So we can add DC's to the list of classes nuked in this patch along with HR and GWF and I should keep my DC sidelined to pray and only play my CW then? No, don't answer. I can answer that myself. I'm off to transfer all my best enchants to my CW.
It's our self-healing which has taken a hit, healing others should be at about the same place. So PVE we shouldn't notice too much difference (read into that what you will), PVP just got even harder.
Of course, if everyone else's damage took a 50% nerf or higher we'd be relatively better off in PVP - has that happened?
Arp + lifesteal, then removed arp when upgraded?? That is not the main point, the great amount of tenacity in the items is.
Instead of giving us some useful stat like HP or crit, they overloaded black ice gear with tenacity, which, with that hard cap, will only add ~7% more resistances.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
It's our self-healing which has taken a hit, healing others should be at about the same place. So PVE we shouldn't notice too much difference (read into that what you will), PVP just got even harder.
Of course, if everyone else's damage took a 50% nerf or higher we'd be relatively better off in PVP - has that happened?
I can tell you without a doubt that HR dps for pvp is now a non factor for anyone including clerics. The concensus from the GWF feedabck thread is much the same.
I can tell you without a doubt that HR dps for pvp is now a non factor for anyone including clerics. The concensus from the GWF feedabck thread is much the same.
So maybe the plan is to just give everyone foam weapons in PVP so we don't actually hurt each other. Interesting.
So I looked at the righteousness mechanic on preview to work out what is happening. I think it's a slight bit of good news.
I copied my character and compared Max tooltip damage/healing for the following skills using the same gear, stats etc.
As you can see, the base tooltip of all skills have been increased by about 10%. Base healing is about 60% of original values then bumped by 10% also.
You will heal yourself for about the tooltip damage. Allies will be healed at 170% of the tooltip value.
As I mentioned in my previous post, there appears to be no boost to allies for fixed HP heals like Moontouched, Repurpose Soul, Miracle Healer, but that is ok because that's how they work currently (ie same as status quo).
The new zone doesn't seem to apply healing depression even when flagged for PvP, or maybe I haven't tested properly so I can't comment on what is depressed and the state of Forgemasters.
*Addition:
With further testing Forgemasters heals self for 100%, allies for 170% (righteousness as we knew it)
*Moontouched feat is reduced from 5% HP per 3 s to now 3% only.
Feywild 4th boon (Elven tranquility) now heal us for the 170% of intended amount (~670 instead of 400 per min. Enraged Regrowth heal remains unchanged at 250 per tick for 4s every 75s or so.
Overall I approve of the righteousness reording. If anything it'll make it clearer for new players, and any boost to our output, no matter how tiny, is welcomed and long overdue. I do not think moontouched deserve a nerf.
This second table illustrates the value of righteousness in current compared to module 3 content. Assume the current outgoing heal is 100. You heal others for 100 but self for 60. I have then extrapolated this to preview server (with 10% boost) to see how powerful the healing will be in module 3. Assume base crit severity of 175%.
Basically all healing improved by ~10%. Healing on allies get a 2% extra bonus due to the larger multipliers.
Take home message:
Righteousness mechanic has been rebranded, but result is largely the same.
Compared to live, in module 3 all of the DC's abilities will be boosted by 10% (damage and healing). I have not tested enough to assess whether this was from tweaking righteousness or the reworking of power stat.
All in all, our healing for solo AND group situations will be 10% stronger. Healing on allies will continue to be stronger (70% stronger) than self heals, which is the status quo anyway.
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So the fixed they promised us from the PVP debuff that destroyed our class was a lie. There is no "official thread" on the subject (this means they have made up there mind and no changes will be forth coming). We just have to accept now that they no longer want us to survive in PVP at all. They made up there mind to destroy us in competitive PVP and that is what they did.
Taking a very simplistic view, a total of the + and - percentages ends up approximately with -70% and +50% (overall a -20% reduction).
