How is it players fault for picking optimized group, and not the devs fault that a rainbow group (or close) is NOT the optimized group to do the dungeons ?
If you didn't notice I said the only way this will get solved is by putting a nail in the class stacking coffin.
I don't blame the players for optimizing groups but I do blame them for pointing the finger in the wrong direction.
There is a huge difference between pointing the finger at Guardian Fighters and at class stacking.
Guardian Fighters are not weak. Hell I don't even think GWFs and CWs are too strong. The fact remains that it is the players choice to stack classes to optimize and that is what is causing all of the hatred of GWFs, GFs, and every other PvE class vs class debate.
I think intothefade's point was that beyond a certain point, there IS such a thing as too much control. If you buff CW control and lower the damage, then a team of CWs will certainly be able to lockdown everything indefinitely, but it will take them aaaages to actually kill anything. Thus it would be faster at that point to use one or two CWs for control, bringing everything together for the other classes to actually murder.
GFs, as they currently stand, are more or less best deployed as "force multipliers": into the fray, KC bonus, marking everything etc.
"Make everyone else in the party produce bigger numbers, don't die."
You probably won't speed up the run as much as another deeps class would, but you will make everyone happy with the big numbers you help them produce.
Sure, good GFs can tank, and tank well, but there are so few situations in the game where tanking is necessary or even optimal. Their ostensible "primary role" essentially fits a need that the game simply doesn't have.
It's not designed around a tanky meta: there really isn't THAT much difference in total hitpoints and defense between a super-tanky GF and a super squishy CW. Yes, the latter will get one-hit if they stand in red, but the former will still probably lose 30-50% of their health if they don't block. In high-end dungeons, GFs are simply "less squishy" rather than "very tanky".
If they were going to bring them in line with other classes, they'd either need to buff the damage output considerably, so GFs can actually contribute some deeps to the party (note, this would be the easiest fix, because everything else could remain the same: they could still be buffbots, just buffbots who don't do laughable damage), or increase the tankiness and threat holding considerably, so GF tanking could actually be a thing.
Not that the recent buffs haven't been nice (hard tab mark is lovely, and cone AoE lunging strike is ), but they're wallpapering over cracks, not fixing walls.
Regarding rainbow party compositions, one approach could be to add synergistic effects that favour cross-class combinations: make status effects more defined, and more class-restricted (so CWs cause freezing, TRs cause bleeds, GFs cause knockdowns, GWFs cause stuns, HRs cause snares, etc..or similar), and have encounters from one class benefit from statuses created by others. So say "Stuns do double damage to frozen targets", and "knockdowns double bleed durations" and so on.
hmm ambisinisterr, i don't know what are your powers within cryptic, but it coul be good if you could maybe try to obtain a new state of the game from higher guys, and with real answers (GF, DC, farmable dungeons, raids, etc... all u can have already feedback to higher guys). thanks in advance
If you didn't notice I said the only way this will get solved is by putting a nail in the class stacking coffin.
I don't blame the players for optimizing groups but I do blame them for pointing the finger in the wrong direction.
There is a huge difference between pointing the finger at Guardian Fighters and at class stacking.
Guardian Fighters are not weak. Hell I don't even think GWFs and CWs are too strong. The fact remains that it is the players choice to stack classes to optimize and that is what is causing all of the hatred of GWFs, GFs, and every other PvE class vs class debate.
The thing is, players are going to optimize. They just will. A strong game takes optimization into account when creating conditions for ideal balance. The devs cannot force balance, they can only facilitate. The fact that it is SO easy to unbalance the system via optimized class stacking is a really severe weakness. Its like making shoes but calling them televisions and then wondering why people are complaining that there is not a good fit and baffled as to why anyone would wear their "televisions" instead of watching them.
If you didn't notice I said the only way this will get solved is by putting a nail in the class stacking coffin.
I don't blame the players for optimizing groups but I do blame them for pointing the finger in the wrong direction.
There is a huge difference between pointing the finger at Guardian Fighters and at class stacking.
Guardian Fighters are not weak. Hell I don't even think GWFs and CWs are too strong. The fact remains that it is the players choice to stack classes to optimize and that is what is causing all of the hatred of GWFs, GFs, and every other PvE class vs class debate.
I like how you shift the blame to players, when they have no control over what is and is not optimal. The only way we have seen the devs try and fix anything is through nerfs/buffs. We have seen no dungeon adjusting aside from bug fixing, despite it being repeatedly asked for. Our concerns are completly ignored by the devs, and they seem to have no problem with GF's becoming prayer/bank fodder. No matter what approach they take to alieviating the problem, we are still mushrooms. How long will it take before they address it? 1 month? 3? 6? Argue cause and effect all you want right along with us, but that isn't the reason for the thread. Why something is the way it is, is not nearly as important as how they are addressing it, and as it stands now, we have no idea whether or not they are even considering it. Why? because they don't talk to us.
You can make all the rationalizations you want, but with no Dev input it's nothing more than just another opinion in a sea of them.
Honestly the players ignore the Guardian Fighter. Not the devs. Truth is Guardian Fighters bring a lot to the party but players find stacking Conroe Wizards suits their fancy more...
Then any changes to make the Control Wizard weaker so they can't control as much or more powerful so they can control more will still result in players stacking control wizards.
If you guys stopped stacking Control Wizards you would notice Guardian Fighters are quite great as they are. Sadly the only way the players rs are likely to stop stacking classes is to actually start giving incentives for varied groups and punishments for stacking.
In the end, seriously guys, it is time to start looking at the real problem and stop kidding yourselves about the real cause of this issue.
From a PvP stand point:
Any buffs the GF received were countered by the implementation of tenacity. Our major means of DPS, and our prones were greatly nerfed.
What baffles me is that the buff/nerf happened at the same time, but the nerfs FAR outweighed the buffs. They broke the already broken (but still somewhat viable) class.
Let's go over some of these buffs real quickly:
Enhanced mark: a much needed and welcomed rework of mark. In PvP you would expect to see a damage buff due to this, however the tenacity changes lowered our DPS by much more than 15% and took away our ability to burst targets. This is noticed even more because in PvP a GF usually uses TR before an ability which also marked them, so the enhanced mark did nothing here. Also if you were planning on lunging in, you would just hit mark right before and it was applied very quickly and easily and you would benefit from the 15% anyway.
