I PUG a lot both PvE and PvP due to being in an Asian time zone and um... not speaking any other languages other than English and some really bad Spanish.
My observations are that if GWF are so clearly superior - I'm just not seeing it. If class mix on PUG's a relatively good sampling of what the player base is going for, and we assume that players are always trending towards whatever is most successful, then I'd say the break down is like this:
HR
TR
CW
GWF
GF
DC
My own personal experience with the class is that in certain matchups in PvP they are really awesome, but also super susceptible to an alpha strike due to the nature of determination/unstoppable being a reactive ability. In PvE - well, it really depends on the dungeon. In some dungeons they are just absolute pants and in others they are ungodly.
I'm not naïve enough to think that my opinion is going to settle any sort of debate on the matter, but for my 2 cents I actually think the classes are relatively okay, or at least "close enough". I think that the HR dodge in PvP is a bit silly at the moment (I had a good chuckle today watching a HR defend a flag against 3 players. I'll let you guess what he was doing...) but even then I don't care that much because good HR's that have decent timing are rare, and yeah there is a fair amount of skill involved there even if it is kind of ridiculous what's possible if you know what you're doing.
Same thing kinda goes for the GWF. If you have a clue, and you're in the right environment with the right gear - well, you can do some pretty silly stuff, but it's not like when you first start the game they give you an "I win" button or it's so dramatically out of line where it's ruining the game.
If anything, I wish they'd add another healing class to the game, something more martial so that we'd see more people playing them, then PUG's wouldn't be so painful...
If you played a GWF, you'd know that players often dodge after you use takedown. It's weird.
Now I'm not saying GWF's aren't OP in PVP.
Yeah they dodge. After I used my Takedown, FLS, and IBS to top it all off And who cares if they dodge, since they are almost dying anyway if they are not extremely tanky.
4th edition. Hide in plain sight as a 16th level rouge encounter power. Also some cheesy ways as well.
Read the ability. You do not go un-invisible from taking any actions, but you CAN NOT leave your current square, lest it ends. Or until the encounter's over. We were talking about the ability to move rapidly, and stay attacking from stealth. D&D still holds true to this. You can still attack, but youre limited in the fact that YOU CAN NOT MOVE.
Next...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Read the ability. You do not go un-invisible from taking any actions, but you CAN NOT leave your current square, lest it ends. Or until the encounter's over. We were talking about the ability to move rapidly, and stay attacking from stealth. D&D still holds true to this. You can still attack, but youre limited in the fact that YOU CAN NOT MOVE.
Next...
1.) There was no specifications as to what type of stealth
2.) 4th edition gloaming cut, 1st level at will. Strike, shift , stealth. Closer to neverwinter but still permanent given the right circumstances. Much like neverwinter.
3.) You could go for shadow walk warlock hybrid or cursed shadow feat.
1.) There was no specifications as to what type of stealth
2.) 4th edition gloaming cut, 1st level at will. Strike, shift , stealth. Closer to neverwinter but still permanent given the right circumstances. Much like neverwinter.
3.) You could go for shadow walk warlock hybrid or cursed shadow feat.
Next...
Youre trying to explain that because it happens in D&D, it should work the same as Neverwinter. Anyone(ahem, everyone) knows that while they get their lore and storyline from D&D, this DOES NOT play like D&D. You want that, go play DDO. Neverwinter is taking some pointers from 4th edition, but D&D is a BOARD rpg. A game restricted by enemy/player turns, 4x4 square of movement, line of sight, limits to movement per turn can not perfectly mimic an action mmorpg with (almost) none of those restrictions.
Next...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
1.) There was no specifications as to what type of stealth
By the way, YOU very clearly said Hide in Plain Sight.
