I used about the same rotation you mention but had meatball in place of chill strike. The Meatball seems almost too good to be true until you try using it against good teams.
Shard is supposed to be used in the Mastery slot, not like in PvE. Basically Entangle the guy, shard on their head (they're proned), and you get to push shard again to explode it on them. This is a stunlock 20K+ damage from a crit rotation. When proned, people are also defenseless to any other big damage attacks from your teammates, and a good team can chain prones, so CW+GWF/GF are quite awesome.
So you can use both Chill Strike and Shard. If rotation works properly and crits, you will pretty much put squishies directly in SF proc. If Chill Strike/Icy rays are timed correctly, they will hit before the guy on the ground can pop artifact.
Of course, in practice things are not that easy, but with a good team, as meldanen specified, you're pretty much set.
Shard is supposed to be used in the Mastery slot, not like in PvE. Basically Entangle the guy, shard on their head (they're proned), and you get to push shard again to explode it on them. This is a stunlock 20K+ damage from a crit rotation. When proned, people are also defenseless to any other big damage attacks from your teammates, and a good team can chain prones, so CW+GWF/GF are quite awesome.
So you can use both Chill Strike and Shard. If rotation works properly and crits, you will pretty much put squishies directly in SF proc. If Chill Strike/Icy rays are timed correctly, they will hit before the guy on the ground can pop artifact.
Of course, in practice things are not that easy, but with a good team, as meldanen specified, you're pretty much set.
Thanks! I made the op after a few shots of vodka and pvping thinking "dammit" lol. I am really glad I did, I am getting an education
main weakness of a cw is remedied by multiples of their own class.
as a rogue, there is just no avoiding getting cc'ed to oblivion when there are 3 wizards on the enemy team. we have a chance if there is just 2 but that depends on the rest of the team to survive.
I miss the old school PvP Mindflayer days. Back then when we knew that to mis time a dodge pretty much meant you were copping a Choke and 20k + Icy rays to the face. I still hold you as having some of the best 1v1 Cw duels back in old school Mindflayer pvp.
Desidus
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
In PvE.. It does NOT matter that the CW is OP. There really is no loser in pve, but in pvp that's a whole different story. When you are competing OPness is unfair to the other team. Who is going to complain that it is unfair for the bosses/adds in a dungeon?
You are a wizard yoy are supposed to be squishy with scary dmg plus in here you have control so yeah expect people to focus on you as a wizard for your dangerous dmg and annoying controls same thing for DC
Being a good Renegade also requires proper rolls and race. And the proper race in this case is, time to make Stox's brains hurt, Tiefling. I have chosen the wrong race, but whatever… I just adjust my stats. So I have maybe one more Defense slot than other CWs are running, because I didn't go CON. For that, I have CHA, which is the base for the Combat Advantage damage, which, again, is the base for the harder crits with Nightmare Wizardry. Main stat is INT ofc. Although the Halfling CC resist is a very nice thing, you gotta ask yourself: how often do you actually get CC'ed as a CW? If you're planning of facetanking all the CC, this might be a legit race for you. I rarely get CC'ed. So, even if I rerolled a Thaum, I would think twice before going Halfling. Tiefling is still the too-good-to-be-true damage class… or Human for the 3 extra feat points.
My Thaum rotation, after adding some Chill with RoF, is (usually) Icy Rays (to stop them from moving; if you're a Renegade being grabbed, this is the moment for Repel) -> Entangling -> Meatball on the head -> Chill Strike + RoF. Usually, that's enough to procc anyone's SF except Sentinel's. Wait till the SF HP is up, then push the Meatball in. GG.
Alternatively, RoE can be used instead of Chill Strike in a slightly different combo.
I miss the old school PvP Mindflayer days. Back then when we knew that to mis time a dodge pretty much meant you were copping a Choke and 20k + Icy rays to the face. I still hold you as having some of the best 1v1 Cw duels back in old school Mindflayer pvp.
Desidus
Yes. The good old days. Cinatra, Deceitful, Necro, Black, … R.I.P. in the Arcane Reservoir.
EL-OH-EL tell that to the GFs and TRs in the game who are the last option in making a group even within their own guild
they should probably find a better guild where there is no class discrimination
tbh my guild could totally run all cw/gwf but we don't b/c we will run a dungeon fast no matter what comp we run in
people who run those comps are simply slacking on their own dps!
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
Thanks for all this great insight from a top PvP CW (I never encountered you in person, but saw you play a bit in stox's videos)! (Is there any possibility somebody can see you play via youtube / twitch?)
But one thing I never understood is why Chaos Magic is so good. Because I read somewhere any effect of it overwrites the other. So, if you get the 15% debuff and keep attacking with MM, your next MM can already proc another effect and your debuff is gone already. Some info on that would be great.
If you also could post a link to your feats, it would help me even more.
Because not a long time ago I began a PvP CW (Halfling, CON roll, 20 CON at 60, sitting at ~32k HP) and use the "meatball" setup (SoEA in Tab, Icy Rays, RoE or Repel and Entangling Force). Feated I took of course HP and Crit and all AoE feats (in hope it increases SoEA's damage, which I'm actually not convinced of; I even made a thread in the CW forum about this, but nobody could assure me these feats (together with Evocation) properly affect SoEA).
Furthermore I went Thaumaturge through Snap Freeze to get Transcended Master to increase the damage of SoEA and IRs. The points left over I put into Oppressor's Severe Reaction and Brisk Teleport.
But just as you say: When playing against competent players - especially CWs and HRs - most of the time they make my shard disappear via CC.
And either it's latency, or I don't know, but I can't always chain Entangling Force to Shard drop (basic combo). I don't mean the CC-resist-chance kicking in, which drops a person to the ground almost immediately when lifted by EF. I mean the person is actually lifted, I drop the shard, but before it fully appears and drops, the CW dodges away. And since the CW dodge seemingly has an immunity window from start to end, they don't get hit, CC me and I'm in a very bad position to win this fight.
