In PvP, our At Wills won't do much if anything, so if you want to use your encounters often, you need recovery.
(And in PvE, the GF feels slow but useful all the way until a few days or weeks in level 60, when you're starting to be geared up and will feel your limitations)
Olaf, freelance guardian fighter.
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
Just started this class so I could feel GF's pain.
Aware me on recovery for GF, why do you stack it?
Recovery lowers your Encounter Cooldowns so they are up more, also it helps your AP gain so your daily (a Prone not SoS you silly GF's) comes up more (very quick with GF even w/o stacking Recovery)
Our encounters help us close gaps, do damage, and survive (prones) so they are very very important. To me my encounters help me survive more than anything else so I take points out of defensive stats and put them in recovery.
I also am a realistic GF and know that 1v1 I'm probably not going to kill anybody who has similar gear/skill. So me surviving till a DPS rotates, and then having the tools to help the DPS get their burst off by proning the enemy is very important. In fact its really the only job a GF has in PvP that he excels at.
However bottom line is, in its current state, GF can be replaced in PvP by almost any class and be just as, or more, useful. This is why you really have to pay attention, rotate QUICKLY and be where you're needed all the times.
You need to realize your roll and not run around trying to beef up your score, because if your K/D and score is high, you're probably not doing your job too well. I never stay to cap a point or get the Killing Blow if someone else is on it, I move forward with my prones and protect it so the DPS on the point can get the cap/kill. Then he moves forward and we kill again. Good way to grab some points.
3. Think for yourself. Don't treat anyone's word as gospel. Not mine, not anyone you see in game, not famous GFs like AntMonster, no one. Everyone can make mistakes, and the person who knows your play style best is you. Do your own research.
4. Right now in Domination PvP the winner is who gets the most capture points, not the most kills. Don't sell yourself short if you're doing a good job stalling for your team. I've seen plenty of games where the people who got the most kills actually lost the match.
5. Don't be afraid to experiment a little. Nearly all GFs use Lunging Strike and Bull Rush, but the best third slot is up for debate. Some people like Anvil of Doom, some people like Frontline Surge, some people like Knight's Challenge, and some people like Griffon's Wrath. It will depend a lot on your play style and build, and again, no one knows this better than you.
6. Psychology is playing a major role in how people feel about the GF. Mathematically the GF is underpowered, but not garbage at all. Again, this is why it's important to think for yourself.
This post is MONEY! Well said, amigo
HAMSTER, level 60 GF, "Bloodthirsty" since Mod 2 Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
Anvil of doom does not really help your team, griffons wraith kinda does I guess, Knight's Challenge defiantly does not.
In 1v1 will any of these skills give you the edge? I can't see how, regardless of play style.
Frontline Surge helps your teammates by proning the enemy, and applying the bronze debuff, which in turn helps your team kill, keeps your team safe, keeps you safe, and provides the condition that is required for your feats/feature to give you more DPS.
Yes you can use other encounters if you like or if you feel they fit your play style better, are they optimal? No, FLS beats them out in nearly every way. The only thing it is missing is DPS but, the only encounter that does more is only usable when the enemy is low on health, and let's face it... If you have someone low on health as a GF, you don't need anvil to finish them, a water balloon will probably do =P
I can see how GW might be attractive, but even though it's a short stun and spammable, it does not prone so you're losing the DPS boost from trample and all those other great feats you picked up because all the alternatives are just meh.
My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.
Anvil of doom does not really help your team, griffons wraith kinda does I guess, Knight's Challenge defiantly does not.
In 1v1 will any of these skills give you the edge? I can't see how, regardless of play style.
Frontline Surge helps your teammates by proning the enemy, and applying the bronze debuff, which in turn helps your team kill, keeps your team safe, keeps you safe, and provides the condition that is required for your feats/feature to give you more DPS.
Yes you can use other encounters if you like or if you feel they fit your play style better, are they optimal? No, FLS beats them out in nearly every way. The only thing it is missing is DPS but, the only encounter that does more is only usable when the enemy is low on health, and let's face it... If you have someone low on health as a GF, you don't need anvil to finish them, a water balloon will probably do =P
I can see how GW might be attractive, but even though it's a short stun and spammable, it does not prone so you're losing the DPS boost from trample and all those other great feats you picked up because all the alternatives are just meh.
My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.
I like anvil of doom maybe because I am sentimental. Reckless = 2x power, anvil = 2x damage to anything half or below hp, trample = extra damage to things already cc'd....I am just a fan of it.
Everything else you said I totally agree with. GW is good for leveling through pvp until you get fls. My rotation at 60 (now) would probably be bull rush/lunging strike-fls-anvil. Maybe replacing anvil at times with either lunging or bulls.