So long story short, enhanced mark did not raise our DPS at all, it just made keeping mark up a little BIT easier (I stress A LITTLE BIT here). But this is negated by the very large DPS/Prone nerf.
Lunging strike was a good if unneeded buff. It had the potential to be OP, however once again tenacity took away FAR more DPS than was buffed.
KC was reworked (YAY!!). But they broke it and it is unusable in PvP and I'm assuming PvE as well because it only works sometimes and can get stuck on cool down, so that you can't even change it out.
Griffins wrath was buffed, it has the potential to do a TON of damage when combined with a prone and KC. However due to tenacity the interrupt stun is rendered useless (I get hit with it ALL the time in PvP, it does nothing to slow me down, nothing.). Also the damage is ONLY good if combined with KC making that bugged ability something you HAVE to have on your bar in order to use GW, no thank you.
Anvil of doom had its animation time reduced making it a GREAT ability..... If you can get your opponent below 30% health! which you generally cannot, so the majority of the time this encounter slot is being wasted. Also the cast time is still too slow making it nearly impossible to land on a competent player. So you have to prone them first in order to use it but you can't because you had to drop a prone in order to slot Anvil... No bueno.
BULL CHARGE!!!! Got a range buff! It was sooooooo unneeded, we already have a TON of gap closers, we didn't need anymore! Don't get me wrong, I Really enjoy being able to BC people off the pillars in Hotenow, but this should have been a damage or prone duration buff, putting a range on it was just silly.
Now about your "GFs are fine" statement: The Devs themselves have said on many occasions that they feel GF is out of whack and needs a serious overhaul so.... Yeah that's that....
"It's the players ignoring GFs"
WHY? Is everyone an idiot? No.. GFs do not perform as well as other classes in PvE or PvP, so why play it? Why run one in your group?
Your argument is essentially that it's our fault for not taking/playing with an underpowered class. I don't even know what to do with that....
Many GFs came back after Tenacity, then quickly left again because GF is MUCH worse than before.
The "real" problem is that GF does not bring anything original to a group except bulls Charge which is useless in PvE, and Meh in PvP due to tenacity (you cannot keep someone off the point like you could pre tenacity, they rarely go further than a few feet.)
So no, it's not everything's fault except the class, it's the class.... And YOU are the one kidding yourself.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited May 2014
GFs are not desirable in a groups. There is no other way to say it and no matter what the cause,
it is the current 'meta'.
You can state that they have their use and in specific dungeons and so on,
but until you will see "lf gf for most dungeons"
they are not desirable.
Forcing GFs on a party does NOT makes them desirable,
only less because people know that they used to have GWF/CW there.
Imo, adding to GFs DPS is not the solution, it will only create another GWF class wit no purpse except 'stacks us' we are good at everything.
To encourage a diversity the challenge/dungeon must require the need for multiple roles and classes to fill those roles !
If everything is controllable in a dungeon why would anyone need a tank ?
When a CW can control and DPS at the same time.
If most of the dungeon is trash and the GWF/CW single target damage is about 70% of a TR,
who will take a TR ? (and i'm very generous with the 70%, imo it is much higher towards the 90%)
If most classes can live on lifesteal and there is almost no interrupts/dazing/prone from the enemy to interrupt that life-steal, why should highend party take DC that heals ?
It's the Devs job to decide what are the classes roles and then design the dungeons upon those roles so all of them are useful, or at-least in the general sense of leader, striker, tank and so on.
For now it is not the case and most dungeons require only a specific set of skills -> AoE damage.
Players will pick the most appropriate response for that challenge -> CW/GWF.
Imo, the hatred or class vs class issue is not stacking. stacking is a symptom ! The issue is the lack of need ! some play a single class or would like to play a specific class, what you would suggest for a GFs and others what are simply not needed nor desired in parties and will be invited not because they are useful but because the party is strong enough, can carry, and nice enough people not to care about super fast run.
So lets put the finger on the right thing here, is it the person who leveled/played a class for a long time, put time and effort in learning and gearing it and now find it almost useless after the game meta shift (or even to begin with) ?
Is it the parties who look to actually finish the dungeon (i.e. CN) and not wipe after wipe because they could have an additional cw ?
Or the design of the dungeon and the mobs which shifted the classes outside of their roles and/or left them unemployed ?
personal note -> though i play PvE TR and good enough with it to the level of being on par with GWFs and CWs to some extent, i do know that with my gear and the same skill level of play i could do much more as a GWF/CW, so when running with friends/guild/party am i fair to them ?
Additional note: I refer to PvE.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
for anyone who is curious on how to balance the game, do a search for my post which describes in detail how to make every single class desirable in both PVE and PVP. You simply have to ignore all the replies as its nothing but a giant derail from idiot CWs.
hope to see some changes and balance betwen classes in pve not just pvp some ppl like me play more pve then pvp , i personaly fiind mysel more relaxed in pve rather then pvp....
still im sick to see ppl grouping like 3CW/1GWF/1DC sometimes 4CW+1gwf or 3gwf+2cw .... ppl sooner or later will start to ignore clerics too and with the gwf "nerf" im not sure how much of nerf will be there, prob will be wizz party everywhere and the game should name "Neverotherclasses" with the logo wizzard and only that
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2014
FYI, my main character is a Guardian Fighter.
I can say with 100% confidence that all but a few dungeons are far easier with a Guardian Fighter than without one unless the Guardian Fighter follows the typical builds that try to turn them into a DPS class. Most players are seriously blind to the potential of GFs partly because the elitist status quo is anti-GF and the majority of GFs are building Guardian Fighters in a manner which is just...horrible.
For instance somebody just recently said that Guardian Fighters are not tanky. Sounds like a conqueror build focussed on damage. My spec focusses on tanking adds. When I take damage I reduce enemy damage, when I attack I reduce enemy damage, when I take damage I generate threat, when I take damage I do damage, when I do any form of damage I generate threat.
