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guild bank thieving
drezzat
Member Posts: 291 Arc User
Just a thought, once again I have come across the instance of a trusted guild member cleaning out the guild bank and fleeing. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a way for guild leaders to contact ALL the other guild leaders at once to notify them of these thieves. like guild leader email. it would serve 2 purposes
1. Stop other guilds from being taken in by these thieves
2. a deterrent to this behavior, knowing that they may not ever find another guild might make them think twice before perpetrating such vile behavior
thoughts anyone?
1. Stop other guilds from being taken in by these thieves
2. a deterrent to this behavior, knowing that they may not ever find another guild might make them think twice before perpetrating such vile behavior
thoughts anyone?
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Considering PWE owns more rights to this game, its a maybe, HUGE maybe but yes. They did listen to player base in their first game (pwi) it just took forever for the actual game designers to concede because PWE was just managers, not owners.
Older bro's guild got robbed back in January and support replied with a generic "Oh we're investigating [insert more excuses/lies here]"
.............. We still see those same thieves (two of them) that robbed the bank play completely freely today. What a support.
Yea, at the moment it depends on what game you play in before you see actual playerbase/dev interaction. I seen more here than others, but still seems to have a middle entity gap. I think swordsman will have a more direct pwe/playerbase flare to it, since they seem to be parading it thier first PWE publish....even though its a PWI recycle.
This pretty much...
On a side note, in most games what people did to detour the name shame rules would create third party communities (ie) forums for that particular cause of informing the community. but really, it would be hard to even do that because this community is so vast, you hardly see the same name twice. Or guilds for that matter. in older games, server populations were smaller, and a bad/good name went a long ways.
HUH? LOL
A guild leader would never kick someone for calling them on their BS and use such a system to spread lies, right?
A guild leader would never see someone quit their guild and take offense and tell other people that they kicked them for stealing from the guild or for being bad at their class, right?
Oh, wait. They would. And the easier they make it, the more likely it would be to happen.
You got a problem with someone? You have friends in other guilds? Put the word there.
If it's too much trouble to mail a few messages to friends in different guilds then whatever happened must not have mattered much to you.
I suppose there is no harm in asking for it, so long as no naming and shaming occurs, but basically everything charononus said is true.
Blacklists can work well in small communities where at least the figureheads know and trust each other.
Blind trust blacklists do not work. Period.
People are not only too prone to being vindictive but they are also subject to different views on what is right and wrong. For instance do you know how many Name and Shame threads I have had to shut down in which the reason they wanted to form the blacklist was for something as stupid as how skilled the player is?
This player is bad so don't play with them? That's 100% subjective especially if bad is defined by having a different play style. Not everybody likes to do speed runs, that doesn't make them bad but I used to see that argument a lot.
However just so that this is more than "thinking" and opinion on how well it will work please feel free to search the Champions Online and Star Trek Online Forums regarding Report Spam Abuse. Shockingly it hasn't been something I see a lot of on the Neverwinter forums but there are constantly complaints of abuse of the feature in Champions and Star Trek. Don't like somebody? Have a group of your friends all Report Spam within a short enough time period and give them a 24 hour mute.
Here is a thread for reference but I promise you that there are plenty more. In fact I know of at least one more because one of the people who was on the sharp end of Report Spam Abuse in STO currently moderates these forums.
So yeah...you can ask...but it is not a good idea, it will not work, it will be abused, it will cause a lot of drama and there's next to no chance of it being implemented. It has nothing to do with not listening to feedback, please read the Preview Forums, and everything to do with ideas such as this relying on the world to be a utopia in order to function.
There is your problem. You trusted someone you didn't know well enough. And Cryptic can't fix your personal trust issues. If that player had his account "hacked" (lol), and the "hacker" cleaned the guild bank, I could see a real issue there. But if he simply decided to rob you, there's nothing Cryptic could (or should) do.
But ultimately, this is what guild bank permissions are for. Never set them to anything higher than you're willing to have taken out. That includes officers...and to that point, drama happens. It's games. People get mad, rage and do things like this. Which sucks, but it's not something PWE can control. They can't step in to every spat and play "mommy dearest". It's all a game of he said/she said, anyway.
As far as adding "guild thieves" to a roster, it's also your responsibility to vet potential guild members before inviting them, and certainly before giving them access to the guild bank. But most people think "more members means my guild is better" and will invite any Tom, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or Harry that /zone Looking for guild! If you have a solid process for interviewing potential guild members, this doesn't happen. And if you don't take the time to examine potential members, then you're opening your guild up to this kind of abuse.
And finally, never ever put anything in your guild bank that you just can't afford to lose.
Just as an example, limit withdrawls to 2-3 bank slots per day per guild member. This way, someone could not completely clean-out a guild bank in seconds. And an offender could be kicked from the guild with minimal losses to the guild bank.
I have never been in a guild, so I don't know if this idea would work, but it seems plausible.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I don't run a guild in neverwinter (or Champions or Star Trek, for that matter) - but have participated in them and I've always though the Guild Managers/founder could set this very thing: limited allowance of withdrawal from Guild Bank. At least in STO this is the case - I remember many times being in "Fleets" there (guilds) having very limited access to guild bank: withdrawal only 3 or 4 items from bank in a week, never able to withdrawal currency until promoted within, and even them there is a daily/weekly limit, etc.
However - I don;t know if Neverwinter's version does or allows for this, and still: even withdrawal limits won;t work if the perpetrator is an officer or manager with higher access.
In short: it comes down to trust of other people and unfortunately, as we've all no doubt experienced, sometimes that trust is broken.
