shelf it for a bit, I had a blast with it for awhile before the tenacity change, i did run it through IWD and do a match once-twice a week.
They did say they would re-look at them and the TRs at the same time for the next mod, so maybe 5-6 months out we might get the rework they need , if nothing else to make them a little more fun.
The one thing about SW regardless of thier healing powers, is testing forums say it doesn't have huge amounts of control or survivablity at the moment. IF its ultra weak, not really replacing a DC honestly. Though they did give them some 4 second stun I heard, but thats it. I havent tested it.
Its single target, don't worry about it in PvE.
1) Clerics are in demand mostly because of both their buffs and healing. If you think all it takes to replace a DC is a class with healing then for someone who claims to main a DC you obviously have a very limited grasp of how your class works. Especially considering how buffs/mitigation trumps healing.
2) I've been playing the warlock since its release in preview and make no mistake, the warlock is a glass cannon. Ergo, its a DC-hugger.
Imagine what would happen if you removed the GWF's Unstoppable, replaced its armors with leather instead of mail (AC/defense drop), removed all those massive deflect/defense/HP&healing bonuses from feats/powers and removed its "jump" dodge encounter. Now remove all melee nukes and replace with ranged nukes. That is the warlock. HRs, at least, actually had a dodge, a stealth daily and various feats/powers that boosted their mitigation/deflect/healing/dodge/etc. The warlock has none of these.
If anything the influx of new/lowbie/bad warlocks all but guarantees a massive spike in the demand for DCs in mod4.
3) PvE-wise the mod3 DC is easily the most powerful incarnation of the DC class so far. The devs have essentially made Hallowed Ground and our other dailies spammable thanks to new mod3 gear. Semi-permanent party-wide +30% damage buff plus mitigation from just a single power? Yes please. There are also various other goodies for anyone else willing to look.
Essentially it's like mod1 SB all over again except this time we get better gear too.
4) We already have a damage/utility/healing tree. If your DC is boring you made him/her that way. I personally would have never made a DC if all I had to do was run around healing/supporting people. I will slot a more defensive power loadout for particular fights, but that's it.
5) Studying the warlock heroic feats should reveal that the devs are actively trying to get rid of useless/semi-useless feats. This is promising for future DC fixes. I too wish that those fixes would come sooner.
6) It seems that the DC/TR are, for this mod, being used as "control" variables for the GWF/CW/HR/GF rebalances the devs are working on. I don't think it takes a genius to figure this out - if all classes were being rebalanced all at once then how would that work? How would they know if GWFs are actually squishier in PvE if they're constantly increasing/decreasing the DC's healing/mitigation? How would they know if the warlock is actually doing "good" DPS if all other strikers are being constantly rebalanced at the same time?
Also, as much as I support the devs, given their track record I doubt the end result of what would happen if they decided to rebalance all classes at the same time would make anyone happy.
Anyway the devs have already mentioned that they haven't forgotten about us and TRs.
7) Feat changes take time, but power changes not so much. PoD's casting time was ninja-buffed recently. Ninja fixes happen all the time, at one point Chains even had a target cap of 8 and Divine Forgemaster's was suddenly applying Linked Spirit near the end of mod2. If a good enough case was made for such a change and devs decide to make Blessing of Battle's casting animation faster they'd probably just ninja-fix that in.
DC might end up being good without needing to change more than a tooltip.
The rest still up-and-coming!
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I just don't see how anything in the upcoming mod is gonna help us, especially the PvP DCs.
My personal opinion from hearing a lot of people talk of the preview shard, I'm unable to patch it due to having a crummy internet connection.
Personally, I feel we've been dying in the last few mods and the PvP patch. All these people QQing about the few of us that managed to build ourselves in a way and play in a way that meant we could tank 2 or 3 people at a time. So the nerf hammer got to us time and time again. And now others are being buffed and we're getting nothing again. I suppose it's better then another nerf, but it's still gonna be HAMSTER with the way CW is changing and HR changes.
Believe me I know, if you look at my siggy, I'm Demonically Angelic. Like I say.. If I go 0-20 in a pre vs pre but my teams point holders go 20-0 then I've done my job right, but I just don't like the changes that are being made and that have been made. Feels like us DCs are the lowest class in the devs eyes and we keep getting nerf after nerf, while everyone else gets buff after buff, and to that extent, it feels like the Devs don't want DCs in the game actually playing any more.
