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CW in pvp
overddrive
Member Posts: 722 Bounty Hunter
I dusted off my cw and pulled out my credit card tonight. I have no desire to grind grind grind so I figured buying some ad, an epic mount and so on would be fun. I jumped into pvp to see if I still liked playing cw. I did. Won a few matches. Lopsided <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> matches. We ended up outside their spawn point destroying them as they jumped down. Terrible I know. Then I lost a few matches. Lopsided <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> matches. They waited at our spawn point and flayed us alive as we jumped down. I put my CC back in my wallet without spending a cent.
I could qq about how squishy cws are in pvp. Yes they are squishy but yes you can also kill pretty much any other character on the map in a few seconds provided you can stay alive long enough to do so. This is normal matches with gs' of anywhere from 10k to 16k. A big variance but often enough the higher gs toons are on your team as well. What made the biggest difference was the team.
A good gwf and almost the entire other team has to focus them which means they are not focusing you which means you have time to kill people. Including enemy gwfs which I found surprisingly easy to kill. Dodge repel entangle freeze enfeeble dead. If they go unstoppable on you alone you just run/dodge away. If they go unstoppable on someone else you can have your way with them. Did I mention to keep dodging? Like no mater what, you do want to always be dodging. Instead of standing there, dodging laterally in a circle around a target. The only real vulnerable time is when you stop to cast. But with a good team, someone has your back.
My point- pvp as a cw is not so hard to win. But it really isn't that fun. It isn't that fun to win lopsided matches and it isnt that fun to lose lopsided matches. I think the cw in pvp is overdependent on their team. A decent team and you can have a massive impact. A poor team and you simply die too much to really be of any use. Much unlike playing tr or gwf. Those classes you really feel like you can drag a team to victory by simply wiping 1 or 2 or more enemies off a nide and capturing it. Or at least contesting it long enough for help to arrive or to die just as your team takes one or two of the other nodes. I imagine dc is something like that. But cw, no way. I am not sure tenacity or healing depression will help this. We'll see.
I could qq about how squishy cws are in pvp. Yes they are squishy but yes you can also kill pretty much any other character on the map in a few seconds provided you can stay alive long enough to do so. This is normal matches with gs' of anywhere from 10k to 16k. A big variance but often enough the higher gs toons are on your team as well. What made the biggest difference was the team.
A good gwf and almost the entire other team has to focus them which means they are not focusing you which means you have time to kill people. Including enemy gwfs which I found surprisingly easy to kill. Dodge repel entangle freeze enfeeble dead. If they go unstoppable on you alone you just run/dodge away. If they go unstoppable on someone else you can have your way with them. Did I mention to keep dodging? Like no mater what, you do want to always be dodging. Instead of standing there, dodging laterally in a circle around a target. The only real vulnerable time is when you stop to cast. But with a good team, someone has your back.
My point- pvp as a cw is not so hard to win. But it really isn't that fun. It isn't that fun to win lopsided matches and it isnt that fun to lose lopsided matches. I think the cw in pvp is overdependent on their team. A decent team and you can have a massive impact. A poor team and you simply die too much to really be of any use. Much unlike playing tr or gwf. Those classes you really feel like you can drag a team to victory by simply wiping 1 or 2 or more enemies off a nide and capturing it. Or at least contesting it long enough for help to arrive or to die just as your team takes one or two of the other nodes. I imagine dc is something like that. But cw, no way. I am not sure tenacity or healing depression will help this. We'll see.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid
Jugger Conq GF
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Jugger Conq GF
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Post edited by overddrive on
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- being CONTINUALLY focused down by 2-3-4 enemies
- being obliterated twice as fast as any other class
- being the guy that dies most in almost all balanced matches against teams with a brain
... when you can play a class that:
- doesn't die almost at all
- hits hardest in the game
- closes gaps like there's no tomorrow, smashes squishies over the head for 17K
- has 2 prone encounters, prone daily (GG Crypic, GG...)
- has large AoE, hard hitting prone (lulz)
- goes immune after taking some damage
- deals the most damage in PvP
- can sprint away while immune when things go downhill, regen/pot and return
or even:
- invisible class for 80% of the time
- immune for the 19% of the time
- great point holder
- great executioner of squish
- attacks while invisible
Honorable mention: good HRs and tank DCs.
So, why would I roll a CW for PvP?
The most "accurate" pvp class I guess.
WTB Class Reroll please
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
You have to think about it this way CWs are completely broken OP in PVE.. i think because of this people expect them to be the same in pvp... You cant have both. IF CWs were OP in both pvp and pve then why bother having any other class in the game.. right now they are miles ahead in pve and maybe suffer a little in pvp... You cant have it all......
Partially this, but another reason why CWs are focused so hard is that they can do a lot of damage if left unchecked. Consequently CWs benefit more than most other classes from being in a (decent) premade.
Errm... don't you have one of those amazingly geared GWFs that can outdps in PvE like 98% or something of CW population? I'd say they're almost as OP in PvE like CWs.
(which is fine by me, by the way, GWF should be pushing HUGE DPS - if specced for it)
Also, I don't expect CWs to be OP in PvP. Just as I don't expect senti IV GWFs or permastealths to be OP in PvP
I am 100% that all what CWs desire for PvP is a bit more CC, a bit more survivability.
How much?
Well, to the point where "OMG focus the CW!!!!" is no longer the best strat. Where people are in doubt: "Should we focus this CW? Hmm he seems pretty hard to kill, how about that HR or DC first?"
Yes I play one of those GWFs... but playing at the top end of PVE.. its more obvious that CW is still miles ahead.. heck the top CWs I come across can still top my dps by like 20% which is huge.. and they are doing this dps while using CC.. whereas a GWF only provides dps nothing more.. So CWs are still miles ahead in regards to pve.. yes I think GWFs are probably 2nd but there is a significant gap between 1st and 2nd here.. Next are sentinel gwfs a bit too good for pvp? sure...I agree.. but remember the best builds for pve and very different to the best builds for pvp in regards to GWFs. my destroyer GWF is very good for pve but very meh for pvp. and changes for pvp gwfs can not affect the pve builds of the class will be screwed again. Same goes with Cws.. you ask for more cc and defense.. I don't see how that is possible without buffing them for pve in some form.. and that can not happen at all.
CWs are far more over-powerd in PvE than GWFs - otherwise /ZONE and guild runs wouldn't be all about stacking CWs.....
And in almost every PvP game, (decent) players SHOULD be focusing the CW as targeting the squishies to turn a fight into a 4v5 ASAP is absolutely Class 101 PvP techniques.
Still, I don't think anyone will begrudge CWs some PvP buffs so long as there are the corresponding debuffs in PvE.
Any other class can be very good in pve ánd pvp at the same time. Now even my cw which is 100% pve can kill vanguards quite easily, with vanguard sentinals it's a bit harder but still very possible when they don't have a really high gear score. When they do, I don't cry about them being OP for killing my 100% pve CW with a 100% pvp GWF.
Most cw's just aren't using the right skills, mostly using just 1 setup to kill every different class. Or aren't using a good feat setup for pvp. If you would use a 100% pvp CW (high hp/regen/defense/deflect/lifesteal?) you may still have a very hard time killing a gwf, but the gwf will have a very hard time killing you, if he can at all.
Against any other class you can win easily with your pve CW.. I even prefer my cw over my gwf when it comes to defending a DC.
My point; cw isn't broken or bad in pvp, you just need to know how to play them, and don't expect to win with a pve setup against a pvp setup.
Shoo man, leave CWs alone :P We need CW spell: "Camouflage: makes you and your spells look like GWF ones". Anyway good to have you on my side for most matches hehe.
Really? There are quite a few premade videos around from top teams, you should hear the best CWs in the game screaming for help when the GWF appears
There are less than 20 CWs able to do this, in the entire game
This discussion is all about PvP.
You don't balance PvP with PvE. You don't make class bad in PvP cause it's good in PvE as a punishment
This right here... I play every class... with 2 TRs (one perma, one inyourMFing face), 2 CWs (fire, lightning) and I will tell you this.
None of my toons are built expressly for PVP... so yep my GWF is not sentinel, my GF is conqueror, my HR is combat and not an archer, my DC is heal-bot. I do equally well with all of them, even against mid-level pre-mades (7-8s with Perfects). I can tell you a good CW on a good team DEFINITELY BENEFITS from a good team like no other class I play.
Sure I can consistently get more kills with my IYMFF TR (not the perma) of GF... but if my team is SEMI decent... I can downright get abusive with my CW... and I don't even have Vorpal on him. If they suck... well I spend 99% of the time tanking sentinels and then getting double and triple teamed... which is why I created the fire mage... DOT, run, push , double or triple teamed, smolder *****es, kill your friend!
let's keep the personal attacks out of the forums, please. attacking another person or their opinion is not allowed per forum rule 1.01. i'd also like to remind you that accusing someone of trolling is considered trolling.
thank you.
do not reply or reference this note as doing so is a violation of forum rules section V. instead, send us a PM if you'd like to discuss it.
let me tell you what's the difference between us, and why I have lost only 1 pug match in the last ~50 pug matches.
Let me say it upfront: I love the CW! And I think this is by far the most fun class to play. So, how did I make it from zero to the point where I enjoy PvP nowadays?
Anyone can be focused in PvP. CWs usually get focused first (by smart players). I don't like it, but we have to deal with the fact that being tanky in PvP is important. I was a glass cannon Renegade for a long time, but later decided to give up about 15 % of my damage for A LOT of tankiness (HP + Regeneration).
Rule number 1: Be tanky.
So, is that it? Being tanky? My first build in this game was the Meatball CW build most CWs are running nowadays. It can generate some great burst if:
- the Meatball doesn't get cancelled by another CW (Repel, Entangling Force, Chill Strike), HR (basically every encounter), TR (Impact Shot)… I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff.
- you get a full rotation in, without being proned, pushed, whatever.
- the other NECESSARY encounters are available/off cooldown (Icy Rays).
Now, keep in mind that Meatball and Icy Rays have the highest cooldowns of all (useful) CW encounters.
I discovered the Meatball build due to testing. It just made sense. And when there were no Artifacts, Boons, the good ol' Tenes still worked as not intended, and the highest GS possible for a CW was somewhere around 12k, a Tenebrous Meatball CW was by far the best build. Also, the additional CC from the Meatball that can affect multiple targets is worth mentioning. But everything changed with Module 1. Due to the new Boons and more affordable Perfect Vorpals, Renegade builds started dealing higher burst damage than Tene CWs (anything but Meatball or Icy Rays ofc, due to Thaum feats!). Now that most of the damage came from crits, Renegades could use ANY encounter and still deal decent damage. And that's where the key to tankiness comes in: Repel.
Repel not only adds 1 stack of HV, it also has one of the lowest cooldowns and easily makes it possible for you to fight multiple targets. I'm not even gonna start to talk about all the tactical advantages when it comes to capping in PvP.
Repel is CW's tankiness! Without Repel, the CW becomes what you described: squishy and overdependent on his team. If you have an awesome team that roflstomps your enemy and communicates well, you MAY land a full Meatball Thaum rotation on someone while he's being kept busy by another party member (and ofc no one is touching you, because they're already dead, because your team roflstomped them). I have yet to see a Meatball CW survive at least 10 sec against two equally geared players. It just doesn't happen.
Rule number 2: Choose a practical build.
Theory is great, but when it comes to a PvP challenge, it is important to tune your playstyle.
What is important for me? Low cooldowns! And no, higher Recovery doesn't make a big difference. Armpen and Regen/HP is much more important.
It's about dynamics and personal skills. But yes… the damage.
Rotation of death: RoE (on TAB) -> Repel (HV stack) -> RoE -> Entangling Force (HV stack) -> (for Sentinels, here: Ice Knife) -> Chill Strike (last HV stack included) … somewhere along the way Nightmare Wizardry (Combat Advantage, +15 % Crit Severity) and Eye of the Storm procced. If not, don't use Ice Knife (happens rarely).
My setup: RoE on TAB (amazing damage due to Masterful Arcane Theft and Arcane Stacks), Chill Strike (Snap Freeze
Ah, and did I mention? My Magic Missiles are deadly. They can not only add 15 % Mitigation to all enemies around your target, on Eye of the Storm, one MM rotation, given the Arcane Stacks, can easily hurt any equally geared player (except Sentinel) for over 50 % of his max. HP.
Yes, again, all theory. But in this case, practically much easier to apply. More dynamics. No casting cancellations that lead to cooldown! Repel (-> Survivability). Much lower cooldowns. Marginally less damage than Thaum in theory, significantly more damage in practice.
I play CW since beta and went through all the changes. Apparently, only Mindflayer went through the Renegade phase. With the merge, Dragon brought the Meatball fetish to the post-merge server. From my point of view, Meatball builds lead to the problems you mentioned: It can only be applied in a clearly superior team. Once the gear and communication are even (or even worse in the CW's team), the Meatball CW becomes a huge handicap. I played the Meatball Thaum again for a week about 4 weeks ago: it's terrible. It makes me sad how much potential good players give up by going for that extremely unpractical build.
Rule number 3: Know your dodges (and Repels)!
Know what to dodge and what not to dodge:
Dodge the Chill Strike, don't dodge Magic Missiles. Dodge Flurry, don't dodge the second Impact Shot. Know your dodge timing on Constricting Arrow.
Repel once you hear the Meatball sound, don't Repel GWFs in Unstoppable (unless you need it only for the stack).
Practice, practice, practice, practice! Know your rotations for 1v1, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 1v5. It's better to take a Chill Strike to the face than to get hit by a Frontline. In certain enemy comps (3 tanky classes), it makes more sense to run Repel on TAB.
My pug strategy (that makes almost all pugging premades leave the match early): I go straight to the enemy base, almost always 2 or more are gonna follow me there. Most of the times it's 3 or 4. I just tank, repel around (entangle one guy, dodge, repel the other, dodge, chill strike 3rd, dodge, Repel is off cooldown again… etc.). My pugs cap 1 and 2. I either die on 3 or not. Either way, the match is won.
The last pug I remember when I lost, was when I ran into a Nightmare Inc. premade and one pug, at 100:100 score, went "**** this. Match takes too long. Bye!"
So, why would I roll a CW for PvP?
- As to damage, definitely close to GWFs (not survivability, but you're not supposed to be fighting them melee! only if it's necessary). I have yet to meet a Thaum that does more damage in a premade match than I (including lost matches, >500 points).
- Ability to dodge and Repel for survivability.
- Range!
- Extreme debuff for assistance (double RoE, debuffing MM).
Well… my 2 cents.
Meld
P.S.: Stox, go easy on me. xD
Yep, I hate it when I 1v1 another CW and we exchange MM from a distance and he wins.
Great stuff Meld
I played Renegade myself for months. I used repels and RoE on tab when they fixed it. etc etc. etc.
Shard CW is not easy to play. It has advantages, and disadvantages. As I mentioned, it is a high-risk, high-reward, high-skill playstyle. I don't think many CWs play it though, and I only know 4-5 that use it good, and only one that use it like a pro.
So what's to do?
As you said - practice more, get better at combos, learn to dodge the stuns that put the shard on cooldown etc.
Because, in my humble opinion, making your team miss 2 potential prones is not good.
I do admit however you are highly annoying when you're around me with that repel
PS: stox your turn to make the case for shard now
But if there's one thing I can tell you, it's that I'm still learning with every single match. You can never be good enough as a Renegade. Of course, same goes for Thaums.
High-risk, high-skill - yes. High-reward? Eeeeehhhh…
All the best Renegades I ever knew are banned. Ya… Renegades are kinda badasses. :cool:
TR is most nerfed class since realase so dunno what love you talking about...also with new pvp patch comes another nerf, after DF, SE, LB, CoS and Lurker they gonna nerf Impact Shot now
It is really helpful to be get such insights into how a skilled CW player can contribute to their team in PvP.
Traditionally, Wizards (damage or CC) have always been the glass cannon types. I truly wish Cryptic would give CWs something besides Shield as means for protection, however. Stoneskin/Ironskin are classic choices. I'm excited to see Mirror Images in the Dread Ring, and hope they'll be coming soon to CWs or another caster class.
I still love playing mine. I love pairing with an HR (or another CW) and moving as a pair. Some seriously, stupid damage that way.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Jugger Conq GF
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By that same token, I love it when someone thinks they are facing off with me 1:1 and they get a shiv in their back from my friendly neighborhood TR.
You wouldn't unless you had a really good premade already wanting a(nother?) cw. Then you would want to play other premades because always winning is no more fun than always losing. At last not for me. And ya, after playing gwf and tr I find myself hitting tab rapidly by habit and oh, its just a really good offensive spell that doesn't help me survive even another second. No panic button on a class that needs it the most. CW is A LOT like a more damaging version of TR minus the stealth. Lets take unstoppable off of GWF's and give it to CW's "haha j/k". Or make a cws version of unstoppable "astral visage" or whatever- you heal a fraction of total hp, get a ton of temp hp, you become cc immune and your dr goes through the roof. Because you are astral, or something.
Jugger Conq GF
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I leveled a cw months ago to 60 as a pve toon that flirted with pvp. I started a guild with it, grew the guild with the help of some rank 6 guildies and it ultimately became more of a pve guild. I rolled a gwf, played pvp. Played pvp some more. Joined a pvp guild with the gwf. The cw went on the shelf and the rank 6 guildies were made rank 7 and I retired from that pretty much.
The pvp guild lacks cw's. They are there but not enough to have 1 in every premade we run. That ends up hurting a lot vs the better guild premades which made me conclude that all gwf/tr teams all the time are not the best option so that while these classes are close/short range OP they alone do not the best overall pvp team make.
So I dusted off my cw, re-specced it for pvp, started to regear it for pvp, got to 12k before I decided last night to take it for an extended run to see if I really wanted to invest in this character. Then starts my original post.
So I am talking about a pvp geared and specced cw. Unless you have support from your team you are screwed vs any other competent team. By support I mean when you pause to cast you are not instantly set upon by a well geared tr/gwf using their most damaging abilities. And if you are that enemy is locked down/kited by a team mate long enough for you to survive.
BTW last night was all pug runs. I won't even think about putting that cw into the pvp guild until it is at least 14k and I have a few dozen matches under my belt as a cw. Then I expect to win 90 out of 100 matches in a lopsided fashion. But like I said, that is not ok. It is not that fun to either alays win or always lose with few close challenging matches in between.
Jugger Conq GF
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lol and that is why I love playing my TR. It is so shady and cheesy and yet so fun.
Jugger Conq GF
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Great stuff and thank you for posting it! I am admittedly a cw nub in pvp. I am used to playing gwf and tr and it takes a little time to adjust from cw pve/tr pvp/gwf pvp to cw pvp. I used about the same rotation you mention but had meatball in place of chill strike. The Meatball seems almost too good to be true until you try using it against good teams. In pugs it can be silly how much damage can be done how many enemies can be knocked down all with one spell. But that spell is almost more like a daily due to the long cd. I will try chill strike in its place. Yes easy kills, I need practice. My rotation was entangle, ray of frost, roe, and repel as a finisher if absolutely necessary. If I could complete that rotation pretty much anything is dead. Defensively, repel first and the same basic rotation afterwards. Shard I have slotted as a kind of land mine/bowling ball. It seems to clear/protect nodes pretty well for a few seconds which is often long enough for team mates to make a difference. Defensively, putting a meatball nearby and timing ones dodges to end right next to the meatball "shes ready to blow!" when facing bad odds seems to help because if they chase you right to the shard as it explodes they take a lot of damage and are (usually) proned long enough for me to get another cast off. A gwf catching you while in unstoppable as you get a shard off nearby will chase your around until unstoppable wears off right next to the shard as it explodes, proning the gwf and letting u have your way with it. Well like I said, I am still a nub cw in pvp :P
Jugger Conq GF
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