Need Helpful Pointers for lousy PVP TR!

chestnut13

Thanks all in advance! I like this game but have only focused on PVE. I avoided PVP at all until about 2 weeks ago but needed to earn some AD. My build is focused on PVE and I don't want to change that but I'd like to have some tweaks here and there to become a bit better at PVP. I find it both fun and frustrating (GWFs and GFs turn me into a pinata). I am 52 and an admitted spaz on a keyboard so there is not a great deal to work with ... but I hold my own well in PVE without shame! I would just like to be contribute better to a team. I just played three rounds and won 2 and lost 1:

Loss - Team 1st 4800pts, 2 kills, 10 deaths, 26 assists
Win - Team 2nd 1500pts, 3 kills, 8 deaths, 13 assists
Win - Team 1st 2450pts, 7 kills, 1 death, 14 assists

The general patters repeats. Very few kills, I die alot ... a real lot. In fact, these are not indicative of the usual ... it's more like 4 kills, 18 deaths, 22 assists.

Now, I don't mind dying when it helps the team. I am not sure about correct strategy but when 3 opponents are chasing me around and it takes 30 seconds to kill me, I think that helps my team if they take the other nodes. I am whisperknife and run with Shadow Strike, Impact Shot, and VP. At wills are DF and DS. As I have very little survivability and am not perma (and don't wish to be), so I tend to harrass from range until someone is below half health, VP in, try to take them out ... die ... respawn. This new patch really threw me as I traded in my Skulker for new gear and now have very few hit points and I am not sure if tenacity is really helping me.

I am hoping some of you can review this and give me some suggestions and pointers.

Should I dump vorpal and soulforged for something else? I know I could use regen but at what cost? I also only have a level 1 mount and I know upgrading would help. It's just so expensive and I refuse to drive one of those apparatuses.

Thanks so much for your time and attention!!!

Not sure if this is way to do it ... but here is my character shot .... can't figure out how to paste it in here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4afpsmncpx5neq6/screenshot_2014-03-15-11-34-42.jpg

todesfaelle

Hey, Chestnut13. Can you also put a screenshot of your feats as well? I'm really not sure where to start since there are a lot of factors that may lead to you not being able to perform efficiently but allow me to try. But before we begin let me answer some of your more basic questions. Vorpal and Soulforged are still good! Keep them. And as a Whisperknife you will find that Regen will not benefit you much because you will get hit a lot and will be affected by Healing Depression. Better if you slot Waters of Elah'zad so it cleanses you of the Healing Depression. For the mount, you may wish to purchase the cheapest rank 3 mount, the Stormrider Clydesdale for 2.5k ZEN. It looks good and it runs fast. Moving on to the more complicated portions of this post which is the foundations of your build and some strategy as well.

Whisperknives generally have a harder time holding nodes against teams compared to Master Infiltrators because of their lack of ITC. But WK's have the advantage of being able to teleport from place to place with Vengeance's Pursuit. Using this key feature of the WK that Master Infiltrators do not have, you will be able to land attacks that would normally be hard to land on opponents such as Dazing Strike, a skill us Master Infiltrators consider as a telegraphed attack outside of Stealth. But as a WK, you'll be able to land it more easily. So I suggest using Dazing Strike in place of Impact Shot for the added CC. Shadow Strike and VP are good to go.

Also, since you currently have the PVP Scoundrel Gear equipped, it'd be best to make the most out of it. You get 25% increased Stealth whenever you are wearing the set. Considering the play style you described that you use, I'm guessing you tend to play the role of the diversion for the team. A feat setup like this would increase your performance for PVP while retaining your viability for PVE. This feat setup extends your Stealth by 20%, which is a TR's lifeline in PVP. You get a total of 45% if you factor the Scoundrel gear as well. The reason why you tend to die fast in PVP is because of the TR's inherent weakness which is low defense. Tenacity helps increase the mitigation a bit, but in a meta where GWF's/GF's can turn you into a ping-pong ball, and CW's can make short work out of you by perma-CC, having the ability to at least prevent these to make sure you are able to react to their actions and not allow them to stack any more attacks on you would allow you to contribute to your team even better by being a diversion, and by having some node-holding capabilities. This is where Stealth comes in. But this will not make your play style reliant on Stealth, it'll just improve it by a little. The feat setup we have in that link makes it so that you hit hard in and out of Stealth. You'll have Cunning Ambusher for 6% more damage whenever you exit Stealth, and an additional 6% damage for your encounters as well thanks to Endless Assault. Not to mention you get a chance of increasing the power of your strikes by a whopping 20%, at a 35% chance on a non-critical hit. It'll hit fairly often for sure. But the key feature of the feat setup is Determined Pursuit which slows down your opponents hit by VP by 40%. This'll make Dazing Strike easier to land regardless if you use VP from Stealth or not (better if it's from Stealth for the Stun). After landing Dazing Strike, your opponent should be both Slowed and Dazed, meaning you can land your DF on him with relatively more ease as well. Dazing Strike is a low cooldown encounter which makes it a good skill to pair with other low CD encounters such as Shadow Strike and VP (0 CD). The rotation is pretty much this.