From my own testing I do believe that Temptation warlocks will be unique in that they will not be as reliant on DCs/defenders as other warlock types, since they can use their allies as human meat shields instead.
And for the record, only the HR seems to be the "intentionally" OP class, and that's likely because it's a relatively newer class - not enough nerfs yet. Judging from the paragon feat path change, it's not even fully "done" yet.
What Im complaining about is how effing boring its become. There was a day I could stand in my shield in pvp and fight a HR, now I cant, as other have said, you want to win as a DC in a dom match, then die, go to two and die alot, tell your team that you are dieing for them to hold 1 and 3 and they effing cant while you die 20 times, then your teams sucks.
That only matters on closely matched teams, any team that is weaker on the other side doesnt matter anyways, you can go stand on 2 with the best GWF, CW ,TR or HR and hold it against the other teams 2-3 players over and over for 5-6 minutes at a time, die 1-2 times and go back.
Then those same peeps think the DC is godmode and complain that they cant kill them, only because they have no gear basically. Any 17+ romping GWF can ax me in a couple seconds, same goes for TR, CW .. HRs have less burst, so dont down me, but they can eventually kill me, I can stalemate them a little longer. TRs that are full perma and just knock out a couple items , then go stealth again are basically stalemated as well.
That doesnt meant the DC isnt viable, it is, its just not as fun as it was pre tenacity.
thats my 2 cents. In terms of pve, GO run a AC pvp specced DC into IWD and tell me that isnt slow and boring.. it is. Massive times two.
DOESNT mean its hard, just boring as heck.. WHY? becuase the stupid black ice damage only impacts two classes.
AC specced DC and Tanky specced GF.. they build everything through defense, deflect, mitigation instead of damage and they are the only two classes penalized for it.. thanks cryptic.
Well, I don't have the statistics to back it up, but my feeling is that most players who primarily play DCs are more into PvE than PvP - and yeah, IWD didn't do much for us, but to be fair, we knew beforehand that Module 3 had a higher focus on PvP.
As far as PvE is concerned, well - yes, DCs tend to kill slower than some other classes - but that's nothing new - it's always been like that. Of course, depending on the DCs gear and skill, some parts (like Biggrin's) might even be reasonably challenging, but that's just how it should be. I don't equate "slow" with "boring" - in fact, I would find things more boring with more "instakills".
Now (again, considering PvE), we got a few boons, although they are a bit, well, underwhelming...but as for gear, well - the thing is, after you have unlocked everything, there is no real reason to continue running IWD - After you get your purified/corrupt BI gear, you don't have to worry about BI damage, but at that time you don't really have any motivation to go to the area at all or to use the gear at all.
After I got my Purified pieces, I did KR until I had the accessories - my goal was just to get the "The Pure" title, but now I have no real reason to use my BI gear...it's back to HP and MH for me.
While all DCs actually have very good AoE burst potential there are extremes, with AC+defensive stats one side and DO+offensive stats on the other. You're simply on the other side of that extreme. This is understandable since you are specced for PvP, but you have to realize that most DCs actually fall in the middle. My own DC would be somewhere near the opposite extreme, and yes I completely rock IWD. PvP-wise I'm just waiting for the 3 OP builds/classes to be fixed/become more stable.
Again, PvP is hardly balanced and everyone knows that, even the devs. Do you really think they're nerfing GWFs for strictly PvE reasons in mod4? Destroyers probably won't even notice the nerf in PvE if there's a DC in the party.
You people are ridiculous. Other classes are getting nerfed significantly and STILL you're complaining as if a dev decided to cut DC healing by half.
HRs are hardly a good example of a balanced class. As I said earlier, they even decided to change the HR's third paragon feat path because the old one wasn't doing so well. They added/removed several powers. Basically, the class isn't even done yet. The nerfs/rebalances won't start coming in earnest until they actually finish working on the basics of the class. Until then, it will likely remain a monster in PvP.
IT Was fine up to IWD, the only change is that damage that bypasses all of my mitigation, which is only a disadvantage to two specific specs, so why did the implement it to start with?
Since I have to run pve content to boon out and be pvp competitive , I dont have much of a choice do I ...
