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Confused as to why GF's are completely ignored by the dev team
quitegonejin
Member Posts: 3
This class fell so far to the wayside in pve and pvp but is getting literally nothing to help it, it's so confusing as to why they aren't willing to update them with such a huge amount of content otw. Tons of dev activity and posts, tons of buffs and adjustments for all classes and nothing for the one class no one wants in pve or pvp. What gives?
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They do suck in PvE generally tho.
That has not been the case for quite some time.
That, sadly, remains the case.
No, ignored. No communication what-so-ever, despite many many requests from the playerbase. That is the very definition of ignored.
DC is queued in front of you so you must wait till clerics are reworked before you get your buffs and fixes.
GFs are pretty ok.
It's the rest of the classes and the game and the dungeons and everything else that is badly designed :P
apparently you missed where the devs stated all classes were getting looked at for balance. they just haven't gotten to the GFs yet just like they haven't gotten to CWs yet. if i can find the link, i'll post it.
If the content makes the class obsolete, then it is the class.
The fact you have to search for the link, and it isn't stickied in the gf/gwf forums speaks volumns about how informative it was.
"Eh we will get to you eventually GF's". "Suck for 4-6 more months, it's not too much to ask, we think"
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I know I'm going to get flamed for saying this but there really isn't that much wrong with the GF class in PvE. There's 2 main reasons why people mistakenly believe this:
1. The PvE meta-game has evolved into a zerg-AoE-DPS type of play-style. Gather everything up onto the most threatening target and burn everything on top of that target. This play-style is in many cases quickest, most effective, and most reliable. CWs and GWFs are naturally much better at adapting this type of playstyle and thus have become the classes of choice for PvE content, especially in Tier 2+, leaving the remaining classes behind.
2. Everyone is severely over-geared for the content that we have. We don't need GFs to hold aggro because the squishiest class in the game can absorb damage. We don't need healers because the best dps classes in the game can use Lifesteal to heal themselves. You can become powerful enough to enter Castle Never at level 50. We're just too strong and so naturally when choosing members for a dungeon, we only take offensive classes, because that is all we need.
The problem with GFs in PvE (which for the same reasons listed above, also effects HR/TR/DC) lies in the content design of the Epic Dungeons. Not in the design of the classes.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I think the solution lies in enemy intelligence. Have bigger enemies in dungeons change their behaviors based on whether or not they are being effectively tanked. Have enemies deal out fast, massive damage, long range attacks that are really hard to dodge unless there is a tank in front drawing the attacks. The tank can then draw the attention and withstand the attacks so everyone else can light up the enemy. If no tank, make that enemy capable of rapidly crushing squishy players with little chance for them to dodge.
As it is now, all of the enemies that hit hard tend to have attacks that are so slow that they're easy to dodge or they are centered around the enemy. Either way it's a piece of cake for my squishy CW to not get hit by them. And as long as that is the case my squishy-ness is no impediment to my success and a GF's tankiness is not much of an asset to the party. And having mob after mob of 20 melee enemies just makes the class that can clear trash the fastest the most desirable.
We have literally never ran rainbow parties since open beta began.
assuming you mean "we" as in, the general public player base. If you mean "we" as in your friends/your guild then idk what you did, or why you don't do it anymore.
But when I say "we" I mean the general player base, including the LFG channel, common pve standards and practices.
We ran 2 TR, 2 CW, 1 DC groups in beta through launch, bad pugs used 2DC instead of 2TR
insert massive TR nerf, and astral shield nerf
then we ran 1 TR/GWF, 2 CW, 1 DC and "insert any random class but typically a 3rd CW" from launch to mod 2
insert all the short cuts and skips in dungeons getting fixed (which was the only reason to include a TR), and GWF getting buffed to useful via deep gash change (which later is decided is a bug)
Then we ran 2 GWF, 2 CW, 1 DC until present.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Honestly the players ignore the Guardian Fighter. Not the devs. Truth is Guardian Fighters bring a lot to the party but players find stacking Conroe Wizards suits their fancy more...
Then any changes to make the Control Wizard weaker so they can't control as much or more powerful so they can control more will still result in players stacking control wizards.
If you guys stopped stacking Control Wizards you would notice Guardian Fighters are quite great as they are. Sadly the only way the players rs are likely to stop stacking classes is to actually start giving incentives for varied groups and punishments for stacking.
In the end, seriously guys, it is time to start looking at the real problem and stop kidding yourselves about the real cause of this issue.
