The leaderboards were a bad idea to put into the game in the first place. They create elitism and make the lower ranked players feel like they are bad.
Now that we do have it in the game, what really gets me is that aside from the devs saying the system is an elo system, there is a large amount of evidence that what they say about the system's working are not true. This gives the players a feeling that the developers of the game are either incompetent or dishonest.
The most glaring point which doesn't match the developers explaining is players dropping rank for winning. At first I didn't actually believe players because I don't know of any ELO system where a person can lose points for winning. But then I read reports of it on the forums, then started hearing about it from within my guild, then started to experience it myself, repeatedly.
The last time I did PVP, I hadn't in a while and dropped a few ranks over the course of about a week, from around upper page 6 to mid page 6 over the course of a week of inactivity. After I play 3 matches in which I won every match, I lost roughly half a page twice and over a full page once, all back to back and all about 20 minutes apart. So after 3 wins I lost about 50~ ranks and dropped to mid page 8.
It's always interesting to note after you haven't done any PVP that over the course of a day you can lose a few ranks every couple hours, but after you win and lose rank you will instantly see yourself drop half a page to a full page. You will even see players that are offline pass by you.
It puts into question everything else we have heard about the PVP ELO system and it puts into question every explanation we are given for why we experience certain things that don't seem right about it.
Its even more messed up than it seems.
A week ago I was queuing with my guild full premade.
Me on page 1 leaderboard, my girlfriend page 98 and the rest of us all in the top100.
We won 6 matches in a row. Two against another premade, two against pvpler who solo and duo qued and were put together and two games against the usual 10k gs pugs.
Now the absolut strange thing happened: After these matches I CLIMBED two ranks (not pages btw and the players I surpased werent online) and my girlfriend DROPPED down to page 680ish. I was just WTF! This is a true story witnessed by five players.
Something is unbelievable wrong in this system and I am very sure that this is not WAI!
That was probably a bot. I have fought two bot TRs in the last 3 days. They use the exact same powers in the exact same sequence and once locked onto a target they ignore anyone near them. I proned both and they just went back to fighting the first person they locked on to. I highly doubt a real player would do that. Also, neither TR used Stealth. What PVP TR does not use Stealth?
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
The leaderboards were a bad idea to put into the game in the first place. They create elitism and make the lower ranked players feel like they are bad.
Now that we do have it in the game, what really gets me is that aside from the devs saying the system is an elo system, there is a large amount of evidence that what they say about the system's working are not true. This gives the players a feeling that the developers of the game are either incompetent or dishonest.
I think the leaderboards do promote some sort of elitism and bad habits from some players.
You have to understand that the ELO system cannot and will not work if there are a lack of players with enough data to queue for level 60 PVP each and every second. Compound that with having enough "well-geared" and "equally skilled" players for multiple matches and you have a big big problem.
Fact is, there aren't enough players queueing. The data on most players are not enough either. ELO system will compromise itself to prevent 1-hour queue times, hence leading to imbalanced matches.
At any given point, there are an estimated 40 PVP instances going on. take away low level PVP and you'd have a rough estimate of 30-35 instances. That's right, there are only 150-200 players queueing with a very wide margin of skill and gear. ELO cannot fix that. Enticing endgame and fixing bugs/class balance to attract more players to this game will.
Yea.. well some time ago I was wondering as it really is.
I found a way to call other leaderboard window with numbers instead "rank".
How it looks? 1st page, last page.
I can check my score after every match and... guess what! 90% of my winning matches in 2-5 man premade against pugs = -0.16 score points.
I think that there is no matchmaking system now before mod 3 matchmaking worked a lot better.
...and Leaderboard ≠ ELO rating.
This guy above pretty much found the hidden rating that Cryptic doesn't want to show us. Now it is possible to prove that you lose rating CONSISTENTLY by winning against lesser ranked teams, resulting in drops in the leaderboards.
I'm surprised almost nobody bothered to acknowledge his find.
Great job, Shayenne.
In the worst case, winning against pugs in a game where we cannot avoid playing against them, should not move us down on the leaderboard and make our rating go down.
