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Shattering Lore For Laughs

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  • torskaldrtorskaldr Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    there is a line and i believe that's too much of an extreme.

    i am 100% positive that changes that would cross the official D&D immersion line would not happen... meaning if WotC doesn't approve, it won't happen in neverwinter.
    I agree that it cross a line. My main point being that there is a line. I do think Wizards has the final say, but some of us have been playing D&D as long or longer and used to take canon from others. Someone working at Wizards gives them the authority, but doesn't mean they always make the best decisions. Again, my point is hopefully the powers that be are thoughtful about these things and that the dollar isn't their primary or sole motivation.
  • doctordnadoctordna Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ...
    If these were temp items, lasting only for, say, the first week of April, I'd say sure, go for it. But these are permanent items. Items that people played a "skirmish" over and over to get, or spent zen on. This was either a horrendous mistake, or proof that the devs really don't care one whit about D&D canon lore. I'm betting on both.

    -- @Gruffydd

    I came here directly from the game Rift, I am no longer active in Rift mainly due to poor support issues. However back in November they added Mechs to the game as a mount. These huge mounts (2.5 times the height of a player) were awesome, well at least I thought so. I had no desire to own one but many players issued complaints. Since this was a game of magic vs tech the mech made sense to me. However some players felt the mech wasn't fantasy? Some complained about the size and it could get in the way of mailboxes and auctions. I never seen enough of them to encounter the issue. In fact, the following month I saw more ugly squirrel mounts than mechs. Sadly these mounts in Rift are NOT April Fools jokes and the developers thought I would like to hop up on a big Pikachu looking rodent.

    Don't fear, bright and shiny wears off pretty quick.
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited April 2014
    doctordna wrote: »
    Don't fear, bright and shiny wears off pretty quick.

    Definitely a fact to consider. Whenever new content is added you will see a lot of that content or a lot people trying to get that content all at once. Especially for purchased novelties the appeal wears off in short order and things which feel common place at release tend to become more rare again.

    For instance Nightmares, Owlbears, Spiders, etc are fairly rarish mounts to see this day in age. At one point in time all you saw were those three and the Guardian Pack Horse but as more varied content enters the game and the pool of options expanded so too does the variety of mounts you encounter in the game except for a spike due to the flavor of the week/month.

    Although I do feel that the game could do with a bit more variety of basic horse mounts. I know there are many people who do just want an account wide basic horse of a good speed or different colors. I suppose that is a topic for another thread, though.
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Protector's Enclave, Closed Beta 3, February 2013:

    screenshot_2013-04-25-19-36-06.jpg

    It was hilarious that every single companion was a Panther and every single mount was a Giant Spider and you couldn't help but trip over them. The same is true for any popular new mount or companion release. Remember how many white Unicorns were all over the place after Feywild went live?

    Now I hardly see white Unicorns and Heavy Armored Spiders.

    The invasion of GCs in PE will fizzle out over time. Just be patient.
  • beelzebubbanwbeelzebubbanw Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I justy wish we still had gnomes. You can play every type of elf that they can think of. Even dwarves used to be of different subtypes. Halflings were subtypes at one time.

    Why did Wizards of the coast kill the gnome? the deep gnome?
  • mrgiggles651mrgiggles651 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The cubes and green slime pet are hilarious.
    I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The cubes and green slime pet are hilarious.

    Cubes video: ---> http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?647071-MARCH-of-the-CUBES-(video)&p=7706671
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It's a fictional world with levels of magic and supernatural influences such that just about anything goes. Instead of griping about the lack of lore, just take a step back and think about what lore might make sense. It should be easy in a world such as Forgotten Realms.

    I'm always pining for a redcap companion, but I know the second one became available, someone would say, "but they *hate* elves!" Perhaps so, but certain ones might hate *dying* even more. Case in point: the story behind the Master of the Hunt skirmish is that the Master of the Hunt normally uses his wolves to hunt dark fey creatures. This has the effect of causing hordes of dark fey, desperate to escape alive, streaming into elven lands -- presumably because they consider it safer than staying in place.

