master at arms feat needs to be adjusted, seriously lol that feat gives 5 AC just by slotting weapon master, the +5 AC must come from stacks like the crit and deflect bonus, not a static +5 AC.
and pando's suggestion is good: moving the armpen bonus to STR cause it doesnt make sense for GWFs CON gives BOTH offense and defensive stats wtflol
I thought I should throw some bone here for people that want to see how the great GWFs perform at the highest level, when faced with full Rank 10/Perfects/legendary artifact(s) people, on voicechat, coordinating target focusing and prone/daily chains as described.
Images ALWAYS work wonders. Please note the score and the duration of the matches. These are NOT pugs from random queue. These are some of the top PvP players in the game.
Small hint: Shocking Execution counts as a kill. That means that if a TR gets a SE on you and puts you into soulforge, it will count as a kill on you, even though you didn't die...
Balanced?
Nobody said it's balanced. I said too it is NOT balanced. What i wrote is it is not god-mode, nor does the stuff some people wrote. Also, not me, but a EoA CW above, who faced and made vids against the strongest GWF sentinels in the game, stated exactly what i said: you can kill GWFs even in 2v1 with proper strategy and knowledge.
There are videos, for example, with Gannicus being taken down in the matter of seconds by a GF-CW combo. Other videos from other top-rank GWFs being taken down by 2 enemies.
This said, we've discussed it many times: yes, GWFs are OP at the moment. But, as i said, Unstoppable is not the reason.
You really only need two good ranged DPS to burst down a Sentinel GWF.
waw them walls of texts xD someone trying to win nobel prize here?
No. Just trying to give tips and explain stuff to people, and answering the OP question. But you guys seem to be more interested in saying that GWFs are god-mode rather than Learning stuff about them, how to fight them, how to kill them.
"Nerfing Unstoppable (which will ALREADY get nerfed in temp HPs and Unstoppable recovery by Healing depression) is the suggestion of a total PvP newbie." by who???by ...pando83 BERSERK - GWF Hybrid Build. Great!!!
^^^
I would hardly call you an objective talker.I do not doubt your honesty ,really,but is like me participating in a conversation where i should honestly propose to nerf my class.Nerf class=more difficult game=less fun for a gamer.As simple as that.
Will just answer this one line. I spent countless walls of text explaining people how to fight GWFs and explaining, in details, which are the weak points you HAVE to focus on to take them down.
Also: degraafination, EoA CW:
You really only need two good ranged DPS to burst down a Sentinel GWF.
Not a GWF.
Also: there are many posts made by me proposing several nerfs to GWFs, including threat rush range decreased by half, and Others i listed in the previous post.
In other threads, i also proposed different power-ups that other classes could use and supported the cause of CWs keeping their cc with tenacity and DCs being able to keep their heals.
Also, as you said, i'm "GWF hybrid build". Which is NOT the optimal build if you want to be "OP" in PvP, since it is at a disadvantage compared to tank builds. And i also worte, in another thread in the preview section, how i used Restoring Strike in place of the "BiS" chain prone combo often, to have a differend kind of setup and gameplay, and have fun with it.
I must really be interested in keeping my class "OP".
Or, may be, i'm trying to help you guys understand why your point of view about some of the GWF-related stuff is flawed.
Strategies that have been proposed are not unbelievable sinergies of incredible feats. Just some matchups and prone-DPS combos.
And, if you would listen and read carefully, you would notice that here what i just did was to say which things are, to me, the real focus to balance the class, and explain how unstoppable works and how to deal with it.
Cause if you say that Unstoppable, GWFs going Unstoppable too often or Unstoppable healing are the problem, you clearly need some info about how it works, cause you're off-track. And the info is as simpke as that:
Unstoppable works through damage absorbed. Key to face a GWF is to make him absorb a great amount of spike DPS without him being able to go Unstoppable. Which means: high, fast DPS focus, prone him first, DoT and at-will spam DURING unstoppable to slow his regeneration if you're a ranged class. This is the basic stuff, which 99% of PvPers DO NOT do.
After you learn to deal with Unstoppable, there are things to balance about the class ON TANK BUILDS and IV builds. Which are the insanely high regeneration, the lack of trade-off attack-defense, threat rush on IV builds, to start.
You want to believe Unstoppable is stil lthe problem after countless nerfs have been asked and made to the class mechaninc, you're free to complain. But it's like people complaining about TR stealth or CW cc. It's the class mechanic. If you don't know how to deal with it, it will seem OP. If you know how, you've no problem.