Please solve this issue Cryptic, it is not our fault we get matched with low end teams.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
That's silly. You should never, ever lose ranking for winning.
Actually, it's quite reasonable. If your win was overcast by someones' win who performed better on the charts, then of course you're going to "drop" below them at some point if they keep raising above your wins. Just as it is reasonable that a win against a lesser ranked team won't provide as much "win" to stay above others winning against higher ranked teams.
What I think would help is that if a Party Q's for PvP, they should only be matched with another Party that Q'd. Eg. Premade vs. Premade needs to be implemented. It's not a cure-all but it would help the rankings to settle down and even out better.
Actually, it's quite reasonable. If your win was overcast by someones' win who performed better on the charts, then of course you're going to "drop" below them at some point if they keep raising above your wins. Just as it is reasonable that a win against a lesser ranked team won't provide as much "win" to stay above others winning against higher ranked teams.
What??
Just for clarification, u dont drop ranks because others are playing, u drop ranks because ur are LOOSING rating while winning. That si just wrong and even gentlecrush states that that should NOT HAPPEN.
With the actual numbers displaying we have PROOF mow that u loose rating while winning.
What more do we have to do to get a clear statement from an official who acknowledges this.
We are at a point now where u ignore proven FACTS.
Actually, it's quite reasonable. If your win was overcast by someones' win who performed better on the charts, then of course you're going to "drop" below them at some point if they keep raising above your wins. Just as it is reasonable that a win against a lesser ranked team won't provide as much "win" to stay above others winning against higher ranked teams.
What you saying is reasonable, yet it is not what happens in reality. It also is NOT what people are complaining about.
Since you now can see the hidden real score/ELO/rating, you can PROVE beyond any doubts that a win against pugs, regardless of what other people do, will drop your rating.
This is the base of our complaint. Rating drop because of WINNING against lower rated adversaries that we cannot avoid due to how matchmaking is working.
Nobody would complain if you would drop because another person gained more points that you. Yet you do not go dow because somebody else gained points! You go down because you actually LOST POINTS.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Makes much more sense now what you're all arguing about. Sorry but it's hard to make heads or tales some times what all your complaints are. Posts 47, 48, 49 all cleared it up. Passing this on! Thanks!
Makes much more sense now what you're all arguing about. Sorry but it's hard to make heads or tales some times what all your complaints are. Posts 47, 48, 49 all cleared it up. Passing this on! Thanks!
. . . If you believe you've gotten a botter in a pvp match (or anywhere really), please report them through in-game Support. Press H, then GM Help and choose Behavior as the category.
Problem is you spend more time reporting then playing the game when you start reporting.
Hey, I have 2 hours available to play, great I'll login and report for 1:30 hour, invoke, start some professions and do 1 skirmish.
Finding a evenly matched game is what the ELO should be all about so we have fun. 9 outa 10 pvp games are unbalanced. elit premades face low GS pugs and players that sign up with a partial premade end up getting other partial premades on ther team fighting against low GS pugs.
I guess eventually it will be even pvp games because only a small group of elite premades will be left here to pvp.then all the work on the elo or matchmaking wont really matter anyways because there wont be any pugs.
Thanks to degraafination, futuun, Zeb, and everyone for pointing this out. However, this is not actually a bug. When a player with a high certainty rank plays in a match where the rank spread is high and happens to win, the uncertainty of that player’s rank can actually increase. An increase in uncertainty actually reduces rank. This occurs because our algorithm mixes in a slight amount of uncertainty of a player’s rank every time they play a match. This is what allows players to move quickly up the ranks when they go on a winning streak.
There are solutions to this that are mostly cosmetic and other solutions that will also affect the algorithm and affect the ability for players to “move the needle” when they go on a winning streak. We are considering some of those changes at this time.
However, the quality of the matchmaking is not likely to be affected by this phenomenon. Matchmaking quality is highly dependent on the queue population at the time of the match.
