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CW counter to Unstoppable?

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  • ianthewizard2012ianthewizard2012 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,142 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Sounds to me GWF need more nerfs!
    Anyway, they will be nerfing GWF in module 3. We will see how it goes.

    izidius wrote: »
    Take away unstoppable from GWF and give it to the CW.
    Dude you made me laugh!
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Yea, if a CW had a shield that worked, or an invisibility for 5 secs, or an immunity that could be used then they would have a better chance at possibly surviving. But if you are not on a tower above you will surely be dead soon.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    PLz tell me how a CW avoids Unstoppable?

    I will!

    Try to, not get into melee range, at all with a pyjama wearing class. If you do, maybe by accident dodge the hell away as soon as you can or it's over obviously. Unstoppable only lasts so long, you know? I kill GWF 1on1 on my GF with ease and that is with zero anti CC except a daily. Their prones do not even last that long anymore, you can just get right back up as a CW and DODGE (or whatever that silly slide is called). Threatening rush has a low targetting distance, all it takes to get away is one single dodge... this can't be that hard to understand.

  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Besides, with the upcoming power revamp, CW's will have a 30% damage increase while GWF's are getting severely nerfed.

    Let's not ask for buffs for a class that is broken for so long and about to get an unnecessary damage BUFF already with mod 3, shall we?

  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Besides, with the upcoming power revamp, CW's will have a 30% damage increase while GWF's are getting severely nerfed.

    Let's not ask for buffs for a class that is broken for so long and about to get an unnecessary damage BUFF already with mod 3, shall we?

    Actually, since this is the forum for Preview discussion, and none of these changes have touched Live yet, let's continue to discuss options. Cryptic can and most likely will continue to adjust their IWD build between now and launch.

    Let's not conflate CW PvE performance with CW PvP performance, either. Very different topics.

    As for the conversation about how "easy" it is to avoid Unstoppable, fighting bad GWFs does not count, and neither does fighting them with a class with easy counter-prones and a guard mechanic.... It's also worth mentioning that Destroyer and Sentinel are different animals, and upcoming changes could indeed change the status quo quite a bit. We'll see what Cryptic ends up with by the time M3 launches.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Because YOURS actually works... so does your prones... so does your stuns.

    NONE of mine work anymore... well ok maybe for half a second.

    They've been nerfed into ground because someone just like you probably said it was "unfair" and "unbalanced"

    Well now its the point I can't even play PvP anymore and be competetive.

    So now... go stroke yourself off... all alone... Because I'm not there to be your kill count. You want to play... go play alone. And I can't see why any CW would even bother with it.

    I expect mine to work... the same as yours.

    Who the hell would want to play that kind of game.

    if u did not know prones get bigger nerfs then your cc they lost 30% basic+20% tentacy and all feats who could improve prones on gwf and gf got huge nerf to if anyone should cry on nerf it is gf and gwf we lost with pvp patch the most

    what u want next? cw all ready have tentacy ignored stat what no other class have
  • ianthewizard2012ianthewizard2012 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,142 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    And although they will be trying to calm down the complaints about CW vs GWF by severely nerfing GWF's damage in module 3, that might not be a good direction. Nerfing damage means nerfing performance in all situations, including PvE. After GWF's damage get severely nerfed, players might be only running 4 CW + 1 DC in PvE.

    After all, the complaints about CW vs GWF actually resulted from the unreasonable nerf of CW's cc duration in PvP. To tackle the problem at its roots, CW's cc duration in PvP is the solution.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    let's also not forget that CWs will get their day in court some time after mod 3 drops. when that goes to the test shard, all of you passionate mages need to get in there and test it and provide some solid constructive feedback. savvy?
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I will!

    Try to, not get into melee range, at all with a pyjama wearing class. If you do, maybe by accident dodge the hell away as soon as you can or it's over obviously. Unstoppable only lasts so long, you know? I kill GWF 1on1 on my GF with ease and that is with zero anti CC except a daily. Their prones do not even last that long anymore, you can just get right back up as a CW and DODGE (or whatever that silly slide is called). Threatening rush has a low targetting distance, all it takes to get away is one single dodge... this can't be that hard to understand.

    Yea its that easy... Just don't participate in the game / or just dodge... Yep because he wont use threatening rush, threatening Rush, Threatening rush prone me and kill me. You're right us CWs just ALL need to l2p!
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    let's also not forget that CWs will get their day in court some time after mod 3 drops. when that goes to the test shard, all of you passionate mages need to get in there and test it and provide some solid constructive feedback. savvy?

    Meanwhile we are used as free glory kills? Tenacity doesn't effect any other class in the capacity it does a CW, how can a CW control when tenacity makes all our controls last 0.5 secs? Thats if it hits!
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    And although they will be trying to calm down the complaints about CW vs GWF by severely nerfing GWF's damage in module 3, that might not be a good direction. Nerfing damage means nerfing performance in all situations, including PvE. After GWF's damage get severely nerfed, players might be only running 4 CW + 1 DC in PvE.