Is it simply a case then of not using HW and BoH then to maximize the gains?
Whenever I see class changes the posts are quite naturally made by experienced people normally well into end game.
But what's the thought on leveling the class from scratch with these changes?
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
Taking a very simplistic view, a total of the + and - percentages ends up approximately with -70% and +50% (overall a -20% reduction).
Is it simply a case then of not using HW and BoH then to maximize the gains?
Whenever I see class changes the posts are quite naturally made by experienced people normally well into end game.
But what's the thought on leveling the class from scratch with these changes?
Depends on what you want to do. From a PVP perspective Cryptic destroyed the class. There is no way a Cleric can ever call there self truly viable in PVP or needed. Cryptic made sure that you will be the reason a competitive team fails because you are wasting a slot for a DPS. Before we could at least contribute by keeping ourself alive long enough to contest a node until back-up arrives. Now this is not the case. We can not stay alive for anything due to the PVP healing debuff and now more so with the righteous rework.
From a PVE perspective low end tier dungeons you will be a true asset. Not so much on high end but that has not changed and I doubt that will.
In short if you want to run low tier Dungeons go for it level it up. Anything else forget about it just not worth it anymore.
Basically Good game Cryptic destroyed a potential GREAT class. All we really had was PVP now we do not even have that. More so they do not care. We where promised a rework to make us viable again in PVP due to there rushed out patch but we where lied to. There is no official discussion thread on it. So they have made up there mind it is what it is. With no data to support the rework and no testing they accept the changes as being what has to be done to make the class completely useless. IF it where not the case and they wanted feedback on it there would be an official thread on it but there is not. #My cries have been heard there actually is an official thread now and we are in it!#
BTW to truly see what one is talking about divide all above values by 2 as you take 50 percent less healing from all sources with the PVP debuff and then realize that you have over 35k health. You quickly see that if you get focused by even one player you will die in seconds as you would not have the 12 years it would take to heal yourself up. This is a problem because you can do nothing dead even keeping your team alive. Which is not really possible anymore as your heals really do not do much to them either with the 50 percent debuff to healing.
TL;DR In PVP we are a waste of space now the slot is best served with another DPS. Our heals keep no one alive nor our self alive. We where never needed in Tier 2 Dungeons. No reason to level a Cleric unless you just want to solo.
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2014
I have to agree, I was going to comment on this last night.
Clerics are only useful in pvp , if fully supported by team to be kept alive, thus its even worse then it seems, you are NO longer the supporter and leader class, but the liability to the team function, it is much better to roll any class right now and bring it (unfortunately the alt Ive been leveling has been a CW, another class that has taken many hits in the pvp world.)
These changes, do nothing to remedy the simple fact that in PVP, the cleric offers very little besides buffing capabilities. Those do not make up for bringing any other class right now.
Im saddened because there is no way they are going to push anything new at this point, just rework the points they have and fine tune them.
In PVE, we mostly can find spots , but Ive even been kicked out of groups in GG, after they rolled a party because poeple were complaining my DC was there, they kept on saying, not needed, we can do more with without him ect.. I contend thats not the truth, between healing/buffing I should be the equivalent of another dps slot, but its really hard to convince alot of people of that, since they do not see the buffing #s.
Oh well, only a couple of days before eso headstart. I play healers, have for years and love the healing role. If a game doesn't offer an enjoyable experience I don't look to play other classes, I look to play other healers.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
Taking a very simplistic view, a total of the + and - percentages ends up approximately with -70% and +50% (overall a -20% reduction).
Is it simply a case then of not using HW and BoH then to maximize the gains?
Whenever I see class changes the posts are quite naturally made by experienced people normally well into end game.
But what's the thought on leveling the class from scratch with these changes?