Thanks to degraafination, futuun, Zeb, and everyone for pointing this out. However, this is not actually a bug. When a player with a high certainty rank plays in a match where the rank spread is high and happens to win, the uncertainty of that player’s rank can actually increase. An increase in uncertainty actually reduces rank. This occurs because our algorithm mixes in a slight amount of uncertainty of a player’s rank every time they play a match. This is what allows players to move quickly up the ranks when they go on a winning streak.
There are solutions to this that are mostly cosmetic and other solutions that will also affect the algorithm and affect the ability for players to “move the needle” when they go on a winning streak. We are considering some of those changes at this time.
However, the quality of the matchmaking is not likely to be affected by this phenomenon. Matchmaking quality is highly dependent on the queue population at the time of the match.
Akromatik.
There are two separate issues in this topic. Which one exactly is the one that you are answering to?!?
1. issue one, from first post: a high rank player (page 3 or so) got a bot of 500 GS in his party. This should NEVER happen. EVER.
2. second issue. This is even more important, and completely different. Please read attentively:
- A player managed to make the hidden rank show.
- We can now prove, beyond any doubts, that going on "winning streaks" against lower ranked players is making us LOSE RANKING.
- the above happens regardless of what other nearby players do. Let me reiterate, as I suspect you're not an avid PvPer. We LOSE RANKING, because we WIN. WHY?
- because the matchmaking sets us up with LOW RANK individuals.
We wish we could avoid those games, as we obviously do not want to lose rank and farm pugs, yet there is no way we can do that. Quitting any game will drop us and be considered a loss. This is the equivalent of you running a dungeon and losing Astral Diamonds at the end instead of getting loot.
Conclusion:
The ranking system is broken. Nobody should ever lose ranking by winning.
Please fix.
I hope I can cleared this up for you even further. Thanks.
How is the ELO system work on a full or partial team entry? Obviously, the team will not be broken up so is the ELO system just going to pick up 5 random bodies from the queue to match with them or are they going to be paired with another team?
Let's say the scenario is 2 different teams of 4 members each joined the queue. One is a 18k premade. The other is a group of 6k buddies who just want to stick together and learn the rope. Will the ELO feed the 6k team to the bellies of the 18k team or just assign them to 5 6k-ish solo bodies in the queue?
Also, on the 500 gs "bot" issue. Having 500 gs doesn't automatically put the word "bot" on a player's forehead. There are heaps of aimbots, particularly the melees who never miss a swing.
0
futuunMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Matchmaking works well between 6pm and 9pm (GMT) at other times i can win 10-20 times in row and lose 1.6-3.2 score points. It is not my fault thats i have to fight against weaker players.
Why win against weaker players should decrease my rank?
It is a stupid system! Think about it...
When someone is number one (has the highest ELO rating?) he can only lose his rank or... stop playing this game?
This should be changed in mod 4.
I think the main flaw of ELO system is it does not have GS acknowledged. Winning against a 8k GSer is completely different from winning over a 16k one, but its basically treated the same. It is not chess and the GS does matter...
Just did a pvp 1 person was 11k gs, so acceptable, 2 were 7k, and 1 was 8k. All of their team seemed to be decently geared. Low gs shouldnt be in the same group as higher geared people, but if they are, the least you could do is balance it out.
Also no matter what you say, there's no excuse for losing rank when winning. Luckily idc too much about pvp but the ladder just means nothing and is one of the worst matchmaking systems I've seen. Then again I expected too much from this game.
Because here I am PVPing solo. I queued randomly with three other very well geared players (all of us were in the top 10 pages on the Leaderboard, I believe). Our fifth player was...
Seriously? We're all level 60!
I agree with others, most likely a bot, or maybe someone that is rebelling and knows that is going to really urk someone.
I think we have discovered that the PVP player base is not up to the standards of an ELO system. I hear it works but its set up to allow for fast queues, ergo if not enough people of the appropriate rating are on then you get whatever is available. At times i'm ok with this, since well its like opening a dungeon chest, sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't.
Thanks to degraafination, futuun, Zeb, and everyone for pointing this out. However, this is not actually a bug. When a player with a high certainty rank plays in a match where the rank spread is high and happens to win, the uncertainty of that player’s rank can actually increase. An increase in uncertainty actually reduces rank. This occurs because our algorithm mixes in a slight amount of uncertainty of a player’s rank every time they play a match. This is what allows players to move quickly up the ranks when they go on a winning streak.