    Then there's the second influence: Malabog has redcaps working under the thumbs of trolls and cyclopses, and it should be clear to any redcap with half a brain where they stand on the totem pole. Displease any of those masters and they're suddenly facing Kelemvor or whoever takes custody of deceased redcaps.

    A magic-using witherer (presumably smarter than the average redcap), might very well decide that someone as squishy as he would live a whole lot longer if he had an adventurer looking after him; at least then he could count on having at least *one* ally, whereas in redcap society it might very well be every redcap for himself when it came to surviving the wrath of both Malabog and the Hunt Master.

    See? Not so hard, is it? Now when do I get to approach a witherer and tell him, "Come with me if you want to live"?
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
    My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
  • obsiddiaobsiddia Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,025 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    As pointed out everything thus far can be explained.

    IMO the only thing that breaks immersion is that all of these people around me are riding and wearing things which should be incredibly unique. But that is to be expected with an MMO as everybody wants their characters to be unique. It is no different here than in any other D&D game really except that when I played Neverwinter Nights there were only a handful of players in any given area or if I play Baldur's Gate there were only NPC's.

    These mounts, IMO, more resemble magical trinkets than actual mounts. In my opinion they all seem like Jarlaxle's nightmare figurines and Drizzt's unicorn mount. The summoned mounts are actually illusions of a sort and not physical creatures.

    For instance in the novels it is explained that Guenwhyvar is the astral essence of the panther. She is a physical being from another plane. The figurine has a magical link to her essence. However the mounts they ride are magical constructs and are not living breathing entities.

    If Guenwhyvar's figurine is broken she would live happily in the astral plane. If the mount's figurines were broken the constructs themselves would be destroyed.

    If you apply that concept to Neverwinter...
    We are not riding on actual nightmares, just a magical construction of the likeness of a Nightmare.
    Similarly it could be rationalised we are not riding in an actual Gelatinous Cube but are simply in a substance which is visually similar.
    Excellent lore ideas. I would also point out that the Spellplague altered all of magic
    and a very large number of monsters. The new magic and spellcasters had to go some in new directions.
    Did you really think anyone could steal the power of the god of thieves?
  • doctordnadoctordna Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I am guilty of buying silly items I don't need. I think I spent about $8 on this mechanical spider mount on Rift
    14462d1380221865t-just-want-say-screen4.jpg

    Every MMO I have been part of, has something that people find silly or just plain offensive. In Star Trek Online people would be jumping all over the stations spraying the fire extinguishers. Players ranted that it was a distraction. Nothing changed but eventually they stopped doing it. The silliness will go away on its own.

    However I do agree, that both the players and developers, can completely ruin whatever lore the game was based upon. Take STO for example; They have a war between the Federation and KDF, then toss in a variety of other races and just placed them on one side of the fence or the other. Like this, "Good guys line up on this side and bad guys over there!" Even the recently developed playable Romulans are forced on the Feds or the KDF. This made no sense to me because anyone who watched the show knows, the Romulans hated both Klingons and Humans with a passion. I was planning to return to STO last year, but when I heard how they botched it, I didn't bother.

    I also read in this forum players wanting a "hotkey" to change armor eh? LoL People this game is based on D&D, where rounds of combat run 10 seconds and turns last 10 minutes. So in the heat of battle you want to change your clothes? Really? The battle would be over by the time you get undressed. I can see a quick weapon swap but not a wardrobe change in battle. But if those developers can make money off your idea I am sure it will be added.

    I don't expect any game to change to my wishes. I know for a fact, in one year or less, I will be wondering why I spent any money on this one. I also know people will come and go and so do the owners and developers. If you want a game to bend to your will, design your own.
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Heck. Who could forget STOs cryo grenades. Like the water baloons here only twice as annoying. That caused a heck of a lot more outcry did there then the water baloons did here. But Trekkies always seemed a more serious lot. :D
  • doctordnadoctordna Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Sorry to off topic but;

    Yes, Trekkers (as my generation is called) is very a serious lot. The mid 60s to the mid 80s fans of TOS is known as "Trekkies". They never questioned the science behind the show, computers were the root of all evil, and there was nothing wrong with cross species intercourse, if you are the Captain. When STNG came out in the mid 80s all that changed. My generation questions how the teleporters work, how much energy output is in a hand held phaser, and why genetic malfunction with a teleporter turning crew members into children is seen as a horrible accident and must be "corrected" and not repeated. Computers can be your best friends (Commander Data). Cross species affairs (Commander Riker) can not only be dangerous to you but the whole crew.