Unfortunately there is no good "power queue" in this game. Because I already hit Tab once to be able to aim the Shard drop asap after EF, so I cast EF and hit Tab again for the Shard drop. But when I hit Tab after EF too fast, when EF's animation isn't completed yet, it counts as not casted, and the Shard drops (-> no proper "power queue"). And without EF the Shard drop rarely hits, of course.
Anyways, because of the Shard disappearing when CC'ed, I thought about going Oppressor than Thaum and pick up to Nightmare Wizardry in Renegade. But since I'm not sure if this more control is worth it with the upcoming Tenacities CC resistance (and also the prone duration shortened, making the Shard setup even less prefereable) , I don't really now what to do yet. Your post gave me an interesting perspective about Renegade.
I wish I could copy a char to preview (website link?!) and find enough other players to play around with some builds.
I done a bit of PVP on my CW aswell and i kept getting 2shotted and though it's because of my gear or something but then i noticed that i could also kill people before they even know who was attacking them so i guess it's not really a problem of CW but the game in general, PVP is really bad and there is absolutely no counter-play involved.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thanks for all this great insight from a top PvP CW (I never encountered you in person, but saw you play a bit in stox's videos)! (Is there any possibility somebody can see you play via youtube / twitch?)
But one thing I never understood is why Chaos Magic is so good. Because I read somewhere any effect of it overwrites the other. So, if you get the 15% debuff and keep attacking with MM, your next MM can already proc another effect and your debuff is gone already. Some info on that would be great.
If you also could post a link to your feats, it would help me even more.
Because not a long time ago I began a PvP CW (Halfling, CON roll, 20 CON at 60, sitting at ~32k HP) and use the "meatball" setup (SoEA in Tab, Icy Rays, RoE or Repel and Entangling Force). Feated I took of course HP and Crit and all AoE feats (in hope it increases SoEA's damage, which I'm actually not convinced of; I even made a thread in the CW forum about this, but nobody could assure me these feats (together with Evocation) properly affect SoEA).
Furthermore I went Thaumaturge through Snap Freeze to get Transcended Master to increase the damage of SoEA and IRs. The points left over I put into Oppressor's Severe Reaction and Brisk Teleport.
But just as you say: When playing against competent players - especially CWs and HRs - most of the time they make my shard disappear via CC.
And either it's latency, or I don't know, but I can't always chain Entangling Force to Shard drop (basic combo). I don't mean the CC-resist-chance kicking in, which drops a person to the ground almost immediately when lifted by EF. I mean the person is actually lifted, I drop the shard, but before it fully appears and drops, the CW dodges away. And since the CW dodge seemingly has an immunity window from start to end, they don't get hit, CC me and I'm in a very bad position to win this fight.
Unfortunately there is no good "power queue" in this game. Because I already hit Tab once to be able to aim the Shard drop asap after EF, so I cast EF and hit Tab again for the Shard drop. But when I hit Tab after EF too fast, when EF's animation isn't completed yet, it counts as not casted, and the Shard drops (-> no proper "power queue"). And without EF the Shard drop rarely hits, of course.
Anyways, because of the Shard disappearing when CC'ed, I thought about going Oppressor than Thaum and pick up to Nightmare Wizardry in Renegade. But since I'm not sure if this more control is worth it with the upcoming Tenacities CC resistance (and also the prone duration shortened, making the Shard setup even less prefereable) , I don't really now what to do yet. Your post gave me an interesting perspective about Renegade.
I wish I could copy a char to preview (website link?!) and find enough other players to play around with some builds.
- you should take cooldwon reductions not AoE feats
- the shard combo is one of the hardest in the game to perform I'd say; I said this many times, as of now, I only know a single CW able to pull it off consistently
- you need to at least try to dodge stuns such as repels chill strikes etc. They are not that hard to deal with, even at my 300 ping. However HR constrict is another completely different issue You either need to switch shard, or just avoid the HR 1 vs 1, or survive through their combos and try to perform yours while not being constricted
- your halfling char with high Con roll is ideal I'd say for PvP; a very good starting point. As you get better enchants, you will be able to have high HP AND high ArP at the same time. This is pretty much a luxury low Con roll chars don't have, but we have higher Int.
- you should consider Elemental Empowerment as well
Basically, given the fact that a few people are able to play shard efficiently, I'll say all that you need is more practice. Keep in mind, some CWs out there are doing it for half a year
Again last night, more pvp on my cw, about 10 matches. I can't emphasize enough how much more difficult it s to drag a mediocre pug through a match on cw vs gwf. A lot of that is probably due to just how much more I've played gwf in pvp. Because cw is more challenging in pvp makes it more interesting. I am noticing that it is easier to just rack up kills on cw than to actually help the team win. Fighting on node is a nightmare, though you can kite the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the enemy. I am going to study this, practice it, and get good a it.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
....
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
- the shard combo is one of the hardest in the game to perform I'd say; I said this many times, as of now, I only know a single CW able to pull it off consistently
No idea who you are talking about, but the idea of using Shard in Tab I actually had myself. I tried it once and saw the potential. Certainly I'm not the first one using it, but I played with it and read afterwards that other people are using it (even though some months ago, when Shard couldn't crit yet, you were called "****" when taking such a "useless" power in Tab).
This specific power Setup (Shard in Tab, IRs, RoE and EF) I got from watching lantis.
- you need to at least try to dodge stuns such as repels chill strikes etc. They are not that hard to deal with, even at my 300 ping. However HR constrict is another completely different issue You either need to switch shard, or just avoid the HR 1 vs 1, or survive through their combos and try to perform yours while not being constricted
The problem is not that I can't time my dodges. Or wait out the HRs vine entanglement 3 times. The problem is if I see an opening window and start with EF, the described problem with the chain arises (Shard not hitting due to whatever, and getting CC'ed afterwards, make it disappear).
- your halfling char with high Con roll is ideal I'd say for PvP; a very good starting point. As you get better enchants, you will be able to have high HP AND high ArP at the same time. This is pretty much a luxury low Con roll chars don't have, but we have higher Int.