There are solutions to this that are mostly cosmetic and other solutions that will also affect the algorithm and affect the ability for players to “move the needle” when they go on a winning streak. We are considering some of those changes at this time.
However, the quality of the matchmaking is not likely to be affected by this phenomenon. Matchmaking quality is highly dependent on the queue population at the time of the match.
I'm a mathematician, and the problem tickled my mind, I wondering if you are allowed to tell me (I know information about proprietary code is very hard to clear with the bosses for even generalized release of information about it) if the tracking system for the matchmaking code has a lowish hard cap on the number data points it can hold per character before passing the information to the algorithm (software capped), or is the variable cap one of the practicality of processing power (hardware capped)?
I have no trouble with pvp matches having both 8kgs and 15kgs people, the problem is that the system tends to put the 15k gs on one side and the 8kgs on the other.
If they would be placed evenly then it would be much better.
Basically, if you win - you gain "some" ELO points depending on the ELO rating of your competition -- if you are way above them, you only gain a tiny bit -- if you are below them you gain a great deal.
This is False, The ELO system in NW, has no real value, Believe me.... Queing with 5/5 18K GS players (top 10 pages) and we go against 5/5 8-10K players.,.... No im sorry but there is no value or math or method to how the Leaderboard/ELO works in Neverwinter, Along with many other problems in PvP. HR's are OP obviously.... Best class in the game Currently, Heavily Broken, and WAY more powerful then GWF's.
But ya ELO system has no math or method behind it, If u get lucky and u get matched with equal players, sure....you might have a chance to move up a few spots.....
The Problem is...You never get matched into a Feasible match...... lmao what a joke.... Mod 3 was the biggest Fail in Neverwinter's history imo.
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've noticed in the past few days unless you win against someone higher rank then you, your probably not going to advance in rank
In addition, when you win against someone significantly lower than you, you'll actually drop in rank (sometimes significantly).
The entire Leaderboard concept is a terrible idea. I say get rid of it. PVP was so much more enjoyable when everyone wasn't so concerned about their ranking.
I have no trouble with pvp matches having both 8kgs and 15kgs people, the problem is that the system tends to put the 15k gs on one side and the 8kgs on the other.
If they would be placed evenly then it would be much better.
That is actually pretty sensible and I agree. was in a match this morning with my CW , where I was 12 and 0 and I was fighting myself 2-3 at a time.. again on my CW.. flip a switch next match, my 15k with a 16k gf and then nothing, 7 and 8 kers for the other two.. where the other team completely trounced them over and over. So instead of putting one 7k gs on each team, I do not know why they seem to stack one team with the majority of them vs the other.
Comments
Now that we do have it in the game, what really gets me is that aside from the devs saying the system is an elo system, there is a large amount of evidence that what they say about the system's working are not true. This gives the players a feeling that the developers of the game are either incompetent or dishonest.
The most glaring point which doesn't match the developers explaining is players dropping rank for winning. At first I didn't actually believe players because I don't know of any ELO system where a person can lose points for winning. But then I read reports of it on the forums, then started hearing about it from within my guild, then started to experience it myself, repeatedly.
The last time I did PVP, I hadn't in a while and dropped a few ranks over the course of about a week, from around upper page 6 to mid page 6 over the course of a week of inactivity. After I play 3 matches in which I won every match, I lost roughly half a page twice and over a full page once, all back to back and all about 20 minutes apart. So after 3 wins I lost about 50~ ranks and dropped to mid page 8.
It's always interesting to note after you haven't done any PVP that over the course of a day you can lose a few ranks every couple hours, but after you win and lose rank you will instantly see yourself drop half a page to a full page. You will even see players that are offline pass by you.
It puts into question everything else we have heard about the PVP ELO system and it puts into question every explanation we are given for why we experience certain things that don't seem right about it.
A week ago I was queuing with my guild full premade.
Me on page 1 leaderboard, my girlfriend page 98 and the rest of us all in the top100.