That view is indeed simplistic, and also basically wrong as a consequence: note that the powers with -ve changes are straight-up heals, and the only powers in our tree that HAVE tooltip numbers for the heal they provide (FF, heals from sunburst, astral seal ticks, astral shield ticks, all of these have no tooltip for heal amount). They stated that heals were being reduced to 60% of their current value, and lo: they have been.
EVERYTHING ELSE (and, in fact, also those self-same heals, since they seem to be around 64-66%, rather than 60%) has been increasd by 10% or so. So we'll do 10% more damage to everything, heal ourselves for 10% more, and heal allies for about 12% more.
Ok, we're not a deeps class anyway, so +10% of 'mild deeps' is a mild buff, but it's still a buff, basically. Righteousness is still there (as is healing depression etc in PvP) and it still makes absolutely zero sense, and we'll still die constantly in PvP while being unable to heal ourselves or allies, but it's overall still a mild buff.
As for the doomsayers saying clerics are now dead in PvP, honestly: aside from a few very dedicated (and/or highly geared) folks, DCs have been dead in PvP for ages. The only viable DC builds were those that exploited as many non-DC-specific mechanics as possible, because self-heals are more or less a joke. Yes, self heals are now even more of a joke and all the non-specific mechanics got kerbstomped too, but that's more or less like saying "I've broken all my limbs and been impaled on a spike, but now they've ALSO shot me" -the damage was done long ago, this is just redundant extra stuff for those that didn't get the hint.
As for "PvP being the only place clerics were needed", I think you're spending too much time in PE listening to zonechat. Join legit and you'll find DCs are still very much in demand.
So the basic message, if I'm reading this right, is that these changes where an opportunity to significantly improve the cleric but the opportunity has been missed/ignored.
Is that about right?
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
It's a lot worse than I expected, I made tests
Currently on live server:
Healing Word - 490
Astral Shield - 400
Forgemaster's Flame - 1600
With new Righteousness and reworked Power:
Healing Word - 500
Astral Shield - 250
Forgemaster's Flame - 1000
We have less self healing, we will have even less self healing.
Oh boy that was my fear once I saw the power rework, low base damage/heal would be destroyed (astral shield), and with the new DC changes FF that was the best heal we had is gone.
As lyaise suggests in the Temple forum, it would be productive for moderators or a CM to open up an Official Feedback thread for this to promote visibility.
My heals have gotten a quite significant buff on preview, with the righteousness changes and the power rework. What are you people complaining about again? Not having a 15s god mode button, no downtime?
Uh...righteousness. That's what we're complaining about. It even says so in the thread title.
As far as I can see, the power changes massively favour end-game ubergeared powerstacked peeps, and I know you've got a ton of power, so of course you'll see a positive change.
What this change mostly does (power-wise) is substantially widen the gap between low gear and high gear performance (so overgeared peeps have an even easier faceroll time, undergeared peeps get even more kerbstomped), and righteousness-wise it kills the remaining non-righteousness affected heals like forgemasters, and further makes PvP a miserable experience, but does give us about a 10% boost on heals, so we're only at -34% rather than -40%. So woo! Still zero reason for righteousness to exist at all, though.
Uh...righteousness. That's what we're complaining about. It even says so in the thread title.
As far as I can see, the power changes massively favour end-game ubergeared powerstacked peeps, and I know you've got a ton of power, so of course you'll see a positive change.
What this change mostly does (power-wise) is substantially widen the gap between low gear and high gear performance (so overgeared peeps have an even easier faceroll time, undergeared peeps get even more kerbstomped), and righteousness-wise it kills the remaining non-righteousness affected heals like forgemasters, and further makes PvP a miserable experience, but does give us about a 10% boost on heals, so we're only at -34% rather than -40%. So woo! Still zero reason for righteousness to exist at all, though.
Well then yes it's clearly strongly favouring power stacking creeps (pun intended) like me. Powerful characters are going to be even more powerful. Yay, more facerolling!
So I looked at the righteousness mechanic on preview to work out what is happening. I think it's a slight bit of good news.