    But don't get me wrong, I also love comedy especially in Star Trek. There was/is a Foundry writer who wrote some very funny episodes about people getting scammed into paying to join Starfleet. They were the "wash outs" of the Academy and told that for a tuition fee they could join another "Elite" Academy. It was your job to find the academy and it was a pretty good mystery mission.

    @Gruffydd I also understand your point, that this mount in D&D has always been a mindless monster that KILLS you and seeing them in game is not only laughable, but removes you from your immersion in the game. Unfortunately most players don't seem to have the ability to engage themselves on our level. They lack this ability and while that is just sad, they are the ones who buy those mounts too. ;)
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    I'd say that riding around unharmed in a mindless eating machine is a totally within-lore demonstration of just how HAMSTER your toon is.

    Also, fwiw: star trek is not, and never has been (in any iteration) anything even approaching 'hard' sci-fi, so applying tricky real-world questions to it is (while certainly amusing) more or less like dynamite fishing in a barrel.
  • wingedkagoutiwingedkagouti Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    doctordna wrote: »
    @Gruffydd I also understand your point, that this mount in D&D has always been a mindless monster that KILLS you and seeing them in game is not only laughable, but removes you from your immersion in the game. Unfortunately most players don't seem to have the ability to engage themselves on our level. They lack this ability and while that is just sad, they are the ones who buy those mounts too. ;)
    I'd say you're not immersed as much as you claim to be if you refuse to believe that a genius/insane/enterprising wizard would not find a way to control a cube and make it "safe" to ride. I would expect to see a magic user do a thing like that for profit and a long line of nobles/wealthy merchants/thrill seekers queueing up just so they could say they had tried it. And before you try to counter with "There are no published spells to do that" remember that magical research has been a part of D&D lore for several decades now.

    Humans have a tendency of going "I wonder if I can do that?" when a crazy idea pops into mind. Some people disregard many of the crazier ideas, others do their best to make them reality. Expecting this to not happen because there's magic in the world seems silly to me, to me magic would make even crazier ideas seem more likely and magic users would not be extempt from trying to follow their insane ideas, just like the classical mad scientist. And in NW at least one crazy mage succeeded in making a ridable gelatinous cube, whether it's that mage or someone else profiting, someone was enterprising enough to replicate and sell the replicas to adventurers.
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Okay, nice detour about Trekkies, Trekors, and the seriousness of immersion. However, I am hopeful this comment is a nice segue to switching BACK ON TOPIC, PLEASE. :)
  • silverquicksilverquick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    morsitans wrote: »
    I'd say that riding around unharmed in a mindless eating machine is a totally within-lore demonstration of just how HAMSTER your toon is.

    Well I don't know about that.

    But the Cube does fit the lore for some classes. As an example, I bought one for a Wizard because it looks just like a Polymorph Self spell. For a Wizard to transform into some other creature and travel in its form is normal and not exactly an immersion breaker.

    Though admittedly cubes dont move NEARLY that fast.

    But Its actually the perfect mount for Wizards and other Shapeshifting classes as it looks just like the spell.
  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I'd say you're not immersed as much as you claim to be if you refuse to believe that a genius/insane/enterprising wizard would not find a way to control a cube and make it "safe" to ride. I would expect to see a magic user do a thing like that for profit and a long line of nobles/wealthy merchants/thrill seekers queueing up just so they could say they had tried it. And before you try to counter with "There are no published spells to do that" remember that magical research has been a part of D&D lore for several decades now.

    I find it weird some people can easily accept the concept of dead or spirits, raised from the grave and serving someone. Or the various constructs serving some purpose (golems and such, always been part of D&D lore), but they panic when they think of something slightly different, a small variation.