We won 6 matches in a row. Two against another premade, two against pvpler who solo and duo qued and were put together and two games against the usual 10k gs pugs.
Now the absolut strange thing happened: After these matches I CLIMBED two ranks (not pages btw and the players I surpased werent online) and my girlfriend DROPPED down to page 680ish. I was just WTF! This is a true story witnessed by five players.
Something is unbelievable wrong in this system and I am very sure that this is not WAI!
I think the leaderboards do promote some sort of elitism and bad habits from some players.
You have to understand that the ELO system cannot and will not work if there are a lack of players with enough data to queue for level 60 PVP each and every second. Compound that with having enough "well-geared" and "equally skilled" players for multiple matches and you have a big big problem.
Fact is, there aren't enough players queueing. The data on most players are not enough either. ELO system will compromise itself to prevent 1-hour queue times, hence leading to imbalanced matches.
At any given point, there are an estimated 40 PVP instances going on. take away low level PVP and you'd have a rough estimate of 30-35 instances. That's right, there are only 150-200 players queueing with a very wide margin of skill and gear. ELO cannot fix that. Enticing endgame and fixing bugs/class balance to attract more players to this game will.
xDD great teammate lol!
---
This is why we need a GS-Required PvP Domination & a minimum of GS to enter.
+ 2 PvP Queue Options.
Gear Score Requirement:
1. 8k - 13k = beginners, new players
the first PvP Domination whit lower reward.
2. 14k - Max = Advanced
for advanced players with a chance of a better reward.
This guy above pretty much found the hidden rating that Cryptic doesn't want to show us. Now it is possible to prove that you lose rating CONSISTENTLY by winning against lesser ranked teams, resulting in drops in the leaderboards.
I'm surprised almost nobody bothered to acknowledge his find.
Great job, Shayenne.
In the worst case, winning against pugs in a game where we cannot avoid playing against them, should not move us down on the leaderboard and make our rating go down.
Please solve this issue Cryptic, it is not our fault we get matched with low end teams.
What I think would help is that if a Party Q's for PvP, they should only be matched with another Party that Q'd. Eg. Premade vs. Premade needs to be implemented. It's not a cure-all but it would help the rankings to settle down and even out better.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
What??
Just for clarification, u dont drop ranks because others are playing, u drop ranks because ur are LOOSING rating while winning. That si just wrong and even gentlecrush states that that should NOT HAPPEN.
With the actual numbers displaying we have PROOF mow that u loose rating while winning.
What more do we have to do to get a clear statement from an official who acknowledges this.
We are at a point now where u ignore proven FACTS.
What you saying is reasonable, yet it is not what happens in reality. It also is NOT what people are complaining about.
Since you now can see the hidden real score/ELO/rating, you can PROVE beyond any doubts that a win against pugs, regardless of what other people do, will drop your rating.
This is the base of our complaint. Rating drop because of WINNING against lower rated adversaries that we cannot avoid due to how matchmaking is working.
Nobody would complain if you would drop because another person gained more points that you. Yet you do not go dow because somebody else gained points! You go down because you actually LOST POINTS.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Thanks for helping.
Problem is you spend more time reporting then playing the game when you start reporting.
Hey, I have 2 hours available to play, great I'll login and report for 1:30 hour, invoke, start some professions and do 1 skirmish.
I guess eventually it will be even pvp games because only a small group of elite premades will be left here to pvp.then all the work on the elo or matchmaking wont really matter anyways because there wont be any pugs.
There are solutions to this that are mostly cosmetic and other solutions that will also affect the algorithm and affect the ability for players to “move the needle” when they go on a winning streak. We are considering some of those changes at this time.
However, the quality of the matchmaking is not likely to be affected by this phenomenon. Matchmaking quality is highly dependent on the queue population at the time of the match.
Akromatik.
There are two separate issues in this topic. Which one exactly is the one that you are answering to?!?
1. issue one, from first post: a high rank player (page 3 or so) got a bot of 500 GS in his party. This should NEVER happen. EVER.
2. second issue. This is even more important, and completely different. Please read attentively:
- A player managed to make the hidden rank show.
