There's a certain truth to often-said, and I quote, "Trickster Rogues can't survive top-end PvP outside of being permastealth." So us, combat rogues have to make do with adorableness (excuse me) Hit Points.
I think "Top End" PvP means you can actually survive against people like Rageface, Steamroller, Krass, Sicarius, etc...
I wouldn't go as far as putting your TR in that category, yet.
Even with 50k HP.
but keep up the work with building. Don't see to many others doing builds these days.
Yeah, id like to see premade vid preferably (or at least vid against a PvP guild). I'm not completely sold on it yet, but it is interesting. Top End vs being the best are two different things though...
rustlord You must have posted your stats with campfire buff on, I am testing this build out and wanted to get an exact stat roll LOL trying 13STR, 13 con, 17 dex, 11 int, 11 wis, and 17 cha was impossible so I looked over the numbers and decided it must be a campfire buff. so took the numbers and subtracted the campfire buff and I got the roll almost immediately lol
thought i might share this in case someone else was trying to figure out the stat roll.
its a great looking build Im looking forward to feelng it out seeing how it works in pvp pugging LOL.
12 STR
12 con
16 Dex
10 int
10 wis
16 char
in case anyone can't do math lol or doesn't understand how campfire works lol
rustlord You must have posted your stats with campfire buff on, I am testing this build out and wanted to get an exact stat roll LOL trying 13STR, 13 con, 17 dex, 11 int, 11 wis, and 17 cha was impossible so I looked over the numbers and decided it must be a campfire buff. so took the numbers and subtracted the campfire buff and I got the roll almost immediately lol
thought i might share this in case someone else was trying to figure out the stat roll.
its a great looking build Im looking forward to feelng it out seeing how it works in pvp pugging LOL.
12 STR
12 con
16 Dex
10 int
10 wis
16 char (Yes that's my initial rolls.)
I'm an extremist. Love roasting marshmallows over the fire ;P
I am curious though, how difficult is it to maintain using full BI for PvP? How much grinding/waiting is involved? My interest in a build like this is returning again...
I am curious though, how difficult is it to maintain using full BI for PvP? How much grinding/waiting is involved? My interest in a build like this is returning again...
Hi, if you mean the black ice consumption, it doesn't run out too fast. I recharge my gear to full maybe once a week, maybe twice a week if I PvP a lot more than usual. I have 2 blue cryomancer producing about 1-3K ice per day. I sometimes forget to do professions, but I'm able to keep a decent stash of black ice. The overload enchantments are cheap on AH and are more worth buying than crafting. Mining black ice nodes isnt much of a grind either. Give it 15-30 minutes you'll have enough raw ice to last a few days of crafting.
(update: 7/10/2014)
Lots of updates today adding a more damage-focused setup for this build, after my latest mad science experiments these last two weeks.
I see the stats. I see the comments. I see the money invested.
I cry.
Watched the videos. You win 3v1s against perma, with leaving the node 50% of the time. Perma won points/ stopped points = win.
You know I did all the math and played against the best "deflect" -TRs.. They all die like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
They mostly have low armor penetration, so they just tickle. Cryptic didnt nerfed perma so far. They nerfed everything else so perma is his main playstyle and I know you dont believe in this but there is no alternative. Either your the pointholding, backcapping TR or your non-existant in a PvP match. And if you tell me that you win PvP matches singlehandedly.... If you go naked into Pug-PvP with only a mainhand and a weaponenchant you still win.
Its sad cause all the theorycraft and stuff is cool you did, really! It has flaws here and there and the idea is nowhere new. But you have to understand that against real PvP players, you have no chance. And against Pugs who die from 1 Lashing Blade.. it doesnt really matter what you build.
So okay if you like your build and have fun with it thats fine. But other players pick up on it, go this way on TR. Play randomly against premades. Get beaten horribly and blame the game or the "broken" classes or scream "P2W".
Nobody should overestimate this. Deflect is useless, when you get proned btw.. So M4 it might be a little stronger. But still "non-viable".
