But there are a couple important differences in Star Trek:
1. there's a lot more really useful stuff to spend Dilithium (their version of AD) on.... like crafting top-end gear from reputations, and upgrading your Fleet's (Guild's) starbase
2. the auction house runs on Credits (gold), not Dilithium. So the only way to get Dil is to exchange zen for it, or refine it (8k max per day) - even the Dil you get from lockboxes is unrefined.... instead of getting an item that hands you 40k AD, you get 6-10 "mine claims" that you can use once per day to get 5k unrefined Dil.
I think they designed the system poorly compared to the STO one that guarantees more stability.
In STO you can buy a lot of things with credits/gold (the "AH" there is in credits/gold).
You can also buy a lot of (especially end game) things with "AD" (dilithium) there, but dilithium supply is heavily controlled. You can't trade it, you get it with dailies and "professions" (duty jobs), that makes every player gain dilithium at a steady rate but you can't get insanely rich from trading it. But also, you don't really *need* a lot of dilithium for your normal character progression.
As a practical example, in 2 years of playing STO mostly for free, putting some $5-10 occasionally, I could afford several nice things (mostly ships and extra character services, like bank space and stuff) from the zen market but I was never exaggerately rich, while in less than 6 months of "playing the AH" on NW I have the equivalent in AD of over 50k ZEN at a 500AD per Zen ratio, and I have invested no more than $40 (4k Zen) in the game over the last year.
This cannot be fixed easily... you'd need:
1st) more control over AD supply (possibly shutting down the current AH and converting it into "gold" AH)
2nd) some more practical use for medium amounts of AD (in the 100-200k range, that is a week or two of refining) rather than reasoning in terms of milions of AD (i.e. current mount and companion upgrade prices), since players won't get that much AD anymore.
3rd) more uses for gold (that is currently pretty much useless, you can buy just potions and kits, and some minor profession resources/assets)
But it isn't easily feasible. It's a huge overhaul of the economic system that requires accurate tuning of prices for every purchasable item that is currently sold in Gold, AD or ZEN.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Right now the turn around time is greater than 24 hours. As far as I know, that's a record. All orders since Module 3 have been filled within about 18 hours. I purchase around 25,000 ZEN per week from the ZAX.
I put in an order for 10,000 ZEN last night and it has yet to be filled. Most likely it will be filled overnight. Personally, I don't mind waiting a day or two (or three or four). It just means I put in larger orders earlier.
Ideally, Cryptic needs another AD dump to balance out the market. However, they're in a great place right now from a business standpoint: You either get your ZEN now by paying for it, or you wait and get ZEN later. If I were Cryptic, I wouldn't change a thing.
If the ZAX continues as is, eventually it will be so far backordered that people will have to wait months to buy Zen with AD. A lot of it comes from the inflation of AD and a lot of it comes from the fact that we are finally seeing some items sell for more on the AH than they cost in the Zen shop when compared to each other at the 500:1 ratio.
It's a problem that builds on itself, because once items become cheaper to buy in the Zen shop than the AH, Zen becomes even more valuable and will become even more backordered in the ZAX, further increasing the price of those items on the AH and the cycle continues.
If the ZAX get backordered enough, it just means people will have to pay cash for things like mounts and account services, the other store items will still be for sale on the AH for at prices that exceed the 500:1 exchange rate cap.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited June 2014
The 500 cap is pointless for paying players.
People who are buying Zen are bypassing it by selling Enchanted Keys on AH instead.
This doesn't even protect from inflation, as the price of the new "currency" (Enchanted Keys) can still grow and grow up to infinite.
What will happen is that the AD/ZEN exchange feature will cease to exist in fact as no one in their right mind will sell Zen for 500 AD or less.
The problem is for those f2p players who want to buy Zen with AD and they no longer have the option to do so.
If they want to get the exchange values back in the 500 (or less) region, they need to make AD a more demanded (useful) currency compared to Zens.
One problem is that certain AD "options" are inferior in every way to their "Zen" counterpart.