I used different skills till now and often I use Frontline Surge, Lunging Strike and Bull Charge; sometimes I replaced Lunging Strike with Into the Fray (great movability but you always get short of damage close before your enemy is down and then his aid comes in); or replaced with Iron Warrior (useful for defending a point but it is as slow as Into the Fray and you need more time to get your enemy down); and replaced with Griffon's Wrath (useful but only a minor disturbance for your enemy since Tenacity); and as for Anvil of Doom, I am tempted to use a feated one to give it a minor stun but -- 5 points for it seems too much for me.
I run lunging Strike/ Anvil of Doom / Frontline Surge, I sometimes change Lunging for Bull Rush however I find it hard to get the hit on them after as it knocks them so **** far back even if I immediately Threatening Rush they are getting up by the time I get there defeating my trample the fallen crushing pin bonus damage.
I swap Ferocious Reaction / Trample the Fallen depending on other team make up. Always running Combat Superiority!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Anvil of doom does not really help your team, griffons wraith kinda does I guess, Knight's Challenge defiantly does not.
In 1v1 will any of these skills give you the edge? I can't see how, regardless of play style.
Frontline Surge helps your teammates by proning the enemy, and applying the bronze debuff, which in turn helps your team kill, keeps your team safe, keeps you safe, and provides the condition that is required for your feats/feature to give you more DPS.
Yes you can use other encounters if you like or if you feel they fit your play style better, are they optimal? No, FLS beats them out in nearly every way. The only thing it is missing is DPS but, the only encounter that does more is only usable when the enemy is low on health, and let's face it... If you have someone low on health as a GF, you don't need anvil to finish them, a water balloon will probably do =P
I can see how GW might be attractive, but even though it's a short stun and spammable, it does not prone so you're losing the DPS boost from trample and all those other great feats you picked up because all the alternatives are just meh.
My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.
How are you losing the DPS from Trample with GW? The stun is a bit short, but if you have someone cornered you can land 2 of them and they'd both be boosted. Heck if you bull rush someone into a wall or a friendly cw is using entangled you can land all 3, fully boosted.
I'm pretty sure the cast time is longer than the stun, especially with tenacity.
So you are getting MAYBE, the first hit of GW buffed by TtF IF you proned them first, but you had better hope you were close when you proned them because you are going to have a Hard time getting to them and getting off GW before they are up again. If it's a class with any dodges I guarantee they are spamming dodge while proned so not only will the hit not be buffed by a control effect, it's probably going to get dodged as well, and you have no ranged prone left to get ahold of them again because you dumped it to pick up GW.
As for your CW example, yes you'll get the bonus if they are being entangled or w/e, but if there is a CW there your DPS is not needed. Your prones are, so that they can't get up and destroy the CW while you are hitting them for 3k and applying your bull**** .0001 second stun.
Tenacity made killing anything in PvP as a GF very difficult. I tried BC, KC, GW, Daily combo, it can do a lot of damage!
Having said that you will rarely get this combo off in an actual match,even against pugs. And you are completely useless when not getting this combo off.
The point isent really what you're getting with GW, it's what your losing. And you're losing a prone, which is the only thing we have left that's even remotely useful.
So once again. You need to build your GF, and use the GF encounters that help you do your job in PvP. Currently that is assisting others to kill via PRONES, or protecting others... Via prones.
Does other stuff work? Yes. Does it work as well? No.
Why I slot Anvil of Doom over Frontline is because I like the finishing power of that encounter. If my Lunging, Bull Charge & Indomitable rotation drops you down to 25% health you are in trouble. I've blasted GWFs through their Unstoppable with Anvil. It is all well and good chain-proning but how are you actually gonna hurt them? Also, I PUG almost exclusively, so I cannot rely on my team coming to assist me. Smarter players also make landing Frontline difficult. They know the common GF rotation so they just jump around in circles. I've wasted Frontline far more often than Anvil. Bull Charge at least offers you a target lock, hence that over Frontline. Anvil is also nice for getting rid of pesky CWs in a hurry. Even if the are above 25% health Anvil can rip huge chunks out of them.
The full prone rotation is ideal for a coordinated team, I won't dispute that. But as for pugging, I'm doing just fine with Anvil.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Why I slot Anvil of Doom over Frontline is because I like the finishing power of that encounter. If my Lunging, Bull Charge & Indomitable rotation drops you down to 25% health you are in trouble. I've blasted GWFs through their Unstoppable with Anvil. It is all well and good chain-proning but how are you actually gonna hurt them? Also, I PUG almost exclusively, so I cannot rely on my team coming to assist me. Smarter players also make landing Frontline difficult. They know the common GF rotation so they just jump around in circles. I've wasted Frontline far more often than Anvil. Bull Charge at least offers you a target lock, hence that over Frontline.
The full prone rotation is ideal for a coordinated team, I won't dispute that. But as for pugging, I'm doing just fine with Anvil.
*shrug* suit yourself.
Just one more quick comment. If you are able to get anything to 30% health you do not need the damage from Anvil, they are improperly geared/built and slapping them with a wet noodle would be just as effective. Just sayen
If running around with your group and holding your encounters till the enemy is at 30% then stealing the kill is your bag, than I think anvil probably is the way to go.