Especially if your connection is really bad and you cant even jump DF.
Deflect is a good defensive stats, but a TR is not a tank and could never compete in tankiness to other classes. His survivability comes from going Perma-build. Only that way you can build a healthy amount of offensive stats btw. If you want to be tanky and like healing play DC or GWF.
I know a lotta people will flame me now, cause they say this is a good build and its rude to make it bad.
I just give my opinion and im not raging. Im sad.
The tone of your comments undermine not only this build, but any alternative to PermaStealth. Please refrain from non-constructive opinions that has no specific relevance to matters involving "Combat TR".
This is the only time I will defend against direct attacks to me or any part of this thread. Kindly improve your manner of expression if you hope to be acknowledged constructively.
Rustlord's build isn't technically original. It's an adaptation of the original halfling/deflect build. That HAS proven to work ~ Rust is trying to take full advantage of BI Gear ~ Let's see what happens if he forgoes some of that defensive/deflect for something with more offense.
This is the kind of reasonable, constructive comment that I can reply to. Morenthar is right. My hopes for this build is to not simply be unkillable, that's what my HR and GWF are for. This build is the inheritor of now-gone PvP Striker that dealt damage and survived by deflect. It was a first step to obtain a competitive non-stealth build. The next is balancing defensive stats with desirable offensive margins.
Rust, I don't have the same build like yours, but i'm a survinving TR too. I always enjoy to see ppl focused on me, raging and trying to kill me. More funny imo than the perma-cheesy style. Theres many way to play, depending your playstyle. Rustlord is a perfect example of someone who try something different and who try to share another POV to people. Good job Rust !!
There are other builds besides Perma Stealth that are options but None are viable ~ Maybe my definition and Brandon's definition of High End are different.
In one respect, I agree with you: our definitions are different. So let's agree to disagree. My view of high end is the top 10 pages out of 3000, where the matches are more challenging and random on solo queue. You may say that the Leaderboards mean little because of how unfairly it scores us sometimes--I know the feeling. But it's the fact that I can to work my way back to pages 5-10 easily after a few mismatched rounds that convinces me this build works.
I will be first to say that I'm averagely skilled, have horrible ping, and can't afford all Rank 10 enchantments. I give this build credit for making up where I am lacking.
Rust, I don't have the same build like yours, but i'm a survinving TR too. I always enjoy to see ppl focused on me, raging and trying to kill me. More funny imo than the perma-cheesy style. Theres many way to play, depending your playstyle. Rustlord is a perfect example of someone who try something different and who try to share another POV to people. Good job Rust !!
Thanks! You understand me well. When Tenacity was first introduced in Preview, I shared many player's belief that this change will destroy diversity in our class, pushing us all to be PermaStealth. I only strive now to get us out of this hell hole. There can be no half measures, something else has to work in 'high end' or it's a dead class when the nerf bat hits Stealth this August.
In one respect, I agree with you: our definitions are different. So let's agree to disagree. My view of high end is the top 10 pages out of 3000, where the matches are more challenging and random on solo queue. You may say that the Leaderboards mean little because of how unfairly it scores us sometimes--I know the feeling. But it's the fact that I can to work my way back to pages 5-10 easily after a few mismatched rounds that convinces me this build works.
I will be first to say that I'm averagely skilled, have horrible ping, and can't afford all Rank 10 enchantments. I give this build credit for making up where I am lacking.
Thanks! You understand me well. When Tenacity was first introduced in Preview, I shared many player's belief that this change will destroy diversity in our class, pushing us all to be PermaStealth. I only strive now to get us out of this hell hole. There can be no half measures, something else has to work in 'high end' or it's a dead class when the nerf bat hits Stealth this August.
I'd hate to see a class die this way.
What changes are being made to rogue on this coming mod?
What changes are being made to rogue on this coming mod?
A Stealth rework is queued up for development sometime after Module 4 is released. A dev answered in a twitch stream before (I'm paraphrasing) that "PermaStealth will still be there but ~ it will be more difficult ~ take more skill to do" possibly draining Stealth when attacking or revealing the TR's location.