I don't die in dungeons. Nor do I use a shield other than to prevent CC. What I do is keep my team attacking rather than dodging and running around. I don't do a lot of damage but my team does a lot more due to me.
Just to give you an idea of how tanky a GF can be, I ran around the lava in MT Hotenow for over two hours and did not drink a single potion. Only reason I left was because I finally got bored enough to do something else.
I didn't feel underpowered before the buffs. Now that I got the buffs I honestly feel overpowered.
The shortcoming is that dungeons will be slightly slower. Slightly slower but far easier.
Which gets to the nitty gritty...
Just because it is slower doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Especially when you are not holding a class against a single other class but are actually holding it up against stacked effects. For instance what makes multiple CWs so powerful is actually the staggered AS. A single Guardian Fighter versus a single CW is more often then not a mild comparison.
Again, stacking is the problem. Truthfully until stacking is addressed its comparing apples to oranges.
And please note you won't be hearing me talk about the Gf PvP experience in any way. Since I do not PvP competitively I will not ever be talking about class balance in PvP unless it is blatantly obvious as an imbalance.
I'm not sure running around in lava for two hours is necessarily a representation of tankiness: lava damage is low and constant, so as long as you have enough hitpoints and regen, you'll reach an equilibrium where regen matches damage. If you can do that, it doesn't matter if it's two mins or two days: it's a stable equilibrium. You could sleep in lava if you wanted.
And as far as real tankiness goes, again: there really isn't that much difference in net defence/Hitpoints between a squishy and a prot/tact specced GF. Or indeed between a conq or a prot or a tact. Especially when so much of the game is based around avoiding red, rather than facetanking it. In early T1s you might see a marked difference, where red will 1-shot squishy CWs but leave GFs largely unfazed, but by T2.5s a lot of red attacks do enough damage to come close to 1-shotting GFs, whereas CWs are in exactly the same boat as before.
There's not a lot of mileage in having twice as many hitpoints and twice the defense of someone else if everything is doing instagib damage anyway.
(Also of course, a lot of red attacks, or at least their CC components, go right through the shield anyway)
I'm not saying a good GF isn't an asset, but a good GF is a good player, and a good player is ALWAYS an asset. It's just that it'd probably be faster if that good player was rolling a CW or a GWF.
(disclaimer: I honestly will run with any party composition, and couldn't give a hoot about clear speed. I just understand why those who do, play the way they do)
And please note you won't be hearing me talk about the Gf PvP experience in any way. Since I do not PvP competitively I will not ever be talking about class balance in PvP unless it is blatantly obvious as an imbalance.
Fair enough.
And I agree with you, GF's can be incredibly tanky, its useless in PvP but I can see how it would work in PvE I guess, I don't know enough about it to say. I do not PvE so I have not, and will not offer advice about that.
Perhaps the answer is to diversify the types of enemies a team encounters in high-end instances, like epic dungeons - make some enemies immune to control effects, but susceptible to taunts. Make some enemies highly resistant to ranged AoE damage, but weak to single target melee damage. Make some enemies able to see through stealth, and others who suffer additional damage when struck from stealth. Add some types of enemies that actually take damage when a player near them gets healed, or ones that suffer additional debuffs when they themselves get debuffed or are struck by a player who is benefiting from a buff that did not originate from themselves.
The reason why CWs are preferred is that you can sweep all enemies into a nice big clump and burn them down with all your AoEs. If the enemies were diversified to the point where no single tactic would work in all cases, then piling on abilities that only work on a fraction of the enemies would be pointless...
The problem is with a somewhat waning game this is an exceedingly expensive, unlikely fix. Too all encompassing. But, imo the best fix. The player base has adapted to this games "mass of trash" dungeon style with the best way it knows how, aoe dps and control.
I think intothefade's point was that beyond a certain point, there IS such a thing as too much control. If you buff CW control and lower the damage, then a team of CWs will certainly be able to lockdown everything indefinitely, but it will take them aaaages to actually kill anything. Thus it would be faster at that point to use one or two CWs for control, bringing everything together for the other classes to actually murder.
GFs, as they currently stand, are more or less best deployed as "force multipliers": into the fray, KC bonus, marking everything etc.
"Make everyone else in the party produce bigger numbers, don't die."
You probably won't speed up the run as much as another deeps class would, but you will make everyone happy with the big numbers you help them produce.
Sure, good GFs can tank, and tank well, but there are so few situations in the game where tanking is necessary or even optimal. Their ostensible "primary role" essentially fits a need that the game simply doesn't have.
It's not designed around a tanky meta: there really isn't THAT much difference in total hitpoints and defense between a super-tanky GF and a super squishy CW. Yes, the latter will get one-hit if they stand in red, but the former will still probably lose 30-50% of their health if they don't block. In high-end dungeons, GFs are simply "less squishy" rather than "very tanky".
If they were going to bring them in line with other classes, they'd either need to buff the damage output considerably, so GFs can actually contribute some deeps to the party (note, this would be the easiest fix, because everything else could remain the same: they could still be buffbots, just buffbots who don't do laughable damage), or increase the tankiness and threat holding considerably, so GF tanking could actually be a thing.
Not that the recent buffs haven't been nice (hard tab mark is lovely, and cone AoE lunging strike is ), but they're wallpapering over cracks, not fixing walls.
Regarding rainbow party compositions, one approach could be to add synergistic effects that favour cross-class combinations: make status effects more defined, and more class-restricted (so CWs cause freezing, TRs cause bleeds, GFs cause knockdowns, GWFs cause stuns, HRs cause snares, etc..or similar), and have encounters from one class benefit from statuses created by others. So say "Stuns do double damage to frozen targets", and "knockdowns double bleed durations" and so on.
Also, awesome post, another idea would be to buff the block mechanic somehow. I think if GF dps was buffed enough to make them viable dps in pve it would imbalance pvp, but what if a timing block mechanic was added?
If you land a "perfect" block (just slightly before an enemy encounter hits, facing the appropriate direction) the GF was able to do something else. Debuff the mod/enemy player, add a secondary effect to their encounter similar to rogues stealth adding more to their encounters, give them a short mobility ability after the perfect block, or a "Captain America" like shield throw... something like that.