- We can now prove, beyond any doubts, that going on "winning streaks" against lower ranked players is making us LOSE RANKING.
- the above happens regardless of what other nearby players do. Let me reiterate, as I suspect you're not an avid PvPer. We LOSE RANKING, because we WIN. WHY?
- because the matchmaking sets us up with LOW RANK individuals.
We wish we could avoid those games, as we obviously do not want to lose rank and farm pugs, yet there is no way we can do that. Quitting any game will drop us and be considered a loss.
This is the equivalent of you running a dungeon and losing Astral Diamonds at the end instead of getting loot.
Conclusion:
The ranking system is broken. Nobody should ever lose ranking by winning.
Please fix.
I hope I can cleared this up for you even further. Thanks.
Let's say the scenario is 2 different teams of 4 members each joined the queue. One is a 18k premade. The other is a group of 6k buddies who just want to stick together and learn the rope. Will the ELO feed the 6k team to the bellies of the 18k team or just assign them to 5 6k-ish solo bodies in the queue?
Also, on the 500 gs "bot" issue. Having 500 gs doesn't automatically put the word "bot" on a player's forehead. There are heaps of aimbots, particularly the melees who never miss a swing.
Matchmaking works well between 6pm and 9pm (GMT) at other times i can win 10-20 times in row and lose 1.6-3.2 score points. It is not my fault thats i have to fight against weaker players.
Why win against weaker players should decrease my rank?
It is a stupid system! Think about it...
When someone is number one (has the highest ELO rating?) he can only lose his rank or... stop playing this game?
This should be changed in mod 4.
We can't have any impact on whether we'll get high ranked enemies or low ones. Players should not be punished for what they can't exert.
Also no matter what you say, there's no excuse for losing rank when winning. Luckily idc too much about pvp but the ladder just means nothing and is one of the worst matchmaking systems I've seen. Then again I expected too much from this game.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
I agree with others, most likely a bot, or maybe someone that is rebelling and knows that is going to really urk someone.
I think we have discovered that the PVP player base is not up to the standards of an ELO system. I hear it works but its set up to allow for fast queues, ergo if not enough people of the appropriate rating are on then you get whatever is available. At times i'm ok with this, since well its like opening a dungeon chest, sometimes I get what I want, sometimes I don't.
I'm a mathematician, and the problem tickled my mind, I wondering if you are allowed to tell me (I know information about proprietary code is very hard to clear with the bosses for even generalized release of information about it) if the tracking system for the matchmaking code has a lowish hard cap on the number data points it can hold per character before passing the information to the algorithm (software capped), or is the variable cap one of the practicality of processing power (hardware capped)?
If they would be placed evenly then it would be much better.
Your answer is NO it does NOT work. and anyone who disagrees is oblivious to any facts.
This is False, The ELO system in NW, has no real value, Believe me.... Queing with 5/5 18K GS players (top 10 pages) and we go against 5/5 8-10K players.,.... No im sorry but there is no value or math or method to how the Leaderboard/ELO works in Neverwinter, Along with many other problems in PvP. HR's are OP obviously.... Best class in the game Currently, Heavily Broken, and WAY more powerful then GWF's.
But ya ELO system has no math or method behind it, If u get lucky and u get matched with equal players, sure....you might have a chance to move up a few spots.....
The Problem is...You never get matched into a Feasible match...... lmao what a joke.... Mod 3 was the biggest Fail in Neverwinter's history imo.
In addition, when you win against someone significantly lower than you, you'll actually drop in rank (sometimes significantly).
The entire Leaderboard concept is a terrible idea. I say get rid of it. PVP was so much more enjoyable when everyone wasn't so concerned about their ranking.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
That is actually pretty sensible and I agree. was in a match this morning with my CW , where I was 12 and 0 and I was fighting myself 2-3 at a time.. again on my CW.. flip a switch next match, my 15k with a 16k gf and then nothing, 7 and 8 kers for the other two.. where the other team completely trounced them over and over. So instead of putting one 7k gs on each team, I do not know why they seem to stack one team with the majority of them vs the other.
No. We are not.