Yeah, I'm working on getting decent ArP (together with high HP) - definately not easy with low budget.
- you should consider Elemental Empowerment as well
I have this feat on my glass cannon CW. Definately helping in damage and I think the DoT can also proc Storm Spell / EoTS.
But as described with my HP CW I don't know which way to go yet.
Anyways, thanks for your input.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
- the shard combo is one of the hardest in the game to perform I'd say; I said this many times, as of now, I only know a single CW able to pull it off consistently
In an inferior team? In a pug? In 1v2? I've been PvP'ing with and against some of the greatest Meatball CWs so far (Lantiss, Allt, Sobek,…). I've seen them in inferior/even teams. My bottom line: handicap. Put one of them into a 1v2 against GF and GWF… or TR and CW… or TR and GWF… they will drop in under 5 seconds. I don't know who's the godly Meatball CW you're talking about, but once you've mastered the Meatball build and its timings, you can easily apply it to any tactic. It doesn't change the fact that the cooldown on Meatball and Icy Rays is too long. There are almost no dynamics. The difference between "Repel" and "no Repel" is like "2.2k Regen and 40k HP" and "0 Regen and 20k HP". Why even go Halfling and CON when you give up so much survivability by not running Repel? Plus the long cooldown…
It just doesn't make any sense to me. If you got a superior team, Meatball works out. Once the teams are even, Meatball is a handicap (in case the CW in the other team doesn't use it).
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
To be honest, this whole discussion will be redundant in a couple of weeks or something, when probably every CW (if there will be any left) will sport Repel and none Shard.
For now, I'm quite happy to see there aren't many CWs using shard, and even fewer able to pull it out decently. I can also understand why some people love repels as I played it for quite a few weeks.
To be honest, this whole discussion will be redundant in a couple of weeks or something, when probably every CW (if there will be any left) will sport Repel and none Shard.
For now, I'm quite happy to see there aren't many CWs using shard, and even fewer able to pull it out decently. I can also understand why some people love repels as I played it for quite a few weeks.
To each their own.
I change depending on what/who I am fighting. Most of the time I can get away with Shard, but sometimes when I am getting bee lined by enemies I need repel to get them off me
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
i love my cw i had in pvp before i left back in september. i have another one, but here is the thing of cw's.
you push recharge speed, get over 5k recovery with it, and you never really have to use an at will.. everything is encounters and dailies. add in a tome artifact, and boom dailies even a bit faster, which is already fast enough.
with one spell. you have the ability to prone a person 3 times.. just one. avalanche of steel in spel mastery slot. drop it on someone, then push it, prones twice, ast another spell, then push it back on top of them while they are still controlled for another prone, etc, and keep moving through spells, and let it explode on top of them. only one class usually survives a heavy fast recovery build like this, with crit/power after, and that is gwf. you have one true class that can survive against a cw in this manner naturally.
*not talking about builds, as if they hav enough defense / health, they can survive somewhat, but more easily dealt with than a gwf.
However add in to that fact, gwf is limited to range except for one skill that can be easily dodged for encounter, an at will which makes them leap like a frog for little damage at you, and a daily they have to charge, which takes them a while to do.
gwf's are very easy for me to kill now, even though i am stil in mid levels with my cw, and will continue to be easy. the other classes also are easy. The only problem as a cw in pvp, is that you are often facing against groups of five, you can rarely control 5 people at once, and you are dependant on your groupmates to help control the outcome / damage / your own dodginess.
That is often why hr's can kill us from ranged, we cant dodge everything, and they are often safe. 1v1 a ranger has to stealth to move in to start, otherwise in most cases a cw will only need land 1 control spell, to perm control the hr to death with them not being able to do anyhthing about it.
especially the paper thin hr's that dont know how to do anything but damage from far away
cw's are literally the best class for pvp in my opinion, but you have to be good, and you have to be able to be fast, otherwise you are only dead.
For comments listed on the other threads.
take for example every class having 10k power, gwf's do the least damage. my level 60 has 6k power, to have 4.5k attack / healing. a tr with 2.6k power has the same atack/healing, and yes same damage per encounters and at wills.
a cw with that.. would hit around 40k.. gwf at 10k would hit around 20k, tr, 35k. cw's actually get the best bonus from it i think, or used to. maybe was toned down a bit, because there was some uber fast lightning speed no at-will users back in the day
compare cw to gwf.
you can actually perm prone a gwf to death with avalanche / ice knife if you are already charged.
gwf has to get into range / keep trying just to hit you with encounters to even prone you, and eh, well?
a cw can avoid easily the encounters of a gwf, and sit there and tank the normal at wills because they can, and blast away for more damage at melee range if they felt like it.
a gwf has no dodge, and in order to do damage, is paper thin himself. its the sentinel that an survive, but doesnt survive that well against a cw tanking their encounter damage.
compare a cw to a tr. Tr can kill you without ever comming out of shadows, with alot of work and hope. however has to on all accounts avoid your aoe's to stay in stealth. by all means cast them. Not only that you also have dodges, you better be moving, because if he cant hit you with shadowtouch, he isnt perma anymore. as a cw you can easily tank the at-wills (unless whisperknife) then you have ot use a potion etc.. all a cw needs is one thing.
to see them 1 time, and the tr is perma-controlled to death, with nothing he can do. just 1 time.
as for pve.. you have seen both good ones and bad ones. the good ones, are in melee range of monsters controlling the pack and damaging them all at once.. spamming their encounters back to back and dailies until they are all dead.
then you have the others that spam four encounters.. if your party is lucky, and they are then using magic missile for 10 seconds.. hitting 1 creature for insignificant damage.
then you get the excuse that 'yeah but this is a pvp build not a pvp build, and really it isnt.. its ust a build thats meant to be slow, deal no damage, not be able to control, and hey if you get hit you die really fast, while the other cw, is capable of winning duels, being a force to win matches, and soloing most of dungeons if he felt like it.
cw's can take 10 elite creatures on at once, perm control the mto death and not get touched.. and if touched, usually survive and outheal with a little bit of lifesteal.