A Stealth rework is queued up for development sometime after Module 4 is released. A dev answered in a twitch stream before (I'm paraphrasing) that "PermaStealth will still be there but ~ it will be more difficult ~ take more skill to do" possibly draining Stealth when attacking or revealing the TR's location.
The sooner they nerf perma stealth the better....I would rather see the whole class nerfed out of existence than have to put up with perma gheys in Dom. Having said that come Mod 4 if the situation is still not addressed then I will have to become a perma ghey myself. As has already been said a number of times there is NO viable option at present other than Perma ghey, when you encounter high end pvp groups as a combat/deflect TR you are pretty useless .....so I imagine Mod 4 will result in me 'Coming Out' as a perma ghey
The sooner they nerf perma stealth the better....I would rather see the whole class nerfed out of existence than have to put up with perma gheys in Dom.
A Stealth rework is queued up for development sometime after Module 4 is released. A dev answered in a twitch stream before (I'm paraphrasing) that "PermaStealth will still be there but ~ it will be more difficult ~ take more skill to do" possibly draining Stealth when attacking or revealing the TR's location.
If they had any real intention to address the issue of perma stealth then wouldn't they have done this already?
LOL true.....I will have to respec perma myself soon, if you can't beat them.....
These sentences always make me laugh a bit..
You think you just need shadow strike and bns to be successful in pvp? Gogo the more of you will try the more of you will understand that it s not so easy win the whole thing.
They are not going to nerf stealth..after 1 year and half. They want it to work like this.
Alternative pvp build is like going 180 km/h with a yamaha without helmet in a city street: crazy but someone can like and i dont blame them until i can watch them. I woul not like to be their groopie tho xD good job being alternative but let s continue to have a realistic point of view.
If they had any real intention to address the issue of perma stealth then wouldn't they have done this already?
They wanted to get TR changes for this mod, but due to having a set release date, they got pushed back till after mod 4. We can expect changes post mod 4 or mod 5 to TR, and can assume stealth will be affected because of what they said with testing possible changes as rust mentioned.
well, first i'd like to say that I for one really looked forward to testing this build. but after hours of trying for the gloves drop and failing, i eventually just gave up on the whole thing (and i currently perma with great success... even against full BI geared players).
to me the key to being a successful PVP rogue is mastering DF, as simple as that. (of course there's mastering the perma rotation, but that's easier i think and something that you just get eventually)
About the Stealth nerf/rework... they really don't need to do anything if you think about it. if the mod4 gear is (a little more than slightly) better than BI gear, which probably will... and its set-bonus does not give extra stealth time (like pvp sets or skulker...). then thats enough to kill perma-stealth.
It's hard enough fighting full-BI-geared players with profound set (harder than before), that with the mod4 equipment it simply won't be worth it. we will have to re-spec.
Don't forget about tenacity though. Unless there will be tenacity on any of the new gear.
Even if the new gear has 0 Tenacity. you can still get it elsewhere.
Let's say that we all agree that no one needs more than 1k tenacity, its just a waste.
Ring Set from PVP Campaign- (100 each + 450 set bonus) - 650 Tenacity
Dominator's Cloack (from pvp campaign) - 100 tenacity
any Profound Waist - 90+ tenacity
so with that alone, you have nearly 850 tenacity... which will add up to 19% pvp resistance. and perhaps if you're willing to use profound weapons for the extra tenacity, you'll get more than 1k.
point is - even if the mod4 gear has NO tenacity, if it's good (please god make it good) you can get your 1k tenacity (or near it, which is enough to be competitive pvper) from other places.
who knows, maybe they even introduced that new ring set because they know people will want to pvp with the new mod4 gear and it doesn't have tenacity... or maybe not.
Oooo... new gear has team buff. I hope that's the case for all classes. I had suggested classes provide class specific team buffs to make them attractive in dungeons previously. I wouldn't mind having armor sets targeted specifically for partying.