    After all, the complaints about CW vs GWF actually resulted from the unreasonable nerf of CW's cc duration in PvP. To tackle the problem at its roots, CW's cc duration in PvP is the solution.



    I do not care how much damage a GWF does, I just want my CC to work also? As of now CW cc lasts 0.5-1 second thats not enough time to use a rotation or even mount up... We have no defense other then CC, we have no immunities, we have no escapes. Just asking for a way to counter it... PvP right now is usually GWF /GWF /GWF /TR /HR ~ CW cant really do anything but die. If we had a daily that allowed us to invisible away, or shield up? we might be able to survive, but right now its hard to be a CW.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    PLs realy on fact CW is one of the stronest of all 6 class .
    And her name is not no chance to figth back cuz i control u all time wizard.
    Also to counter GWF HV sett /P. Plague fire/ Ray on tab /Condult of ice rocks -"if the GWF have 4000 def =48% dmr total"
    the you apply on him first -45%pp -1350 def -ray decrase the mignation too -30 % Condult of ice -15% so even if the gwf have 90 % dmr you negate it to min 20% and if you have some armor pen you can have it on 0% so after i meet some not simple minded CWs they hit on me like a mad track or like TR SE 20k ICE Knife. And this is awesome so dont say to me CWs cant kill GWF this is a lie or your build is not fit for pvp .
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vorphied wrote: »
    Actually, since this is the forum for Preview discussion, and none of these changes have touched Live yet, let's continue to discuss options. Cryptic can and most likely will continue to adjust their IWD build between now and launch.

    Let's not conflate CW PvE performance with CW PvP performance, either. Very different topics.

    As for the conversation about how "easy" it is to avoid Unstoppable, fighting bad GWFs does not count, and neither does fighting them with a class with easy counter-prones and a guard mechanic.... It's also worth mentioning that Destroyer and Sentinel are different animals, and upcoming changes could indeed change the status quo quite a bit. We'll see what Cryptic ends up with by the time M3 launches.

    I am not using any prones, sir... i despise prones as much as you do, trust me. Sure i could prone but i like a challenge. I am aware that PvE and PvP are different things. The problem really seems to be unstoppable's CC immunity not even the 50% dmg reduction. I have a GWF myself i know that it currently does not take alot of skill to be good at it, but i also believe that this is going to change soon.


    * prones could use diminishing returns. First prone = 100% duration, second prone = 50% duration, third = 25%, after that the char becomes inmmune to prones for 5~10 seconds. (champions online has this already)


    Am i being constructive now, or what? lmao

  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    PLs realy on fact CW is one of the stronest of all 6 class .
    And her name is not no chance to figth back cuz i control u all time wizard.
    Also to counter GWF HV sett /P. Plague fire/ Ray on tab /Condult of ice rocks -"if the GWF have 4000 def =48% dmr total"
    the you apply on him first -45%pp -1350 def -ray decrase the mignation too -30 % Condult of ice -15% so even if the gwf have 90 % dmr you negate it to min 20% and if you have some armor pen you can have it on 0% so after i meet some not simple minded CWs they hit on me like a mad track or like TR SE 20k ICE Knife. And this is awesome so dont say to me CWs cant kill GWF this is a lie or your build is not fit for pvp .


    Plaguefire has no clarification on if the Mitigation stacks or if its just the fire. So 15% with a greater, Armor Pen only effects 6 of our spells some never used in pvp. I'm pvp geared 14666 gs, Thaum spec usually using Shard. Doing damage to a GWF is not the issue we cannot maintain any damage unless of course we are on a bridge. GWF will run to you and be immune during which they do not waste CC's they go all out... Only after Unstoppable do they prone chain you to death.

    Our CC you speak of lasts 0.5 -1.0 seconds go try it with your buddy.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I am not using any prones, sir... i despise prones as much as you do, trust me. Sure i could prone but i like a challenge. I am aware that PvE and PvP are different things. The problem really seems to be unstoppable's CC immunity not even the 50% dmg reduction. I have a GWF myself i know that it currently does not take alot of skill to be good at it, but i also believe that this is going to change soon.


    * prones could use diminishing returns. First prone = 100% duration, second prone = 50% duration, third = 25%, after that the char becomes inmmune to prones for 5~10 seconds. (champions online has this already)


    Am i being constructive now, or what? lmao


    Well finally some truth!
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    GWF are ridiculously hard to kill with there Mobility, Defense, Damage, and Regeneration its to much!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x697kT8hDYs
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Plaguefire has no clarification on if the Mitigation stacks or if its just the fire. So 15% with a greater, Armor Pen only effects 6 of our spells some never used in pvp. I'm pvp geared 14666 gs, Thaum spec usually using Shard. Doing damage to a GWF is not the issue we cannot maintain any damage unless of course we are on a bridge. GWF will run to you and be immune during which they do not waste CC's they go all out... Only after Unstoppable do they prone chain you to death.