Stealth - VP 1st Activation - Dish Strike until Stealth is almost out - VP 2nd Activation + Dazing Strike (DaS Combo, a Kweassa specal) - Duelist's Flurry - Shadow Strike - Stealth - Rinse and repeat.

It's a simple rotation that concentrates on pelting the opponent with some Bleeds from range while in Stealth to soften them up. And before Stealth runs out, you close in on them to melee range with VP's 2nd activation which Stuns them, and also giving them a Slow and Daze, rendering them unable to react and subject to your volley of DF's for additional Bleeds. The crucial point of this rotation is to refill your Stealth via Shadow Strike so you can do this rotation all over again. And once you do, you go back in Stealth and repeat the process. Soften them up, close in on them, deal even bigger damage, go back out.

So to summarize the skills you'll be using for this feat setup...

At-Wills: Duelist's Flurry, Disheartening Strike.
Encounters: Vengeance's Pursuit, Shadow Strike, Dazing Strike.
Class Features: Dagger Threat, Advantageous Position.
Dailies: Hateful Knives, Whirlwind of Blades.

You may have noticed that I included Advantageous Position in the powers setup. This'll make it so that leaving Stealth will give you some degree of protection against ranged attacks that can hit you while in a team gank. Dagger Threat will increase the damage your Disheartening Strike does, so it will bleed your opponent for larger amounts of damage. Better if it crits. This is your only ranged attack in this power setup since you lose Impact Shot, but it's effective nonetheless because it is the only At-Will in the game that can deal as much damage as that even though its a DoT Bleed.

chestnut13

Wow ... thank you so much for taking the time to respond in that way. Much appreciated! I had crazy thoughts no one would answer and I'd have to roll a GWF, buy the best gear, name him RogueHunter and spend the rest of my life exterminating TRs. Phew.

Here is a link to my feats:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1q7c1d6cissv588/screenshot_2014-03-16-11-39-11.jpg

They are not terribly different from your suggestions. It seems my choice will be to extend stealth and lose Deadly Momentum ... not sure about that. I'd definitely like to increase my damage from DS and was wondering if switching to Bilethorn from Vorpal would help. I'm not particularly thrilled about the PVP gear change that makes you have to carry two sets of armor and enchants that have no cross usage.

I did a couple of runs using the DS instead of IS and it takes some getting used to ... as I mentioned, as a keyboard spaz spamming range attacks is easier than doing combos! But I can see that there are some times where it really lets you pound on someone.

Is soulforged still worth it compared to Barkshield anymore? When it procs, with the nerf on health, I seem to die pretty quickly anyway and the skull has so much less efficacy.

Going to do a few more runs and test some more. Thanks again mate!

todesfaelle

It's no problem. As for your feats, you actually do not have to drop Deadly Momentum since you can't use Paragon Feats on Heroic Feats. You'll have to drop your T4 feats from your Heroic Feats, namely Scoundrel Training and Disciple of Strength, in order to put 5 points to Improved Cunning Sneak. I assure that it will be worth it. And as for increasing damage via DS, Vorpal is your best enchantment. When you score a critical bleed from Disheartening Strike, it'll tick for bigger amounts. Even better if you have a P. Vorpal. DS is the only At-Will in the game apart from Aimed Shot that could deal more than 20k damage in crits with a P. Vorp. But you may also wish to carry a separate dagger around with a Bilethorn Enchantment slotted. You'll be able to use both anyway, since Bilethorn is very synergistic with Duelist's Flurry.

Soulforged is still worth it, but Barkshield works very well with TR's because of our Stealth. We can recharge the Barkshield stacks by waiting in Stealth and then go in again.

If there are any other questions please feel free to ask. There are a lot of other TR's in the forum who may be able to help.

pindaop

u need 5 in swift footwork and improved cunning,dont use df as whisperknife coz no itc.

chestnut13

Update: I respec'd close to your suggestions and that's quite a difference! I stay in stealth significantly longer. The good thing is that it also significantly raised my GS so much better for getting into dungeons in PVE. The bad thing is it also significantly raised my GS ... lol ... I am getting tossed into groups against premades and getting whupped. I am actually fairing quite a bit better though. I can actually 1v1, 1v2 adequately and hold nodes longer. I was flattered that it took 4 to take me out earlier today!

I also picked up a lesser Barkshield and replaced Soulforged. This was an amazing differnence. There is only a small downside to dying in PvP while an enourmous one in a dungeon and I can't imagine running PvP again without one. The longer stealth time I have recharges it and I do last quite a bit longer.