I copied my character and compared Max tooltip damage/healing for the following skills using the same gear, stats etc.
As you can see, the base tooltip of all skills have been increased by about 10%. Base healing is about 60% of original values then bumped by 10% also.
You will heal yourself for about the tooltip damage. Allies will be healed at 170% of the tooltip value.
As I mentioned in my previous post, there appears to be no boost to allies for fixed HP heals like Moontouched, Repurpose Soul, Miracle Healer, but that is ok because that's how they work currently (ie same as status quo).
The new zone doesn't seem to apply healing depression even when flagged for PvP, or maybe I haven't tested properly so I can't comment on what is depressed and the state of Forgemasters.
*Addition:
With further testing Forgemasters heals self for 100%, allies for 170% (righteousness as we knew it)
*Moontouched feat is reduced from 5% HP per 3 s to now 3% only.
Feywild 4th boon (Elven tranquility) now heal us for the 170% of intended amount (~670 instead of 400 per min. Enraged Regrowth heal remains unchanged at 250 per tick for 4s every 75s or so.
Overall I approve of the righteousness reording. If anything it'll make it clearer for new players, and any boost to our output, no matter how tiny, is welcomed and long overdue. I do not think moontouched deserve a nerf.
This second table illustrates the value of righteousness in current compared to module 3 content. Assume the current outgoing heal is 100. You heal others for 100 but self for 60. I have then extrapolated this to preview server (with 10% boost) to see how powerful the healing will be in module 3. Assume base crit severity of 175%.
Basically all healing improved by ~10%. Healing on allies get a 2% extra bonus due to the larger multipliers.
Take home message:
Righteousness mechanic has been rebranded, but result is largely the same.
Compared to live, in module 3 all of the DC's abilities will be boosted by 10% (damage and healing). I have not tested enough to assess whether this was from tweaking righteousness or the reworking of power stat.
All in all, our healing for solo AND group situations will be 10% stronger. Healing on allies will continue to be stronger (70% stronger) than self heals, which is the status quo anyway.
I left NW more than half year due to zerg fest dungeon boss fight & Righteousness. Decided to return playing few weeks ago, still disappointed with the dungeon. As for Righteousness... it is forgiven since the threat generation has been addressed and I do have some room to breathe during test run.
Now for the coming changes and (ref: the first table) based from the tooltip (it was base amount yes?) table, I was wondering why on earth that Healing Word & Bastion of Health bases (I use this two encounter quite alot to recharge my pip quickly) is reduced if healing is going to be improved. It gives me the feeling that part or half of the (probably) rework/tweaking on Righteousness is just by simply take away significant base amount from this two skill and shove it into other skills. I don't like this if that is the case...
Comments
It's our self-healing which has taken a hit, healing others should be at about the same place. So PVE we shouldn't notice too much difference (read into that what you will), PVP just got even harder.
Of course, if everyone else's damage took a 50% nerf or higher we'd be relatively better off in PVP - has that happened?
Instead of giving us some useful stat like HP or crit, they overloaded black ice gear with tenacity, which, with that hard cap, will only add ~7% more resistances.
I can tell you without a doubt that HR dps for pvp is now a non factor for anyone including clerics. The concensus from the GWF feedabck thread is much the same.
So maybe the plan is to just give everyone foam weapons in PVP so we don't actually hurt each other. Interesting.
I copied my character and compared Max tooltip damage/healing for the following skills using the same gear, stats etc.
As you can see, the base tooltip of all skills have been increased by about 10%. Base healing is about 60% of original values then bumped by 10% also.
You will heal yourself for about the tooltip damage. Allies will be healed at 170% of the tooltip value.
As I mentioned in my previous post, there appears to be no boost to allies for fixed HP heals like Moontouched, Repurpose Soul, Miracle Healer, but that is ok because that's how they work currently (ie same as status quo).