gwf's can only do this if they are sentinal / decked out even offensively with heavy survivability, take much longer to kill them, and get beaten on, and hope they dont get proned / perm proned for them to be able to do so.
you guys are speaking of cw's as if they were weak because they dont have much armor.
great cw's know they are strong, and most often, dont need armor.
really learn the class. stack recovery over 5k. stack your stats with recharge speed. get to over 70% recharge speed, burn your encounters, burn things up. control things to death, and you will kick ***.
otherwise.. your not even a cw.
i know. my gwf is teddy bear, alot of people know me, and i have said skill, and said at will that leaps me as a frog. I mentioned this in another post :P
the range is limited for the gap closer, about dodge range and is low damage. at 6k power and perf vorpal is 4k on a crit to monsters with no armor. even a cw has more resistance than that, and i can tank em if i have to (really i only need 1 hitpoint, the rest are just spare).
the proneis also in a small cone, and straight in front, and easily avoidable due to the fact it, like your other knockdown as animation first before damage/effect, so you can see it comming, and know what to avoid.
most gwf skills have animations that say ok.. dodge now.. before they deal their damage so they are stuck with at-wills to try to bring you down, while you have your own. thats the greatest threat of tr's is because you cant see it happen before it happens.
anyway.
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
I, as mostly a PvPer with PuGs (so I rarely play against good players, which makes playing a CW easier, if the others aren't that good) can not understand how it can be so easy for you. Not that I don't believe you. I just don't know how this should be possible - and I play PvP since launch (not so much in open beta) so have quite a few months experience.
I would like to see your build and gameplay (against good players) as well.
Well it used to be that the meta for CWs was a super-high recovery build, in the 5k-6k range. But then CWs realized, hey, there are these other stats too that seem important, like armor penetration and defense!
I really would like to see your build and gameplay to see how you manage this.
I, as mostly a PvPer with PuGs (so I rarely play against good players, which makes playing a CW easier, if the others aren't that good) can not understand how it can be so easy for you. Not that I don't believe you. I just don't know how this should be possible - and I play PvP since launch (not so much in open beta) so have quite a few months experience.
I would like to see your build and gameplay (against good players) as well.
i am in middle ranks with this cw.. i really miss my old one, but my old one without artifacts, boons etc, only had 4k recovery i think.. and 70% recharge speed almost. I want really to get this higher with my next one.
Here is the thing.. magic missile damage hits one target, and low damage, however if you can chain your encounters, you do much mre damage overall.. is why the super high recovery builds with extremely fast recharge speeds, always outdamage other cw's in delves. Their decent damage aoe's slaughter everything, constantly, and they can even stand in the middle of all of them (avalanche, singularity, steal time, etc) and not be touched, because they are doing this so constantly, that the avalanche and steal time stacks back and forth. for prone / stun affect. In pvp this works also, to an extent. prone doesnt last as long, but you can prone multiple times with one avalche, unless you hit multiple targets. Steal time kinda sucks and i trade it out for others.
say you use avanche, and im not logged in buti think its ice rays that you target one or two things for damage, and if both are on same target, more effective etc? middle path is better for this build for damage, unless you have high crit naturally, as far as feats go. anyway. Entangle, stops them in tracks and raises them. also dot and damage. Avalanche, prone, target first time with ice rays, move avalanche for prone while they are getting up, they still cant unstoppable yet, shoot the ice rays now and then push if you use it, or another dot or something, and start walking backwards. by this time though, they have already lost much of their life, at least half if not more, and you used all your encounters, they dont need much time for cooldown, but a gwf has unstoppable anyway, and they are far from you, and have to sprint, in unstoppable. hehehe
just walk backwards (to note.. i usually send my avalanches towards myself, just in case they get into its range, for the extra unneeded damage, and I get stacks of arcane mastery while walking backwards.. i still havent even dodged yet)
(also to note, i prefer to keep shard of avalanche in mastery slot for this reason, its sooo freakin nice)
after unstoppable and I have dodged what I needed to.. oh.. when a gwf crosses his arm over the other side, thats the signal to dodge, thats the animation of their long range stun (if i remember right, dangit i need to get on my gwf.. and im not logged in lol.. but it has an animation) unstoppable will wear off before he gets into melee range, just sit there, entangle, avalanche, ice ray, move avalanche, ice ray, ice shard by then should be completely charged, and its over. The gwf can use a potion beforehand or otherwise.. but yeah.. if you are using magic missile.. at all, ever against a gwf, you are doing nothing to them really. Its your encounters and critting with them, that give you the higher damage. (ice rays, especially with feat, are ungodly high damage without crit, trust me). I came back just after winter festival. I am setting myself up to get alot of ad per day and thats my focus, but I have one geared char only atm with decently good enchants on him, and thats my gwf teddy bear. After I do him will be the gearing / decking out of my dc, then cw, or maybe cw then dc.. I favor the dc over the cw actually with the build I have in mind (is sick, trust me).
There was another comment made in another post after mine I want to say.. some cw's discovered other stats, like defense.. and armor pen. Well.. this is my thoughts. If I can control you to death and you not touch me, why do I need defence? And for armor penetration.. if I sacrifice recovery for armor pen.. that means I am not chaining my encounters. I am not controlling you to death, ergo, I am casting magic missile for **** damage against you, and trying to dodge everywhere hoping you dont get a lucky hit on me. I would actually do ess damage and controll less, for armor pen. nah.
So yeah, i am building my cw to have around 5k recovery, power, crit, and some lifesteal, with at least one book of the thayan dead for even more action point gain. lifesteal just in case from artifact, and I think is some on the gear I wanted? i forget offhand. oh well.