    Our CC you speak of lasts 0.5 -1.0 seconds go try it with your buddy.

    First PF works ask other gwfs why all of them roll from P.vorpal to PF.
    Cuz its good agans Combat HR Perma and GWF .And not soo good aganst CW GF DC.
    Also i know armor pen is not work with all spells but the mignation from skill works.
    And you need only to debuff GWF and play wise not waiste you encounters and doges and also dont use so many at wills .
    Realy i have seen CW halfling Frodo duo rocking aganst 5 premade GWF they end up 30kill -2death ofc the 5 GWF lose to 1000-484 . All was ower 16k GS . The stregth is in debuff if a GWF have 30 k hp whit 0 Dmr and the cw have 30 k hp whit 30% dmr the cw will win no matter of prone also cw have more the 2 prones if you want realy prone build ( but agan i as i say this will not rock). I hope one day you meet the duo then you will see how is this working ,killin GWF in 2 sec no matter how strong is he.

    Ps_: I aslo try it whit my wife CW ofc she is not a hobbit but have all req gear for it i end up 20-3 this is a good score from cw .
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Yes but smashing pugs and low geared players while being pocket healed from a DC is not hard nor a comparison of viability! Evenly geared skilled GWF will roll over a CW with almost no resistance... No matter how good the CW outplays the GWF, the GWF will still win and thats not right.
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vorphied wrote: »
    Let's not conflate CW PvE performance with CW PvP performance, either. Very different topics.
    This is probably the most important thing people should remember when making posts on these type of topics, and that goes for all classes. :cool:
    va8Ru.gif
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You see how us GF's and the gwf's have an at will gap closer? maybe a cw should have an at will spell like blink. Just food for thought.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Yes but smashing pugs and low geared players while being pocket healed from a DC is not hard nor a comparison of viability! Evenly geared skilled GWF will roll over a CW with almost no resistance... No matter how good the CW outplays the GWF, the GWF will still win and thats not right.

    Ofc every Graded GWF will kill every evenly CW .
    But what you say is not true Graded cw easly kill evenly graded GWF (ofc he must know how to play ) and yes its not fair .
    But this is the point the huge canon vs Blue and HAMSTER Purple gear VS legendary artifacts rank 10 enchants perfect weapon and armor enchants and bis gear.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • silverquicksilverquick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    And although they will be trying to calm down the complaints about CW vs GWF by severely nerfing GWF's damage in module 3, that might not be a good direction. Nerfing damage means nerfing performance in all situations, including PvE. After GWF's damage get severely nerfed, players might be only running 4 CW + 1 DC in PvE.

    After all, the complaints about CW vs GWF actually resulted from the unreasonable nerf of CW's cc duration in PvP. To tackle the problem at its roots, CW's cc duration in PvP is the solution.

    I agree,

    Nerfing GWF damage was BAD idea its just going to cause more problems than it solves and make PvE even worse,

    .... nor do I want to see Unstopable nerfed, I think THATS just stupid *** for tat stuff that won't do anything except gimp EVERYONE.

    And how fun is that really??

    I am however EXTREMELY incensed that certain people were such pussies they needed an insta win button, because their "feelings" got hurt... so obviously it HAD to be "unbalanced"...

    I would rather just see the nerfs undone to the CW in PVP so at least it will be an even field again... because right now... its not.

    The "nerf to balance" became the "nerf to unbalance" in a big hurry. So now its just one class able to use everything at its disposal vs the other one who is literally fighting with one hand behind their back... and not ALLOWED to compete.

    That is ludicrous.

    And I'm NOT going to get in there and even bother with it... I am not going to sit here and walk out onto the field so you can have your kill score because YOU didn't like my abillity to fight back and wanted just a weak little target for your kill score.
  • schweifer1982schweifer1982 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Actualy CWs asked for nerfing GWF now all other 5 class figth back see the result from the DEVS.
    They want the Dmg Tone done a huge amount .
    So all nerf from crying cws will be reflected to her selfs. Ofc i am not happy but i think after this will no one call wolf cuz when you call it more and more time one day the wolf will come to you and bite out somthing from you.
    GWF 3700Ilvl Éjsötét & ProPala 3200Ilvl Menydörgés (main) & Szürkefarkas 2600 ilvl
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Actualy CWs asked for nerfing GWF now all other 5 class figth back see the result from the DEVS.
    They want the Dmg Tone done a huge amount .
    So all nerf from crying cws will be reflected to her selfs. Ofc i am not happy but i think after this will no one call wolf cuz when you call it more and more time one day the wolf will come to you and bite out somthing from you.