Thanks for the tips!! ... although not sure about the last one .... never heard of swift footwork. Maybe I am missing something.

pindaop

there are 3 feats for stamina regeneration swift footwork,nimble dodge, and last sharandar boon most pvp tr have atleast 2. makes huge difference with dodging.

crystal892f

todesfaelle wrote: »

<collection of great tips>

Hey todesfaelle, some notes / questions to this part.

1.) VP feated slow: from my experience this slow lasts very short (not as short as the VP stun, but still) - too short to hit a full rotation of DF (at least during my tests). Which, leads me to...
2.) DF during daze: Because the VP slow lasts not long enough for the flurry to start, I'm not sure enemy players can't just move out of the flurry, that it doesn't actually hit - or only in parts. Did you consistently manage to hit the complete rotation you mentioned?

todesfaelle wrote: »

You may have noticed that I included Advantageous Position in the powers setup. This'll make it so that leaving Stealth will give you some degree of protection against ranged attacks that can hit you while in a team gank.

Combat Advantage reduces the damage you take from ranged attacks? I thought it "only" increases the damage.

pindaop wrote: »

u need 5 in swift footwork

and

pindaop wrote: »

nimble dodge

No, you don't need them.

pindaop wrote: »

dont use df as whisperknife coz no itc.

Yes, WK lacks ITC, but don't make it look like he has to change it. In top-end PvP you might have to go MI because of ITC, but for anything else WK is just fine. I know, I play a WK in non-premade groups.


Anyways, @chestnut13: If you follow todesfaelle's build, you also might wanna test (best on preview first) this feat setup. It goes Scoundrel all the way and although damage wise the capstone feat "Whirlwind Sneak Attack" is inferior to Executioner's "Overrun Critical", it is a guaranteed damage increase after leaving stealth and synergizes very well with the "in and out" playstyle (the +15% encounter damage also stacks with +6% from Cunning Ambusher and +6% from Endless Assault).
So from the feats alone you have a damage increase of 27% for Dazing Strike after you teleported in with VP (which makes you leave stealth, so all the "after stealth" feats get to work).
Now with the class feature "Advangeous Position" you also stay in Combat Advantage after leaving stealth which also boosts your damage a bit.
Also does this Scoundrel feat setup increase the damage of DF, because Dazing Strike will debuff due to "Catpaw Style" (3rd tier). And with "Action Rush" (4th tier) you will notice how more often you will have your daily up.
I can just advise you to play around with this a bit and see if you like it. I definately do.

Also, another encounter setup / rotation I've been testing for a few days is:
Stealth
-> Disheartening Strike
-> stealthed Dazing Strike (makes you leave stealth)
-> Path of Blades
-> Duelist's Flurry until daze is about to run out
-> Shadow Strike
-> back to stealth
-> repeat

This way Path of Blades gets all the described (encounter) damage increases and against a single target - especially a squishier class - this does tons of mostly undodgeable (I think you can dodge single Path of Blades stabs, but there are far more stabs than any class will be able to dodge) damage.
You might wanna play around with this as well.

todesfaelle

crystal892f wrote: »

Hey todesfaelle, some notes / questions to this part.

1.) VP feated slow: from my experience this slow lasts very short (not as short as the VP stun, but still) - too short to hit a full rotation of DF (at least during my tests). Which, leads me to...
2.) DF during daze: Because the VP slow lasts not long enough for the flurry to start, I'm not sure enemy players can't just move out of the flurry, that it doesn't actually hit - or only in parts. Did you consistently manage to hit the complete rotation you mentioned?

Combat Advantage reduces the damage you take from ranged attacks? I thought it "only" increases the damage.

Hey, Crys!

1. Definitely. Which is why I'd much rather use that time when the opponent is slowed to hit an encounter that takes 0.5 seconds to activate which is Dazing Strike. After hitting Dazing Strike, that's when we DF. Jumping towards the direction where our opponent is makes landing DF easier.

2. Yep! I sort of read where the confusion was in my post. I didn't make it clear enough that the source of the Daze after VP's 2nd Activation was Dazing Strike.

3. And lastly, Advantageous Position, from my knowledge, reduces the damage ranged attacks deal to you apart from allowing us to retain Combat Advantage. It's a nifty class feature.

Edit: PS. That feat setup seems to work well in conjunction to the build. Good thing you called out that Scoundrel may work better for a WK.

yramrag

Helpful gameplay tips: make yourself unpredictable.

I dodge, a lot, during pvp. I sometimes hit a few times, then immediately dodge out, throw a few knives, dodge back in, hit again. Rogues moves faster and I also felt their shift-ability dodge faster and further (compared to DC and CW). Use dodge to make your moves unpredictable.