Food for thought.
One thing is for sure, it isn't just random fickleness of the playerbase controlling the flippant disregard for GF's in pve AND pvp;
they need something bad and I would really love to hear some reassurance from the dev team that they are aware of, and planning to address this asap. We do nothave so many classes that one should be tossed aside in both aspects of endgame.
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rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
edited May 2014
I too think that GFs are okay as they are, and that is more players wanting to optimize their time that is the issue. Yes I would like for there to be better ways to get more crit on my GF (my co-main), as she is wearing High Generals' armor. But she still out-damages all but 2 of my characters, my main cleric (high prophet) and my CW, and takes very little damage in the process. And the CW is only because of one power, Shard.
I think the best fix is either to require parties in dungeons/pvp/skirmishes to be "rainbow" parties, that or limit the numbers of times that dungeons/skirmishes can be run during their respective DD hour. Hopefully the dungeon delve keys will change some of this. This would eliminate the reason to want to do "speed" runs. Yes it would affect the game economy, a little, but would be the easiest solution. And I only PVE, do not like PVP at all.
never played a guardian, but from my time of grouping with them on my rogue.....it seemed that i was more tanky than them. guardians generally have 20% more resist and block while rogues have ITC, potentially 40-50% deflect, 2 dodges, and can deft strike dodge cone aoes. guardians constantly take damage except when blocking and some seem to be hit through block by some aoes while rogues can potentially finish a boss fight without taking a single big hit but actually do more single-target dps than guardians.
the role of tanking is a weird thing in this game because all of the melee classes compete for it and rogues at least are hindered when the other 2 try to aoe tank.
even if u make mobs need a tank, it does not equate to needing a guardian as gwf's/rogues can easily pull off boss-tanking and the million other mobs (including immune mobs) r better dealt with by aoe damage.
I can say with 100% confidence that all but a few dungeons are far easier with a Guardian Fighter than without one unless the Guardian Fighter follows the typical builds that try to turn them into a DPS class. Most players are seriously blind to the potential of GFs partly because the elitist status quo is anti-GF and the majority of GFs are building Guardian Fighters in a manner which is just...horrible.
For instance somebody just recently said that Guardian Fighters are not tanky. Sounds like a conqueror build focussed on damage. My spec focusses on tanking adds. When I take damage I reduce enemy damage, when I attack I reduce enemy damage, when I take damage I generate threat, when I take damage I do damage, when I do any form of damage I generate threat.
I don't die in dungeons. Nor do I use a shield other than to prevent CC. What I do is keep my team attacking rather than dodging and running around. I don't do a lot of damage but my team does a lot more due to me.
Just to give you an idea of how tanky a GF can be, I ran around the lava in MT Hotenow for over two hours and did not drink a single potion. Only reason I left was because I finally got bored enough to do something else.
I didn't feel underpowered before the buffs. Now that I got the buffs I honestly feel overpowered.
The shortcoming is that dungeons will be slightly slower. Slightly slower but far easier.
Which gets to the nitty gritty...
Just because it is slower doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Especially when you are not holding a class against a single other class but are actually holding it up against stacked effects. For instance what makes multiple CWs so powerful is actually the staggered AS. A single Guardian Fighter versus a single CW is more often then not a mild comparison.
Again, stacking is the problem. Truthfully until stacking is addressed its comparing apples to oranges.
And please note you won't be hearing me talk about the Gf PvP experience in any way. Since I do not PvP competitively I will not ever be talking about class balance in PvP unless it is blatantly obvious as an imbalance.
I agree with a LOT of this.
Btw, I'm a conqueror GF and I do PvP and PvE too. ^^
I wrote in another post that one of the biggest problems facing the GF is psychological. It's the way people perceive them. I think they could do with mild boosts, but many of the suggestions people make would make GFs overpowered, I guarantee it.
I think it's funny to meet a GF that thinks they are fine in PvE and has no opinion on PvP. I wanted to add that I think GFs are just fine in PvP and I thought they could use some work in PvE, but not at the cost of making them overpowered in PvP. I already feel sry for most of the archers and CWs I meet. xD
Could they use some tweaks, definitely. But this is a very interesting perspective and an analysis on human nature.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
I can say with 100% confidence that all but a few dungeons are far easier with a Guardian Fighter than without one
I can say with 100% confidence that no dungeon is easier with a GF than without one. Also can say with 100% confidence that no dungeon is faster with a GF than without one.
I can say with 100% confidence that all but a few dungeons are far easier with a Guardian Fighter than without one unless the Guardian Fighter follows the typical builds that try to turn them into a DPS class. Most players are seriously blind to the potential of GFs partly because the elitist status quo is anti-GF and the majority of GFs are building Guardian Fighters in a manner which is just...horrible.
For instance somebody just recently said that Guardian Fighters are not tanky. Sounds like a conqueror build focussed on damage. My spec focusses on tanking adds. When I take damage I reduce enemy damage, when I attack I reduce enemy damage, when I take damage I generate threat, when I take damage I do damage, when I do any form of damage I generate threat.
I don't die in dungeons. Nor do I use a shield other than to prevent CC. What I do is keep my team attacking rather than dodging and running around. I don't do a lot of damage but my team does a lot more due to me.
Just to give you an idea of how tanky a GF can be, I ran around the lava in MT Hotenow for over two hours and did not drink a single potion. Only reason I left was because I finally got bored enough to do something else.
I didn't feel underpowered before the buffs. Now that I got the buffs I honestly feel overpowered.
The shortcoming is that dungeons will be slightly slower. Slightly slower but far easier.
Which gets to the nitty gritty...
Just because it is slower doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Especially when you are not holding a class against a single other class but are actually holding it up against stacked effects. For instance what makes multiple CWs so powerful is actually the staggered AS. A single Guardian Fighter versus a single CW is more often then not a mild comparison.
Again, stacking is the problem. Truthfully until stacking is addressed its comparing apples to oranges.