For example, it's always better to buy a purple companion with Zen than spend the absurd amount of AD to upgrade white or green companions you find elsewhere.
The same goes for mounts.
This is because certain AD prices are so stupid that no one in their right mind will bother with those options, unless of course, you are a buying Zens and selling them for way over 500 AD each (like it's happening now with Enchanted Keys)
Bottom Line: AD and Zen options need to be re-calibrated. Consider lowering the AD price of companion and mount upgrades for starters. Same goes for those ridiculous blue sets that cost millions of AD. And don't give the me the "look" excuse. There are many others options that are 100 to 1000 times cheaper and probably look even better to boot!
It may also help to add more options to the Wondrous Bazaar, like Bags, Tarmalune Trade Bars that can be bought with Astral Diamonds.
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
edited June 2014
Rise the cap to protect the F2P players? Really? The prices will just grow, and grow, and grow if they rise the cap, then that cap will be reached and you will cry out for another rise of the cap. The cap is fine where it it. This kind of quick fix will not solve anything. It will just alienate the casual and the new players, especially if they are F2P.
The problem is in the value of AD, or lack of value rather. We need to have items and services to spend our AD on in game. PW/Cryptic are trying to shift all the attention of the players to the Zen Market so everyone wants Zen right now. Zen does not need to cost more AD. On the contrary, it needs to cost less AD, but this should be regulated by supply and demand. This can be done by making desirable AD sinks with reasonable fees.
Here's a crazy idea: instead of adding yet another Lockbox with M4, how about PW/Cryptic would add a Lockbox or two that you can buy with AD. It could cost 150k-500k AD, depending on the items inside, and it should have in it items that the players want, items of reasonable value, with a small chance to win a very good prize. Consumable items are always a good idea, things that you would need over and over again - Marks, Refine Stones, Dyes and Dye Remover (crazy, I know), maybe some powerful buff potions that come in stacks of 20. It should not contain AD (it seems obvious, but trust me, PW/Cryptic tend to miss the obvious a lot when it comes to this game). Everything should be bound on pickup, to account or to character - preferably to account.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
If the ZAX continues as is, eventually it will be so far backordered that people will have to wait months to buy Zen with AD. A lot of it comes from the inflation of AD and a lot of it comes from the fact that we are finally seeing some items sell for more on the AH than they cost in the Zen shop when compared to each other at the 500:1 ratio.
It's a problem that builds on itself, because once items become cheaper to buy in the Zen shop than the AH, Zen becomes even more valuable and will become even more backordered in the ZAX, further increasing the price of those items on the AH and the cycle continues.
If the ZAX get backordered enough, it just means people will have to pay cash for things like mounts and account services, the other store items will still be for sale on the AH for at prices that exceed the 500:1 exchange rate cap.
A good point, there is a main balance to it and that it the 10% AH tax, on higher AH turn over and AD deflation, those 10% will sink much more.
Even now when people 'bypass' ZAX by buying keys and sell on AH there is 10% erased from circulation, what woud not have happened via ZAX directly
Also i think promotions like the egg one and others are meant to deflate AD.
Bottom line, imo, the cap is not an issue, but a symptom to AD value problem. Rising that cap wouldn't solve it, only make it worse as there will be less AD deflation and free players will have trouble to keep with the price.
The 500 cap is pointless for paying players.
People who are buying Zen are bypassing it by selling Enchanted Keys on AH instead.
The problem is for those f2p players who want to buy Zen with AD and now they have no option to do so.
About pointless i wrote above. About buying, as i'm mainly buy with AD i don't see why i can't do it, took few hours to fulfill my order and i got my ZEN.. and at 500 and not 700+
I have to believe allowing items to be bought with AD through vendor is the right approach. They tried the chicken egg which in fact worked, but was for a limited time and even if not would lose the novelty just by itself.
