Who is the better rogue ?

thrufu

I consider myself as a good rogue.
Played with a few and normally I am the Top DPS, even with higer geared rogues.

But there is a new kid on the block in my guid, he is a very good rogue.
I know he is a bit better than me, but I think it doesnt justify the DPS difference.
He uses the same powers I use: DF, ITC, Dazling Strike and LS.
Even when we are at a slow boss, with the standart rotations I can, in a good day, avoid hes going into distance.

The problem is that I have better stats(except power) an I'm better geared than him, at least in the damage department.

Our stats are(I am at the left) with Stone.
His stats have campfire bonus so we must substract 1 each.



The obvious difference is in Strenght Department he has 3 more points than I do and he put 3 points on Disciple of Strength I have 2(he is human).
On the other hand, I'm a Half Orc so i have 5% more critical severity.
My feats are all standart DPS feats and Executioner Tree. And I have chosen the offensive boons.
I have better Critical. With no boosts I'm in 51.3%

In gear, I use the Swashbucking Captain Set(I get, most of the time 1k power and 1k recovery more) with Fomorian Blades and Greater Vorpal.
He uses 2/2 Fabled/Dread Legion Set, Dread Legion Blades(Not fallen Dragon) and Normal Vorpal

So the key difference is Strength ?
He has more power than me but I have Swashbucking.Does it compensate for my relative lack of power ?
He usually ends dungeons with around 300-900k more than me.
What can I improve ?

Would like to see your insight about it.

Thanks in advance.

vasdamas

yay paper rogues ^^

Ahem, well, I guess it's because of 1k+ power difference and better recharge speed (he also has +3 INT)
Don't forget the companions, they are also a great source of dps.

Leave your name@handle's via pm for best investigation :P

beckylunatic

Having higher base damage from strength applies all the time, to everything. Not just when you crit. Not just when you have combat advantage.

eton3000

yep thats a pretty big difference in STR

caexar

Strength > dexterity for damage. Human > everything else for damage.

jinadu

Skill rotation could be a big part of it.

xyntrynz1a

Strength difference especially with the Feat bonus to strength is why.
In stealth, while you are both doing Combat Advantage, his DPS is slowly walking away from yours

I say we do 10 matches.

5 All TR Skirmishes
5 PvP's which we will fill the team with 3 other TR's.

When it is all done we will have mulitiple stats to compare for the Skirmishes
and we will have Kills, Deaths and Assists

and can then see who is the better all around player.

cael13

thrufu wrote: »

I consider myself as a good rogue.

He usually ends dungeons with around 300-900k more than me.
What can I improve ?

Would like to see your insight about it.

Thanks in advance.

Wow you made a post because another TR is beating you by 300-900k dmg? Even 2mil dmg isnt enough to make you worry that another player is "better" as many factors can cause this miniscule DPS difference. Now if you are losing by 5mil or so consistently then eyah you need to re-evaluate your setup. But yes as others posted the difference is STR....would I respec for less than 1 mil worth of DPS on a dungeon run...hell no lol.

thrufu

Thank you for your answers, and sorry for my late reply !!

vasdamas wrote: »

yay paper rogues ^^

Ahem, well, I guess it's because of 1k+ power difference and better recharge speed (he also has +3 INT)
Don't forget the companions, they are also a great source of dps.
Leave your name@handle's via pm for best investigation :P

Nope, its not because 1k power, don't forget that I get 1k more power when Swashbucking is on

caexar wrote: »

Strength > dexterity for damage. Human > everything else for damage.

Yes, I now agree that Strength is better than Dexterity, but I disagree that a Human is a better DPSer than an Half Orc

Half Orc have 5% more Critical Severity,+2 bonus on Dexterity and +2 Bonus on Strength or Constitution.
Humans have 2 points in any ability and 3 feat points more in the non paragon tree.
Those 3 feat points don't give a significant advantage where DPS counts

jinadu wrote: »

Skill rotation could be a big part of it.

Skill rotation is almost the same

xyntrynz1a wrote: »

Strength difference especially with the Feat bonus to strength is why.
In stealth, while you are both doing Combat Advantage, his DPS is slowly walking away from yours

I say we do 10 matches.

5 All TR Skirmishes
5 PvP's which we will fill the team with 3 other TR's.

When it is all done we will have multiple stats to compare for the Skirmishes
and we will have Kills, Deaths and Assists

and can then see who is the better all around player.

The title of the thread is a bit misleading, I know he is a better rogue than me.
What I found strange is why my better gear didn't compensate for that.
And I'm sure he is better than me in PVP. I don't suck but I'm not very good at it.

cael13 wrote: »

Wow you made a post because another TR is beating you by 300-900k dmg? Even 2mil
dmg isnt enough to make you worry that another player is "better" as many factors can cause this
miniscule DPS difference. Now if you are losing by 5mil or so consistently then eyah you need to
re-evaluate your setup. But yes as others posted the difference is STR....would I respec for less than
1 mil worth of DPS on a dungeon run...hell no lol.

I made a post because I was curious about how he could DPS that good.
And when you think you made all the right choices and most of the time you are the top rogue in the DPS department you question yourself how it is possible.
If I were losing for 5000+ to a worse geared rogue I would cut my wrists.
And respect my char wouldn't change anything. All my points are in Strength and Dexterity and to get better strength bonus I would need to re-roll my abilities and that's impossible


So in a nutshell, Strength is the better stat for a DPS rogue. Compensates for having better Critical Chance and better Critical severity, better weapons and better all around stats, except Power...