I see the overload slots too, I hope they don't have the ridiculous grind dailies repeatedly for fuel to recharge the gear to t2/t3 stats as well.
Props on the latest vid. Must've missed you posting it. I actually fought a few extremely tough BI rogues today. I'm now working towards a stealth BI build. Your idea of going scoundrel with BI is interesting to me because I'm planning to go corrupt overload enchants and have DC artifact on primary (with vorpal ofc). However, it would cause me to lose stealth capability from dazzling blades or nimble dodge, which I probably wouldn't be willing to do unless the AP gain is absolutely incredible when maximizing its potential, enough to lose possible point holding capability for it. I'm starting to feel now a stealth based BI build will be the way to go. Next mod we will have much more "anti-stealth" possibilities to worry about. Ultimately though, stealth is still the key for node control when outnumbered. It is the possibility to take 0 dmg versus needing to tank damage, but we will have to rely on it even less next mod with the coming changes. Against people who know what they are doing, it already has its limitations for maintaining stealth uptime, but can still be effective through its duration.
I'm starting to believe BI setups may have been the way to go for rogues, but were just overlooked + not used because people were too concerned about the stealth loss. There is still plenty of room to be stealthy utilizing BI gear though...
EDIT: Also though, something that has always bothered me a little... why don't you keep your regen higher? Like around 1.7k? Even high end PvP CWs I see still take regen up to around this amount. Maybe its just me, but on any PvP character I've ever played, getting that regen to around that amount is always pretty much the top priority, then followed by stacking other stats. (HP primarily). Since your HP is getting so high in OPvP, perhaps its not as necessary, but for domination I'd think it would be crucial. Even with numbers I run I still debate whether to add 1,200 hp or keep regen at +300 while the regen sits at 1700 already because the numbers still work out nice for regen, especially with how long rogues survive. (Then again, less of a stealth based build, but still fantastic survivability.)
I can't imagine the HP bonus from the greater rings of health are providing more survivability benefit than adding more regen with preservation rings.
Props on the latest vid. Must've missed you posting it. I actually fought a few extremely tough BI rogues today. I'm now working towards a stealth BI build. Your idea of going scoundrel with BI is interesting to me because I'm planning to go corrupt overload enchants and have DC artifact on primary (with vorpal ofc). However, it would cause me to lose stealth capability from dazzling blades or nimble dodge, which I probably wouldn't be willing to do unless the AP gain is absolutely incredible when maximizing its potential, enough to lose possible point holding capability for it. I'm starting to feel now a stealth based BI build will be the way to go. Next mod we will have much more "anti-stealth" possibilities to worry about. Ultimately though, stealth is still the key for node control when outnumbered. It is the possibility to take 0 dmg versus needing to tank damage, but we will have to rely on it even less next mod with the coming changes. Against people who know what they are doing, it already has its limitations for maintaining stealth uptime, but can still be effective through its duration.
I'm starting to believe BI setups may have been the way to go for rogues, but were just overlooked + not used because people were too concerned about the stealth loss. There is still plenty of room to be stealthy utilizing BI gear though...
EDIT: Also though, something that has always bothered me a little... why don't you keep your regen higher? Like around 1.7k? Even high end PvP CWs I see still take regen up to around this amount. Maybe its just me, but on any PvP character I've ever played, getting that regen to around that amount is always pretty much the top priority, then followed by stacking other stats. (HP primarily). Since your HP is getting so high in OPvP, perhaps its not as necessary, but for domination I'd think it would be crucial. Even with numbers I run I still debate whether to add 1,200 hp or keep regen at +300 while the regen sits at 1700 already because the numbers still work out nice for regen, especially with how long rogues survive. (Then again, less of a stealth based build, but still fantastic survivability.)
I can't imagine the HP bonus from the greater rings of health are providing more survivability benefit than adding more regen with preservation rings.