I would put my personal rating somewhere on the DC class of 5 or 6 out of ten, Im not really stating that its terrible per se in relation to the game, but in terms of how fun a class can play, I would put this near the bottom of any healer Ive played in the last 20 years of my own personal experience. You may disagree, thats your right, its again, my own personal opinion on the matter. I did enjoy the DC alot more pre tenacity, where I could be DO specced honestly, but I tried over 200 matches as a DO, and found it wanting in the current meta of things.
I do however, wonder why you are always so enthusiastic about the class =P..
Do you not agree, that if nothing else some general reworking of the feats and path lines are warranted?
I would also like to see some animation speed ups and reworked buffs that go party wide and not specific hot spots, since the game has changed and not only one range was added (HR) but now another (SW) , these specific skills were created when group dynamics were not as spread out.
I want my Divine Glow and Ashield to effect parties , not tight aoe spots.
Then say that. The way you say "DCs are boring" makes it seem like you are under the impression that all DCs are AC-specced and stacking defensive stats/attributes and that all of them play like saintly guardian angels.
I don't understand this part. Are you talking about Black Ice damage? Do you know that Black Ice damage only works in PvE? If it worked in PvP then that would be a bug - Black Ice damage becomes cold damage in PvP and Black Ice damage was designed to be NPC-only damage.
You have, its called joining a party. You designed your character to be reliant on parties. You intentionally made the choices that would sacrifice a large chunk of its solo potential for PvP party play.
A meta which is broken, more so than previous metas except perhaps a few from mod1 and last days of mod2, hence some of the changes in mod4. The implication here is that you are playing a character designed for a -very- broken/unbalanced meta. You shouldn't be surprised if your character plays oddly.
Considering how I bothered to read all your other posts carefully, I would have expected the same courtesy. Then, you would have known the answer to these questions.
Obviously you haven't bothered, and yet somehow you expect other people to be more understanding/lenient of your posts.
Ok, healing step looks like it would be a giant help in PvP, but other than that, there's not that much in it. Like, 5-10% here or there.
All our big nukes are universal (HoF doesn't really count as a nuke any more), so for AC/DO really all I can see is "do you use BotS a lot or not" as being the clincher. And I don't, really.
Hell, I once went a week with no feats at all (patch update forced a respec on all DCs, I regrabbed all my powers but then forgot about feats). I only noticed when I spotted hallowed ground wasn't healing.
Essentially any IWD solo content is going to be more tedious for DCs (and GFs) than it will be for other classes, but other than making the mistake of running solo content with a bar o' heals and trying to plink stuff to death with at-wills, you shouldn't find it any more tedious as an AC than as a DO, nor should your choice of feats make all that much of a difference.
I run both a GF and DC, so I will find out. GFs are getting massive aggro spikes and a guard that allows damage to trickle in, so a DC-GF tandem may be in order. Currently, with equally geared teammates (13.5 - 15k), I can run all but CN and MC without a DC. I don't really enjoy it, but it is doable. I can't see that happening in Mod 4 as control will go down, the CWs AOE nuking ability will be scaled back and the GF's aggro will go through the roof.
No I didnt read all of your threads, Ive read enough of yours though to know your gist, so you probably can say the same about mine.
Dont bully.
Its not as much of an advantage as say a regular DPS class, but its more then a AC has at the moment. So yes, I would find the two different to play, Ive also run both recently, as I tried to respec to DO to pvp again , to see how it felt in MOD 3, I would say it still doesnt compare to a AC class, so I respecced back. Which was kind of a waste of zen in the end.
Couldn't agree more!
I'm feel very upset too, first i made myself a GF, i think i don't need to say, what it's worth..., now i have a fine growing DC, but i begun to feel the less need for us, only CWF and in PVP there are also very harsh environments for us, we are mostly the first to be attacked and can't really do much about it, only prolong things.
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You act like I'm demonizing or outright insulting you, which so far I have not been doing. We were having a civil argument though and there's really nothing wrong with that. But I do feel disappointed that you apparently didn't even bother to read my replies carefully.
Indeed it's not your thread but the point of a thread is to discuss the main topic or discuss/add to issues related to or relevant to the main topic. By repeatedly pointing out how boring or how bad your experiences were with the cleric in this thread you could be considered acting as if you were a "harbinger of doom". In all fairness though I thought you knew all of this already, which is why I reacted by challenging your posts. What did you expect? This is a forum - part of the point is to give out opinions/challenge them.