So now.. what happens if I die? oh yeah, soulforged to buy me more time / potions / artifact main from pvp to give me temp health why not? i have time while controlling. I have dodging, everything else. Meh. Give me my recovery, give me crits, and then give me power, and you will see a beastly cw.
bear in mind also, this is only for the standard gwf i am seeing in pvp, and my gwf, this does not speak against the gwf that uses their dodge ability, and has some recovery, and uses roar and the like to interrupt you and uses other ranged things, this is only against the standard gwf (mostly works because entangle is first skill, you get that off, and your good)
Well gee, I think every CW in the game knows that CWs inflict most of their damage via encounters. But by having a super-high recovery build, due to diminishing returns, you have to sacrifice pretty much everything else.
But hey, good luck.
And CW at-wills do more than just inflict (a small amount of) damage, they also debuff. For Renegade, Magic Missile procs Chaos Magic, and for Thaum, Chilling Cloud procs Frozen Power Transfer. Not to mention building arcane/chill stacks. I'd much rather debuff you/buff myself before hitting you with Icy Rays or Ice Knife. So no, CW's using at-wills in PVP is not a sign of a stupid player. But clearly you already know this. So I don't understand why you have to be so insulting about it.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
bear in mind also, this is only for the standard gwf i am seeing in pvp, and my gwf, this does not speak against the gwf that uses their dodge ability, and has some recovery, and uses roar and the like to interrupt you and uses other ranged things, this is only against the standard gwf (mostly works because entangle is first skill, you get that off, and your good)
Good luck with the high Recovery CW! Watch out for those GWF dodges
the reason i am so insulting about it, is with magic missile you have to stand stil, and you will be in range, which leaves you to needing to dodge / evade while you have cast times that leave you trapped. Go ahead and cast them on me, and see what happens, and also on other gwf's. You do nothing that matters against us but really, just build up our determination, for very little gain overall. and yes magic missile damage is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> compared to your encounters. The debuffs against a gf are worth it for ice rays, because if they are using their shield, it freezes, and then you can be controlled etc, this is only against a gwf, and a skilled gwf, you had better not be standing still as you are, or you wil be killed. if you dont believe me, we can get into a premade match, we can pvp each other 1v1 repeatedly.
you will have some power, and depending on build, can get 100% crit if wanted, and yes, you will have some crit also. Do you make sacrifices yes, of course you do, to get that high because of diminishing returns.
You do still get returns, and those returns matter. significantly.
In the situation I was talking to above, against a gwf, yes, it is a sign of a stupid player if they use magic missile against me / ice rays, because I am going to have every assurance that I am going to be in melee range easily, and they will have to stop casting to dance, and I will get them.
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
I took middle path to the feat that increases Shards and Icy Rays damage when cast on the same target.
ice rays, especially with feat, are ungodly high damage without crit, trust me
Well, I can't trust you on that, because I experience different things.
As I said, I have the feats to increase Icy Rays damage (15% when not affected by Chill and 20% more damage when cast on the same target). Non-crit with ~14% Arp I do maybe up to 4-5k. That's not much (at least not in my book). Even with crit (I don't have Nightmare Wizardry or the follow up feats) I get MAYBE up to 8k. Again, not much against a tanky GWF. And when they deflect (some of) the hits (not just Icy Rays, but Shards as well), you can guess how low the numbers are. So there is nothing like:
by this time though, they have already lost much of their life, at least half if not more
for me.
just walk backwards
How does that help you, if GWFs can have an at-will (!) that closes gaps? Sure it's not as high damage as their encounters, but when they are near, they can land their encounters. And on reaction I can't dodge their knockdown encounters. I see the animation (I know them already), press immediately my Shift, but I still get knocked down. Might be latency, I don't know.
if you are using magic missile.. at all, ever against a gwf, you are doing nothing to them really
It (MM or other at-wills) counters their Temp HP in conjunction with their regeneration a bit. Otherwise you have even a harder time getting them down.
Anyways, your high Recovery build will very well synergize with the Archmage Set. I have it on one of my mages, myself. From your described rotation, Entangling Force and Repel proc the set bonus reducing its cooldowns.
repel pushes themmuch farther than dodge range, which is about the range of that at-will. walking backwards buys you a few seconds without having the need to dodge, saving your dodges for when you need em.
and yeah, 4-5k from one spell on a tanky gwf, is kinda high. however, you chain four spells with damage, one of them hitting a few times (avalanche, its all the damages together that does that).. if all deflected, and you critted on none.. maybe see at least of 10k, which is rather rare.. that would be a pain to see after unstoppable etc heals them a small bit, and their regen yeah, but I do have almost 30% crit, and I will have vorpal, for this build, so meh.
Also, their temp hitponts goes away on their own, without you having to whittle them down, so why bother? just walk backwards.
im on my dc atm now, so cant see archmage set atm, though remember the proc. thinking it had a lower recovery so wasn't interested? I will have to see it again, but right now, getting my dc to 60 through pvp.. with bad pvp groupmates -cries-
Comments
Shard is supposed to be used in the Mastery slot, not like in PvE. Basically Entangle the guy, shard on their head (they're proned), and you get to push shard again to explode it on them. This is a stunlock 20K+ damage from a crit rotation. When proned, people are also defenseless to any other big damage attacks from your teammates, and a good team can chain prones, so CW+GWF/GF are quite awesome.
So you can use both Chill Strike and Shard. If rotation works properly and crits, you will pretty much put squishies directly in SF proc. If Chill Strike/Icy rays are timed correctly, they will hit before the guy on the ground can pop artifact.
Of course, in practice things are not that easy, but with a good team, as meldanen specified, you're pretty much set.
Thanks! I made the op after a few shots of vodka and pvping thinking "dammit" lol. I am really glad I did, I am getting an education
Jugger Conq GF
....
as a rogue, there is just no avoiding getting cc'ed to oblivion when there are 3 wizards on the enemy team. we have a chance if there is just 2 but that depends on the rest of the team to survive.
Hey Meld,
I miss the old school PvP Mindflayer days. Back then when we knew that to mis time a dodge pretty much meant you were copping a Choke and 20k + Icy rays to the face. I still hold you as having some of the best 1v1 Cw duels back in old school Mindflayer pvp.