You're correct about regen. That's just my OCD making me go for the absolute-40k hp no-questions-asked, but I could stack regen to at least 1400 with Rings of Preservation. I'm waiting for the reroll token next module to bring my numbers more in line. ^^
I've seen a vid of Taranduil (sorry if I mispelled your name) against Dinter where he was wearing BI gear using a semi-perma load out. It was impressive. I may not be too far from achieving that myself, with 5/5 stealth heroic feat, since my race is human, I could spare the extra points. I don't have much on INT, but the recovery is decent. It's been interesting playing half the time in stealth, and going out of stealth to facetank some damage. Your enemies think your an easy target.
I wonder if the trend is ever going back to Vorpal, or post module 4 Bilethorn is still gonna be the first choice. Any case it doesn't hurt me to still have both. Since the Warlock is becoming less and less appealing to me, who knows I might still be playing a TR in august.
First of all, great guide, very detailed and organized.
I have many thoughts on this and I'm going to try to present them as concisely and logically as I can.
My first impression upon seeing the stat composition was - lacks punch. 16k GS, a bit over 5k offense, a bit over 10k defense. Indeed, upon encountering reflect TRs I found them to be quite tough to kill but really lacking in punch.
I wouldn't say that it's a bad build or that the perma-stealth high offense is superior but I am seeing trade offs, significant ones.
First of all the toughness is great, and I can believe 2v1 or 3v1 in a pug match. Versatility in encounter/at will load out is also very good. Overall I'd say the build is very beginner friendly and also likely to result in a better performance for your average player or if you have ping or lag. I would say the same thing of WK perma. But this is more ambitious and more comprehensive.
However I am seeing the following drawbacks.
#1 Loss of speed, mobility and invisibility make DF pretty much canned for this build, and the effectiveness of DF in Tracking, CC immunity, burst, and overall damage cannot be denied.
#2 Permastealth can play hide n seek with the entire opposing team, and if your good enough even score kills and and deny them the node in the process. The risk here being that if the permastealther gets caught for even an instant they are dog food. I highly doubt a reflect TR is going live or do anything but escape from a 5v1 situation, and only if he has lurkers at the ready.
#3 Success of a reflect TR or WK perma owes a lot to the pvp community being unfamiliar with them and not knowing how to counter them. If these builds become common and their weaknesses well known would they still perform with the same amount of success? A flurry using perma/semiperma MI has withstood this test of time.
#4 A reflect Tr offers many of the advantages of other tanky classes or builds without all the benefits. In comparison, the permastealth TR has something to offer which no other class/build can claim.
I would say that TR is severely underpowered in pvp when you compare their defense/cc/damage. I mean we are a melee class for the most part and have virtually no stuns or prones that would allow us to follow up after connecting. Stealth as a mechanic is not over powered with regards to combat, it never has been. The difference between stealth and other class mechanics is that skill rewards, to a sometimes astonishing degree. How a rogue uses stealth in combat is only limited by his craftyness, his ability to anticipate his opponent, and his ability to get his kicks in when they count while avoiding retribution when it counts. Compare that to GF block which has severe and well-known limitations, such as facing a CW who uses repel + ROF, or a GWF using sprint + takedown, or a rogue using bile + flurry....... Meanwhile, stealth + flurry can take a rogue as far as his skill will let him go. The only exceptions to this being a GWF that has roar and knows how to use it, a deflect healing HR, a BIS DC with a defensive build.
The real problem with stealth is that in terms of node contesting it is far too powerful. Virtually anyone can make a rogue, spec for stealth and keep the rotation going 80% of the time. This in turn can force a much better player to be tied to a node just to make sure their team is getting the points.
Some effective fixes for stealth in node control would be increasing detection range, making shadow strike melee range only, having a rogue take 50% healing while stealthed, to name a few.
Comments
Yeah, id like to see premade vid preferably (or at least vid against a PvP guild). I'm not completely sold on it yet, but it is interesting. Top End vs being the best are two different things though...
thought i might share this in case someone else was trying to figure out the stat roll.
its a great looking build Im looking forward to feelng it out seeing how it works in pvp pugging LOL.