Speaking of which! I was in a match the other day, I had 3 kills and around 30 assists. I was playing my GWF.
So yes if you want to be like one of the TRs who use lashing, or the DPS Clerics, or the CW that holds their daily until enemy is at 2% health, then yes, slot Anvil.
This may seem harsh but it's usually the reason pugs think they are doing "just fine". Kills don't mean a thing, don't waste your time or abilities trying to steal them.
Also want to point out that if you're missing frontline on good players, then practice with frontline when it's not so critical to land it (I.e. against Pugs) would probably be something you might want to look into.
Just one more quick comment. If you are able to get anything to 30% health you do not need the damage from Anvil, they are improperly geared/built and slapping them with a wet noodle would be just as effective. Just sayen
If running around with your group and holding your encounters till the enemy is at 30% then stealing the kill is your bag, than I think anvil probably is the way to go.
Speaking of which! I was in a match the other day, I had 3 kills and around 30 assists. I was playing my GWF.
So yes if you want to be like one of the TRs who use lashing, or the DPS Clerics, or the CW that holds their daily until enemy is at 2% health, then yes, slot Anvil.
This may seem harsh but it's usually the reason pugs think they are doing "just fine". Kills don't mean a thing, don't waste your time or abilities trying to steal them.
Why is unfathomable that a GF can dish out pain on its own? 4k power, 1000 crit, 1400 arpen, GBronzewood, I'm hardly pillow-fisted. I've also seen GFs in PVP that stack superior offensive stats. I've been wiped out by them too. I myself hit harder before I switched from Grim Conqueror to Profound Preserver, at which point my Anvil hit even harder than it does now.
I can and do 1v1 every class. Granted certain classes at a certain gear level are beyond me, but I most certainly do not lurk around waiting to burst into a half dead opponent and steal me a kill as you'd like to think I do. Another thing I do is purposely run around my DC/squishies if they are being targeted in an attempt to divert the enemy's focus towards me. I am a GF, I sit where it is hot, not lurk around in the shadows waiting to butter my kill-score.
And as I am always on or near a node, then yes, a high number of kills & assists mean I am either helping to take or keep nodes.
Also want to point out that if you're missing frontline on good players, then practice with frontline when it's not so critical to land it (I.e. against Pugs) would probably be something you might want to look into.
I fight smart players far more often than lowbies. The Halfling (makes it doubly harder to prone anyway) brigades that never stand still. Rather get my BC lock, Lunging burst, IS prone and Anvil closer. It all works for me and I will continue to use that. I've tried full prone rotation and I personally do not like it. My damage output is reduced and my chances of blowing an encounter were higher.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I can and do 1v1 every class. Granted certain classes at a certain gear level are beyond me, but I most certainly do not lurk around waiting to burst into a half dead opponent and steal me a kill as you'd like to think I do. Another thing I do is purposely run around my DC/squishies if they are being targeted in an attempt to divert the enemy's focus towards me. I am a GF, I sit where it is hot, not lurk around in the shadows waiting to butter my kill-score.
Glad to hear it man, sounds like you have a good handle on things. Just carry on like this doesn't apply to you.
For everyone else, I greatly discourage the use of Anvil in PvP for the reasons I stated above.
This may seem harsh but it's usually the reason pugs think they are doing "just fine". Kills don't mean a thing, don't waste your time or abilities trying to steal them.
This can't be repeated often enough. Frequently it is the GF's lot to repeatedly die by trolling the enemy team (or most of the enemy team) en masse at a point, while your team mates go and cap the other points in relative safety.
This does depend on your colleagues being smart enough to actually cap under-defended or undefended points, as you can only be in one place at a time.
I lose track of how many times I have asked PUGgers to actually cap while I repeatedly tie up 3+ enemies, usually at mid. Instead they prefer to farm kills next to red points, apparently not understanding how the game works. Even polite entreaties to go and stand on the points are generally met by "yeah, says the newb with the lowest score", or something even more unprintable. After a while, they will notice that they're 300+ points behind and then start afking.
Obviously, a variant of this is when the rentapony wonders all turtle up at their own point, and don't understand why having at least two is important- with similar reactions when you ask them to stop doing that and help.
There isn't a leaver penalty severe enough to stop you just bailing after a few minutes of that, as wasting your time on kill farmers and the like makes The Baby Jesus angry.
This can't be repeated often enough. Frequently it is the GF's lot to repeatedly die by trolling the enemy team (or most of the enemy team) en masse at a point, while your team mates go and cap the other points in relative safety.
This does depend on your colleagues being smart enough to actually cap under-defended or undefended points, as you can only be in one place at a time.
I lose track of how many times I have asked PUGgers to actually cap while I repeatedly tie up 3+ enemies, usually at mid. Instead they prefer to farm kills next to red points, apparently not understanding how the game works. Even polite entreaties to go and stand on the points are generally met by "yeah, says the newb with the lowest score", or something even more unprintable. After a while, they will notice that they're 300+ points behind and then start afking.