People complain about Unstoppable since i started playing NW. Months ago, it was a reasonable complaint. We got a several nerfs aimed at balancing it. yet, people still see it as "god-mode". Which makes me think these guys just don't understand how to deal with it.
I'd do 1 change i explained above, to determination gain, which has already been proposed by ayroux, and it is determination being build-up by a % of total health lost rather than X amount of damage taken. For the simple fact that this way you would have it work the same way on every GWF build, regardless of the amount of HP. Which is how it should be, imho.
I agree with you that among very skilled players GWF is not as OP. The real issue is that GWF make mediocre players imminently more viable. And that goes more than PVP. I'm sure we've all seen the eternal CWF ques in dungeons. Because you know that even a mediocre player will be usefull. So sure if this were a game of 1337 PVP and nothing else they would not be a problem. As things stand they are. But thank you for the mechanic explaination. I took notes. It does confirm some of the things I have seen from the other side of the screen...
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Nobody said it's balanced. I said too it is NOT balanced. What i wrote is it is not god-mode, nor does the stuff some people wrote. Also, not me, but a EoA CW above, who faced and made vids against the strongest GWF sentinels in the game, stated exactly what i said: you can kill GWFs even in 2v1 with proper strategy and knowledge.
Yeah, it's good that even some GWFs are starting to be honest. I appreciate it.
As for the pictures I posted? One of them contains the very top elite players in the game atm. I have serious doubts any premade is able to decently challenge their A-Team as of now. Also there were some TOP ranged players against the GWFs in the picture. Guess what, they basically couldn't kill them, or it was inefficient to waste time on it. Many times people just completely stop trying to even kill the GWF and just stall it. It's the best you can do.
So yeah. No balance. This stuff should never happen
All Cryptic has to do is implement MMO balance as described - squish class, has heals or high DPS, tank class, has a lot of resilience, but low offense, hybrids somewhere in between.
For the GWF, basically that would mean they would have to choose squish Destroyer for damage, or stay as sentinels but have lame damage output.
Just one more thing: GWF survivability is also given by footwork. A GWF standing still can easily get hit by TR melee Attacks, GFs and other GWFs. A GWF properly evading enemies through a good use of sprint, can survive way more. I could, sometimes, win against less experienced GWFs with better gear just cause i did good use of my footwork and they did not. And i lost, when i was less experienced, to a Lemonade Stand Destroyer cause he was using his footwork, and i was not. The same Destroyer was able to stall 3-4 of my team mates in Hotenow, just moving around columns and evading their Attacks while using "hit-and-run" strategies, taking them down 1 by 1.
The difference it makes is HUGE. And it is another factor to take into account when talking about the ability of a GWF to survive, tank or face multiple enemies.
Just to say there are many things to consider, and you need very deep knowledge of the class to point out exactly what must be changed, and what not.
One idea would be to move DG up to the third rank. So you cannot both capstone sent and get that damage boost. So your dodgy destroyer would be viable when played by a skilled operator. But the sent would lose that DPS. Again I don't play one. Just try to pay attention when they are discussing class mechanic.
Yeah, it's good that even some GWFs are starting to be honest. I appreciate it.
As for the pictures I posted? One of them contains the very top elite players in the game atm. I have serious doubts any premade is able to decently challenge their A-Team as of now. Also there were some TOP ranged players against the GWFs in the picture. Guess what, they basically couldn't kill them, or it was inefficient to waste time on it. Many times people just completely stop trying to even kill the GWF and just stall it. It's the best you can do.
So yeah. No balance. This stuff should never happen
All Cryptic has to do is implement MMO balance as described - squish class, has heals or high DPS, tank class, has a lot of resilience, but low offense, hybrids somewhere in between.
For the GWF, basically that would mean they would have to choose squish Destroyer for damage, or stay as sentinels but have lame damage output.
As i see things, i Always wanted to have things this way, in PvP:
Destroyers should have high burst DPS, the reduced CD on roar and takedown or frontline if IV, and be squishy as they are now. Which means you basically have low HP (usually around 25k at best).This way you have a hit-and-run melee fighter, which can cc and DPS fast, but can't take much damage from the enemy. This is the reason i'd move ArP to STR, and DoT resistance to CON. Would give a proper advantage to destro builds in damage in PvP.
Sentinels should be able to tank the way they do now on preview, which means their HP go down slowly, but eventually go down. And go down fast against 2 opponents. But, on the other hand, should have CONSIDERABLY less attack power compared to Destroyers. Moving ArP to STR would take away 18-19% DR ignored from their PvP damage. And it is a start. They could go STR-CON, but would lose deflection (around 8% deflection and critical chance).
They can make up some with gear combo, but would still need to give up something, for example HP enchants/ radiants.