12 STR
12 con
16 Dex
10 int
10 wis
16 char
in case anyone can't do math lol or doesn't understand how campfire works lol
~Vladimar Zul - Fury build SW ~
~Takadump onzcrapper - Iron vangaurd GF~
I'm an extremist. Love roasting marshmallows over the fire ;P
Hi, if you mean the black ice consumption, it doesn't run out too fast. I recharge my gear to full maybe once a week, maybe twice a week if I PvP a lot more than usual. I have 2 blue cryomancer producing about 1-3K ice per day. I sometimes forget to do professions, but I'm able to keep a decent stash of black ice. The overload enchantments are cheap on AH and are more worth buying than crafting. Mining black ice nodes isnt much of a grind either. Give it 15-30 minutes you'll have enough raw ice to last a few days of crafting.
(update: 7/10/2014)
Lots of updates today adding a more damage-focused setup for this build, after my latest mad science experiments these last two weeks.
I cry.
Watched the videos. You win 3v1s against perma, with leaving the node 50% of the time. Perma won points/ stopped points = win.
You know I did all the math and played against the best "deflect" -TRs.. They all die like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
They mostly have low armor penetration, so they just tickle. Cryptic didnt nerfed perma so far. They nerfed everything else so perma is his main playstyle and I know you dont believe in this but there is no alternative. Either your the pointholding, backcapping TR or your non-existant in a PvP match. And if you tell me that you win PvP matches singlehandedly.... If you go naked into Pug-PvP with only a mainhand and a weaponenchant you still win.
Its sad cause all the theorycraft and stuff is cool you did, really! It has flaws here and there and the idea is nowhere new. But you have to understand that against real PvP players, you have no chance. And against Pugs who die from 1 Lashing Blade.. it doesnt really matter what you build.
So okay if you like your build and have fun with it thats fine. But other players pick up on it, go this way on TR. Play randomly against premades. Get beaten horribly and blame the game or the "broken" classes or scream "P2W".
Nobody should overestimate this. Deflect is useless, when you get proned btw.. So M4 it might be a little stronger. But still "non-viable".
Especially if your connection is really bad and you cant even jump DF.
Deflect is a good defensive stats, but a TR is not a tank and could never compete in tankiness to other classes. His survivability comes from going Perma-build. Only that way you can build a healthy amount of offensive stats btw. If you want to be tanky and like healing play DC or GWF.
I know a lotta people will flame me now, cause they say this is a good build and its rude to make it bad.
I just give my opinion and im not raging. Im sad.
The tone of your comments undermine not only this build, but any alternative to PermaStealth. Please refrain from non-constructive opinions that has no specific relevance to matters involving "Combat TR".
This is the only time I will defend against direct attacks to me or any part of this thread. Kindly improve your manner of expression if you hope to be acknowledged constructively.
This is the kind of reasonable, constructive comment that I can reply to. Morenthar is right. My hopes for this build is to not simply be unkillable, that's what my HR and GWF are for. This build is the inheritor of now-gone PvP Striker that dealt damage and survived by deflect. It was a first step to obtain a competitive non-stealth build. The next is balancing defensive stats with desirable offensive margins.
In one respect, I agree with you: our definitions are different. So let's agree to disagree. My view of high end is the top 10 pages out of 3000, where the matches are more challenging and random on solo queue. You may say that the Leaderboards mean little because of how unfairly it scores us sometimes--I know the feeling. But it's the fact that I can to work my way back to pages 5-10 easily after a few mismatched rounds that convinces me this build works.
I will be first to say that I'm averagely skilled, have horrible ping, and can't afford all Rank 10 enchantments. I give this build credit for making up where I am lacking.
Thanks! You understand me well. When Tenacity was first introduced in Preview, I shared many player's belief that this change will destroy diversity in our class, pushing us all to be PermaStealth. I only strive now to get us out of this hell hole. There can be no half measures, something else has to work in 'high end' or it's a dead class when the nerf bat hits Stealth this August.
I'd hate to see a class die this way.
