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Discussion: Righteousness Rework
vorphied
Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
So...
Righteousness: This power has been reworked to now provide a healing bonus of 70% to allies. Cleric Feats and Powers now heal by about 40% less than they previously did but overall still heal allies about 10% more than they previously did.
We obviously won't have actual numbers until we can play this patch on Preview, but if what is stated here is accurate, then it would appear to me that Righteousness and healing powers are being reworked in such a way that the DC experiences little difference in self healing and allies experience more healing from the DC.
I don't want to appear ungrateful for any improvement, but if you're going to reexamine Righteousness at all, why are DCs still slated to receive a significantly lower benefit from their own heals? This looks to be more of a semantics change than a change in performance, excepting the slight bonus heal that allies are projected to receive. What's the point of this?
Further, if this change causes Forgemaster's Flame to have a 40% lower base healing amount, then it's an additional nerf for support DCs in PvP. Nice for the team to get 10% more healing from it, but it would amount to a huge nerf for the DC's ability to heal itself.
I don't want to grab the torches and pitchforks just yet since the patch is not available for testing at this time, but I am pretty concerned and extremely disappointed. Why all the verbal gymnastics if simply to say that allies receive 10% more healing and that it's otherwise status quo. Not exactly the improvement any of us had in mind, I think.
Righteousness: This power has been reworked to now provide a healing bonus of 70% to allies. Cleric Feats and Powers now heal by about 40% less than they previously did but overall still heal allies about 10% more than they previously did.
We obviously won't have actual numbers until we can play this patch on Preview, but if what is stated here is accurate, then it would appear to me that Righteousness and healing powers are being reworked in such a way that the DC experiences little difference in self healing and allies experience more healing from the DC.
I don't want to appear ungrateful for any improvement, but if you're going to reexamine Righteousness at all, why are DCs still slated to receive a significantly lower benefit from their own heals? This looks to be more of a semantics change than a change in performance, excepting the slight bonus heal that allies are projected to receive. What's the point of this?
Further, if this change causes Forgemaster's Flame to have a 40% lower base healing amount, then it's an additional nerf for support DCs in PvP. Nice for the team to get 10% more healing from it, but it would amount to a huge nerf for the DC's ability to heal itself.
I don't want to grab the torches and pitchforks just yet since the patch is not available for testing at this time, but I am pretty concerned and extremely disappointed. Why all the verbal gymnastics if simply to say that allies receive 10% more healing and that it's otherwise status quo. Not exactly the improvement any of us had in mind, I think.
Sacrilege - Warlock
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Post edited by vorphied on
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Definitely need to keep an eye on this, but it may actually be great depending on what is meant when by "allies".
Iyon the Dark
I fear that the OP was pretty clear about the way it's intended to work. If they decrease base healing amount by ~40% across the board and apply the 70% bonus only to friendly targets, it should be pretty much the same net effect as now plus an additional 10% heal to friendlies. I have a hard time imagining any circumstance under which this will be beneficial to the DC.
On the other hand, as tyrtallow also noted, we don't know what the exact values are yet, so we'll see.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
So this means when I slip on a healing word to keep myself from dying in PVP instead of the now 150 a tick I am getting I will received 90 healing a tick? You have got to be kidding me.... What did Clerics ever do to the developers?
I give up...
/rerolls a TR
35k HP and it already takes a year to heal myself up.....
Nope. The math doesn't work. 1.7 * 0.6 = 1.02, not 1.1. Either their math is wrong or righteousness is effectively removed.
Iyon the Dark
No matter what math they use we still get shafted on healing our self. Worse so then now it would seem. It is already crazy bad in pvp right now and it looks like it will be worse.
If the righteous penalty is not removed that is like an 80 percent nerf to self healing. Then include in the 50 percent PVP debuff everyone has. That is 130 percent less healing. Hell our healing will be draining us of life. We use a healing spell and instantly DIE. It had to happen some day.