Also, determination build through % of total health lost would make unstoppable work the same for a 25k HP GWF and a 40k HP GWF. Which would be another thing to balance tank builds.
In the middle of a DPS and full tank build, you would have all the infinite hybrid combinations.
Threat rush is cheap, and i'd decrease the range by half. Would mean that if a CW teleports away, the GWF can't threat rush right at him, but needs to move and get in range (15').
I'd love to see these changes and test them. My opinion is, we would start to see a more balanced situation with sentinel tanks in PvP, and some destroyer builds being a possible choice in PvP. Just to do not have sentinel-only GWFs in PvP, but other builds too.
One idea would be to move DG up to the third rank. So you cannot both capstone sent and get that damage boost. So your dodgy destroyer would be viable when played by a skilled operator. But the sent would lose that DPS. Again I don't play one. Just try to pay attention when they are discussing class mechanic.
As powerful as deep gash is right now, i do agree that moving it further on the destroyer tree would be a good idea. It makes up for 40% of total damage in PvE (read the numbers in other threads) and helps in PvP too. Should be a "exclusive" of a DPS focused build.
Should be tested as it's impossible to say how these changes would impact on each build.
Would do it gradually to be able to do not "overdo it" at the point of making sentinels obsolete. Would still see them have a role in point capping. As i see things, a sentinel in PvP should be able to go cap a point and survive a lot through tankiness and cc (which would make IV the preferred path for a sentinel tank, with them being able to hold out through frontline, threat rush mobility and sprint).
The DPS builds instead should work as single target kill machines. I'd increase a bit the range of flourish and the damage, to make sword master more appealing for single-target DPS.
One of my toons is GF so I know exactly the synergy that goes on there. The comparison I would make is to Lethal Hunter (on HR) which is an honest 15% and is far enough up the tree you cannot cap a different tree and afford it. Again I appreciate your openess. The last time I put out the 40% figure on these forums a pile of people were quick to deny it. Like nobody else looks at the class forums or listens when their guildies are talking mechanics.
As powerful as deep gash is right now, i do agree that moving it further on the destroyer tree would be a good idea. It makes up for 40% of total damage in PvE (read the numbers in other threads) and helps in PvP too. Should be a "exclusive" of a DPS focused build.
Should be tested as it's impossible to say how these changes would impact on each build.
Just guessing.
I am agree with this coz then Deep Gash will be only Destroyer feat as it must be. This will be less DPS for Sentinel which one must to be tank but not DPS tank.
Ye, regen/temp HP synergy with GWF class is almost as stupidly OP as undodgable, ranged, all-ignoring Skillfull Execution and 75% deflection severity at 38ish % Deflect chance.... almost
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
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jmikezMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
just send a good GF to prone combo a gwf, then pile up on it. Thats the best way of killing a gwf lol.
Jeanne -- 21.8k PvP CW
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
As I've said in another comment, most people who pay real money for stuff are in the "top PvP" guilds. And as I also said, these are most often the most elitist, immature and nasty people to be around if you're not a like minded person. These also happen to be the people who roll a perma TR or an OP GWF. Most of them won't speak up since they either are one of the people a nerf would affect, or they have friends in and outside of their guild that it would affect. And the people trolling PvP with perma/OP-GWF's does not want a change, because if balance was something they were interested in then they wouldn't have paid to get their stuff in the first place.
And I fully understand that I need a flame shield when I say things like this, but I really don't since I could care less. So flame on.
As I've said in another comment, most people who pay real money for stuff are in the "top PvP" guilds. And as I also said, these are most often the most elitist, immature and nasty people to be around if you're not a like minded person. These also happen to be the people who roll a perma TR or an OP GWF. Most of them won't speak up since they either are one of the people a nerf would affect, or they have friends in and outside of their guild that it would affect. And the people trolling PvP with perma/OP-GWF's does not want a change, because if balance was something they were interested in then they wouldn't have paid to get their stuff in the first place.
And I fully understand that I need a flame shield when I say things like this, but I really don't since I could care less. So flame on.
Yes because the servers opened yesterday not almost a year ago, and no one could have possibly farmed gear in that time.
If you had posted this in the first month or two when the servers opened you might have had a leg to stand on. You don't anymore. People have had a ton of time to farm up their own gear and enchants at this point without spending a dime. Don't insult people with your defeatist I can't get gear without paying attitude.