And please note you won't be hearing me talk about the Gf PvP experience in any way. Since I do not PvP competitively I will not ever be talking about class balance in PvP unless it is blatantly obvious as an imbalance.
how many potions you need for that?
you have try tank and kill 3 mobs ( elites)alone?
you see how GWF tank and kill the 3 same mobs like you? ( same Build/ armor /stats/ boom)?
how many time you can tank 3 mobs ( elites)?
how many time GWF can tank 3 mobs (Elites)?
soo... GF is the warrior class specializes to def/tank and protect the party and GWf is the warrior class specializes atk/crit/armor penetration/hp .. hell what no have the GWF....
and you see these normal? GWF can tank 4 times better tham GF and deal 10 times more dmg?
and just put melee class if you see the other class in same situation you do a ROFLAMO to see what Stinks GF in 93 % of pve situation
soo the ppl no wanna overpower class (well just a few players) the ppl wanna have chance to compare whit other class and have a one BIG GOOD roll in the game...
To contradict myself, I find in pvp that GF's are either uber...like kill everything by looking at it and never die, or they are horrible. Horrible as in they can be taken close to death with a single fox shift or aimed shot when their block is down. I agree the class has to be taken a little outside the tank box to be played really well. Opening a fight by just waddling around with the shield up doesnt cut it imo.
I'm max geared, I'll destroy pugs and the mid level PvP guilds, but if I'm against ANY class played by a top ET or CS player, I have no chance. This isent because they are better, it's because the GF class is behind every other class in PvP.
Heck even CWs (pretty underpowered right now) have a very very good chance of killing me 1v1, and if they get the jump on me? Forget it!
Now in a premade a GF can be very useful, but you really have to be on point, there is no room for error.
Now having said that, whatever class you are leaving out of your rainbow would probably be more useful than a GF in its current state. So why not take that class instead?
I don't know much about PvE but from what I've read lately, it sounds like it's the exact same situation. If you have a really skilled and geared GF in your party, you'll do fine! BUT! Any other class would be better.
This is a problem, and it baffles me that some people do not recognize it as one.
And I don't believe the problem is that people want to run efficient groups, it's that the GF has no place in one.
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darkzangaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
To, ambisinisterr
Im going give you a thumbs up. I run the same type of GF. I also dont touch PvP. When Im bored I'll jump in a "que" group and see how far we can go. I say que and not "pug"... Ohh the group is too squishy let me re-adjust, ohh the group is low on dps let me adjust..
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darkzangaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
We are dealing with Cryptic.. Ive played other products by them and it was the same.. It may be a younger generation thing buts its all about damage becaue Defense and AC are almost useless.
Explain to me why any game has the wizard doing more damge, taking more damage and healing more all at the same time!!!!!!!!!!! Its insane.
People complain all the time. Change sth. here and and it will be the people with a low gs, maybe another class. There´s nothing wrong with the Guardian. Leave it the way it is. When i get replaced in a dungeon with the GF, that i could do in my sleep; that doesn´t bring me to the question if there might be something wrong with the class..
Last month... You know... When they buffed them... -.-
And as for saying CWs can be changed, sure they could be changed but it wouldn't make players want a Guardian Fighter.
If CWs were nerfed so multiple CWs was not as overpowered it would simply give more reason for CWs to be stacked. If they are buffed so less CWs are needed to have the same power as stacked CWs then it just makes stacked CWs all the more powerful...
GFs do bring good things to a party. They do not enough compared to stacked CWs.
And if they did take one guess what would happen?
It doesn't take a whole lot of intellect to realize that this situation has already come to pass. GWFs were considered useless for months. They finally got enough to be desirable by the main bulk of the players and what happened? They get stacked.
So if GFs ever get enough power to be considered useful over stacked control wizards the only thing that will happen is GFs will be stacked and CWs will get the boot.
The issue is and always has been players would rather stack classes to min/max a group than run mixed compositions.
How can you possibly blame the players for using what works? Yeah, you could use rainbow parties. You could also do it in green gear, or with totally incorrect enchantments, etc. But why would you.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited May 2014
A few brainstorm ideas I'm gonna throw out there to improve GF viability in PvE without affecting PvP.
I'm not saying implement them all, even a few would make me happy.
Content Changes:
1 - Add unstoppable to Ogres, Cyclop Hewers, Fell Trolls, Thoon Hulks, Plaguechanged Hulks, Rimefire and Hellfire Golems in Valindra Towers.
2 - Add "see through stealth" to all bosses.
Class power changes:
1 - Shield block talent increased to 10/20/30% (up from 5/10/15)
2 - Enforced Threat targets 10 enemies. (up from 8)
Class feat changes:
Protector Line
1 - Overwhelming Impact swapped with Surging Tide from Tactician Line
2 - Brawling Warrior: No longer increases damage and threat of Enforced Threat, but increases the number of targets it can affect by 2/4/6/8/10 (bringing it to a max of 20)
3 - Shield Master: Increased to 5/10/15/20/25% (up from 2/4/6/8/10)
4 - Iron Guard: In addition to its current effect, doubles the guard restoration rate of all your at-wills and encounter abilities that restore guard meter.
Tactician Line
1 - Surging Tide swapped with Overwheling Impact from Protector Line
2 - Martial Mastery: In addition to its current effect, causes all attacks to mark the target.
I can say with 100% confidence that no dungeon is easier with a GF than without one. Also can say with 100% confidence that no dungeon is faster with a GF than without one.
Balls in your court.
with Moderators like him, you can easily see why the GF community gets no love from developers.
HAMSTER, level 60 GF, "Bloodthirsty" since Mod 2 Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
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darkzangaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
Make AC mean something. Increase the damge mobs do and increase resistance to damage based on AC.
Make more mobs uncontrollable.. There's a difference between flopping them on the ground and lowering defense. Put a cap on power!! Its ridiculous power just keeps going. And for goodness sake, bring the Protector and Tactician in line with conqueror..
Nice, blame the players. Players will always try to find the most efficient way to do something, that's the nature of humans. Simply telling them to 'stop stacking Control Wizards' and start adding GF is not going to solve the issue. That's just moronic. If you want to solve the issue, then solve the issue. Don't blame the players for 'playing the game wrong'.
Either fix the class, or just come out and admit the class is not needed in this game.