There seems to be two main reasons one would trade Zen for AD, (which I don't think is the problem anyway):
1. Customers have Zen change left over and want to make immediate use of it.
2. They want something that is available in AD.
I propose more AD sinks like:
->Bound<- Blood Ruby and other Refining stones priced the same as a 500 to 1 ratio of Zen ->Unbound<- ones
An entire services tab for AD
Lowered Spider mount and even more importantly Lowered mount training Books
More mounts in general to the AD market with character bound status->
(maybe even just past and low selling mounts usually only found on the Zen)
All previous fashion items with obvious mark up
Anything with poor sales already on the Zen Market
So on and so on...
If the items are bound, that will prevent the flooding of the AH/devaluing the Zen Market - and will quickly and regularly sink AD.
Modular design allows these changes to be made easily, don't let anyone fool you. The logic is already there from what has been previously coded....
You make a new instance of the existing window, fill it with the proper images - text - detailed window, then fill the delivery function with the appropriate cost/item and finally call the things birth/place in the Bazaar's function start. This is little more than copy and paste then replacing a few pertinent defines.
In other words... I would like to see the Wondrous Bazaar really more fit it's own name.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
About pointless i wrote above. About buying, as i'm mainly buy with AD i don't see why i can't do it, took few hours to fulfill my order and i got my ZEN.. and at 500 and not 700+
This works for the time being because the difference between the real value of Zen and the cap of 500 is not so much that certain persons may decide that the time saved (instant vs AH times) and the AH commissions (that partially erode your gains) may still make the AD/ZEN exchange worth something.
Of course this depends on personal preference, but the point is that if the real value of Zen will keep on growing to absurd levels, (let's say 4000 for example) the "sellers" of Zen on the AD/ZEN exchange will be less and less and what now are "hours" to get your ZEN will become days, weeks and eventually NEVER.
though this is a guess, but i think there were alot more new players coming in before, so the zen exchange was 250ad per (if i remember correctly). And items were also BoE so alot of new players couldnt resist buying zen to equip their toons. Lockboxes were also ALOT more desirable/used back then.
Now i just think theres less players, and less new ones. The ones who play actively know or grind enough to keep generate AD without having to buy zen.
This works for the time being because the difference between the real value of Zen and the cap of 500 is not so much that certain persons may decide that the time saved (instant vs AH times) and the AH commissions (that partially erode your gains) may still make the AD/ZEN exchange worth something.
Of course this depends on personal preference, but the point is that if the real value of Zen will keep on growing to absurd levels, (let's say 4000 for example) the "sellers" of Zen on the AD/ZEN exchange will be less and less and what now are "hours" to get your ZEN will become days, weeks and eventually NEVER.
Well, this rise you wrote is a speculation and, in my opinion, not realistic.
I wrote why it is already semi balanced in my post above. And the whole economy is 'overseen' so while a backlog of orders and close zen value to 500 is realistic a wild growth to 'NEVER' will not happen ( i also speculate and assume... i dont work at cryptic or anything but i assume they see the turnover rates and numbers and they set the cap at 500, so will sink to maintain it. And past experience shows that they do so [eggs example] ). Except the fact that people need to understand that ZEN can be bought just by listing a buy order and waiting a bit, i don't see any need to 'panic' or do anything, worse all those uninformed 'omg, there is no zen' cause greater buy orders that should be and increase the queue.
IF/ When it goes to more than a day or two of wait for queue and no solution in sight, then, perhaps, it's time to rise concern.
BTW, by looking at the backlog queue and timing the sale listing and the time it was fulfilled it is easy to deduct the ZEN to AD turnover rate. And it is not small.
So you think they are priced correctly at $10 per ward? I assume you didn't consider that and hence what the real solution would be to reduce the zen store prices.
I opened 5 coffers of wondrous augmentation this morning and got 2 Coalescent wards , have they increased the chance of coffers dropping them or was I just insanely lucky for once?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2014
I can only hope. It is my day of wonder as well, so I'll have 11 of them later. Coffers, I mean. Contents TBD.