A developer got mad he could not kill a Cleric one day and said OMG so OP nerfbat time. He even tried his .kill comand and the Cleric stole his power and used it against him. So yeah this is what we get. We try to heal our self in PVP it is instant death and a forfit of the match and the other team wins and we are forced to delete our char.
My money is on their math not being expressed properly. Sounds more like they were intending to reflect an overall 10% healing increase to friendly targets and suffered a minor brain HAMSTER, thinking that stating the increase as 70% rather than 60% would represent an effective increase of 10%.
There's no way that they are reducing base heal values by ~40% and having it be a good thing for DC self-healing. If they intended for the 70% bonus to apply to the caster as an eligible friendly target, there would be no point to such a convoluted adjustment; they would just declare Righteousness abolished and not spend time changing heal values and tooltip descriptions. It would also be highly uncharacteristic of them to implement any change that significantly improved DC quality of life.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
So let me see if I understand this properly. They are making changes so complicated they can not even explain it right and this is suppose to be a good thing? When developers tinker with things they obviously do not understand or they need to hire someone to explain it it is so complicated chances are the change will not be good for anyone involved.
Why can they just not admit Righteousness was a bad idea? A healing class that can not HEAL ITSELF? In what lore does this fit? I have searched through all rule sets and can not find any justification of Righteousness. Am I missing something? An idea that can not be justiified and lore that can not be justified and mechanics that can not be justified. It does not need to exist it SHOULD NOT exist and is only destroying PVP as taking away our only mechanism for survival.
Also why are we the only class with a negative class bonus? If we heal for 40 percent less then why can not Guardians take 40 percent more damage when tanking? If we take 40 percent less healing then let DPS classes do 40 percent less damage. It is only right.
Supposedly Righteousness originally had something to do with DCs being perceived as having an unfair leveling advantage in that they didn't require consumables (i.e. healing potions) to the same degree that other classes did.
Even if this is so, why Cryptic didn't quickly acknowledge that this was a stupid reason and repeal Righteousness, I have no idea. DC design apologists and players accustomed to rolling undergeared PUGs often go on about how DCs would be immortal and completely unbalanced if they could heal themselves with full efficiency, but anyone who has played against real competition knows this to be an unsupportable argument.
From a PvE perspective, why anyone should want DCs to heal themselves for less is beyond me. It's not like DCs are threatening to take over any other class' role regardless of their healing output. It's an extremely annoying and arbitrary-seeming limitation to the class, and while those of us with good equipment and skill are doing fine in end-game PvE despite Righteousness, undergeared players with less-than-perfect builds (god forbid they might need time to learn the class) are constantly seen to be struggling with this very un-fun and counter-intuitive mechanic.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
For example:
Before
Healing World - 600 for self, 1000 heal for others
Now with new changes
we don't have less self heal so it would be 1000 for DC, but all skills have 40% less healing so in overall - 600 for self, 1020 for others
REALLY?
I don't know what to do, whether to laugh or cry.
IKnowThatFeelBro.png
I move that they also remove GF's Shield while in PVP. It is the same thing and makes about as much since. They have there shield to protect them and we have our heals. We get our heals taken away and they keep there shield? Does not seem fair. They have an unfair advantage. More over I move that we remove DPS weapons as well. We can not do the one thing we are suppose to be good at so how is it fair they get to DPS?
As a matter of fact when we walk into a PVP arena I think we should all be naked have no abilities and beat each other with sticks. This way no one can claim anyone else is OP. Or that class can use a stick better then this class as everyone will be equal.
So basically DCs are relatively slightly worse off than before, but rather than describing Righteousness as a nerf to DCs they 'rebrand' it as a buff to every other class?
Okay........
No, if righteousness is replaced with 70% bonus heals to ourselves and 40% less heals from powers/feats, that's a change from 60% heals to 1.7 * 0.6 = 102% heals. Or 70% more heals for DCs on themselves.
Many read 'allies' and have assumed it excludes yourself.
Check the skills from http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Devoted_Cleric.