Honestly the players ignore the Guardian Fighter. Not the devs. Truth is Guardian Fighters bring a lot to the party but players find stacking Conroe Wizards suits their fancy more...
Then any changes to make the Control Wizard weaker so they can't control as much or more powerful so they can control more will still result in players stacking control wizards.
If you guys stopped stacking Control Wizards you would notice Guardian Fighters are quite great as they are. Sadly the only way the players rs are likely to stop stacking classes is to actually start giving incentives for varied groups and punishments for stacking.
In the end, seriously guys, it is time to start looking at the real problem and stop kidding yourselves about the real cause of this issue.
Comments
I don't blame the players for optimizing groups but I do blame them for pointing the finger in the wrong direction.
There is a huge difference between pointing the finger at Guardian Fighters and at class stacking.
Guardian Fighters are not weak. Hell I don't even think GWFs and CWs are too strong. The fact remains that it is the players choice to stack classes to optimize and that is what is causing all of the hatred of GWFs, GFs, and every other PvE class vs class debate.
GFs, as they currently stand, are more or less best deployed as "force multipliers": into the fray, KC bonus, marking everything etc.
"Make everyone else in the party produce bigger numbers, don't die."
You probably won't speed up the run as much as another deeps class would, but you will make everyone happy with the big numbers you help them produce.
Sure, good GFs can tank, and tank well, but there are so few situations in the game where tanking is necessary or even optimal. Their ostensible "primary role" essentially fits a need that the game simply doesn't have.
It's not designed around a tanky meta: there really isn't THAT much difference in total hitpoints and defense between a super-tanky GF and a super squishy CW. Yes, the latter will get one-hit if they stand in red, but the former will still probably lose 30-50% of their health if they don't block. In high-end dungeons, GFs are simply "less squishy" rather than "very tanky".
If they were going to bring them in line with other classes, they'd either need to buff the damage output considerably, so GFs can actually contribute some deeps to the party (note, this would be the easiest fix, because everything else could remain the same: they could still be buffbots, just buffbots who don't do laughable damage), or increase the tankiness and threat holding considerably, so GF tanking could actually be a thing.
Not that the recent buffs haven't been nice (hard tab mark is lovely, and cone AoE lunging strike is
Regarding rainbow party compositions, one approach could be to add synergistic effects that favour cross-class combinations: make status effects more defined, and more class-restricted (so CWs cause freezing, TRs cause bleeds, GFs cause knockdowns, GWFs cause stuns, HRs cause snares, etc..or similar), and have encounters from one class benefit from statuses created by others. So say "Stuns do double damage to frozen targets", and "knockdowns double bleed durations" and so on.
The thing is, players are going to optimize. They just will. A strong game takes optimization into account when creating conditions for ideal balance. The devs cannot force balance, they can only facilitate. The fact that it is SO easy to unbalance the system via optimized class stacking is a really severe weakness. Its like making shoes but calling them televisions and then wondering why people are complaining that there is not a good fit and baffled as to why anyone would wear their "televisions" instead of watching them.
Jugger Conq GF
....
I like how you shift the blame to players, when they have no control over what is and is not optimal. The only way we have seen the devs try and fix anything is through nerfs/buffs. We have seen no dungeon adjusting aside from bug fixing, despite it being repeatedly asked for. Our concerns are completly ignored by the devs, and they seem to have no problem with GF's becoming prayer/bank fodder. No matter what approach they take to alieviating the problem, we are still mushrooms. How long will it take before they address it? 1 month? 3? 6? Argue cause and effect all you want right along with us, but that isn't the reason for the thread. Why something is the way it is, is not nearly as important as how they are addressing it, and as it stands now, we have no idea whether or not they are even considering it. Why? because they don't talk to us.
You can make all the rationalizations you want, but with no Dev input it's nothing more than just another opinion in a sea of them.
From a PvP stand point:
Any buffs the GF received were countered by the implementation of tenacity. Our major means of DPS, and our prones were greatly nerfed.
What baffles me is that the buff/nerf happened at the same time, but the nerfs FAR outweighed the buffs. They broke the already broken (but still somewhat viable) class.
Let's go over some of these buffs real quickly:
Enhanced mark: a much needed and welcomed rework of mark. In PvP you would expect to see a damage buff due to this, however the tenacity changes lowered our DPS by much more than 15% and took away our ability to burst targets. This is noticed even more because in PvP a GF usually uses TR before an ability which also marked them, so the enhanced mark did nothing here. Also if you were planning on lunging in, you would just hit mark right before and it was applied very quickly and easily and you would benefit from the 15% anyway.
So long story short, enhanced mark did not raise our DPS at all, it just made keeping mark up a little BIT easier (I stress A LITTLE BIT here). But this is negated by the very large DPS/Prone nerf.
Lunging strike was a good if unneeded buff. It had the potential to be OP, however once again tenacity took away FAR more DPS than was buffed.
KC was reworked (YAY!!). But they broke it and it is unusable in PvP and I'm assuming PvE as well because it only works sometimes and can get stuck on cool down, so that you can't even change it out.
Griffins wrath was buffed, it has the potential to do a TON of damage when combined with a prone and KC. However due to tenacity the interrupt stun is rendered useless (I get hit with it ALL the time in PvP, it does nothing to slow me down, nothing.). Also the damage is ONLY good if combined with KC making that bugged ability something you HAVE to have on your bar in order to use GW, no thank you.
Anvil of doom had its animation time reduced making it a GREAT ability..... If you can get your opponent below 30% health! which you generally cannot, so the majority of the time this encounter slot is being wasted. Also the cast time is still too slow making it nearly impossible to land on a competent player. So you have to prone them first in order to use it but you can't because you had to drop a prone in order to slot Anvil... No bueno.
BULL CHARGE!!!! Got a range buff! It was sooooooo unneeded, we already have a TON of gap closers, we didn't need anymore! Don't get me wrong, I Really enjoy being able to BC people off the pillars in Hotenow, but this should have been a damage or prone duration buff, putting a range on it was just silly.
Now about your "GFs are fine" statement: The Devs themselves have said on many occasions that they feel GF is out of whack and needs a serious overhaul so.... Yeah that's that....