Next...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Youre trying to explain that because it happens in D&D, it should work the same as Neverwinter. Anyone(ahem, everyone) knows that while they get their lore and storyline from D&D, this DOES NOT play like D&D. You want that, go play DDO. Neverwinter is taking some pointers from 4th edition, but D&D is a BOARD rpg. A game restricted by enemy/player turns, 4x4 square of movement, line of sight, limits to movement per turn can not perfectly mimic an action mmorpg with (almost) none of those restrictions.
Next...
I never compared the two besides showing that gloaming cut is the closest thing to mobile
neverwinter like stealth, while you feebly tried to make connections. I would have to be an idiot to complain about a inconsistency between the two games...
But in which edition of D&D can rogues stay invisible permanently?
Also since you can't read for half a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you might want to try again, yes I did say hide in plain sight but YOU did not put any limitations on the stealth you were questioning.
I never compared the two besides showing that gloaming cut is the closest thing to mobile
neverwinter like stealth, while you feebly tried to make connections. I would have to be an idiot to complain about a inconsistency between the two games...
Also since you can't read for half a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you might want to try again, yes I did say hide in plain sight but YOU did not put any limitations on the stealth you were questioning.
And also since YOU cant read for "half a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" I was just saying that tabletop D&D discussion can't compare with an online mmorpg, while you got all butthurt because you want to directly compare the 2.
And you are obviously being an "idiot", because the topic is about permastealth's OPness and GWF OPness, not about tabletop D&D, and anyone with half a brain would've known from the start that my comment was a SARCASTIC retort to the poster, who was referencing D&D himself... why didn't you jump on HIS/HER case?
Exactly...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
And also since YOU cant read for "half a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" I was just saying that tabletop D&D discussion can't compare with an online mmorpg, while you got all butthurt because you want to directly compare the 2.
And you are obviously being an "idiot", because the topic is about permastealth's OPness and GWF OPness, not about tabletop D&D, and anyone with half a brain would've known from the start that my comment was a SARCASTIC retort to the poster, who was referencing D&D himself... why didn't you jump on HIS/HER case?
And you sir, need to not only look up sarcasm, but look at the thread's contents before throwing insults at people in a discussion.
Id rather be a "genius"(that's sarcasm by the way), than a guy getting mad and insulting, just cuz you butted in on something you clearly didn't read beforehand.
Have a nice day
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
You wanna know why people DON'T dodge/teleport/block it? Because they CAN'T.
Takedown is one of the fastest activating CCs in the game, as well as the system registers a "hit" regardless of the actual animation. Anyone that has fought a GWF can attest to the fact that they've all experienced "getting proned mid-dodge/teleport". This is because the system registers the CC power as activated and hit even before the GWF strikes down with the hilt of his blade. The actual hit-miss registration happens before the skill animation -- another such CC power is Entangling Force the CWs use.
TD is one of the most difficult powers to dodge because it requires an high-risk anticipated dodge/teleport prior to the actual event. In practical terms, you have to start dodging/teleporting the moment you see the GWF is closing towards you around 20feet in front of you, and even in this case, sometimes that's too late, sometimes the GWF feints it, causing you to blow the dodge.
TD isn't a notably difficult ability to dodge and your theory on the hit-miss registration is incorrect. What you are experiencing is called latency. On a GWF there will be countless times when it looks like a takedown has already hit yet the player is still able to dodge out of it, again this is latency on the GWF side and the opposite is true for a player receiving any kind of ability.
It really just goes to show your bias against people playing GWFs because whether this ability hits or not is no different from any other ability and the dodge mechanic. If you can reactionary dodge a constricting arrow you can dodge a TD, otherwise your latency it to high to do this.
GF vs GWF fights can be interesting in that the two classes both dish out same prone-spamming easymode to each other. But in the long run, its the GWF hands down.
This match up depends on who controls the node, typically the person that has control of the node will either win or keep control of the node and remain alive. However in a situation where a node isn't being fought over, in a 1v1 the GF has the advantage in this fight.