I don't run a guild but I am an Officer in a Guild.
What I do know:
Our Rank 1 recruits can not withdraw anything from the guild bank.
Our Rank 2 Standard Members have a limit less than me, possibly 20 items. Been a while.
Our Rank 4 and 5 Officers have a limit of 50 items.
Top Rank has no limit.
We have a unique tab that any member may put an item into but only leaders can remove from (typically used for donations either to the guild or high ticket items intended to be given to members in need)
What I do not know:
How adjustable these limits are. I know the donations tab was set up with permissions but I do not know how much guild leaders cn control other aspects such as withdrawal limits.
A "default punishment for thievery in any MMO"? No. It has never been the case. Not in any MMO i've played so far. Try searching "ricdic ebank scandal" on google and read a few articles, it will show pretty much what is the current MMO standard.
In other words, why should they ban him? Did he break any game rules? The EULA? Nope. He acted according to his own rights (that the guild master personally accorded him through the guild panel).
yep afaik he didn't break any rules. was he a jerk? sure that might be the case but thats no reason to ban him. because you gave him acces to the guild bank. that like giving some1 a key of your house and say your free to take what you like. then start crying he striped your house. but the fault is with you for giving him acces to the gbank and gave him the right to take it. so the blame is on you not cryptic
The alleged thief had enough access to the Guild Bank to do what he or she allegedly did. The Guild Manager or otherwise owner gave this person that level of access, or someone else gave this access and that someone else was 'authorized' by the OP.
I say "alleged" thief because as far as we know this was a trusted person, therefor benefit of doubt should be the rule here; it could have been some kind of accident that deleted (rather than withdrawn) the contents, for example, and this alleged thief is far too embarrassed to admit it (it can be easier to just crawl under a rock and hide). If the person earned enough trust to have that access level, then overall and of the majority of time this person must be a good person by all accounts; this is a one-time incident (hence: Trusted until now; broken trust).
IF this is truly a trusted person. Otherwise, if this person really is a selve-serving thief then the ones placing trust into that person may want to reevaluate their vetting process for issuing trust to others, especially in this anonymous world.
TL;DR: I really hate to say it, but facts are facts and truth is truth: @OP I won't go as far as to say the fault is yours, but rather state that what happened started with you by giving this person the level of access that allows what happened to happen. Thus, any kind of "punishment" against this person becomes a moot point.
All I can do is reiterate these two truths:
1) Live and learn because experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
2) You cannot plan the future on events of the past.
*****
Because too many people actually confuse the word "mute" with "moot" - here is the primary word definition:
MOOT: Adjective:
It is the second primary definition (in yellow) that applies in the context of my comment above.
If he did it in the real world, there was no violation of the law.
He had permission to withdraw the item(s) by the owner(s) of said items.
Repeat after me: He had permission.
No lawbreaking going on there.
No, that's not enough.
Was it a case of two people making a bet and giving him the item(s) to hold and award the winner of the race or whatever? Did he say that he would hold the items while someone switched characters (we'll assume that there were no nearby mailboxes)?
You have no evidence of fraud at all.
Three things happened here:
A player was given permission to access the guild vault at some level by the rightful controllers of the guild vault.
That player excercised their access permissions.
That player left the guild.
It's just as likely that someone decided to upgrade their character, someone else got mad about it, and the other guy decided to quit or got kicked, and the guild wants to smear him for not kissing the proper amount of tail and not double and triple-checking before he used permissions that the guild granted him.
Heck, that player may have put those items in the guild vault in the first place and decided that he was going to get them back out before he quit.
I guarantee you that if I joined a guild, contributed to the guild regularly, and then decided, for whatever reason, that I was leaving, I would have zero problem going to the vault and reclaiming some of what I had placed there.
Such as... killing people (PvP)? It's obvious that gameplay-related laws do not and can not apply here.
Defraud, scam or cheat are definitely not terms that apply when you have been authorized to access and take as many items as you wish from a common pool. In other words, you can argue this is borderline, but definitely not clearly against the rules as you stated.
This section is there as a safeguard for cases of account stealing and real money trading. It shouldn't apply to normal gameplay. In other words, Cryptic won't reverse your mistakes (and often theirs as well). Being kicked out of a party at boss loot, not getting your share of split loot, having guild bank items taken (all cases of ingame forms of "stealing") usually gets you a simple "deal with it, choose your friends wisely" response and nothing else.
If he then withdraws those items, he is within his rights.
If his taking the amount of items he was alotted causes discomfort, then his permissions should not have been set to the amount of items he was allowed to take. Let me remind you that it is a daily limit (afaik) so if he was allowed enough items to clean out the bank then maybe his daily limit was way too high.
There is no rule saying you cannot fully access your permission in guild bank, hence no rule is broken.
This isn't a case of "I said he could have some stuff and he cleaned me out" this is a case of "I expressly gave this player permissions to withdraw these items from the guild bank".
PvP is part of the regular gameplay, as is everything directed to a character with "legal" gameplay. Generally speaking, spying, deceiving and stealing or otherwise being "ingame" bad to players or guilds is usually considered a normal gameplay in most MMOs (simply, playing an "evil" character and doing mischief, i.e. being a pirate/thief/player-killer or whatever you want to call the bad guys, based on game setting and background) except those mostly kids/family-oriented (Lego Universe, Wizard 101 and such) that have special protection because, well, kids.
The only TOS releated issues are those directed at a player (thus, generally, being racist, offending, threatening, stalking, and things otherwise regarding real money and real life scams/frauds) that should not and are not being tolerated.