"It's the players ignoring GFs"
WHY? Is everyone an idiot? No.. GFs do not perform as well as other classes in PvE or PvP, so why play it? Why run one in your group?
Your argument is essentially that it's our fault for not taking/playing with an underpowered class. I don't even know what to do with that....
Many GFs came back after Tenacity, then quickly left again because GF is MUCH worse than before.
The "real" problem is that GF does not bring anything original to a group except bulls Charge which is useless in PvE, and Meh in PvP due to tenacity (you cannot keep someone off the point like you could pre tenacity, they rarely go further than a few feet.)
So no, it's not everything's fault except the class, it's the class.... And YOU are the one kidding yourself.
it is the current 'meta'.
You can state that they have their use and in specific dungeons and so on,
but until you will see "lf gf for most dungeons"
they are not desirable.
Forcing GFs on a party does NOT makes them desirable,
only less because people know that they used to have GWF/CW there.
Imo, adding to GFs DPS is not the solution, it will only create another GWF class wit no purpse except 'stacks us' we are good at everything.
To encourage a diversity the challenge/dungeon must require the need for multiple roles and classes to fill those roles !
If everything is controllable in a dungeon why would anyone need a tank ?
When a CW can control and DPS at the same time.
If most of the dungeon is trash and the GWF/CW single target damage is about 70% of a TR,
who will take a TR ? (and i'm very generous with the 70%, imo it is much higher towards the 90%)
If most classes can live on lifesteal and there is almost no interrupts/dazing/prone from the enemy to interrupt that life-steal, why should highend party take DC that heals ?
It's the Devs job to decide what are the classes roles and then design the dungeons upon those roles so all of them are useful, or at-least in the general sense of leader, striker, tank and so on.
For now it is not the case and most dungeons require only a specific set of skills -> AoE damage.
Players will pick the most appropriate response for that challenge -> CW/GWF.
Imo, the hatred or class vs class issue is not stacking. stacking is a symptom !
The issue is the lack of need ! some play a single class or would like to play a specific class, what you would suggest for a GFs and others what are simply not needed nor desired in parties and will be invited not because they are useful but because the party is strong enough, can carry, and nice enough people not to care about super fast run.
So lets put the finger on the right thing here, is it the person who leveled/played a class for a long time, put time and effort in learning and gearing it and now find it almost useless after the game meta shift (or even to begin with) ?
Is it the parties who look to actually finish the dungeon (i.e. CN) and not wipe after wipe because they could have an additional cw ?
Or the design of the dungeon and the mobs which shifted the classes outside of their roles and/or left them unemployed ?
personal note -> though i play PvE TR and good enough with it to the level of being on par with GWFs and CWs to some extent, i do know that with my gear and the same skill level of play i could do much more as a GWF/CW, so when running with friends/guild/party am i fair to them ?
Additional note: I refer to PvE.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
still im sick to see ppl grouping like 3CW/1GWF/1DC sometimes 4CW+1gwf or 3gwf+2cw .... ppl sooner or later will start to ignore clerics too and with the gwf "nerf" im not sure how much of nerf will be there, prob will be wizz party everywhere and the game should name "Neverotherclasses" with the logo wizzard and only that
I can say with 100% confidence that all but a few dungeons are far easier with a Guardian Fighter than without one unless the Guardian Fighter follows the typical builds that try to turn them into a DPS class. Most players are seriously blind to the potential of GFs partly because the elitist status quo is anti-GF and the majority of GFs are building Guardian Fighters in a manner which is just...horrible.
For instance somebody just recently said that Guardian Fighters are not tanky. Sounds like a conqueror build focussed on damage. My spec focusses on tanking adds. When I take damage I reduce enemy damage, when I attack I reduce enemy damage, when I take damage I generate threat, when I take damage I do damage, when I do any form of damage I generate threat.
I don't die in dungeons. Nor do I use a shield other than to prevent CC. What I do is keep my team attacking rather than dodging and running around. I don't do a lot of damage but my team does a lot more due to me.
Just to give you an idea of how tanky a GF can be, I ran around the lava in MT Hotenow for over two hours and did not drink a single potion. Only reason I left was because I finally got bored enough to do something else.
I didn't feel underpowered before the buffs. Now that I got the buffs I honestly feel overpowered.
The shortcoming is that dungeons will be slightly slower. Slightly slower but far easier.
Which gets to the nitty gritty...
Just because it is slower doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Especially when you are not holding a class against a single other class but are actually holding it up against stacked effects. For instance what makes multiple CWs so powerful is actually the staggered AS. A single Guardian Fighter versus a single CW is more often then not a mild comparison.
Again, stacking is the problem. Truthfully until stacking is addressed its comparing apples to oranges.
And please note you won't be hearing me talk about the Gf PvP experience in any way. Since I do not PvP competitively I will not ever be talking about class balance in PvP unless it is blatantly obvious as an imbalance.
And as far as real tankiness goes, again: there really isn't that much difference in net defence/Hitpoints between a squishy and a prot/tact specced GF. Or indeed between a conq or a prot or a tact. Especially when so much of the game is based around avoiding red, rather than facetanking it. In early T1s you might see a marked difference, where red will 1-shot squishy CWs but leave GFs largely unfazed, but by T2.5s a lot of red attacks do enough damage to come close to 1-shotting GFs, whereas CWs are in exactly the same boat as before.
There's not a lot of mileage in having twice as many hitpoints and twice the defense of someone else if everything is doing instagib damage anyway.
(Also of course, a lot of red attacks, or at least their CC components, go right through the shield anyway)
I'm not saying a good GF isn't an asset, but a good GF is a good player, and a good player is ALWAYS an asset. It's just that it'd probably be faster if that good player was rolling a CW or a GWF.
(disclaimer: I honestly will run with any party composition, and couldn't give a hoot about clear speed. I just understand why those who do, play the way they do)
Fair enough.
And I agree with you, GF's can be incredibly tanky, its useless in PvP but I can see how it would work in PvE I guess, I don't know enough about it to say. I do not PvE so I have not, and will not offer advice about that.