Comments
My observations are that if GWF are so clearly superior - I'm just not seeing it. If class mix on PUG's a relatively good sampling of what the player base is going for, and we assume that players are always trending towards whatever is most successful, then I'd say the break down is like this:
HR
TR
CW
GWF
GF
DC
My own personal experience with the class is that in certain matchups in PvP they are really awesome, but also super susceptible to an alpha strike due to the nature of determination/unstoppable being a reactive ability. In PvE - well, it really depends on the dungeon. In some dungeons they are just absolute pants and in others they are ungodly.
I'm not naïve enough to think that my opinion is going to settle any sort of debate on the matter, but for my 2 cents I actually think the classes are relatively okay, or at least "close enough". I think that the HR dodge in PvP is a bit silly at the moment (I had a good chuckle today watching a HR defend a flag against 3 players. I'll let you guess what he was doing...) but even then I don't care that much because good HR's that have decent timing are rare, and yeah there is a fair amount of skill involved there even if it is kind of ridiculous what's possible if you know what you're doing.
Same thing kinda goes for the GWF. If you have a clue, and you're in the right environment with the right gear - well, you can do some pretty silly stuff, but it's not like when you first start the game they give you an "I win" button or it's so dramatically out of line where it's ruining the game.
If anything, I wish they'd add another healing class to the game, something more martial so that we'd see more people playing them, then PUG's wouldn't be so painful...
Yeah they dodge. After I used my Takedown, FLS, and IBS to top it all off
Read the ability. You do not go un-invisible from taking any actions, but you CAN NOT leave your current square, lest it ends. Or until the encounter's over. We were talking about the ability to move rapidly, and stay attacking from stealth. D&D still holds true to this. You can still attack, but youre limited in the fact that YOU CAN NOT MOVE.
Next...
2.) 4th edition gloaming cut, 1st level at will. Strike, shift , stealth. Closer to neverwinter but still permanent given the right circumstances. Much like neverwinter.
3.) You could go for shadow walk warlock hybrid or cursed shadow feat.
Next...
Youre trying to explain that because it happens in D&D, it should work the same as Neverwinter. Anyone(ahem, everyone) knows that while they get their lore and storyline from D&D, this DOES NOT play like D&D. You want that, go play DDO. Neverwinter is taking some pointers from 4th edition, but D&D is a BOARD rpg. A game restricted by enemy/player turns, 4x4 square of movement, line of sight, limits to movement per turn can not perfectly mimic an action mmorpg with (almost) none of those restrictions.
Next...
By the way, YOU very clearly said Hide in Plain Sight.
Next...
I never compared the two besides showing that gloaming cut is the closest thing to mobile
neverwinter like stealth, while you feebly tried to make connections. I would have to be an idiot to complain about a inconsistency between the two games...
Also since you can't read for half a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you might want to try again, yes I did say hide in plain sight but YOU did not put any limitations on the stealth you were questioning.
And also since YOU cant read for "half a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" I was just saying that tabletop D&D discussion can't compare with an online mmorpg, while you got all butthurt because you want to directly compare the 2.
And you are obviously being an "idiot", because the topic is about permastealth's OPness and GWF OPness, not about tabletop D&D, and anyone with half a brain would've known from the start that my comment was a SARCASTIC retort to the poster, who was referencing D&D himself... why didn't you jump on HIS/HER case?
Exactly...
You sir are a genius...
And you sir, need to not only look up sarcasm, but look at the thread's contents before throwing insults at people in a discussion.
Id rather be a "genius"(that's sarcasm by the way), than a guy getting mad and insulting, just cuz you butted in on something you clearly didn't read beforehand.
Have a nice day
It really just goes to show your bias against people playing GWFs because whether this ability hits or not is no different from any other ability and the dodge mechanic. If you can reactionary dodge a constricting arrow you can dodge a TD, otherwise your latency it to high to do this.
This match up depends on who controls the node, typically the person that has control of the node will either win or keep control of the node and remain alive. However in a situation where a node isn't being fought over, in a 1v1 the GF has the advantage in this fight.