Obviously, a variant of this is when the rentapony wonders all turtle up at their own point, and don't understand why having at least two is important- with similar reactions when you ask them to stop doing that and help.
There isn't a leaver penalty severe enough to stop you just bailing after a few minutes of that, as wasting your time on kill farmers and the like makes The Baby Jesus angry.
Ahh there are so few PvPers left on these forums it's really refreshing to see someone posting that actually gets it.
I am always lowest score when I'm pugging, why? Because I'm too busy winning the match for you to worry about getting KB's or staying on an uncontested node until it's capped.
And to everyone who says "it's pug PvP I just want points, not like it's a premade". I do everything the same in every match. You know why premades win? Cause they play like premades, this works against pugs too believe it or not... :rolleyes:
Glad to hear it man, sounds like you have a good handle on things. Just carry on like this doesn't apply to you.
For everyone else, I greatly discourage the use of Anvil in PvP for the reasons I stated above.
Fair enough, but after saying this; ''My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.'', I got a little agitated that you proceeded to rubbish another's opinion on changing it up rotation wise. Full chain prone works for you and probably the majority of GFs in PVP, but it does not work for me. I also know of others that prefer Griffon's over both Anvil and one of BC or FLS. Because of this I see no problem in experimenting with your third encounter so long as you have at least one prone and a gap closer.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Just one more quick comment. If you are able to get anything to 30% health you do not need the damage from Anvil, they are improperly geared/built and slapping them with a wet noodle would be just as effective. Just sayen
If running around with your group and holding your encounters till the enemy is at 30% then stealing the kill is your bag, than I think anvil probably is the way to go.
Speaking of which! I was in a match the other day, I had 3 kills and around 30 assists. I was playing my GWF.
So yes if you want to be like one of the TRs who use lashing, or the DPS Clerics, or the CW that holds their daily until enemy is at 2% health, then yes, slot Anvil.
This may seem harsh but it's usually the reason pugs think they are doing "just fine". Kills don't mean a thing, don't waste your time or abilities trying to steal them.
That's just not true, the GF at wills are wet noodles and I've never killed anyone with an at will! Average pvper in the 30k HP range 25% is 7,500 HP! You tell me what wet noodle you will be hitting them with to ensure their timely death? Then add in Tenacity, Absorbs, DR, deflection, Regeneration, Temporary Hp, their CC...
I don't hold my encounters at all, I run lunging /Anvil / FLS I know when I get someone low enough my anvil 80% of the time will execute them!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This can't be repeated often enough. Frequently it is the GF's lot to repeatedly die by trolling the enemy team (or most of the enemy team) en masse at a point, while your team mates go and cap the other points in relative safety.
This does depend on your colleagues being smart enough to actually cap under-defended or undefended points, as you can only be in one place at a time.
I lose track of how many times I have asked PUGgers to actually cap while I repeatedly tie up 3+ enemies, usually at mid. Instead they prefer to farm kills next to red points, apparently not understanding how the game works. Even polite entreaties to go and stand on the points are generally met by "yeah, says the newb with the lowest score", or something even more unprintable. After a while, they will notice that they're 300+ points behind and then start afking.
Obviously, a variant of this is when the rentapony wonders all turtle up at their own point, and don't understand why having at least two is important- with similar reactions when you ask them to stop doing that and help.
There isn't a leaver penalty severe enough to stop you just bailing after a few minutes of that, as wasting your time on kill farmers and the like makes The Baby Jesus angry.
I usually hold mid, whilst my team run between 1 -3 I serve as a defense camp for them. I try and shield my casters so I can block incoming attacks, sometimes I get zerged and call out big incoming to 2 need backup and I die. But I respawn run back and retain my position.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
That's just not true, the GF at wills are wet noodles and I've never killed anyone with an at will! Average pvper in the 30k HP range 25% is 7,500 HP! You tell me what wet noodle you will be hitting them with to ensure their timely death? Then add in Tenacity, Absorbs, DR, deflection, Regeneration, Temporary Hp, their CC...
I don't hold my encounters at all, I run lunging /Anvil / FLS I know when I get someone low enough my anvil 80% of the time will execute them!
Hrmm, I think you read what I said wrong, try it again:
If you are able to get anything to 30% health you do not need the damage from Anvil, they are improperly geared/built and slapping them with a wet noodle would be just as effective. Just sayen
It was a statement that was meant to imply that if you are able to get someone to low health on a GF while using only 2 encounters and your at wills, you vastly outskill/gear the opponent and nothing further is needed except a heartbeat at the other end of the Keyboard.
At the same time the statement was meant to also imply that on any normal opponent you are never going to get them that low on health to begin with.
I guess I didn't word it correctly?