Here's a crazy idea: instead of adding yet another Lockbox with M4, how about PW/Cryptic would add a Lockbox or two that you can buy with AD. It could cost 150k-500k AD, depending on the items inside, and it should have in it items that the players want, items of reasonable value, with a small chance to win a very good prize. Consumable items are always a good idea, things that you would need over and over again - Marks, Refine Stones, Dyes and Dye Remover (crazy, I know), maybe some powerful buff potions that come in stacks of 20. It should not contain AD (it seems obvious, but trust me, PW/Cryptic tend to miss the obvious a lot when it comes to this game). Everything should be bound on pickup, to account or to character - preferably to account.
So long as the generic winnings aren't things like potions of healing appropriate to your level! Or Peridots! Or rank 4 enchantments X3. I couldn't imagine paying even your lowest suggested price of 150k on a gamble like that, personally. But I do like this idea for an AD sink, plus the reductions for mount and companion upgrades.
Reasonable AD sinks have long been asked for in the game, that's for sure. And the idea of them works a lot better than mine, which is convincing people to withdraw their purchase requests from the ZAX as a stand against paying higher prices.
Yep, until a decent AD sink is in the game, the best way to get zen is to buy it with real currency. I'm sure Cryptic is happy right now.
I would think that you would be happy too. After all, the login isn't shutdown with a message stating that the game has been terminated due to lack of revenue.
While the game is F2P; it isn't exclusively F2P. MMOs like this require a revenue stream in order to deliver server uptime, and content development.
The entitlement is strong in this one.
Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I opened 5 coffers of wondrous augmentation this morning and got 2 Coalescent wards , have they increased the chance of coffers dropping them or was I just insanely lucky for once?
Hopefully they did since they are no longer tradable
And hopefully we will have some countermeasures against the AD inflation...
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Hence why the cap isn't too high, but the zen price is . For $10 I could get 500k ad, personally I think that's a little on the low side, yet 500k feels about right to get 1000 zen. That's why buying zen was never something that felt rewarding to me, yet by playing the game, I could buy stuff with a lot of work.
I opened 5 coffers of wondrous augmentation this morning and got 2 Coalescent wards , have they increased the chance of coffers dropping them or was I just insanely lucky for once?
I would think that you would be happy too. After all, the login isn't shutdown with a message stating that the game has been terminated due to lack of revenue.
While the game is F2P; it isn't exclusively F2P. MMOs like this require a revenue stream in order to deliver server uptime, and content development.
The entitlement is strong in this one.
Personally part of me would prefer if they did shut down. I'm not sure they deserve the revenue.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited June 2014
The ZAX backlog will keep on growing. Unless you absolutely need the AD right this very moment, instead of selling Zen at 500:1 rate you can buy Zen items and sell them much higher on the AH instead.
The ZAX backlog will keep on growing. Unless you absolutely need the AD right this very moment, instead of selling Zen at 500:1 rate you can buy Zen items and sell them much higher on the AH instead.
Comments
They're just trying to hack your account and/or credit card.
And even then, the 'Hacking' is due to people giving them the account credentials AND credit card info freely.
That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. What could be the harm in giving a hacker your credit card number?
I think they designed the system poorly compared to the STO one that guarantees more stability.
In STO you can buy a lot of things with credits/gold (the "AH" there is in credits/gold).
You can also buy a lot of (especially end game) things with "AD" (dilithium) there, but dilithium supply is heavily controlled. You can't trade it, you get it with dailies and "professions" (duty jobs), that makes every player gain dilithium at a steady rate but you can't get insanely rich from trading it. But also, you don't really *need* a lot of dilithium for your normal character progression.
As a practical example, in 2 years of playing STO mostly for free, putting some $5-10 occasionally, I could afford several nice things (mostly ships and extra character services, like bank space and stuff) from the zen market but I was never exaggerately rich, while in less than 6 months of "playing the AH" on NW I have the equivalent in AD of over 50k ZEN at a 500AD per Zen ratio, and I have invested no more than $40 (4k Zen) in the game over the last year.