14 of 20 times allies is referenced in a way that includes the DC. 6/20 times allies and the DC are referenced separately (potential redundancy). 0/20 times allies are referenced in a way that purposely excludes the DC from its definition.
Iyon the Dark
Keep in mind that we're comparing a patch note description to in-game tooltips. Also, while I am all for the power of positive thinking, why would they go about marrying a reduction in base heal values with a buff in heal efficiency for "allies" if they were going to allow the caster to be counted as an ally for the purpose of applying the buff? It's needlessly complicated and makes no sense to do so.
We'll see soon enough, so I guess it really doesn't bear too much discussion, but I will be completely shocked if the "allies usually includes the DC" interpretation of this new Righteousness mechanic turns out to be the correct one. All we can do is cross our fingers lol.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I doubt that this is the case, but it would be interesting if so. We'll see when we get to test.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
// In all seriousness, this seems to me a way of sugarcoating -- possibly in hopes that most cleric players don't have a long term memory. Can't complain if it's phrased so nice, right?
(1) If cryptic's goal is to effectively remove righteousness, my interpretation accomplishes this. Perhaps because there is some reason (programmatic?) to rework rather than remove the power.
(2) It's not complicated. Righteousness will now increase heals by 70%, but powers/feats heals are reduced by 40%. 2% increase for all, plus another 40% increase for DCs due to removal of 40% healing debuff.
(3) If it were just the patch note description vs in-game tool-tips, I'd agree. Not the best comparison. But take that with the math, and I'm tempted to believe my interpretation.
(4) Agreed. It's a moot point until we can test it or until a dev replies. But let's not QQ until we know for sure. This could be an AWESOME thing for DCs.
Iyon the Dark
It's not the math that's complicated. As previously noted, it would be a lot of adjustments to powers and tooltips when they could accomplish the same net effect by simply changing Righteousness from a 40% self-heal debuff to a 2% buff to outgoing heals. Why all the verbage for just that?
The one thing that does give me pause, though, is that I can't think of any existing mechanic off the top of my head that allows for outgoing heals to be buffed for allies and not the DC at the same time. I could be missing something, or maybe it's a new mechanic that they're implementing.
Anyway, let's just say that I prefer to be prepared to be properly pessimistic (say that 10 times quickly). I'd much rather begin with the negative interpretation and be pleasantly surprised by a positive outcome. Thus far negative feedback on DC changes has been largely ignored, or at the very least not acted upon, so I wanted to raise awareness as early in the process as possible, even if that meant calling it out before tests begin
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I don't want to wax too negative for too long at the risk of eating my words later; the point of making this thread was to start drawing attention to this change as early in the Preview process as possible in case the less favorable and more obvious interpretation proved correct. We'll find out soon.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Well if this is the case why not just buff powers and do away with righteousness all together. Why take the time to reduce the powers only to buff them.. Does not make any sense. The only thing we can conclude from this logically is that evidently we are taking yet another hit in self healing.
Yep. Many effects that granted healing such as boons was incorrectly effected by righteousness. I assume this will be fixed now.
As I have said from the beginning I don't die with my cleric in PvE until everybody else dies. Righteousness is not the issue. It is a scape goat that players blame when they do die.
And the reason players blame it is purely because of the wording. When players see penalties they think negatively. It's illogical but it has to do with the human psyche.
WoW released a Rest Penalty long ago which reduced XP gain if you didn't occasionally rest. Players went up in arms at how they were penalized. So WoW changed it so base XP was reduced all around but people got bonus XP if you rested. It changed nothing in the way things functioned but it changed the players perception of it.
It took a while but Cryptic finally did the same thing.
And the added perk is it should also fix some bugs.
The recent failure of JC Penny's is large scale proof at how equal values have drastically different perceptions. Logically it is the same however when players actually give "more healing to others" rather than "less healing towards themselves" the perceptions will change and the scapegoat will no longer be the quick answer.