Anyway, the long and short of it is this:
Once Again:
Last time:
As a GF in PvP your job is not to get KB's. Every other class except the DC can do this WAYYYYYYYY better than you. So play to your classes strengths, which at this point in time is Prones.
Prones:
1) Help you Survive
2) Allow you to do more DPS over the course of a fight
3) Allow you to keep enemies off the node
4) Help your teammates avoid taking damage.
5) Allow you to break enemy CC locks on yourself and your allies
6) Give your allies a very good opportunity to land their easily dodge-able enconters/dalies
7) Help you intercept/stall enemies heading to a friendly node.
Anvil of Doom:
1) Helps you get kills/killing blows.
2) ummm... think thats it actually.
So, I know what I'm putting on my bar. You put whatever you want on yours.
P.S. CC is King in PvP, this is not a new concept, this goes back to the land before time, and is accepted by anyone who has ever PvP'd in any game ever...
BTW
''My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.'' - I said this because I assumed I was speaking with reasonable people who wanted to hear the ideas and opinions of someone with a lot of experience in PvP. This thread was going very well until.... you I got frustrated explaining the same thing over and over to the 2 or 3 people who don't see the way things are, so my tone took a turn for the worse.
It is probably not going to change in future responses to you guys, so I'll do my best not to address your questions, comments anymore. I have said my piece.
You can disagree if you want, but you would be wrong
My job as GF is to protect my team and defend the node in any manner possible... So you can run around with your so called perfect set up and I'll do mine. You speculate on ME getting others low sometimes its 2 of us on a GWF or trying to keep my CW alive. Killing them removes the threat of capping the node and killing my teammates! I choose to kill my target if possible over proning them until help comes.
I respect you opinion but I choose a different play style.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Recently, I use the feated Anvil of Doom which adds a small stun to it; seems to work but otherwise I would switch back to Griffon's Wrath (although the stun time is comparable and Anvil adds more damage but is not able to hit twice or thrice). In other situations I can recommend Iron Warrior or Into the Fray; Lunging Strike is generally useful, although most of the time in terms of damage and movability.
Recently, I use the feated Anvil of Doom which adds a small stun to it; seems to work but otherwise I would switch back to Griffon's Wrath (although the stun time is comparable and Anvil adds more damage but is not able to hit twice or thrice). In other situations I can recommend Iron Warrior or Into the Fray; Lunging Strike is generally useful, although most of the time in terms of damage and movability.
Yea problem is I am usually left alone on a node, does buffing your party have a limited area? Like everyone else depending on team make up I switch encounters and passives around.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
My job as GF is to protect my team and defend the node in any manner possible... So you can run around with your so called perfect set up and I'll do mine. You speculate on ME getting others low sometimes its 2 of us on a GWF or trying to keep my CW alive. Killing them removes the threat of capping the node and killing my teammates! I choose to kill my target if possible over proning them until help comes.
I respect you opinion but I choose a different play style.
That's fine man, what confuses me is that you asked for build advice in another thread. Facecontrol and I gave you a build, you liked it, you seemed to like it a lot. In this thread I'm telling you how Face and I and the other PvP GFs use said build and you argue?!?
Just don't understand is all.
Everything you said (what I quoted above) supports the play style I'm suggesting. Your first point, that your job is to protect your team. I don't see how you believe dropping a prone in favor of... Well anything else, helps you in that endeavor. Same with killing a GWF 2v1, that CW has PLENTY of DPS to kill the GWF, but he won't be able to if you can't protect him, and neither GW nor AoD are going to help protect that poor CW, he is screwed because you can't help with prones.
But hey! That's just my opinion, not like I've seen it happen, or have any experience playing GF, I'm just theory crafting here.
Recently, I use the feated Anvil of Doom which adds a small stun to it; seems to work but otherwise I would switch back to Griffon's Wrath (although the stun time is comparable and Anvil adds more damage but is not able to hit twice or thrice). In other situations I can recommend Iron Warrior or Into the Fray
The range of Into The Fray is pretty short. Moreover, the casting animation is very long, and if your opponent isn't clinically braindead, he'll make you regret it. If you want it for a gap closer, just lunge. Similar considerations apply to Gryphon's Wrath, it often only hits very bad or preoccupied players, who are sufficiently inattentive that you may as well hit them with something more productive instead.
That's fine man, what confuses me is that you asked for build advice in another thread. Facecontrol and I gave you a build, you liked it, you seemed to like it a lot. In this thread I'm telling you how Face and I and the other PvP GFs use said build and you argue?!?
Just don't understand is all.
Everything you said (what I quoted above) supports the play style I'm suggesting. Your first point, that your job is to protect your team. I don't see how you believe dropping a prone in favor of... Well anything else, helps you in that endeavor. Same with killing a GWF 2v1, that CW has PLENTY of DPS to kill the GWF, but he won't be able to if you can't protect him, and neither GW nor AoD are going to help protect that poor CW, he is screwed because you can't help with prones.