What changes are being made to rogue on this coming mod?
A Stealth rework is queued up for development sometime after Module 4 is released. A dev answered in a twitch stream before (I'm paraphrasing) that "PermaStealth will still be there but ~ it will be more difficult ~ take more skill to do" possibly draining Stealth when attacking or revealing the TR's location.
The sooner they nerf perma stealth the better....I would rather see the whole class nerfed out of existence than have to put up with perma gheys in Dom. Having said that come Mod 4 if the situation is still not addressed then I will have to become a perma ghey myself. As has already been said a number of times there is NO viable option at present other than Perma ghey, when you encounter high end pvp groups as a combat/deflect TR you are pretty useless .....so I imagine Mod 4 will result in me 'Coming Out' as a perma ghey
then you have to put up with yourself lol
LOL true.....I will have to respec perma myself soon, if you can't beat them.....
If they had any real intention to address the issue of perma stealth then wouldn't they have done this already?
These sentences always make me laugh a bit..
You think you just need shadow strike and bns to be successful in pvp? Gogo the more of you will try the more of you will understand that it s not so easy win the whole thing.
They are not going to nerf stealth..after 1 year and half. They want it to work like this.
Alternative pvp build is like going 180 km/h with a yamaha without helmet in a city street: crazy but someone can like and i dont blame them until i can watch them. I woul not like to be their groopie tho xD good job being alternative but let s continue to have a realistic point of view.
its very far from easy mod op
They wanted to get TR changes for this mod, but due to having a set release date, they got pushed back till after mod 4. We can expect changes post mod 4 or mod 5 to TR, and can assume stealth will be affected because of what they said with testing possible changes as rust mentioned.
to me the key to being a successful PVP rogue is mastering DF, as simple as that. (of course there's mastering the perma rotation, but that's easier i think and something that you just get eventually)
About the Stealth nerf/rework... they really don't need to do anything if you think about it. if the mod4 gear is (a little more than slightly) better than BI gear, which probably will... and its set-bonus does not give extra stealth time (like pvp sets or skulker...). then thats enough to kill perma-stealth.
It's hard enough fighting full-BI-geared players with profound set (harder than before), that with the mod4 equipment it simply won't be worth it. we will have to re-spec.
Even if the new gear has 0 Tenacity. you can still get it elsewhere.
Let's say that we all agree that no one needs more than 1k tenacity, its just a waste.
Ring Set from PVP Campaign- (100 each + 450 set bonus) - 650 Tenacity
Dominator's Cloack (from pvp campaign) - 100 tenacity
any Profound Waist - 90+ tenacity
so with that alone, you have nearly 850 tenacity... which will add up to 19% pvp resistance. and perhaps if you're willing to use profound weapons for the extra tenacity, you'll get more than 1k.
point is - even if the mod4 gear has NO tenacity, if it's good (please god make it good) you can get your 1k tenacity (or near it, which is enough to be competitive pvper) from other places.
who knows, maybe they even introduced that new ring set because they know people will want to pvp with the new mod4 gear and it doesn't have tenacity... or maybe not.
new gear has NO tenacity
http://maxsula.imgur.com/
I see the overload slots too, I hope they don't have the ridiculous grind dailies repeatedly for fuel to recharge the gear to t2/t3 stats as well.
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
I'm starting to believe BI setups may have been the way to go for rogues, but were just overlooked + not used because people were too concerned about the stealth loss. There is still plenty of room to be stealthy utilizing BI gear though...
EDIT: Also though, something that has always bothered me a little... why don't you keep your regen higher? Like around 1.7k? Even high end PvP CWs I see still take regen up to around this amount. Maybe its just me, but on any PvP character I've ever played, getting that regen to around that amount is always pretty much the top priority, then followed by stacking other stats. (HP primarily). Since your HP is getting so high in OPvP, perhaps its not as necessary, but for domination I'd think it would be crucial. Even with numbers I run I still debate whether to add 1,200 hp or keep regen at +300 while the regen sits at 1700 already because the numbers still work out nice for regen, especially with how long rogues survive. (Then again, less of a stealth based build, but still fantastic survivability.)