Desidus
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
But surprisingly DCs are too tanky on these buffs
SENT IV GWF - PVP
My Thaum rotation, after adding some Chill with RoF, is (usually) Icy Rays (to stop them from moving; if you're a Renegade being grabbed, this is the moment for Repel) -> Entangling -> Meatball on the head -> Chill Strike + RoF. Usually, that's enough to procc anyone's SF except Sentinel's. Wait till the SF HP is up, then push the Meatball in. GG.
Alternatively, RoE can be used instead of Chill Strike in a slightly different combo.
Yes. The good old days.
EL-OH-EL tell that to the GFs and TRs in the game who are the last option in making a group even within their own guild
tbh my guild could totally run all cw/gwf but we don't b/c we will run a dungeon fast no matter what comp we run in
people who run those comps are simply slacking on their own dps!
But one thing I never understood is why Chaos Magic is so good. Because I read somewhere any effect of it overwrites the other. So, if you get the 15% debuff and keep attacking with MM, your next MM can already proc another effect and your debuff is gone already. Some info on that would be great.
If you also could post a link to your feats, it would help me even more.
Because not a long time ago I began a PvP CW (Halfling, CON roll, 20 CON at 60, sitting at ~32k HP) and use the "meatball" setup (SoEA in Tab, Icy Rays, RoE or Repel and Entangling Force). Feated I took of course HP and Crit and all AoE feats (in hope it increases SoEA's damage, which I'm actually not convinced of; I even made a thread in the CW forum about this, but nobody could assure me these feats (together with Evocation) properly affect SoEA).
Furthermore I went Thaumaturge through Snap Freeze to get Transcended Master to increase the damage of SoEA and IRs. The points left over I put into Oppressor's Severe Reaction and Brisk Teleport.
But just as you say: When playing against competent players - especially CWs and HRs - most of the time they make my shard disappear via CC.
And either it's latency, or I don't know, but I can't always chain Entangling Force to Shard drop (basic combo). I don't mean the CC-resist-chance kicking in, which drops a person to the ground almost immediately when lifted by EF. I mean the person is actually lifted, I drop the shard, but before it fully appears and drops, the CW dodges away. And since the CW dodge seemingly has an immunity window from start to end, they don't get hit, CC me and I'm in a very bad position to win this fight.
Unfortunately there is no good "power queue" in this game. Because I already hit Tab once to be able to aim the Shard drop asap after EF, so I cast EF and hit Tab again for the Shard drop. But when I hit Tab after EF too fast, when EF's animation isn't completed yet, it counts as not casted, and the Shard drops (-> no proper "power queue"). And without EF the Shard drop rarely hits, of course.
Anyways, because of the Shard disappearing when CC'ed, I thought about going Oppressor than Thaum and pick up to Nightmare Wizardry in Renegade. But since I'm not sure if this more control is worth it with the upcoming Tenacities CC resistance (and also the prone duration shortened, making the Shard setup even less prefereable) , I don't really now what to do yet. Your post gave me an interesting perspective about Renegade.
I wish I could copy a char to preview (website link?!) and find enough other players to play around with some builds.
- you should take cooldwon reductions not AoE feats
- the shard combo is one of the hardest in the game to perform I'd say; I said this many times, as of now, I only know a single CW able to pull it off consistently
- you need to at least try to dodge stuns such as repels chill strikes etc. They are not that hard to deal with, even at my 300 ping. However HR constrict is another completely different issue
- your halfling char with high Con roll is ideal I'd say for PvP; a very good starting point. As you get better enchants, you will be able to have high HP AND high ArP at the same time. This is pretty much a luxury low Con roll chars don't have, but we have higher Int.
- you should consider Elemental Empowerment as well
Basically, given the fact that a few people are able to play shard efficiently, I'll say all that you need is more practice. Keep in mind, some CWs out there are doing it for half a year
Jugger Conq GF
....
No idea who you are talking about, but the idea of using Shard in Tab I actually had myself. I tried it once and saw the potential. Certainly I'm not the first one using it, but I played with it and read afterwards that other people are using it (even though some months ago, when Shard couldn't crit yet, you were called "****" when taking such a "useless" power in Tab).
This specific power Setup (Shard in Tab, IRs, RoE and EF) I got from watching lantis.
The problem is not that I can't time my dodges. Or wait out the HRs vine entanglement 3 times. The problem is if I see an opening window and start with EF, the described problem with the chain arises (Shard not hitting due to whatever, and getting CC'ed afterwards, make it disappear).
Yeah, I'm working on getting decent ArP (together with high HP) - definately not easy with low budget.
I have this feat on my glass cannon CW. Definately helping in damage and I think the DoT can also proc Storm Spell / EoTS.
But as described with my HP CW I don't know which way to go yet.
Anyways, thanks for your input.
Same here, I watched a match of his with Complaints Department months ago
Amazing player!
In an inferior team? In a pug? In 1v2? I've been PvP'ing with and against some of the greatest Meatball CWs so far (Lantiss, Allt, Sobek,…). I've seen them in inferior/even teams. My bottom line: handicap. Put one of them into a 1v2 against GF and GWF… or TR and CW… or TR and GWF… they will drop in under 5 seconds. I don't know who's the godly Meatball CW you're talking about, but once you've mastered the Meatball build and its timings, you can easily apply it to any tactic. It doesn't change the fact that the cooldown on Meatball and Icy Rays is too long. There are almost no dynamics. The difference between "Repel" and "no Repel" is like "2.2k Regen and 40k HP" and "0 Regen and 20k HP". Why even go Halfling and CON when you give up so much survivability by not running Repel? Plus the long cooldown…
It just doesn't make any sense to me. If you got a superior team, Meatball works out. Once the teams are even, Meatball is a handicap (in case the CW in the other team doesn't use it).
For now, I'm quite happy to see there aren't many CWs using shard, and even fewer able to pull it out decently. I can also understand why some people love repels as I played it for quite a few weeks.
To each their own.