The problem is with a somewhat waning game this is an exceedingly expensive, unlikely fix. Too all encompassing. But, imo the best fix. The player base has adapted to this games "mass of trash" dungeon style with the best way it knows how, aoe dps and control.
Also, awesome post, another idea would be to buff the block mechanic somehow. I think if GF dps was buffed enough to make them viable dps in pve it would imbalance pvp, but what if a timing block mechanic was added?
If you land a "perfect" block (just slightly before an enemy encounter hits, facing the appropriate direction) the GF was able to do something else. Debuff the mod/enemy player, add a secondary effect to their encounter similar to rogues stealth adding more to their encounters, give them a short mobility ability after the perfect block, or a "Captain America" like shield throw... something like that.
Food for thought.
One thing is for sure, it isn't just random fickleness of the playerbase controlling the flippant disregard for GF's in pve AND pvp;
they need something bad and I would really love to hear some reassurance from the dev team that they are aware of, and planning to address this asap. We do nothave so many classes that one should be tossed aside in both aspects of endgame.
I think the best fix is either to require parties in dungeons/pvp/skirmishes to be "rainbow" parties, that or limit the numbers of times that dungeons/skirmishes can be run during their respective DD hour. Hopefully the dungeon delve keys will change some of this. This would eliminate the reason to want to do "speed" runs. Yes it would affect the game economy, a little, but would be the easiest solution. And I only PVE, do not like PVP at all.
the role of tanking is a weird thing in this game because all of the melee classes compete for it and rogues at least are hindered when the other 2 try to aoe tank.
even if u make mobs need a tank, it does not equate to needing a guardian as gwf's/rogues can easily pull off boss-tanking and the million other mobs (including immune mobs) r better dealt with by aoe damage.
I agree with a LOT of this.
Btw, I'm a conqueror GF and I do PvP and PvE too. ^^
I wrote in another post that one of the biggest problems facing the GF is psychological. It's the way people perceive them. I think they could do with mild boosts, but many of the suggestions people make would make GFs overpowered, I guarantee it.
I think it's funny to meet a GF that thinks they are fine in PvE and has no opinion on PvP. I wanted to add that I think GFs are just fine in PvP and I thought they could use some work in PvE, but not at the cost of making them overpowered in PvP. I already feel sry for most of the archers and CWs I meet. xD
Could they use some tweaks, definitely. But this is a very interesting perspective and an analysis on human nature.
Balls in your court.
how many potions you need for that?
you have try tank and kill 3 mobs ( elites)alone?
you see how GWF tank and kill the 3 same mobs like you? ( same Build/ armor /stats/ boom)?
how many time you can tank 3 mobs ( elites)?
how many time GWF can tank 3 mobs (Elites)?
soo... GF is the warrior class specializes to def/tank and protect the party and GWf is the warrior class specializes atk/crit/armor penetration/hp .. hell what no have the GWF....
and you see these normal? GWF can tank 4 times better tham GF and deal 10 times more dmg?
and just put melee class if you see the other class in same situation you do a ROFLAMO to see what Stinks GF in 93 % of pve situation
soo the ppl no wanna overpower class (well just a few players) the ppl wanna have chance to compare whit other class and have a one BIG GOOD roll in the game...
Jugger Conq GF
....
I'm max geared, I'll destroy pugs and the mid level PvP guilds, but if I'm against ANY class played by a top ET or CS player, I have no chance. This isent because they are better, it's because the GF class is behind every other class in PvP.
Heck even CWs (pretty underpowered right now) have a very very good chance of killing me 1v1, and if they get the jump on me? Forget it!
Now in a premade a GF can be very useful, but you really have to be on point, there is no room for error.
Now having said that, whatever class you are leaving out of your rainbow would probably be more useful than a GF in its current state. So why not take that class instead?
I don't know much about PvE but from what I've read lately, it sounds like it's the exact same situation. If you have a really skilled and geared GF in your party, you'll do fine! BUT! Any other class would be better.
This is a problem, and it baffles me that some people do not recognize it as one.
And I don't believe the problem is that people want to run efficient groups, it's that the GF has no place in one.
Im going give you a thumbs up. I run the same type of GF. I also dont touch PvP. When Im bored I'll jump in a "que" group and see how far we can go. I say que and not "pug"... Ohh the group is too squishy let me re-adjust, ohh the group is low on dps let me adjust..
Explain to me why any game has the wizard doing more damge, taking more damage and healing more all at the same time!!!!!!!!!!! Its insane.
How can you possibly blame the players for using what works? Yeah, you could use rainbow parties. You could also do it in green gear, or with totally incorrect enchantments, etc. But why would you.
I'm not saying implement them all, even a few would make me happy.
Content Changes:
1 - Add unstoppable to Ogres, Cyclop Hewers, Fell Trolls, Thoon Hulks, Plaguechanged Hulks, Rimefire and Hellfire Golems in Valindra Towers.
2 - Add "see through stealth" to all bosses.
Class power changes:
1 - Shield block talent increased to 10/20/30% (up from 5/10/15)
2 - Enforced Threat targets 10 enemies. (up from 8)
Class feat changes:
Protector Line
1 - Overwhelming Impact swapped with Surging Tide from Tactician Line
2 - Brawling Warrior: No longer increases damage and threat of Enforced Threat, but increases the number of targets it can affect by 2/4/6/8/10 (bringing it to a max of 20)
3 - Shield Master: Increased to 5/10/15/20/25% (up from 2/4/6/8/10)
4 - Iron Guard: In addition to its current effect, doubles the guard restoration rate of all your at-wills and encounter abilities that restore guard meter.
Tactician Line
1 - Surging Tide swapped with Overwheling Impact from Protector Line
2 - Martial Mastery: In addition to its current effect, causes all attacks to mark the target.
with Moderators like him, you can easily see why the GF community gets no love from developers.
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
Make more mobs uncontrollable.. There's a difference between flopping them on the ground and lowering defense. Put a cap on power!! Its ridiculous power just keeps going. And for goodness sake, bring the Protector and Tactician in line with conqueror..
Either fix the class, or just come out and admit the class is not needed in this game.