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Most important PvP change still hasn't happened - Pugs and Premades should never mix
errantvolley
Member Posts: 46 Arc User
No ranking system or gear score system is going to balance Pugs effectively with premades. If a group queues with any friends they need to be in a premade only queue. The coordination gap and composition gap is practically unbridgeable if even two friends are playing together.
To implement this properly you would have to solve the synch queueing/popping trick so we don't get around the separate queues.
This does mean the two buddies that want to play together will end up facing stiffer competition. That is fair, though. Playing with your friend is already a competitive advantage. The only group really hurt by this are the pug stompers.
Honestly all the effort around class balance and tenacity was probably unnecessary if this change happened first. Hopefully we will see it soon.
To implement this properly you would have to solve the synch queueing/popping trick so we don't get around the separate queues.
This does mean the two buddies that want to play together will end up facing stiffer competition. That is fair, though. Playing with your friend is already a competitive advantage. The only group really hurt by this are the pug stompers.
Honestly all the effort around class balance and tenacity was probably unnecessary if this change happened first. Hopefully we will see it soon.
Post edited by errantvolley on
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CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
^^That would help.
I'm not sure I'm keen on OPs idea unless it was only an option.
Seems like me and a freind would wait forever to find a matching 3-man group to fill the queue in this forced-pre-made world.
What about re-queueing with a good pug group you like? You'd end up in Thunderdome on your second run.
However, I'd like to see a queue made just for people with fuzzy green hats - the real scourge of Neverwinter ;-)
And, if there actually was a elo system, you'd get results like in the first week they attempted to launch it, with players on the higher end of the spectrum waiting 30+ minutes for a match, only to be paired with the same 2-3 enemy teams in 1-2 hour long matches.
Not enough people actively playing to warrant or sustain a matchmaking system.
They always have the choice to individually queue.
Basically premade and show your skills or solo queue and pvp with RNG teams. The pug stomping just ruins the game.
Yes a pug can beat a premade but they are at a huge disadvantage. If two geared gwfs, trs, etc queue together nothing the matchmaking system does will balance the resulting team. And, of course, the groups of 4 and 5 are well beyond anything a pug group can handle because they will usually go 4v1 5v1 the entire match on the one or two pug players that are any good. That simple focus prevents any response that a pug can organize.
Even mixed gear score is less important and less ruinous the pvp fun the mixing premades with pugs.
then i can modify my build for 12 gs and play only lower bracket and that is what most 7,8 rank player like me would do leaving higher bracket with rank 10 premades which are few.
I respectfully disagree with pretty much all of this. Everyone has the option to queue as a group, if you don't want to pug against a premade, find a group. Also, while we do enjoy premades a lot, it does get old. Every now and again a match against pugs is a fun change up from 1-1/2 long matches.
My question is this: why should we ruin one group's fun to increase another's?
That being said, I am all for the GS separation, just don't want to have to premade to play with friends =/
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Gear does not equate to skill so no. the only fair way is by win/loss. Someone (like me) can have a sub caliber build + handicap (my hand does not work correctly) but they have played long enough to aquire gear. (even if you lose every match, eventually you will get good gear) and putting them in a high bracket is unfair to them, and the people they are pugging with.
Anyhow, what PvP needs is a Surrender-option. Why and how a match was lost and who is to blame is really uninteresting, but when everyone then stands around the fire and the crying starts is it too late. If only one could end a match by surrendering to the other side, for whatever reason, and end the matches fast then everyone could get on quicker and there would be a lot less idle crying and finger pointing at the fires.
But of course the PVPers will all now come to the forums and say "but I juuuuust want to play with a few friends!!!!" (who all, by the way, have BiS gear and perfect enchants and Emblems, but hey, it's just a "casual match", right?)
The retort of "but I just want to play with friends!" is code for "but I want to retain the ability to farm glory from pugs by roflstomping them into the ground".
do you even pvp regularly? Nothing is more frustrating to me when I pvp then to rofl stomp another team. It is not fun. you think way to highly of yourself if you think for one minute that a pvp guild enjoys playing against a pug that knows little to nothing about what they are doing.
Frustrating?
I can understand how you might be bored, or how you might think it is a waste of time.
But how exactly is it *frustrating* to roflstomp pugs? You don't really have to do anything. You show up, you blow them up, they all die, you are barely scratched, they all decide to AFK in spawn, you then have nothing to do. I'm failing to see how that is "frustrating".
And to be honest, yeah, I do think there are quite a few PVPers who do enjoy griefing and smashing pugs because either they are farming glory, or they derive some sick pleasure from humiliating others.
It's even been mentioned by other PVPers that they don't want every match to be a 1.5-hr grueling struggle against other premades, they also want quick 15-minute matches. Well guess what, that is when you are roflstomping pugs.
Because i pvp for the challenge. Why do you pvp?