This cannot be fixed easily... you'd need:
1st) more control over AD supply (possibly shutting down the current AH and converting it into "gold" AH)
2nd) some more practical use for medium amounts of AD (in the 100-200k range, that is a week or two of refining) rather than reasoning in terms of milions of AD (i.e. current mount and companion upgrade prices), since players won't get that much AD anymore.
3rd) more uses for gold (that is currently pretty much useless, you can buy just potions and kits, and some minor profession resources/assets)
But it isn't easily feasible. It's a huge overhaul of the economic system that requires accurate tuning of prices for every purchasable item that is currently sold in Gold, AD or ZEN.
Have you ever been on the phone with a customer service rep? Trying to get access to your account because you "lost" your password.
"Who am I talking with?"
"Can you give me the last 4 digits of the credit card used on this account?"
"And can you confirm the billing zip code?"
nice humblebrag
It's a problem that builds on itself, because once items become cheaper to buy in the Zen shop than the AH, Zen becomes even more valuable and will become even more backordered in the ZAX, further increasing the price of those items on the AH and the cycle continues.
If the ZAX get backordered enough, it just means people will have to pay cash for things like mounts and account services, the other store items will still be for sale on the AH for at prices that exceed the 500:1 exchange rate cap.
People who are buying Zen are bypassing it by selling Enchanted Keys on AH instead.
This doesn't even protect from inflation, as the price of the new "currency" (Enchanted Keys) can still grow and grow up to infinite.
What will happen is that the AD/ZEN exchange feature will cease to exist in fact as no one in their right mind will sell Zen for 500 AD or less.
The problem is for those f2p players who want to buy Zen with AD and they no longer have the option to do so.
If they want to get the exchange values back in the 500 (or less) region, they need to make AD a more demanded (useful) currency compared to Zens.
One problem is that certain AD "options" are inferior in every way to their "Zen" counterpart.
For example, it's always better to buy a purple companion with Zen than spend the absurd amount of AD to upgrade white or green companions you find elsewhere.
The same goes for mounts.
This is because certain AD prices are so stupid that no one in their right mind will bother with those options, unless of course, you are a buying Zens and selling them for way over 500 AD each (like it's happening now with Enchanted Keys)
Bottom Line: AD and Zen options need to be re-calibrated. Consider lowering the AD price of companion and mount upgrades for starters. Same goes for those ridiculous blue sets that cost millions of AD. And don't give the me the "look" excuse. There are many others options that are 100 to 1000 times cheaper and probably look even better to boot!
It may also help to add more options to the Wondrous Bazaar, like Bags, Tarmalune Trade Bars that can be bought with Astral Diamonds.
The problem is in the value of AD, or lack of value rather. We need to have items and services to spend our AD on in game. PW/Cryptic are trying to shift all the attention of the players to the Zen Market so everyone wants Zen right now. Zen does not need to cost more AD. On the contrary, it needs to cost less AD, but this should be regulated by supply and demand. This can be done by making desirable AD sinks with reasonable fees.
Here's a crazy idea: instead of adding yet another Lockbox with M4, how about PW/Cryptic would add a Lockbox or two that you can buy with AD. It could cost 150k-500k AD, depending on the items inside, and it should have in it items that the players want, items of reasonable value, with a small chance to win a very good prize. Consumable items are always a good idea, things that you would need over and over again - Marks, Refine Stones, Dyes and Dye Remover (crazy, I know), maybe some powerful buff potions that come in stacks of 20. It should not contain AD (it seems obvious, but trust me, PW/Cryptic tend to miss the obvious a lot when it comes to this game). Everything should be bound on pickup, to account or to character - preferably to account.
A good point, there is a main balance to it and that it the 10% AH tax, on higher AH turn over and AD deflation, those 10% will sink much more.
Even now when people 'bypass' ZAX by buying keys and sell on AH there is 10% erased from circulation, what woud not have happened via ZAX directly
Also i think promotions like the egg one and others are meant to deflate AD.
Bottom line, imo, the cap is not an issue, but a symptom to AD value problem. Rising that cap wouldn't solve it, only make it worse as there will be less AD deflation and free players will have trouble to keep with the price.