    Nerfs should be called for only when there are no other reasonable options, like when something is so obviously out of line with the rest of the game that scaling it back is much more realistic than trying to scale literally everything else up to its level.

    IMO this is not the situation with GWF. I have no desire to see the class get direct nerfs; I would much rather that CWs see their PvP toolbox tweaked or expanded to make their role more useful. In the current meta, not only is the CW the easiest class to kill, their damage is mediocre and their CC rendered inferior due to everyone having buckets of control resist, 100% resist glitches abounding, and their only prone encounter being so telegraphed that a specific setup and lack of interruption is necessary for it to work. CC resist penetration alone is clearly not doing the job.

    I thought the earlier comment about CW damage potential being high was interesting because you can't achieve that kind of damage without sacrificing most of what survivability you have. Glass cannon CWs work poorly in PvP except as PUGstompers or when expertly defended by their teams. Generally they just aren't practical against even competition.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • ripyourlipsoffripyourlipsoff Member Posts: 1,552 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Actualy CWs asked for nerfing GWF now all other 5 class figth back see the result from the DEVS.
    They want the Dmg Tone done a huge amount .
    So all nerf from crying cws will be reflected to her selfs. Ofc i am not happy but i think after this will no one call wolf cuz when you call it more and more time one day the wolf will come to you and bite out somthing from you.


    Whos asking for nerfs? I facetiously said sounds like GWF need more nerfs but I am not asking for anything to be changed on GWF, all we want is the CW to either get their control back or a counter to unstoppable!
    Shieldbash 60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard 19.0k
    Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
    ==========================================


    ~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
  • dreamhuntressxdreamhuntressx Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    This thread is not going anywhere, no matter what or hpw its being discussed, as MANY other past threads, with the same topic, buried in the depts of this forum.

    But then someone had to delate the true evil:
    nemesao wrote: »
    The real problem is that GWF have got GF at-will called Threatening Rush. This at-will ****ed CW up no matter what we do now, we just cant kite em. (...)

    CWs can fight '1v1' equally geared GWFs with a 50/50 win/loss ratio (maybe 30/70 if the CW is terribad or 60/40 if using the cheap meatball combo), but ONLY if the GWf is SM. Against a IV GWF, better get used to respawn...
    Leanan Sidhe (not "The Dresde Files" fairy!) - NW Legit Channel Moderator
  • proneificationproneification Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 494 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    To recapitulate contents of this topic:

    - a destro GWF afraid that Unstoppable gonna be nerfed for PvP. Wait what? Destro in PvP. This is like going with PvE CW in PvP and saying "people kill me in my bad spec, but nerf them, I don't wanna change".
    - a PvE GWF explaining his successes in PUG PvP with his wife's badly specced/geared toon (spec is on Youtube for anybody to see, and is a joke). That CW would not last 5 seconds against my properly specced and played PvP GWF.
    - a former GF that complained about CWs being overpowered. Now he rolls a CW, and complains about CWs being undepowered
    - last but not least, a person that thinks the meatball combo, for some unknown reason... is cheap

    Should I go on?
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    To recapitulate contents of this topic:

    - a destro GWF afraid that Unstoppable gonna be nerfed for PvP. Wait what? Destro in PvP. This is like going with PvE CW in PvP and saying "people kill me in my bad spec, but nerf them, I don't wanna change".
    - a PvE GWF explaining his successes in PUG PvP with his wife's badly specced/geared toon (spec is on Youtube for anybody to see, and is a joke). That CW would not last 5 seconds against my properly specced and played PvP GWF.
    - a former GF that complained about CWs being overpowered. Now he rolls a CW, and complains about CWs being undepowered
    - last but not least, a person that thinks the meatball combo, for some unknown reason... is cheap

    Should I go on?

    Meatball is only cheap when I get killed by it :p
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    GWF are ridiculously hard to kill with there Mobility, Defense, Damage, and Regeneration its to much!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x697kT8hDYs


    Mobility is a given, however Defence, Damage, Regen, etc are not class restricted attributes but STATs or depend ot stats. Every class can manipulate them anyway they want. If I build my Destroyer to have 4000 crit and 7000 power and then that GWF kills you in 2 hits will you complain that GWFs are OP ? You'll be wrong. Being capable of such single target dmg output requires alot of gear -> time invested in the game( or money ). You cannot complain about the way people have developed their character. Even with the upcoming changes in Mod 3 I'm pretty sure my 16GS with full pvp armor set GWF will still be seen as OP by 90% of players who dont know what to do against it.
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I just love how delusional so many of NVW players are regarding the Destroyer in PVP. I was always a Destroyer from back in the day when they were weak and unwanted till present day. The only thing that really owned me in PVP would be a Sentinel, everything else is fair game. And for the record my toon is not a rank 10/perfect enchants toon either.
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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