Fine - if a match does not present any challenge to you, I can understand why you would not want to sit through such a match because it is a waste of time. I don't see how it is frustrating or harmful to you in any way though. Now for the stompees, yeah, I have a great deal of sympathy because they should never have been matched against your premade in the first place. But please, you aren't exactly overburdened when the fighting in a match takes all of 1 minute because you so clearly dominate the other team.
It's frustrating because it is wasted time. And believe me when i say that i am on the losing side quite often. I am no pvp master by any means. I understand how to win, but my skill level is not up to par with making it happen every time. Nothing brings me more satisfaction in a match, then to get into really good 1v1's against good players. win or lose, it is fun.
I am a gf. its all i play. My name in game is Tai'Ma. Play against me and you will get a good fight. Play with me and you will get a good teammate. And fyi i have never once been in a premade. I only ever pug.
I don't want to always premade but pugging and being placed with people who have no idea what is going on makes me so mad that I borderline have a stroke. I didn't farm/pay for BiS everything to have the choice between 1-1/2 long matches or playing with people who don't know the game. The reality is, the premades that are running around wanted to get better so they could win at PvP because they enjoy it..
So no. I don't want it changed because running in a 4 man against pugs is just plain entertaining because of how funny it is
As it stands now though, if you need glory, it is simply more time efficient to stomp lesser geared players. The system encourages and enables it.
The only fun I get out of it (if you can call it that), are the hodgepodge skill choices and tactics the pugs use.
Why would career PVPers want to farm glory? Once you have your PVP (BiS) gear, you don't need glory anymore. PVPers PVP so they can have fun. PVEers PVP so they can farm. Usually, the PVEers are the pugs.
That being said, I'm all for a separate queue system, although I'd request it to be either optional, or for 3+ people queuing together. I don't consider 2 people queuing together a premade. Also, what would happen to the people who queue with 4? If it's not optional there is no way for them to get in.
The only thing premades mean is that you have friends to play pvp with.
Jugger Conq GF
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CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
agreed , you should be placed by average skill of group, not by simply being in a group.
I've been a longtime supporter of dividing premades and pugs or competitive and casual play, but recent weeks showed you can't further split the payer pool. They had to tune down the matchmaking because of long queue times to a point that nowadays you can again hop on and off matches and will be provided with laughable wins eventually. On some days I would even go as far as saying that the difference between pre and post patch is slim to non-existent. If you now go and make different tiers for parties/solo and/or gear score, the queue times will blow up again and they probably have to adjust matchmaking yet again.
This. If you can't fix matchmaking at least give us a option of not suffering from it.
That is how it is most of the time.
About time someone said it like it REALLY is.
until they add a pug(solo) queue its a lopsided pvp game were premades farm pugs.
Premades should have to face other premades not get a handout for the easy win against pugs.
Sure there are some premades that want to actually face other premades for a challenge,but that is rare.Most of the time they just want a free ride.
Also, during pugging, ran into some cool people. Two were from the same guild, everyone else separate guilds but the cleric. The cleric was 5k gs. FIVE K. We won one. We chatted afterwards a bit (imagine that) and it mainly revolved around getting that cleric some better gear. I chipped in some pvp cleric gear, as did the others, gave him a stack of rank 5's (which he thought was amazing, but really for me are just arty fodder). The one guy who seemed like a leader type was actually coaching this dude and the guy was listening. We played another 8 matches and won 7 of them. The 5k guy ended with a gs around 10k and is turning into a solid pvp cleric. So I guess this was a pug that turned into a premade. In the course of it, we each made new friends, learned some things, and had a blast.
What is so hard about that? If you are nice to people and social, and not a jerk, you get friends. Which become a premade. It seems so natural that it is almost odd that it isnt a more normal outcome.
Jugger Conq GF
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It is a punishment when 1 out of every 30 groups of five people is an actual premade and so when you q as 5 it can take a long time to get a match.
Jugger Conq GF
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Nothing I can do about it though. It is what it is.
Sure that happens but its rare and thats why its special.but most of the time its pugs getting farmed by premades.
we all try to help each other its what makes this game fun.but the reality is extreme unbalance and easy farming of pug by premades.
Its so unbalanced when you have and organized formed group of players all on voice chat vs a unorganized group of players that can hardly even speak the same language and some are new to the game.
The ones that are very new are mostly pugs or badazz players looking for a challenge .
the ones that played a while have good gear and know the game plus have time to form a premade.
so you end up usually with under geared noobs that dont know the game facing better geared players that know the game and are formed in a premade group that knows each other semi well or very well.
This adds up to a lopsided match almost every time.
very rarely do you get the chance to have a game Overdrive had. its almost like planets lining up.
A good premade that wants a challenge is bored facing a pug and a pug is frustrated facing a pemade,
The reality IS thats what is happening 90% of the time.
IT NEEDS FIXING>