The new zone doesn't seem to apply healing depression even when flagged for PvP, or maybe I haven't tested properly so I can't comment on what is depressed and the state of Forgemasters.
*Addition:
With further testing Forgemasters heals self for 100%, allies for 170% (righteousness as we knew it)
*Moontouched feat is reduced from 5% HP per 3 s to now 3% only.
Feywild 4th boon (Elven tranquility) now heal us for the 170% of intended amount (~670 instead of 400 per min. Enraged Regrowth heal remains unchanged at 250 per tick for 4s every 75s or so.
Overall I approve of the righteousness reording. If anything it'll make it clearer for new players, and any boost to our output, no matter how tiny, is welcomed and long overdue. I do not think moontouched deserve a nerf.
This second table illustrates the value of righteousness in current compared to module 3 content. Assume the current outgoing heal is 100. You heal others for 100 but self for 60. I have then extrapolated this to preview server (with 10% boost) to see how powerful the healing will be in module 3. Assume base crit severity of 175%.
Basically all healing improved by ~10%. Healing on allies get a 2% extra bonus due to the larger multipliers.
Take home message:
Righteousness mechanic has been rebranded, but result is largely the same.
Compared to live, in module 3 all of the DC's abilities will be boosted by 10% (damage and healing). I have not tested enough to assess whether this was from tweaking righteousness or the reworking of power stat.
All in all, our healing for solo AND group situations will be 10% stronger. Healing on allies will continue to be stronger (70% stronger) than self heals, which is the status quo anyway.
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Module 4 Comprehensive DC guide |Module 4 MoF CW Handbook |New! Scourge Warlock Guide| NW Numbers and Mechanics guide |Crit, Power and DPS guide | Dungeon Delving guide and more
Taking a very simplistic view, a total of the + and - percentages ends up approximately with -70% and +50% (overall a -20% reduction).
Is it simply a case then of not using HW and BoH then to maximize the gains?
Whenever I see class changes the posts are quite naturally made by experienced people normally well into end game.
But what's the thought on leveling the class from scratch with these changes?
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
From a PVE perspective low end tier dungeons you will be a true asset. Not so much on high end but that has not changed and I doubt that will.
In short if you want to run low tier Dungeons go for it level it up. Anything else forget about it just not worth it anymore.
Basically Good game Cryptic destroyed a potential GREAT class. All we really had was PVP now we do not even have that. More so they do not care. We where promised a rework to make us viable again in PVP due to there rushed out patch but we where lied to. There is no official discussion thread on it. So they have made up there mind it is what it is. With no data to support the rework and no testing they accept the changes as being what has to be done to make the class completely useless. IF it where not the case and they wanted feedback on it there would be an official thread on it but there is not. #My cries have been heard there actually is an official thread now and we are in it!#
BTW to truly see what one is talking about divide all above values by 2 as you take 50 percent less healing from all sources with the PVP debuff and then realize that you have over 35k health. You quickly see that if you get focused by even one player you will die in seconds as you would not have the 12 years it would take to heal yourself up. This is a problem because you can do nothing dead even keeping your team alive. Which is not really possible anymore as your heals really do not do much to them either with the 50 percent debuff to healing.
TL;DR In PVP we are a waste of space now the slot is best served with another DPS. Our heals keep no one alive nor our self alive. We where never needed in Tier 2 Dungeons. No reason to level a Cleric unless you just want to solo.
Clerics are only useful in pvp , if fully supported by team to be kept alive, thus its even worse then it seems, you are NO longer the supporter and leader class, but the liability to the team function, it is much better to roll any class right now and bring it (unfortunately the alt Ive been leveling has been a CW, another class that has taken many hits in the pvp world.)
These changes, do nothing to remedy the simple fact that in PVP, the cleric offers very little besides buffing capabilities. Those do not make up for bringing any other class right now.
Im saddened because there is no way they are going to push anything new at this point, just rework the points they have and fine tune them.