I can't imagine the HP bonus from the greater rings of health are providing more survivability benefit than adding more regen with preservation rings.
You're correct about regen. That's just my OCD making me go for the absolute-40k hp no-questions-asked, but I could stack regen to at least 1400 with Rings of Preservation. I'm waiting for the reroll token next module to bring my numbers more in line. ^^
I've seen a vid of Taranduil (sorry if I mispelled your name) against Dinter where he was wearing BI gear using a semi-perma load out. It was impressive. I may not be too far from achieving that myself, with 5/5 stealth heroic feat, since my race is human, I could spare the extra points. I don't have much on INT, but the recovery is decent. It's been interesting playing half the time in stealth, and going out of stealth to facetank some damage. Your enemies think your an easy target.
I wonder if the trend is ever going back to Vorpal, or post module 4 Bilethorn is still gonna be the first choice. Any case it doesn't hurt me to still have both. Since the Warlock is becoming less and less appealing to me, who knows I might still be playing a TR in august.
I have many thoughts on this and I'm going to try to present them as concisely and logically as I can.
My first impression upon seeing the stat composition was - lacks punch. 16k GS, a bit over 5k offense, a bit over 10k defense. Indeed, upon encountering reflect TRs I found them to be quite tough to kill but really lacking in punch.
I wouldn't say that it's a bad build or that the perma-stealth high offense is superior but I am seeing trade offs, significant ones.
First of all the toughness is great, and I can believe 2v1 or 3v1 in a pug match. Versatility in encounter/at will load out is also very good. Overall I'd say the build is very beginner friendly and also likely to result in a better performance for your average player or if you have ping or lag. I would say the same thing of WK perma. But this is more ambitious and more comprehensive.
However I am seeing the following drawbacks.
#1 Loss of speed, mobility and invisibility make DF pretty much canned for this build, and the effectiveness of DF in Tracking, CC immunity, burst, and overall damage cannot be denied.
#2 Permastealth can play hide n seek with the entire opposing team, and if your good enough even score kills and and deny them the node in the process. The risk here being that if the permastealther gets caught for even an instant they are dog food. I highly doubt a reflect TR is going live or do anything but escape from a 5v1 situation, and only if he has lurkers at the ready.
#3 Success of a reflect TR or WK perma owes a lot to the pvp community being unfamiliar with them and not knowing how to counter them. If these builds become common and their weaknesses well known would they still perform with the same amount of success? A flurry using perma/semiperma MI has withstood this test of time.
#4 A reflect Tr offers many of the advantages of other tanky classes or builds without all the benefits. In comparison, the permastealth TR has something to offer which no other class/build can claim.
I would say that TR is severely underpowered in pvp when you compare their defense/cc/damage. I mean we are a melee class for the most part and have virtually no stuns or prones that would allow us to follow up after connecting. Stealth as a mechanic is not over powered with regards to combat, it never has been. The difference between stealth and other class mechanics is that skill rewards, to a sometimes astonishing degree. How a rogue uses stealth in combat is only limited by his craftyness, his ability to anticipate his opponent, and his ability to get his kicks in when they count while avoiding retribution when it counts. Compare that to GF block which has severe and well-known limitations, such as facing a CW who uses repel + ROF, or a GWF using sprint + takedown, or a rogue using bile + flurry....... Meanwhile, stealth + flurry can take a rogue as far as his skill will let him go. The only exceptions to this being a GWF that has roar and knows how to use it, a deflect healing HR, a BIS DC with a defensive build.
The real problem with stealth is that in terms of node contesting it is far too powerful. Virtually anyone can make a rogue, spec for stealth and keep the rotation going 80% of the time. This in turn can force a much better player to be tied to a node just to make sure their team is getting the points.
Some effective fixes for stealth in node control would be increasing detection range, making shadow strike melee range only, having a rogue take 50% healing while stealthed, to name a few.