But hey! That's just my opinion, not like I've seen it happen, or have any experience playing GF, I'm just theory crafting here.
You guys gave me spec advise based on feats, I use them. I am not arguing anything. I choose a different encounter thats all! I don't do cookie cutters...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You guys gave me spec advise based on feats, I use them. I am not arguing anything. I choose a different encounter thats all! I don't do cookie cutters...
You're right man, I'm being too rough on ya, I'll back off I am enjoying these back and forths though :P
Whats your technique against a GWF facerolling everyone? I can hold them longer then most but ultimately die!
The best gambit is usually to troll the hell out of them, and ask your colleagues to cap the other points while you do so. If you all dogpile the GWF, the enemy team can just steal the other points without opposition.
If the other team has multiple IWIN specced GWFs with good gear, just... well,
<< video link removed per the RoC >>
..is your best bet, hope for a nicer match next time.
The range of Into The Fray is pretty short. Moreover, the casting animation is very long, and if your opponent isn't clinically braindead, he'll make you regret it. If you want it for a gap closer, just lunge. Similar considerations apply to Gryphon's Wrath, it often only hits very bad or preoccupied players, who are sufficiently inattentive that you may as well hit them with something more productive instead.
Things I said on other threads too about Into the Fray, a shorter animation could make it somewhat useful. I would like it for the bonus on Guard refreshing and Run Speed and Action Point gain but right now it is almost completely useless; maybe in a pre-made it could have its use as a group buff but it has still its incredibly long animation is countered easily. (Although I want to say a word in defence of Into the Fray: Me and others were able to chase every other class with no problems and escape were problematic for the enemies, still -- the animation.)
So far, a feated Anvil of Doom is useful as well and is another viable option besides Lunging Strike.
Comments
(And in PvE, the GF feels slow but useful all the way until a few days or weeks in level 60, when you're starting to be geared up and will feel your limitations)
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
Recovery lowers your Encounter Cooldowns so they are up more, also it helps your AP gain so your daily (a Prone not SoS you silly GF's) comes up more (very quick with GF even w/o stacking Recovery)
Our encounters help us close gaps, do damage, and survive (prones) so they are very very important. To me my encounters help me survive more than anything else so I take points out of defensive stats and put them in recovery.
I also am a realistic GF and know that 1v1 I'm probably not going to kill anybody who has similar gear/skill. So me surviving till a DPS rotates, and then having the tools to help the DPS get their burst off by proning the enemy is very important. In fact its really the only job a GF has in PvP that he excels at.
However bottom line is, in its current state, GF can be replaced in PvP by almost any class and be just as, or more, useful. This is why you really have to pay attention, rotate QUICKLY and be where you're needed all the times.
You need to realize your roll and not run around trying to beef up your score, because if your K/D and score is high, you're probably not doing your job too well. I never stay to cap a point or get the Killing Blow if someone else is on it, I move forward with my prones and protect it so the DPS on the point can get the cap/kill. Then he moves forward and we kill again. Good way to grab some points.
This post is MONEY! Well said, amigo
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
In 1v1 will any of these skills give you the edge? I can't see how, regardless of play style.
Frontline Surge helps your teammates by proning the enemy, and applying the bronze debuff, which in turn helps your team kill, keeps your team safe, keeps you safe, and provides the condition that is required for your feats/feature to give you more DPS.
Yes you can use other encounters if you like or if you feel they fit your play style better, are they optimal? No, FLS beats them out in nearly every way. The only thing it is missing is DPS but, the only encounter that does more is only usable when the enemy is low on health, and let's face it... If you have someone low on health as a GF, you don't need anvil to finish them, a water balloon will probably do =P
I can see how GW might be attractive, but even though it's a short stun and spammable, it does not prone so you're losing the DPS boost from trample and all those other great feats you picked up because all the alternatives are just meh.
My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.
I like anvil of doom maybe because I am sentimental. Reckless = 2x power, anvil = 2x damage to anything half or below hp, trample = extra damage to things already cc'd....I am just a fan of it.
Everything else you said I totally agree with. GW is good for leveling through pvp until you get fls. My rotation at 60 (now) would probably be bull rush/lunging strike-fls-anvil. Maybe replacing anvil at times with either lunging or bulls.
Jugger Conq GF
....
I swap Ferocious Reaction / Trample the Fallen depending on other team make up. Always running Combat Superiority!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
How are you losing the DPS from Trample with GW? The stun is a bit short, but if you have someone cornered you can land 2 of them and they'd both be boosted. Heck if you bull rush someone into a wall or a friendly cw is using entangled you can land all 3, fully boosted.
So you are getting MAYBE, the first hit of GW buffed by TtF IF you proned them first, but you had better hope you were close when you proned them because you are going to have a Hard time getting to them and getting off GW before they are up again. If it's a class with any dodges I guarantee they are spamming dodge while proned so not only will the hit not be buffed by a control effect, it's probably going to get dodged as well, and you have no ranged prone left to get ahold of them again because you dumped it to pick up GW.