In PVE, we mostly can find spots , but Ive even been kicked out of groups in GG, after they rolled a party because poeple were complaining my DC was there, they kept on saying, not needed, we can do more with without him ect.. I contend thats not the truth, between healing/buffing I should be the equivalent of another dps slot, but its really hard to convince alot of people of that, since they do not see the buffing #s.
Oh well, only a couple of days before eso headstart. I play healers, have for years and love the healing role. If a game doesn't offer an enjoyable experience I don't look to play other classes, I look to play other healers.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
That view is indeed simplistic, and also basically wrong as a consequence: note that the powers with -ve changes are straight-up heals, and the only powers in our tree that HAVE tooltip numbers for the heal they provide (FF, heals from sunburst, astral seal ticks, astral shield ticks, all of these have no tooltip for heal amount). They stated that heals were being reduced to 60% of their current value, and lo: they have been.
EVERYTHING ELSE (and, in fact, also those self-same heals, since they seem to be around 64-66%, rather than 60%) has been increasd by 10% or so. So we'll do 10% more damage to everything, heal ourselves for 10% more, and heal allies for about 12% more.
Ok, we're not a deeps class anyway, so +10% of 'mild deeps' is a mild buff, but it's still a buff, basically. Righteousness is still there (as is healing depression etc in PvP) and it still makes absolutely zero sense, and we'll still die constantly in PvP while being unable to heal ourselves or allies, but it's overall still a mild buff.
As for the doomsayers saying clerics are now dead in PvP, honestly: aside from a few very dedicated (and/or highly geared) folks, DCs have been dead in PvP for ages. The only viable DC builds were those that exploited as many non-DC-specific mechanics as possible, because self-heals are more or less a joke. Yes, self heals are now even more of a joke and all the non-specific mechanics got kerbstomped too, but that's more or less like saying "I've broken all my limbs and been impaled on a spike, but now they've ALSO shot me" -the damage was done long ago, this is just redundant extra stuff for those that didn't get the hint.
As for "PvP being the only place clerics were needed", I think you're spending too much time in PE listening to zonechat. Join legit and you'll find DCs are still very much in demand.
Is that about right?
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
\o/
(what, you were expecting otherwise?)
Still, a 10% buff is better than no buff at all, but.....seriously why is righteousness still a thing what the hell
Oh boy that was my fear once I saw the power rework, low base damage/heal would be destroyed (astral shield), and with the new DC changes FF that was the best heal we had is gone.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
As far as I can see, the power changes massively favour end-game ubergeared powerstacked peeps, and I know you've got a ton of power, so of course you'll see a positive change.
What this change mostly does (power-wise) is substantially widen the gap between low gear and high gear performance (so overgeared peeps have an even easier faceroll time, undergeared peeps get even more kerbstomped), and righteousness-wise it kills the remaining non-righteousness affected heals like forgemasters, and further makes PvP a miserable experience, but does give us about a 10% boost on heals, so we're only at -34% rather than -40%. So woo! Still zero reason for righteousness to exist at all, though.
Well then yes it's clearly strongly favouring power stacking creeps (pun intended) like me. Powerful characters are going to be even more powerful. Yay, more facerolling!
I left NW more than half year due to zerg fest dungeon boss fight & Righteousness. Decided to return playing few weeks ago, still disappointed with the dungeon. As for Righteousness... it is forgiven since the threat generation has been addressed and I do have some room to breathe during test run.
Now for the coming changes and (ref: the first table) based from the tooltip (it was base amount yes?) table, I was wondering why on earth that Healing Word & Bastion of Health bases (I use this two encounter quite alot to recharge my pip quickly) is reduced if healing is going to be improved. It gives me the feeling that part or half of the (probably) rework/tweaking on Righteousness is just by simply take away significant base amount from this two skill and shove it into other skills. I don't like this if that is the case...