I change depending on what/who I am fighting. Most of the time I can get away with Shard, but sometimes when I am getting bee lined by enemies I need repel to get them off me
- JailBreak (in development)
you push recharge speed, get over 5k recovery with it, and you never really have to use an at will.. everything is encounters and dailies. add in a tome artifact, and boom dailies even a bit faster, which is already fast enough.
with one spell. you have the ability to prone a person 3 times.. just one. avalanche of steel in spel mastery slot. drop it on someone, then push it, prones twice, ast another spell, then push it back on top of them while they are still controlled for another prone, etc, and keep moving through spells, and let it explode on top of them. only one class usually survives a heavy fast recovery build like this, with crit/power after, and that is gwf. you have one true class that can survive against a cw in this manner naturally.
*not talking about builds, as if they hav enough defense / health, they can survive somewhat, but more easily dealt with than a gwf.
However add in to that fact, gwf is limited to range except for one skill that can be easily dodged for encounter, an at will which makes them leap like a frog for little damage at you, and a daily they have to charge, which takes them a while to do.
gwf's are very easy for me to kill now, even though i am stil in mid levels with my cw, and will continue to be easy. the other classes also are easy. The only problem as a cw in pvp, is that you are often facing against groups of five, you can rarely control 5 people at once, and you are dependant on your groupmates to help control the outcome / damage / your own dodginess.
That is often why hr's can kill us from ranged, we cant dodge everything, and they are often safe. 1v1 a ranger has to stealth to move in to start, otherwise in most cases a cw will only need land 1 control spell, to perm control the hr to death with them not being able to do anyhthing about it.
especially the paper thin hr's that dont know how to do anything but damage from far away
cw's are literally the best class for pvp in my opinion, but you have to be good, and you have to be able to be fast, otherwise you are only dead.
For comments listed on the other threads.
take for example every class having 10k power, gwf's do the least damage. my level 60 has 6k power, to have 4.5k attack / healing. a tr with 2.6k power has the same atack/healing, and yes same damage per encounters and at wills.
a cw with that.. would hit around 40k.. gwf at 10k would hit around 20k, tr, 35k. cw's actually get the best bonus from it i think, or used to. maybe was toned down a bit, because there was some uber fast lightning speed no at-will users back in the day
compare cw to gwf.
you can actually perm prone a gwf to death with avalanche / ice knife if you are already charged.
gwf has to get into range / keep trying just to hit you with encounters to even prone you, and eh, well?
a cw can avoid easily the encounters of a gwf, and sit there and tank the normal at wills because they can, and blast away for more damage at melee range if they felt like it.
a gwf has no dodge, and in order to do damage, is paper thin himself. its the sentinel that an survive, but doesnt survive that well against a cw tanking their encounter damage.
compare a cw to a tr. Tr can kill you without ever comming out of shadows, with alot of work and hope. however has to on all accounts avoid your aoe's to stay in stealth. by all means cast them. Not only that you also have dodges, you better be moving, because if he cant hit you with shadowtouch, he isnt perma anymore. as a cw you can easily tank the at-wills (unless whisperknife) then you have ot use a potion etc.. all a cw needs is one thing.
to see them 1 time, and the tr is perma-controlled to death, with nothing he can do. just 1 time.
as for pve.. you have seen both good ones and bad ones. the good ones, are in melee range of monsters controlling the pack and damaging them all at once.. spamming their encounters back to back and dailies until they are all dead.
then you have the others that spam four encounters.. if your party is lucky, and they are then using magic missile for 10 seconds.. hitting 1 creature for insignificant damage.
then you get the excuse that 'yeah but this is a pvp build not a pvp build, and really it isnt.. its ust a build thats meant to be slow, deal no damage, not be able to control, and hey if you get hit you die really fast, while the other cw, is capable of winning duels, being a force to win matches, and soloing most of dungeons if he felt like it.
cw's can take 10 elite creatures on at once, perm control the mto death and not get touched.. and if touched, usually survive and outheal with a little bit of lifesteal.
gwf's can only do this if they are sentinal / decked out even offensively with heavy survivability, take much longer to kill them, and get beaten on, and hope they dont get proned / perm proned for them to be able to do so.
you guys are speaking of cw's as if they were weak because they dont have much armor.
great cw's know they are strong, and most often, dont need armor.
really learn the class. stack recovery over 5k. stack your stats with recharge speed. get to over 70% recharge speed, burn your encounters, burn things up. control things to death, and you will kick ***.
otherwise.. your not even a cw.
the range is limited for the gap closer, about dodge range and is low damage. at 6k power and perf vorpal is 4k on a crit to monsters with no armor. even a cw has more resistance than that, and i can tank em if i have to (really i only need 1 hitpoint, the rest are just spare).
the proneis also in a small cone, and straight in front, and easily avoidable due to the fact it, like your other knockdown as animation first before damage/effect, so you can see it comming, and know what to avoid.
most gwf skills have animations that say ok.. dodge now.. before they deal their damage so they are stuck with at-wills to try to bring you down, while you have your own. thats the greatest threat of tr's is because you cant see it happen before it happens.
anyway.
I, as mostly a PvPer with PuGs (so I rarely play against good players, which makes playing a CW easier, if the others aren't that good) can not understand how it can be so easy for you. Not that I don't believe you. I just don't know how this should be possible - and I play PvP since launch (not so much in open beta) so have quite a few months experience.
I would like to see your build and gameplay (against good players) as well.
i am in middle ranks with this cw.. i really miss my old one, but my old one without artifacts, boons etc, only had 4k recovery i think.. and 70% recharge speed almost. I want really to get this higher with my next one.