    You can think of the cube mount as of a "magic" entity no different from an iron golem, except it's made of a different material: wood golem, steel golem, even blood or mud golem have existed in the manuals at some point, and many more. It perfectly fits in the overly-magical lore of FR.
  • dragoness10dragoness10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 780 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    : hoists a Monstrous Manual first edition, and opens it to the last pages:

    "Monster Creation Sheet!"

    Ye Gary Gygax provided it for inspiring new monsters, and ideas in lore. Later expansions on D&D including other planes expanded on this idea.

    Know what kills immersion?

    1) OOC chatter
    2) leetspeak
    3) whines
    4) trolls
    5) blatantly obvious out of place things
    6) crashes
    7) lag
    8) over-sexy Mary Sues
    ETC.

    Take an example from steampunk too in adapting "modern ideas and technology" to a setting. That jet pack is powered by STEAM, not rocket fuel.

    Electric guitar -

    Take one acoustic guitar, add in a Rod of Thunder and Lightening down the neck, modify front with Resonant Crystals, attach on a small horn end, and enchant with Sonic Elemental powers. For the sake of the Bard make sure the guitar strap holding it onto them is enchanted with 100% Sonic Immunity so they don't get blown over by their own guitar. Strings you might want to make from fine Mithril as steel may not hold up. Point at enemy, and play power chords. BLLAAANNGGG!!!!

    Just an example. Use your imagination.

    On the negative side of the slimes and gelatinous cubes I could ask for a little less blooping noise. I do agree too many of them sounds like you are "surrounded by backed up toilets".
    " I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep

    "Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."

    "Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
  • imaginaerum1imaginaerum1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 378 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Magic can do anything... spell research... monster creation... all of this is specific to a GM's campaign. If you're running a game, and you want to put in new stuff, absolutely! If you're a player in a game, and want to put in the time and effort to design a new spell, create a magic item, or whatever, the rules are there for it.

    However, this is a shared world, based on an establised property that has established content. When you start adding in things that are not part of that content, you'd better have a VERY good story explanation as to how it got there and why, rather than just saying "it's magic!" This isn't some random GMs version of the Forgotten Realms, this is official WotC Forgotten Realms. As such, it should stick to what is *already in* the Forgotten Realms, instead of what *could be* in the Forgotten Realms. I'm not talking about plotlines here, I'm talking about the basic building blocks. Spells, monsters, classes, races, magic items. Sure, if you're playing Pathfinder, you can play an android, if you're playing Dragonlance, you can play a kender, etc. But such things wouldn't be appropriate here. It's just not part of the setting. A stirge would make a great addition to our monster manual here. A stirge that explodes in an 8d6 fireball after a crit would not, even though it could be explained that a mad wizard created it. It's just not part of the setting.

    That said, gelatinous cube mounts are apparently in the setting (since D&D 3.5, arms and equipment guide, "Amulet of Cube Riding"). Fine. I still think it's silly to have a city swarming with them without the folks running the city getting in a panic about it, and various townsfolk appealing for intervention because some adventurer's cube ate their cousin while the adventurer was in the tavern grabbing an ale. Maybe the folks in charge are just too busy still cleaning up after all of the other monstrosities that adventurers regularly drag through the city streets.
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Just think of the Jelly cubs as just another fine product from GnomeCo.

    Makers of the pocket pet, the apparatus of Kwalish, one size fits all class specific adventure wear, Pocket fireworks, Trainable mimics, the magic self propelled winter sled, and the always popular endless water flask.

    GnomeCo, if we knew how this stuff actually worked. We would probably stop making it.
  • torskaldrtorskaldr Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    sockmunkey wrote: »
    Just think of the Jelly cubs as just another fine product from GnomeCo.

    Makers of the pocket pet, the apparatus of Kwalish, one size fits all class specific adventure wear, Pocket fireworks, Trainable mimics, the magic self propelled winter sled, and the always popular endless water flask.

    GnomeCo, if we knew how this stuff actually worked. We would probably stop making it.
    lol, that sounds like a blurb out of Harry Potter. Rather clever really.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,467 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Next poll question: which is better, GnomeCo or FrobozzCo?

    ;^)
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
    My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
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