Also, don't be afraid to run when your health is low.

crystal892f

todesfaelle wrote: »

3. And lastly, Advantageous Position, from my knowledge, reduces the damage ranged attacks deal to you apart from allowing us to retain Combat Advantage. It's a nifty class feature.

Aah, my bad, I didn't read properly. I thought you meant CA itself reduces damage from ranged attacks.

chestnut13

I can't find Swift Footwork for the life of me ... I must looking in wrong place or crazy. I ran some today and was not really having a lot of succes with Dazing Strike so I switched out to Lashing Blade after playing against a rogue that was devestating me with it. I think it suits my playstyle better, which is range with Disheartening and teleport in on squishies or .... the best .... GWF with low HP (yum) and face tank him with DF ... while Bon Jovi plays in the background ... I'm going down, in a blaze of glory! I like being able to deal heavier damage and one shot people. Results were quite good!

I also came up against a rogue that destroyed me (very good group obvisously premade) that I just couldn't damage ... DF, LB ... no matter couldn't do anything to his health. I asked him to talk so I could see his build but he did not do so. (any other way of seeing opponensts builds?) Any ideas on what that means?

beckylunatic

Swift Footwork is a heroic feat.

pindaop

LOOK if u want to be good as tr easyest was is to play is master infiltrator to be specific "snow build" but with pob not impact.put points in con,int...
huge hp,recovery, more dodge, stealth,itc
gear:scoundrel set,dagger of thayan zealot,stilleto of thayan zealot,2 ring of preservation, pvp neck with 500 hp grim one dont know the name, all defence eadiant, offence silvery.
encounters itc,ss,pob, df atwill if u have vorpal u can put lashing....
this is the easyest setup to play.u are eather stealthed,itc,or dodging or in df which is way easyer to land coz itc.

chestnut13

pindaop wrote: »

LOOK if u want to be good as tr easyest was is to play is master infiltrator to be specific "snow build" but with pob not impact.put points in con,int...
huge hp,recovery, more dodge, stealth,itc
gear:scoundrel set,dagger of thayan zealot,stilleto of thayan zealot,2 ring of preservation, pvp neck with 500 hp grim one dont know the name, all defence eadiant, offence silvery.
encounters itc,ss,pob, df atwill if u have vorpal u can put lashing....
this is the easyest setup to play.u are eather stealthed,itc,or dodging or in df which is way easyer to land coz itc.

I do appreciate the thought! As I mentioned in beginning, I am almost completely a PVE player (although getting slightly addicted to PvP) and don't wish to compromise my PVE build or expect to be a top tier PVP player. I do like Whisperknife but might change in future but right now it's fine. I just want some ideas .. either spec tweaks, strategy, or gear suggestions to get better, make it more enjoyable for me, and to not be a liability for whatever pug I end up in. I know I will never be a great PVPer, but I still like to do the best that I can with what I have available ... and as I've also mentioned, I am a serious spaz on the keyboard. Ugh.

xyntrynz1a

I have another Build that is very good in PVE and PvP
All credit goes to ToadesFaella and I then added my own twist for my play style.

I will say, post patch PVP is kind of annoying. When in PUG games, most people are more concerned with personal points than winning the game. Teamwork on average doesn't happen anymore.

godlysoul2

xyntrynz1a wrote: »

I have another Build that is very good in PVE and PvP
All credit goes to ToadesFaella and I then added my own twist for my play style.

I will say, post patch PVP is kind of annoying. When in PUG games, most people are more concerned with personal points than winning the game. Teamwork on average doesn't happen anymore.

Hopefully leaderboards will fix this and not be point based.

chestnut13

xyntrynz1a wrote: »

I have another Build that is very good in PVE and PvP
All credit goes to ToadesFaella and I then added my own twist for my play style.

I will say, post patch PVP is kind of annoying. When in PUG games, most people are more concerned with personal points than winning the game. Teamwork on average doesn't happen anymore.

I concur. That's why I am trying to improve to be a better teammate. I know I'll never be dominant enough to control a match and see my role as support and diversion. I have to admit, I laugh out loud when opponents send 3 guys to demolish me on a node. If I can hold it just a bit longer than I used to be able to, my team can take and hold the other two nodes. I like to win and I really don't care if dying a lot accomplishes that. Of course, winning and not dying a lot is good too.

chestnut13

OK ... wanted to say thanks to all who gave me pointers and tips! I am definitely better. I just finished a pug game in which one guy disconnected 30 seconds in leaving us 4 vs 5. It was me, another TR, and 2 GWFs. We won by 250 pts and I finished top of board with 10 kills, 4 deaths, and 27 assists with 4900 pts ... didn't think it was possible!

chestnut13

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6hhes4hwbyxx0kq/Untitled.jpg

This really confused me. Felt like my pug was getting wiped yet somehow we were always ahead. Have a look at individual stats .... makes no sense. Could this be a premade just practicing battle tactics and not caring about winning?!