As for your CW example, yes you'll get the bonus if they are being entangled or w/e, but if there is a CW there your DPS is not needed. Your prones are, so that they can't get up and destroy the CW while you are hitting them for 3k and applying your bull**** .0001 second stun.
Tenacity made killing anything in PvP as a GF very difficult. I tried BC, KC, GW, Daily combo, it can do a lot of damage!
Having said that you will rarely get this combo off in an actual match,even against pugs. And you are completely useless when not getting this combo off.
The point isent really what you're getting with GW, it's what your losing. And you're losing a prone, which is the only thing we have left that's even remotely useful.
So once again. You need to build your GF, and use the GF encounters that help you do your job in PvP. Currently that is assisting others to kill via PRONES, or protecting others... Via prones.
Does other stuff work? Yes. Does it work as well? No.
The full prone rotation is ideal for a coordinated team, I won't dispute that. But as for pugging, I'm doing just fine with Anvil.
*shrug* suit yourself.
Just one more quick comment. If you are able to get anything to 30% health you do not need the damage from Anvil, they are improperly geared/built and slapping them with a wet noodle would be just as effective. Just sayen
If running around with your group and holding your encounters till the enemy is at 30% then stealing the kill is your bag, than I think anvil probably is the way to go.
Speaking of which! I was in a match the other day, I had 3 kills and around 30 assists. I was playing my GWF.
So yes if you want to be like one of the TRs who use lashing, or the DPS Clerics, or the CW that holds their daily until enemy is at 2% health, then yes, slot Anvil.
This may seem harsh but it's usually the reason pugs think they are doing "just fine". Kills don't mean a thing, don't waste your time or abilities trying to steal them.
Why is unfathomable that a GF can dish out pain on its own? 4k power, 1000 crit, 1400 arpen, GBronzewood, I'm hardly pillow-fisted. I've also seen GFs in PVP that stack superior offensive stats. I've been wiped out by them too. I myself hit harder before I switched from Grim Conqueror to Profound Preserver, at which point my Anvil hit even harder than it does now.
I can and do 1v1 every class. Granted certain classes at a certain gear level are beyond me, but I most certainly do not lurk around waiting to burst into a half dead opponent and steal me a kill as you'd like to think I do. Another thing I do is purposely run around my DC/squishies if they are being targeted in an attempt to divert the enemy's focus towards me. I am a GF, I sit where it is hot, not lurk around in the shadows waiting to butter my kill-score.
And as I am always on or near a node, then yes, a high number of kills & assists mean I am either helping to take or keep nodes.
I fight smart players far more often than lowbies. The Halfling (makes it doubly harder to prone anyway) brigades that never stand still. Rather get my BC lock, Lunging burst, IS prone and Anvil closer. It all works for me and I will continue to use that. I've tried full prone rotation and I personally do not like it. My damage output is reduced and my chances of blowing an encounter were higher.
Glad to hear it man, sounds like you have a good handle on things. Just carry on like this doesn't apply to you.
For everyone else, I greatly discourage the use of Anvil in PvP for the reasons I stated above.
This can't be repeated often enough. Frequently it is the GF's lot to repeatedly die by trolling the enemy team (or most of the enemy team) en masse at a point, while your team mates go and cap the other points in relative safety.
This does depend on your colleagues being smart enough to actually cap under-defended or undefended points, as you can only be in one place at a time.
I lose track of how many times I have asked PUGgers to actually cap while I repeatedly tie up 3+ enemies, usually at mid. Instead they prefer to farm kills next to red points, apparently not understanding how the game works. Even polite entreaties to go and stand on the points are generally met by "yeah, says the newb with the lowest score", or something even more unprintable. After a while, they will notice that they're 300+ points behind and then start afking.
Obviously, a variant of this is when the rentapony wonders all turtle up at their own point, and don't understand why having at least two is important- with similar reactions when you ask them to stop doing that and help.
There isn't a leaver penalty severe enough to stop you just bailing after a few minutes of that, as wasting your time on kill farmers and the like makes The Baby Jesus angry.
Ahh there are so few PvPers left on these forums it's really refreshing to see someone posting that actually gets it.
I am always lowest score when I'm pugging, why? Because I'm too busy winning the match for you to worry about getting KB's or staying on an uncontested node until it's capped.
And to everyone who says "it's pug PvP I just want points, not like it's a premade". I do everything the same in every match. You know why premades win? Cause they play like premades, this works against pugs too believe it or not... :rolleyes:
Play smart, play well, always.
Fair enough, but after saying this; ''My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.'', I got a little agitated that you proceeded to rubbish another's opinion on changing it up rotation wise. Full chain prone works for you and probably the majority of GFs in PVP, but it does not work for me. I also know of others that prefer Griffon's over both Anvil and one of BC or FLS. Because of this I see no problem in experimenting with your third encounter so long as you have at least one prone and a gap closer.