Here is the thing.. magic missile damage hits one target, and low damage, however if you can chain your encounters, you do much mre damage overall.. is why the super high recovery builds with extremely fast recharge speeds, always outdamage other cw's in delves. Their decent damage aoe's slaughter everything, constantly, and they can even stand in the middle of all of them (avalanche, singularity, steal time, etc) and not be touched, because they are doing this so constantly, that the avalanche and steal time stacks back and forth. for prone / stun affect. In pvp this works also, to an extent. prone doesnt last as long, but you can prone multiple times with one avalche, unless you hit multiple targets. Steal time kinda sucks and i trade it out for others.
say you use avanche, and im not logged in buti think its ice rays that you target one or two things for damage, and if both are on same target, more effective etc? middle path is better for this build for damage, unless you have high crit naturally, as far as feats go. anyway. Entangle, stops them in tracks and raises them. also dot and damage. Avalanche, prone, target first time with ice rays, move avalanche for prone while they are getting up, they still cant unstoppable yet, shoot the ice rays now and then push if you use it, or another dot or something, and start walking backwards. by this time though, they have already lost much of their life, at least half if not more, and you used all your encounters, they dont need much time for cooldown, but a gwf has unstoppable anyway, and they are far from you, and have to sprint, in unstoppable. hehehe
just walk backwards (to note.. i usually send my avalanches towards myself, just in case they get into its range, for the extra unneeded damage, and I get stacks of arcane mastery while walking backwards.. i still havent even dodged yet)
(also to note, i prefer to keep shard of avalanche in mastery slot for this reason, its sooo freakin nice)
after unstoppable and I have dodged what I needed to.. oh.. when a gwf crosses his arm over the other side, thats the signal to dodge, thats the animation of their long range stun (if i remember right, dangit i need to get on my gwf.. and im not logged in lol.. but it has an animation) unstoppable will wear off before he gets into melee range, just sit there, entangle, avalanche, ice ray, move avalanche, ice ray, ice shard by then should be completely charged, and its over. The gwf can use a potion beforehand or otherwise.. but yeah.. if you are using magic missile.. at all, ever against a gwf, you are doing nothing to them really. Its your encounters and critting with them, that give you the higher damage. (ice rays, especially with feat, are ungodly high damage without crit, trust me). I came back just after winter festival. I am setting myself up to get alot of ad per day and thats my focus, but I have one geared char only atm with decently good enchants on him, and thats my gwf teddy bear. After I do him will be the gearing / decking out of my dc, then cw, or maybe cw then dc.. I favor the dc over the cw actually with the build I have in mind (is sick, trust me).
There was another comment made in another post after mine I want to say.. some cw's discovered other stats, like defense.. and armor pen. Well.. this is my thoughts. If I can control you to death and you not touch me, why do I need defence? And for armor penetration.. if I sacrifice recovery for armor pen.. that means I am not chaining my encounters. I am not controlling you to death, ergo, I am casting magic missile for **** damage against you, and trying to dodge everywhere hoping you dont get a lucky hit on me. I would actually do ess damage and controll less, for armor pen. nah.
So yeah, i am building my cw to have around 5k recovery, power, crit, and some lifesteal, with at least one book of the thayan dead for even more action point gain. lifesteal just in case from artifact, and I think is some on the gear I wanted? i forget offhand. oh well.
So now.. what happens if I die? oh yeah, soulforged to buy me more time / potions / artifact main from pvp to give me temp health why not? i have time while controlling. I have dodging, everything else. Meh. Give me my recovery, give me crits, and then give me power, and you will see a beastly cw.
But hey, good luck.
And CW at-wills do more than just inflict (a small amount of) damage, they also debuff. For Renegade, Magic Missile procs Chaos Magic, and for Thaum, Chilling Cloud procs Frozen Power Transfer. Not to mention building arcane/chill stacks. I'd much rather debuff you/buff myself before hitting you with Icy Rays or Ice Knife. So no, CW's using at-wills in PVP is not a sign of a stupid player. But clearly you already know this. So I don't understand why you have to be so insulting about it.
Good luck with the high Recovery CW! Watch out for those GWF dodges
you will have some power, and depending on build, can get 100% crit if wanted, and yes, you will have some crit also. Do you make sacrifices yes, of course you do, to get that high because of diminishing returns.
You do still get returns, and those returns matter. significantly.
In the situation I was talking to above, against a gwf, yes, it is a sign of a stupid player if they use magic missile against me / ice rays, because I am going to have every assurance that I am going to be in melee range easily, and they will have to stop casting to dance, and I will get them.
I took middle path to the feat that increases Shards and Icy Rays damage when cast on the same target. Well, I can't trust you on that, because I experience different things.
As I said, I have the feats to increase Icy Rays damage (15% when not affected by Chill and 20% more damage when cast on the same target). Non-crit with ~14% Arp I do maybe up to 4-5k. That's not much (at least not in my book). Even with crit (I don't have Nightmare Wizardry or the follow up feats) I get MAYBE up to 8k. Again, not much against a tanky GWF. And when they deflect (some of) the hits (not just Icy Rays, but Shards as well), you can guess how low the numbers are. So there is nothing like: for me.
How does that help you, if GWFs can have an at-will (!) that closes gaps? Sure it's not as high damage as their encounters, but when they are near, they can land their encounters. And on reaction I can't dodge their knockdown encounters. I see the animation (I know them already), press immediately my Shift, but I still get knocked down. Might be latency, I don't know.
It (MM or other at-wills) counters their Temp HP in conjunction with their regeneration a bit. Otherwise you have even a harder time getting them down.
Anyways, your high Recovery build will very well synergize with the Archmage Set. I have it on one of my mages, myself. From your described rotation, Entangling Force and Repel proc the set bonus reducing its cooldowns.
and yeah, 4-5k from one spell on a tanky gwf, is kinda high. however, you chain four spells with damage, one of them hitting a few times (avalanche, its all the damages together that does that).. if all deflected, and you critted on none.. maybe see at least of 10k, which is rather rare.. that would be a pain to see after unstoppable etc heals them a small bit, and their regen yeah, but I do have almost 30% crit, and I will have vorpal, for this build, so meh.
Also, their temp hitponts goes away on their own, without you having to whittle them down, so why bother? just walk backwards.
im on my dc atm now, so cant see archmage set atm, though remember the proc. thinking it had a lower recovery so wasn't interested? I will have to see it again, but right now, getting my dc to 60 through pvp.. with bad pvp groupmates -cries-