I understand PVE it might be ok but the mechanics and game is so different in PVP. In PVP all we have to survive the onslaught is our heals. So using the above example of 900 being focused in PVP would give the 900 heal to the Cleric 450 health. You do understand we have health pools up over 35k.... This is what a .1 percent heal....... What is that suppose to do to help me? I am not alive I can not heal. I am just a wasted space in PVP.
This is the equiv of taking away a tanks shield. Or a DPS's weapon. Why are they not doing that? They take away our ability to do our job and to survive the only thing we have to survive then they should take away every classes ability to do what they do. This IS NO SCAPEGOAT. This is a real problem.
I am seriously getting ticks of 150-300 health on a healing word in PVP on myself. This is much lower then the example that was given. If you think this is okay I just have no clue what to tell you. This is not okay and is ridiculous and utter madness. Why would they do this? Do they not play the game?
*I am going out to eat. I want someone to call up the devs while I am out and explain to them how bad it is for a Cleric in PVP at the moment and how they destroyed that class in PVP. So let's see some changes for the better to improve the Clerics quality of life in PVP when I get back.
**Returned and still no one explained to the devs there own game. What is really sad is before the PVP patch came out they where told about what this patch would do to Clerics. They did not listen. THEN after it comes out they said okay yeah okay fine Clerics will be reworked. Well guess what it is not the right kind of reworked. REWORDING and nerfing is not going to fix our problem that the PVP patch made.
I am really passionate about this as I shelved my cleric in hopes one day the Devs wake up and decide that they want to learn there own game and mechanics in the game and see that the PVP patch made Clerics obsolete as we can not survive now due to the fact our heals are not enough to keep us alive. Yet they still allow tanks to have shields in PVP. If they take away the tanks shield in PVP I will gladly be silent about taking away my ability to heal myself in PVP.
OR OR OR or just put a big red target on our back and a flashing neon saying FREE KILL. I am a cleric I can not defend myself in any way shape or form my damage sucks and I CAN NOT HEAL myself. Hell least in neverwinter nights Clerics had shields.
The bad decisions follow no logic. Follow no lore. They just are all around HORRIBLE decisions of any MMO ever. Taking place Above Bright Wizards. Yeah yeah I said it. We are the opposite end of Broken that Bright Wizards where. While they where OP we are SEVERELY under powered. I can say the Bright Wizards where the WORST design mistake of any MMO to ever existed before the DC of Neverwinter. Yet for opposite reasons.
So all else fails NW will go down in history for at least that. Here is your Failamy.
What kind of game lies to there players?
Maybe what we *should* be asking the devs for is something rather radical but could be a very fun change: reduce tenacity for cleric damage. Basically make clerics do more damage in PvP to be competitive with the DPS classes. Clerics would obviously have to change their play style when playing PvP to do this but just think how crazy fun it would be? The class has all these nifty attack encounters we could dust off and actually use instead of the regular PvE support role stuff we normally do.
Also take it you have not really done any competitive PVP. Clerics die even good tank Clerics die. They die a lot. We just slow down the process. Yes in pug versus pug yeah you can destroy it. So can a good GWF. So can a good CW. Yet take any of these classes against high skilled geared players and what will you have? They will not last nearly as long.
So please stop feeding bad information. It is the reason we get bad patches that destroy us is due to bad information the devs are getting.
Since when was Righteousness about giving bad players an excuse to play poorly? This is not the issue at all, and just because a decent DC can manage to PvE fine with this handicap doesn't mean that it makes sense or that it's healthy for the game. It also remains discouraging for new players and for the undergeared, who depend more on their direct healing powers to compensate for lack of great builds and great equipment.
I really hope that this "rework" turns out to be better than it looks in the patch notes, because changing the wording while keeping the net effect the same would be ridiculous and more than a little insulting. I'd prefer actual gameplay improvements over a more positive spin on the tooltip that rebrands a much-hated mechanic as a buff to try to manipulate player perceptions.
(For the record, I am hoping that the Preview Shard proves positive speculation to be correct, but I just don't have it in me to be optimistic about DC changes anymore. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised.)
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH