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Balancing and general tweaks to improve gameplay.

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    mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Thanks so much for posting this! I'll read over this thread and forward anything that we may be able to action on onto our devs.

    Nice to see a Dev post, thanks! :):):)

    I personally feel that this post
    I'd add (at least) 2 more things that might love some improvement:

    1) Refinement Grinding: It spent hours feeding my R1-4 into various enchantments/artifacts. This might go much faster by just dumping a full stack into the target enchantment/artifact, not only 5 at a time, and then have to wait 2s for it to resolve. I am not complaining about costs/coal wards/potency stuff. All fine. But the useless, stupid grind (drag/drop/wait/repeat) that gives me pain in my fingers.

    2) transfer between characters: I also spend a lot of time mailing items forth and from on my toons, be it on 1 account or more accounts. As there was no way to transfer e.g. gold from toon A to toon D I made a second account, rather than buy another account upgrade. Everything about this mail transfer or having to use my wife's PC in another room to use my 2nd account is just TEDIOUS and not improving my gaming experience at all. Not at all.

    describes the least controversial and universally beneficial ideas in the thread. There are other good ideas of course, but they may require a lot more consideration of possible class balancing knock-on effects.
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    ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 996 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    pers3phone wrote: »
    The game would need a complete revamp of player HP/defenses and mob abilities/HP pool to accommodate this slight change of having just 2 more encounter slots available.

    Well, it's not 100% true. You could work around the recharge timers, and make it that any power in excess of 3 adds an extra 33% recharge time to all powers. So if you choose to slot only 3 and leave the others blank, you will play the same as today. If you want to slot all 6, your recharge speed will be halved, thus on average you will mantain the same rate (i.e. if in 1 minute you could use 10 encounter powers, on average you will still use 10 encounters per minute).

    The grand average of your encounter skills damage wouldn't change by much. Other things would need to be tweaked (i.e. action point gain), but you wouldn't need to rebalance everything (damage, hp, resistances etc).
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    rewws85rewws85 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    First I'd like to thank people that are posting additional or constructive and on-topic comments to forward and help this thread, and to you who only post here to single out meanings that don't makes sense to you because you've had a different experience a few times doesn't need to be said, everyone knows and I've tried to include that sometimes this and that works and you find competent people and if all stars align the skill or that "thing" is useful. But isolated incidents and putting different words on the "I just think you suck" comments are not productive for this thread at all.
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    krimbarbarrojakrimbarbarroja Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Oh god this is why NV is so terribly unbalanced. DEVs are terribly uninformed.



    It's called swapping out powers, at a campfire or otherwise. The powers are enough as it is to run every dungeon.

    While I agree with the whole idea that the # of powers needs to be kept low in order for it to be a tactical decision, you will have to admit that swapping powers is extremely clunky at the moment.
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    ianthewizard2012ianthewizard2012 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,142 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    While I agree with the whole idea that the # of powers needs to be kept low in order for it to be a tactical decision, you will have to admit that swapping powers is extremely clunky at the moment.
    I have to respectfully disagree with the statement about tactical decision. This is a D&D role-playing game, not a tactic game. The deficient in power slots can only be an inconvenience, it never makes gameplay more enjoyable.
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    nameexpirednameexpired Member Posts: 1,282 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    One more thing:
    What about a "refinement point disintegrator" functionality for enchantments?

    When upgrading enchantments I usually end up with 1 to 100 excess RP.
    These enchantments, which I would like to stack, I can not stack due to some critical refining happening on the last refining that goes above the RP necessary.
    The "refinement point disintegrator" would set the RP to zero, allowing me to stack said enchantments again.
    I don't want to "un-refine" them, no pay back, just a possibility to delete these very little annoying points above 0.

    I know that inventory space is precious (and a source of income for the game developers), but I already have all 5 bags. With all the sets I need to carry around, skill kits, 1 full bag for enchantments (as I don't tend to start refining every time I find a enchantment), ...
    Ease my burden! At least the size of it ;)
    Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
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    pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Well, it's not 100% true. You could work around the recharge timers, and make it that any power in excess of 3 adds an extra 33% recharge time to all powers. So if you choose to slot only 3 and leave the others blank, you will play the same as today. If you want to slot all 6, your recharge speed will be halved, thus on average you will mantain the same rate (i.e. if in 1 minute you could use 10 encounter powers, on average you will still use 10 encounters per minute).

    The grand average of your encounter skills damage wouldn't change by much. Other things would need to be tweaked (i.e. action point gain), but you wouldn't need to rebalance everything (damage, hp, resistances etc).

    You really want to endure a 6-spell combo from a CW in PvP? Like waiting for all CDs to be ready, then CoI+RoE debuffing, IR to stick you on place, EF to choke you nicely and shard on your head, followed by a chill strike as you are still prone?

    You realize that I will proc EotS 99% on CoI or RoE guaranteeing all other subsequent nukes to crit on you?

    If you survive, I'll freeze ray kite you until my cooldowns are back again or hide/run among team members.

    Sure, gimme that, why not.
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    silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If you just join a premade pug, most of the time it goes pretty well, like 95% of the time you get the job done and everyone rolls greed ect.

    In terms of the OP comments, I can really only talk about the DC, DCs are fine for most PVE content in game, I have no real issues healing most poeple, the game isnt set up for massive direct heals (divine HW is the closest, but its pretty much wasted slot , you can add more by dumping divine glow for buffs in a Melee centric group, or roll a DPS slot for more damage during all the trash runs) Some people use it as a AP gain, if your slotting holy fevor and have feats , buffs active, Ive found no need for that.

    In pvp, they are nerfhammering the DC into the ground, whatever you maybe doing with that DC in pvp world right now, it will change apparently, what they will be good for after that I have no ideal, either people heal/dps or tank nodes right now, depending on what they want to do, after patch, it appears DCs will not be able to hold nodes anymore, or really heal well, that leaves you as a buff/debuff hybrid DPS slot, which will be squishy apparently. Right now most DCs can handle burst damage(with players in general same gear score range) , we are just CC'd to death, post patch it appears we will be both CC'd down and Bursted down, so they will be pretty much useless.

    My biggest issues with game currently:

    1. Cost of C Wards.. what a money grab.
    2. YOU have to pay for a respec token! Ive never played a game that made it hard to respec, sure you can move to test server, but lets say you want to run different specs for different reasons, its not really feasible.

    The moderate issues I have in game:
    1. PVP world really unbalanced, mostly due to forced arena matching Im just a medium gear scored cleric (13.1-13.6 depending on what im slotting) with probably avg DC skills, I either find have a good team pug around me and we do ok, or I have a really REALLY bad one with people in the 6k gear score range. Its neither fun to really roll a group or be rolled. Most other games have both arena matches and open world, open world would balance things considerably, with lower gear score players being able to hide some being supported by more people.
    2. Gear Score Range for dungeons, they need to up these for some Lair is considerbly harder becuase people in green/blues with just above gear score enter and get one shotted down at final fight, That one and the t2s should say 10k gear score minimum, that will eleminate some confusion in game.
    3. Game balance in PVE is mostly ok, CWs are the uber slot in pve and GWF in PVP.. well one class has to be, I blame more dungeon design content the class design, they could tweak dungeons to have more elites less adds, this would allow more people to roll with a GF/DC/TR/HRs then they have now, right now 2-3 cws a GWF and maybe a token DC (who could be replaced, especially if that dc isnt a buff/debuff high prophet/plaguefire build) Right now any of the T2s are do-able with any combo really, just way easier with the CWs in place. In places with super amount of adds like first fight in Pirate King , having 3 cws make it a cake walk..

    The small issues I have with the game:
    1. Cosmetic gear, or lack therof, probably the smallest allowable cosmetic changes allowed in any modern mmo Ive played, the few they have cost loads of money to get.
    2. Enchant system seems really expensive to use and too many enchant slots vs other games Ive played (usually seen on like main hand weapon and main armour slot or something)
    3. Ninja looting and or/kicking team members before final fight or right after.. what a pita, shouldnt ever happen, loot rolling system needs major tweaking to prevent this sort of stuff.

    What I like about neverwinter:
    1. Its very fast to enter design content, Ive played other mmos where you have to physically go some place that may take a hour to get there (ya Im not kidding)
    2. Mostly everything is achievable for free, other then some of the enchants, advanced pets , mounts or bags, you can live without some of those, I dont mind throwing out some money in game, the only two I have issues with is coast of cwards (it should be like 2.99 dollars per c ward.. they would make more money imo not less, paying 10 bucks for one is ridicoulous.) and cost to respec, that should be free.


    Overall I find neverwinter to be a average type of MMO with loads of issues like any other, its design content is pretty shallow however and unless you just want to run dailies and t2s there is basically no storyline from cryptic in game that is worth bothering with, some of the foundry runs are fun, but some are way to long to bother with for some small amount of AD and a green item (heck a guaranted 2 r4 enchants would be at least something usable).
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    morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    One more thing:
    What about a "refinement point disintegrator" functionality for enchantments?

    When upgrading enchantments I usually end up with 1 to 100 excess RP.
    These enchantments, which I would like to stack, I can not stack due to some critical refining happening on the last refining that goes above the RP necessary.

    Just want to check (in case I'm missing something): why are you sequentially upgrading enchants? You should never really need to stack anything except raw, unrefined loot drop enchants.

    If I have a r6 dark in my boots, then every time I pick up a dark (be it r1, 2, 3 or 4) I just dump it into the r6 the boots. You never need to turn thr r1s into r2s and then r3s and so on, and it's actually costing you points (and marks) to do it that way.
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    nameexpirednameexpired Member Posts: 1,282 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    morsitans wrote: »
    Just want to check (in case I'm missing something): why are you sequentially upgrading enchants? You should never really need to stack anything except raw, unrefined loot drop enchants.

    If I have a r6 dark in my boots, then every time I pick up a dark (be it r1, 2, 3 or 4) I just dump it into the r6 the boots. You never need to turn thr r1s into r2s and then r3s and so on, and it's actually costing you points (and marks) to do it that way.
    First of all, I think it nice that I can upgrade an enchantment that is slotted is nice, but the way to get to the interaction menu is tedious as you have to go through many menus.
    Second, if I play with my main I tend to make multiple R5s, for example, to sell in the AH or keep for alternative gear, especially R5 darks I always slot in the utility slot, so I like to stack them up a lot.
    But you are right, there might not be a need for my use case if putting RP on an enchant would be a lot faster and easier.
    Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
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    morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    Fair enough. I did wonder if "selling them" was the idea, but thought I'd check just in case I could save you some time, marks and RP. :)
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    w00trandomsnoobiw00trandomsnoobi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 387 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    One more thing:
    What about a "refinement point disintegrator" functionality for enchantments?

    When upgrading enchantments I usually end up with 1 to 100 excess RP.
    These enchantments, which I would like to stack, I can not stack due to some critical refining happening on the last refining that goes above the RP necessary.
    The "refinement point disintegrator" would set the RP to zero, allowing me to stack said enchantments again.
    I don't want to "un-refine" them, no pay back, just a possibility to delete these very little annoying points above 0.
    Yes, please. This drives me crazy, I always pray that it doesn't crit and of course it mostly does. I thought that at least the enchantments that have the same number of excess points would stack, but they don't.
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    lucifron44lucifron44 Member Posts: 417 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    rewws85 wrote: »
    First off gearscore: For all the dungeons on Epic difficulty the recommended gearscore only applies for a handful of boss fights and in some dungeons the endboss or certain bosses is completely ridiculous considering the amount of damage dealt, amount of adds, amount of healing you can provide in a party (INCLUDING POTIONS and health stones).

    The required GS to enter a dungeon is just that - a prerequisite. Not a recommended GS. Like, for GG you have to be in a guild.
    A useful feature though, would be something like in the Foundries, where before running one you can see the number of players who completed it and the average time that they needed. A feature which, before you enter, say, Epic Karrundax, you can see the number of ppl who completed it and their average GS.
    Russian leaderboard first page. The proof.
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    beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I have to respectfully disagree with the statement about tactical decision. This is a D&D role-playing game, not a tactic game. The deficient in power slots can only be an inconvenience, it never makes gameplay more enjoyable.

    It's an action combat game with a D&D-based setting, which happens to allow some facility for roleplaying within the game world.

    It's an RPG in the respect that games like the Diablo series are RPGs, that you create a character, pick a class, and assign points when you level up. It doesn't particularly involve roleplaying as a default feature, because everything is on rails.

    Roleplay figures into Neverwinter because players can imagine motivations that take them beyond the rails, and they can interact with other players creatively. People can use it as a sandbox for roleplaying if they want, but you can play Neverwinter without roleplaying for one second.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
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    katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Limiting the number of powers you can use at any time does not make the game more tactical. In fact, it does the exact opposite, considering that most people use the same few powers that are worth using, and aren't extremely situational.
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    morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    Depends on class: DCs have to chop and change quite a lot based on party composition, gearing and skill level, and situation. GFs can tailor themselves to the party & situation too (when they find a party :P). There are plenty of places where the generic CW COI/Shard combo doesn't really work, and so on.

    Working out what the best blend of skills to bring to a fight is very tactical. Some skills being obvious trash doesn't change this: they'd be obvious trash even if you could equip 10 encounters at a time.
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    katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Except that's wrong. Most powers do more than just plain damage, if you could have 10 available at any time they wouldn't all have to be equally powerful. But they aren't balanced, AND you can only have 3 selected, and that effectively eliminates 80% of powers from use.
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    morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    80%? Really? I've had a look through the DC powers and I'd say I use 19 of the 27 powers available. For GFs it's about 21. 21 for CW, too.

    So on average it's more like 30%. Still not great, but there's a lot of use for all those. Plus limiting the number forces you to focus on synergies more. You can't necessarily have your cake AND eat it.
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    trippysmurf1trippysmurf1 Member Posts: 188 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2014
    stoxforum1 wrote: »
    All I want for Christmas is to be able to put a stack of 99 into each of those 5 slots. Upgrading artifacts is a real pain 5 items at a time...

    posted in another thread on 12/14. They didn't listen then, it's doubtful they will listen now.
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    rewws85rewws85 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Two things I'd like to add to this thread, some guy mentioned something about a refinement point desintegrator or something like that, so here's a thought , what if people can throw STACKS of all types of stones enchants etc of any rank into a "disintegrator" and gain the refinement points in one pool but for instance at 75% of total points worth, and you can select to draw points from the pool for upgrades and a slidebar to set how much you want to use for the upgrade and the excessive points (if any) remain in the pool. Also in addition to this please reduce the 10 diffrerent levels of 50 different gems and stones, it's impossible to keep track of all of it and it's taking up ridiculous amounts of space, that mixed with the only way for getting more bankspace is through buying Zen I believe is frustrating to more then just me. I find myself with only greater bags of holding and a maxed out bank space and still need to discard stuff from time to time to have room for it all, divide it into less groups like minor-moderate-greater-perfect that's MORE then enough, even then some enchants are quite similar and it's really not neccessary to have so many similar with different names and even more ranks.

    Second thing I'd like to add is that players have to buy Zen to change specs is undermining the gameplay itself, I think many of those that have terrible, ridiculous and useless powers and feats to suit their roles in a dungeon is because they do some pvp, and recently leveled up or similar things and it's obvious that this requires different abilities and skill focus. This could remove the dps clerics and tank issues, or atleast lower them.
    Also I think you'd benefit from adding some sort of hand-holding tutorial with basic tips and hints and information about what people expect from the class and primary task of the class in groups, people that are new to gaming have absolutely no idea, and don't know automatically what pays off to stack as stats, or abilities or how and when to use them. This should however ONLY be optional, and skippable, and parted into different styles for each class. It may require some work but I think it will work wonders if people get information on where to see and use these tutorials / trials, perhaps even throw in a minor reward or achievement to further motivate people to try it.

    By the way you I don't think you should make people pay for character slots, you should want them to make as many as they possibly can so they feel the urge to play more, experiment more, spend more time and find their favorite class have more to gear more to spend time and money and grinding on, it's a win win and it heightens the amount of people available and broadens peoples knowledge of/in the game.
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    rewws85 wrote: »
    Two things I'd like to add to this thread, some guy mentioned something about a refinement point desintegrator or something like that, so here's a thought , what if people can throw STACKS of all types of stones enchants etc of any rank into a "disintegrator" and gain the refinement points in one pool but for instance at 75% of total points worth, and you can select to draw points from the pool for upgrades and a slidebar to set how much you want to use for the upgrade and the excessive points (if any) remain in the pool. Also in addition to this please reduce the 10 diffrerent levels of 50 different gems and stones, it's impossible to keep track of all of it and it's taking up ridiculous amounts of space, that mixed with the only way for getting more bankspace is through buying Zen I believe is frustrating to more then just me. I find myself with only greater bags of holding and a maxed out bank space and still need to discard stuff from time to time to have room for it all, divide it into less groups like minor-moderate-greater-perfect that's MORE then enough, even then some enchants are quite similar and it's really not neccessary to have so many similar with different names and even more ranks.

    Second thing I'd like to add is that players have to buy Zen to change specs is undermining the gameplay itself, I think many of those that have terrible, ridiculous and useless powers and feats to suit their roles in a dungeon is because they do some pvp, and recently leveled up or similar things and it's obvious that this requires different abilities and skill focus. This could remove the dps clerics and tank issues, or atleast lower them.
    Also I think you'd benefit from adding some sort of hand-holding tutorial with basic tips and hints and information about what people expect from the class and primary task of the class in groups, people that are new to gaming have absolutely no idea, and don't know automatically what pays off to stack as stats, or abilities or how and when to use them. This should however ONLY be optional, and skippable, and parted into different styles for each class. It may require some work but I think it will work wonders if people get information on where to see and use these tutorials / trials, perhaps even throw in a minor reward or achievement to further motivate people to try it.

    By the way you I don't think you should make people pay for character slots, you should want them to make as many as they possibly can so they feel the urge to play more, experiment more, spend more time and find their favorite class have more to gear more to spend time and money and grinding on, it's a win win and it heightens the amount of people available and broadens peoples knowledge of/in the game.

    i think the reason why they would never implement some kind of "RP pool" is because it could facilitate unsavory characters manipulating the system. the current system of refining points identifies bonuses for using specific types of materials and a pool couldn't do that. so on top of eliminating the entire bonus system, it would also eliminate the chance to crit while refining.

    there are currently ten ranks on enchants and runestones. this provides a balanced playing field for lower level characters finding enchants and runestones on their path to level 60. it provides new players the experience of using the refining system while leveling up. there are seven enchants including the special event ones and five runestones not including dropbox items. all of these items show what stats they have on the tool tip, so i'm not exactly sure why these numbers need to be reduced by your suggestion. all of these items stack as long as they have no refining points in them. in my in-game experience, just like i have to go to the merchant every so often to clear my inventory of items i've picked up along my adventures, i have to manage my enchants and runestones. i have enchants and runestones that get fed RP while slotted and i carry around a few enchants that get fed RP in my inventory. if i have items that i am not using on a specific character, i'll mail it to another character or put them in the guild bank. no MMORPG offers you unlimited inventory space or some way to increase your inventory space without a price.

    you also have to keep in mind that this is a f2p MMO. everything in this game can be acquired without cost as long as you're willing to put the work in to get it. that does require time and patience. there are no items that will improve your quality of life that are only offered through limited means. all items can be acquired at no cost to you. but since this is a f2p MMO and the company is a for-profit company, of course they want players to buy zen. the items you list here, though, are some of the more lower cost items like retraining tokens and extra character slots... and both are currently on sale. normally, retraining is 300z and two extra character slots cost 500z. let's also not forget that since open beta, there have been at least three free training tokens issued with patch changes. in my opinion, this is not unreasonable. and all MMOs have to consider the risk of account manipulation especially any f2p MMO.
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    galkabeargalkabear Member, Banned Users Posts: 29
    edited February 2014
    for some of the rest.. unfortunately in dungeons, especially pugging, you are a hte mercy of having four other people on your eam that may or may not be able to play. Say for example.. you have a gwf that is dressed for pure amage, cant tank, no lifesteal / regen.. what he is doing is saying hey.. im going to be in melee.. taking alot of damage. but healer you have to focus 100% on me keeping my *** alive because i am going to die horribly fast if you dont. you have to pretty much ignore everyone else in party, including yourself, for me to do this. But hey, my power gives me less damage than a decently damaged tr even at 10k power.. so this is what i did to myself and this party.
    blegh i hate doing dungeons.
    A truth, a healer is not the means for a party to succeed. He is only an aid. As a healer if i have four other people.. 3 of them can handle themselves with only aid here and there, i will take care of them so we succeed, and i will let that fourth *** die because thats all he is capable of doing, really fast. As a cleric also, I will have astral shield that i can cast again within 1 to 2 seconds of the last falling in most cases, but i use high rec also and wis (with some int) for even more recharge speed.

    tr's.. they DO have aoe's and fast recharge speed. One aoe even hits with my tr, crits for over 20k. they also have rediculously sick single target damage, and can stealth if they need to for survivability. even perma stealths with low power can do high end damage.

    cw's.. they CAN shine.. because their mass cc's can hit everything, do decent damage to everything, and control to death everything, but in ALOT of cases, you get cw's that are mostly capable only of magic missile, with encounters sometimes, because they dont understand recharge speed, and do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> damage, cant control, etc et al.

    I would like you to experience a 5 man, no cleric party in say.. malabogs. speak over lfg channel you want a healerless run, that will turn away most of the bad people alone, and that you want people that can handle themselves, and do fast runs. Its an amazing site, and ive gotten in 3 ful malabog runs in an hour. (i also sometimes ask for no hr's.. because most hr's play badly even stil after all this time, and try to make the dungeon take longer)

    things really are rather balanced, and all have their places. you need other good players for this, not bad pug groups full of bad players that are average and give excuses for everything, especially of why a kobold kills them.. horribly fast, etc.

    what.. boss with 6800 or so gs kills you?
    especially if you are decked out, and on a gwf?
    karrundax dragon end boss i did solo, because my four bad playing party members wiped fast, and i wouldnt wipe to bring them back in because i couldnt trust them to perform. including when the dragon flew off, i killed all those adds, dragons, etc et al, all solo, its rather easy as a gwf / gf / dc to solo that boss fight.
    not to mention the other bosses in daily quests etc.
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