About pointless i wrote above. About buying, as i'm mainly buy with AD i don't see why i can't do it, took few hours to fulfill my order and i got my ZEN.. and at 500 and not 700+
There seems to be two main reasons one would trade Zen for AD, (which I don't think is the problem anyway):
1. Customers have Zen change left over and want to make immediate use of it.
2. They want something that is available in AD.
I propose more AD sinks like:
->Bound<- Blood Ruby and other Refining stones priced the same as a 500 to 1 ratio of Zen ->Unbound<- ones
An entire services tab for AD
Lowered Spider mount and even more importantly Lowered mount training Books
More mounts in general to the AD market with character bound status->
(maybe even just past and low selling mounts usually only found on the Zen)
All previous fashion items with obvious mark up
Anything with poor sales already on the Zen Market
So on and so on...
If the items are bound, that will prevent the flooding of the AH/devaluing the Zen Market - and will quickly and regularly sink AD.
Modular design allows these changes to be made easily, don't let anyone fool you. The logic is already there from what has been previously coded....
You make a new instance of the existing window, fill it with the proper images - text - detailed window, then fill the delivery function with the appropriate cost/item and finally call the things birth/place in the Bazaar's function start. This is little more than copy and paste then replacing a few pertinent defines.
In other words... I would like to see the Wondrous Bazaar really more fit it's own name.
This works for the time being because the difference between the real value of Zen and the cap of 500 is not so much that certain persons may decide that the time saved (instant vs AH times) and the AH commissions (that partially erode your gains) may still make the AD/ZEN exchange worth something.
Of course this depends on personal preference, but the point is that if the real value of Zen will keep on growing to absurd levels, (let's say 4000 for example) the "sellers" of Zen on the AD/ZEN exchange will be less and less and what now are "hours" to get your ZEN will become days, weeks and eventually NEVER.
Now i just think theres less players, and less new ones. The ones who play actively know or grind enough to keep generate AD without having to buy zen.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Well, this rise you wrote is a speculation and, in my opinion, not realistic.
I wrote why it is already semi balanced in my post above. And the whole economy is 'overseen' so while a backlog of orders and close zen value to 500 is realistic a wild growth to 'NEVER' will not happen ( i also speculate and assume... i dont work at cryptic or anything but i assume they see the turnover rates and numbers and they set the cap at 500, so will sink to maintain it. And past experience shows that they do so [eggs example] ). Except the fact that people need to understand that ZEN can be bought just by listing a buy order and waiting a bit, i don't see any need to 'panic' or do anything, worse all those uninformed 'omg, there is no zen' cause greater buy orders that should be and increase the queue.
IF/ When it goes to more than a day or two of wait for queue and no solution in sight, then, perhaps, it's time to rise concern.
BTW, by looking at the backlog queue and timing the sale listing and the time it was fulfilled it is easy to deduct the ZEN to AD turnover rate. And it is not small.
No they are not worth $10 that is ridiculous.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
So long as the generic winnings aren't things like potions of healing appropriate to your level! Or Peridots! Or rank 4 enchantments X3. I couldn't imagine paying even your lowest suggested price of 150k on a gamble like that, personally. But I do like this idea for an AD sink, plus the reductions for mount and companion upgrades.
Reasonable AD sinks have long been asked for in the game, that's for sure. And the idea of them works a lot better than mine, which is convincing people to withdraw their purchase requests from the ZAX as a stand against paying higher prices.
I would think that you would be happy too. After all, the login isn't shutdown with a message stating that the game has been terminated due to lack of revenue.
While the game is F2P; it isn't exclusively F2P. MMOs like this require a revenue stream in order to deliver server uptime, and content development.
The entitlement is strong in this one.
And hopefully we will have some countermeasures against the AD inflation...
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Hence why the cap isn't too high, but the zen price is
Likely just luck.
Personally part of me would prefer if they did shut down. I'm not sure they deserve the revenue.
And hence the backlog will grow further ):