The guides for DPS rogues, should empathise more the importance of Strength and how its better than Dexterity.
I gown up thinking that Dexterity was the better stat for DPS because of high Critical Chance.

Maybe I'll respect and put 3 points in disciple of strength instead of the Combat advantage bonus.

jinadu

Well, I think there is a lot to take into account here... His companion set up could be different from yours.
Plus he could be doing combat advantage damage at all times whereas you might not be... This also leads to the question, how often do the both of you utilize stealth because that will always enable you to do more damage no matter what.

thrufu

I played with him a few times, his build is the Standart Executioner build. Regarding stealth, the only thing I can think of is if he spend his 2 extra human points in Improving Cunning Sneak giving him 8% more stealth time, so he has a little bit more of stealth time. But during the time we played I didn't noticed he was going for stealth more than I did. About pets, he has the standard pets, the doesn't have the TTB pets or any other epic Pet.
I play NW MMO since beta so I have some sensibility built through experience to notice that its a permanent damage increase. So, Strength all the way. His Critical Chance and Critical Severity is lower than mine so the pets bonus aren't happening.
It's Talent and Strength

caexar

Actually thrufu, the three extra feats that humans get allows them to max out both disciple of strength and scoundrels training which means at the very least, humans will always have a 2% flat damage increase as a rouge better than what the other races can spec for. Further to it, a human can have a stealth duration of 8% longer than other races while still enjoying the flat damage increase as well, and as I'm sure you already know, rogue damage is amplified quite a bit by being in stealth.
These things are what make humans crazy good damage dealing rogues beyond the other races. A 5% severity increase on crits alone doesn't come close to a 2% flat damage increased which crit severity will multiply off of as well and a higher stealth duration to boot.

thrufu

caexar wrote: »

Actually thrufu, the three extra feats that humans get allows them to max out both disciple of strength and scoundrels training which means at the very least, humans will always have a 2% flat damage increase as a rouge better than what the other races can spec for. Further to it, a human can have a stealth duration of 8% longer than other races while still enjoying the flat damage increase as well, and as I'm sure you already know, rogue damage is amplified quite a bit by being in stealth.
These things are what make humans crazy good damage dealing rogues beyond the other races. A 5% severity increase on crits alone doesn't come close to a 2% flat damage increased which crit severity will multiply off of as well and a higher stealth duration to boot.

The difference is not that Huge:

1st, Orcs have +2 to dexterity and +2 to constitution or strength, so I would put +2 on strength
If I trade one point from Scoundrel Training and put in Disciple of Strength

I would have:

Same Strength bonus damage+2% Critical Chance+ 5% Critical Severity(with 50% Critical Chance its 2.5% flat damage increase)

A human would have:
Same Strength bonus damage+Less than 2% real damage increase due to Scoundrel Training limitations + 8 Sec Stealth

So what is better ???

caexar

Actually scoundrels training would be a 3% damage increase over you which is applicable during stealth since you are not being targeted by adds while stealthed. This 3% base damage increase benefits from severity as well and since the humans stealth lasts longer than yours they gain that as well as the other executioner stealth based bonuses for longer...

I can see your line of reasoning and for burst damage effect a half orc could do more, but for sustained cumulative damage, the human would do more.

howitzer001

Since you guys seem to have a great grasp of the mechanics of TRs I'd like to ask if my decision to make a Halfling TR a mistake?

I went 16 str 18 dex 15 cha. (couldn't go higher for str in ability rolls. I chose +2 dex and +2 cha) . I would appreciate anyone's input.

caexar

It depends on what you are trying to do. Halflings make the best defensive oriented rogues out of all the races. Rogue defensive strength lies its deflection severity and the halflings racial bonus and possible stat distribution cater to that strength.
You also will need to decide what you are planning to do more of between PvP or pve as each has their own different focuses.

For ease of use here's a breakdown of types of rogues and what races best suit the style.

PvE damage rogue: human
PvE tank rogue: half long
PvP damage rogue: half orc
PvP tank rogue (node hold): halfling
Permastealth damage rogue: human
Permastealth tank rogue: halfling

I honestly would not use any other race for rogue, not because they can't be effective, but because they aren't necessarily optimal in my opinion.

xyntrynz1a

Sweet

I am not Optimal

jinadu

caexar wrote: »

It depends on what you are trying to do. Halflings make the best defensive oriented rogues out of all the races. Rogue defensive strength lies its deflection severity and the halflings racial bonus and possible stat distribution cater to that strength.
You also will need to decide what you are planning to do more of between PvP or pve as each has their own different focuses.

For ease of use here's a breakdown of types of rogues and what races best suit the style.

PvE damage rogue: human
PvE tank rogue: half long
PvP damage rogue: half orc
PvP tank rogue (node hold): halfling
Permastealth damage rogue: human
Permastealth tank rogue: halfling

I honestly would not use any other race for rogue, not because they can't be effective, but because they aren't necessarily optimal in my opinion.

I would not say human for pve damage...
Half Orc +2 dex, +2 str and +5% severity... Human gets 3% defence buff which leads to human probably being best for a tank rogue.

beckylunatic

xyntrynz1a wrote: »

Sweet

I am not Optimal

That's ok, under half of my TRs are optimal too.