Anyway if the thread title/topic had been something else like "Share your DC experiences" then I would have reacted differently.
I think there are two main differences between ACs and DOs for solo. Note that I'm focusing on mid/late game here, not an end-game scenario where everyone has all their powers maxed.
The first is with powers:
-BotS may be an at-will but it does around the same damage as Break the Spirit/Forgemaster's Flame - think on demand BtS/FF-equivalent damage (BotS only does 300 less damage than my BtS, according to the tooltip). You have got to agree that that's a signifcant advantage right there.
-Terrifying Insight. +16% damage on anything that refuses die in one or so hits. That means the DO can potentially kill tough mobs 16% faster than ACs. The difference becomes more pronounced once we start talking high burst damage powers like Daunting Light and Flame Strike (double Flame Strike or HG+Flamestrike with the DC artifact) and crits.
Terrifying Insight also works by debuffing monsters so the damage boost is applied when the target takes damage instead of when a power is used (works this way even with DotS), so keeping the damage boost up on a small group of tough mobs is easy.
-All nukes are universal, but DOs can afford to pick more offense powers than ACs. There are only 3 powers you should really get ASAP on a DO - Terrifying Insight, BotS and of course Foresight. I've met lots of ACs who skipped Daunting Light or who didn't max Searing Light and Chains (together these are among our strongest IWD nukes).
The second is with playstyle, though it can argued this is a result of the above:
-DOs can deal damage while repositioning/running around much easier than ACs. This is a big plus in IWD. They can even generate DP while moving using only at-wills, which allows for Punishing Light spam and even more mobile DPS.
-All DOs are (or should be) well-equipped for solo. I mean seriously, you only need 3 powers from the DO paragon path and as a DC you only need around 10-15 powers to do your job well + fill niche roles as required. At most that gives you enough points to max 3 other powers for solo.
-DOs can go all out damage-wise. As long as you can actually kill mobs (or all the squishies) after doing your burst rotation you won't need to slot healing powers. I've tackled IWD using a DO in rank 5s, lesser Holy Avenger, and High Prophet while using DL/SL/Chains + LoF/BotS and feated HL/TI. It can be done, as long as you avoid those occasional mob spawns that for some reason have ridiculously higher HP/damage than normal. You'll want to use potions often (preferably the normal ones, not the IWD ones) but that shouldn't be a problem. I still managed to generate surplus gold with this character.
The difference between paragon feat paths is more subtle. Bottomline though is that Virtuous adds another +10% damage to DODCs thanks to feated Healer's Lore (which procs very often thanks to Repupose Soul) and a Power/Rec bonus. If I understand Kaelac's calculations correctly feated Daunting Light adds another +10% damage for a few secs (I don't have it).
All in all, that's a lot of extra damage. Even the alt DODC I mentioned earlier can potentially kill tightly clustered mobs, including the elite, in one hit (crit). Normally though that character just brings down the elites to 40% HP or so if they're in tight groups of around 4 (a more practical number). As a follow up I use Daunting +at-wills or Daunting + Flame Strike, or I use Daunting + double Flame Strike for tougher groups. For "bosses" I prefer using Hallowed Ground.
encounters, class feature and daily are almost the same
at the end 99% of the time i don't use AC specific encounters
we have serious problem with the feats
when i was weak, it was common to take any feat that the word "heal" was involved
and it was ok, ppl were weak, no artifacts, and even some were cheap about potions
now... its hard to chose which is the worst feat if you wana level a path
desperate renewal
restoration mastery
rage of tempus
ancient warding
warding shield
righteous flame
...
all our last path feats are so weak, that many don't even pick them
our encounters are not bad, and with divinity its a real boost
but a refreshment for our daily is needed (especially the ones that suppose to do damage)
Dungeons will be longer because of the CW/GWF nerfs so debuffer DCs will be more than welcome.
Temptation SW is making very big self heal and pretty good party heal as well.
However it cannot debuff and it cannot give a clutch to the team like Divine Armor to oppose burst Damage and it cannot give that much debuff.
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Can we get more details on this? An educated and detailed list of what can a Temptation SW offer to a group in Mod4.
Let's intelligently compare and contrast if you have the details
Akkron