That's just not true, the GF at wills are wet noodles and I've never killed anyone with an at will! Average pvper in the 30k HP range 25% is 7,500 HP! You tell me what wet noodle you will be hitting them with to ensure their timely death? Then add in Tenacity, Absorbs, DR, deflection, Regeneration, Temporary Hp, their CC...
I don't hold my encounters at all, I run lunging /Anvil / FLS I know when I get someone low enough my anvil 80% of the time will execute them!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I usually hold mid, whilst my team run between 1 -3 I serve as a defense camp for them. I try and shield my casters so I can block incoming attacks, sometimes I get zerged and call out big incoming to 2 need backup and I die. But I respawn run back and retain my position.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Hrmm, I think you read what I said wrong, try it again:
If you are able to get anything to 30% health you do not need the damage from Anvil, they are improperly geared/built and slapping them with a wet noodle would be just as effective. Just sayen
It was a statement that was meant to imply that if you are able to get someone to low health on a GF while using only 2 encounters and your at wills, you vastly outskill/gear the opponent and nothing further is needed except a heartbeat at the other end of the Keyboard.
At the same time the statement was meant to also imply that on any normal opponent you are never going to get them that low on health to begin with.
I guess I didn't word it correctly?
Anyway, the long and short of it is this:
Once Again:
Last time:
As a GF in PvP your job is not to get KB's. Every other class except the DC can do this WAYYYYYYYY better than you. So play to your classes strengths, which at this point in time is Prones.
Prones:
1) Help you Survive
2) Allow you to do more DPS over the course of a fight
3) Allow you to keep enemies off the node
4) Help your teammates avoid taking damage.
5) Allow you to break enemy CC locks on yourself and your allies
6) Give your allies a very good opportunity to land their easily dodge-able enconters/dalies
7) Help you intercept/stall enemies heading to a friendly node.
Anvil of Doom:
1) Helps you get kills/killing blows.
2) ummm... think thats it actually.
So, I know what I'm putting on my bar. You put whatever you want on yours.
P.S. CC is King in PvP, this is not a new concept, this goes back to the land before time, and is accepted by anyone who has ever PvP'd in any game ever...
BTW
''My opinion, not law, but it makes sense to me so food for thought at least.'' - I said this because I assumed I was speaking with reasonable people who wanted to hear the ideas and opinions of someone with a lot of experience in PvP. This thread was going very well until.... you
It is probably not going to change in future responses to you guys, so I'll do my best not to address your questions, comments anymore. I have said my piece.
You can disagree if you want, but you would be wrong
I respect you opinion but I choose a different play style.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Yea problem is I am usually left alone on a node, does buffing your party have a limited area? Like everyone else depending on team make up I switch encounters and passives around.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
That's fine man, what confuses me is that you asked for build advice in another thread. Facecontrol and I gave you a build, you liked it, you seemed to like it a lot. In this thread I'm telling you how Face and I and the other PvP GFs use said build and you argue?!?
Just don't understand is all.
Everything you said (what I quoted above) supports the play style I'm suggesting. Your first point, that your job is to protect your team. I don't see how you believe dropping a prone in favor of... Well anything else, helps you in that endeavor. Same with killing a GWF 2v1, that CW has PLENTY of DPS to kill the GWF, but he won't be able to if you can't protect him, and neither GW nor AoD are going to help protect that poor CW, he is screwed because you can't help with prones.
But hey! That's just my opinion, not like I've seen it happen, or have any experience playing GF, I'm just theory crafting here.
The range of Into The Fray is pretty short. Moreover, the casting animation is very long, and if your opponent isn't clinically braindead, he'll make you regret it. If you want it for a gap closer, just lunge. Similar considerations apply to Gryphon's Wrath, it often only hits very bad or preoccupied players, who are sufficiently inattentive that you may as well hit them with something more productive instead.
You guys gave me spec advise based on feats, I use them. I am not arguing anything. I choose a different encounter thats all! I don't do cookie cutters...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You're right man, I'm being too rough on ya, I'll back off
Whats your technique against a GWF facerolling everyone? I can hold them longer then most but ultimately die!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The best gambit is usually to troll the hell out of them, and ask your colleagues to cap the other points while you do so. If you all dogpile the GWF, the enemy team can just steal the other points without opposition.
If the other team has multiple IWIN specced GWFs with good gear, just... well,
<< video link removed per the RoC >>
..is your best bet, hope for a nicer match next time.
Things I said on other threads too about Into the Fray, a shorter animation could make it somewhat useful. I would like it for the bonus on Guard refreshing and Run Speed and Action Point gain but right now it is almost completely useless; maybe in a pre-made it could have its use as a group buff but it has still its incredibly long animation is countered easily. (Although I want to say a word in defence of Into the Fray: Me and others were able to chase every other class with no problems and escape were problematic for the enemies, still -- the animation.)
So far, a feated Anvil of Doom is useful as well and is another viable option besides Lunging Strike.