People stack Control Wizards because Control Wizards are OP. And enough of this misconception that you can't change the CW. Historically every change to the Control wizard has been nerfs to his control and buffs to his damage, which is the opposite of what you need to do to get people to stop stacking control wizards.
1 Control Wizard needs enough control to control all the controllable mobs in a dungeon. If 1 control wizard has that then there is no incentive to bring another control wizard for control purposes. If control wizards aren't also the top damage dealer in the game then there is no incentive to bring more than 1 control wizard to any party.
I provided a solution to balance all classes in both PVE and PVP, as well as give CWs the option of maintaining their damage, or massive control, or a mixture of both. Alas it was instantly derailed by idiot CWs, so at this point, just nerf CW dps into the ground, and buff their control so 1 CW is enough for control for PVE and that super buffed control is PVP viable after you take into consideration tenacity reductions. If you ever hope to balance GF or TR or HR or any other class, you must start with an over the top, game changing nerf to CW damage before you can even see where everything else falls.
By game changing I mean, once you think you've nerfed their Damage enough, put it on PTR. If the majority of CW players aren't threatening to quit the game, then you haven't nerfed it enough, and nerf it more.
If guardian fighters brought a lot to the party, they wouldn't be stacking control wizards. No one here is kidding themselves. There has been NO dev feedback for GF's. in how long? when was the last time a dev talked to GF's?
Last month... You know... When they buffed them... -.-
And as for saying CWs can be changed, sure they could be changed but it wouldn't make players want a Guardian Fighter.
If CWs were nerfed so multiple CWs was not as overpowered it would simply give more reason for CWs to be stacked. If they are buffed so less CWs are needed to have the same power as stacked CWs then it just makes stacked CWs all the more powerful...
GFs do bring good things to a party. They do not enough compared to stacked CWs.
And if they did take one guess what would happen?
It doesn't take a whole lot of intellect to realize that this situation has already come to pass. GWFs were considered useless for months. They finally got enough to be desirable by the main bulk of the players and what happened? They get stacked.
So if GFs ever get enough power to be considered useful over stacked control wizards the only thing that will happen is GFs will be stacked and CWs will get the boot.
The issue is and always has been players would rather stack classes to min/max a group than run mixed compositions.
The reason why CWs are preferred is that you can sweep all enemies into a nice big clump and burn them down with all your AoEs. If the enemies were diversified to the point where no single tactic would work in all cases, then piling on abilities that only work on a fraction of the enemies would be pointless...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Sorry, but you completely ignored intothefades post.
If one cw can control , and there are some uncontrollable big hitters, someone will have to tank them. how to make a GF desirable over gwf, thats additional problem..
How is it players fault for picking optimized group, and not the devs fault that a rainbow group (or close) is NOT the optimized group to do the dungeons ?
if a combination of a TR,CW,GWF,DC,GF would have been faster and easier than a stack, woudn't it be the common pick ?
It's like blaming consumers for not buying <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (not supporting diversity) while there is a better product at the same price !
I dont know how to further point how wrong in my opinion your statement is (and by wrong i mean the statement that it is an issue and not a normal behavior).
Back in the early days of the game the Knight's Captain's Set (whichever T1 set grants bonus stats for the whole party) set effect stacked. This resulted in players actually appreciating Guardian Fighters.
Issue is the appreciation had players doing full Guardian Fighter delves. Literally no other classes.
There was no middle ground. Nobody said having 3 GFs is good enough. The goal was to have 5 for the main bulk of players.
This is exactly what is wrong with team compositions at the moment. Other than a single healer and single dps the rest are interchangeable as add control whether by tanking, burning or enspelling. As long as those classes can be stacked players will min/max the effects and ignore the "less desirable" option.
And while classes would all have equal desirability in an ideal world that's really never going to happen. If GFs get buffed to make them good enough to not stack CWs or GWFs then they will end up stacked themselves.
That or they will control adds so much that HRs and TRs will get stacked and CWs and GWFs are tossed to the wayside.
for me, the biggest problem is the amount of poor adds that we can see in dungeons : the only way to contain them is to have 3 CW with singularity and a gwf tanking (which is quite fun because all tanking is done with lifesteal) all four with freaking dps which make them more desirable than a DF.
simply a question : how are we expected to beat CN draco and valindra (after second clock with all mobs) without having singularity always up? i know this is maybe a mechanic on how beating boss (just see the devs' video about beating draco with pushing), but it completely ruined the game for some classes as GF.
moreover, maybe bosses should be more powerful, an GF would be the only class capable of tanking bosses' attacks.