As I've said in another comment, most people who pay real money for stuff are in the "top PvP" guilds. And as I also said, these are most often the most elitist, immature and nasty people to be around if you're not a like minded person. These also happen to be the people who roll a perma TR or an OP GWF. Most of them won't speak up since they either are one of the people a nerf would affect, or they have friends in and outside of their guild that it would affect. And the people trolling PvP with perma/OP-GWF's does not want a change, because if balance was something they were interested in then they wouldn't have paid to get their stuff in the first place.
And I fully understand that I need a flame shield when I say things like this, but I really don't since I could care less. So flame on.
What charononus posted.
And the most suitable reason why this was posted:
The poster is not in a so called "top PvP" guild. Enough said.
just send a good GF to prone combo a gwf, then pile up on it. Thats the best way of killing a gwf lol.
Only real tactic but it leaves you short-handed elsewhere. 2/3 players held down by a GWF means 1/2 players less to contest the other two nodes.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
the game is about capturing points so I tend to just ignore them and go capture diferent points, kill them with more than one party member. and/or if I'm a dc I can keep hassling the gwf for quite a time since they are usually tanky but not very damaging so the capture point keeps under dispute.
a combo cw/tr or dc/tr with cw/dc debuffing the tank can kill most with few hits too.
"just send a good GF to prone combo a gwf, then pile up on it. Thats the best way of killing a gwf lol. "
It works only against 9k GWfs.Against 11k and upper It don't work friend.I have tested it again and again and again.
Who evers says so
1)have to play pvp since beta
2)don't play regular pvp to see what current gwf can do.
if you don't see the following you don't play pvp often. A purple/soulforged/lightning GF and a 13K GWF pummel around together vs one (1) 15-16K GWF for about 20-30 secs and when his ridicoulous reg fades just to sprint away and return again and by that time everyone in your team is dead( u left them outnumbered) and the enemies CW/TR/HR are against you ,you r toasted.Even if not his team8 return, you would die eventually albeit slower.
"As I've said in another comment, most people who pay real money for stuff are in the "top PvP" guilds. And as I also said, these are most often the most elitist, immature and nasty people to be around if you're not a like minded person. These also happen to be the people who roll a perma TR or an OP GWF. Most of them won't speak up since they either are one of the people a nerf would affect,(+100) or they have friends in and outside of their guild that it would affect. And the people trolling PvP with perma/OP-GWF's does not want a change,(+100) because if balance was something they were interested in then they wouldn't have paid to get their stuff in the first place."
+1 Agree.Couldn't say better
"Yes because the servers opened yesterday not almost a year ago, and no one could have possibly farmed gear in that time."
You only full yourself there.Give us a break.really.
Five 7th or 8th rank enhancements,perfect vorpals and soulforged armor plus an epic mount cost about....I am lost in counting.Several milions of AD.And u did that by farming eh???yea sure.Several milions?Wrong.Above 10 milion for sure.
Stop spreading misinformation.A normal player by farming 3-4 hours per day cannot make that money .As simple as that.
"The poster is not in a so called "top PvP" guild. Enough said. "
About "top" guilds and how the majority of them are daddy's credit boys ans immature jerks:
Two days ago our pug ,fought a "top" guild team. when they gave us a node at 800-125 one or two of them were hitting our three left for fun even us nit resisting trying to get out points.talking about immature and egos.
Just today 2 hours ago in pvp time in europe we played a match.We lost as usual against premades.Not hotenow arena the other.
3 of that jerks by exploiting a glitch they appeared exactly dawn of our respawn area.We fought they killed one we bullcharged 2 of them down.The remaining trolling jerk mounted his epic bettle and started running around and hided in the upper corner column of the first node in the left.Great spirit great "top guild".What his class was/?U know ..GWF...
When they feel sure they have a big mouth and full of ego.When they feel insecure ride as cowards..Great...
"Only real tactic but it leaves you short-handed elsewhere. 2/3 players held down by a GWF means 1/2 players less to contest the other two nodes. "
totally agree.The only thing that works is a TR trolling around the enemy GWF.If the enemy has two 14k and above GWf and you one it is a waste of time.You cannot win the match by realistic chances.
the game is about capturing points so I tend to just ignore them and go capture diferent points, kill them with more than one party member. and/or if I'm a dc I can keep hassling the gwf for quite a time since they are usually tanky but not very damaging so the capture point keeps under dispute.
The problem is that ignoring the GWF and moving away from him -- from a tactical stanpoint -- means you're giving the enemy team more fluid options, while at the same time limiting your own. Now, admittedly, lot of the GWF players are smug, arrogant, and have way too much confidence in their ability to jump into enemies and wreck havoc -- which means they are easily lured as a warthog.
However, there are also good players as well, and these are smart enough to not be lured so easily. All the enemy team needs to do is switch the players around so another, less tactically important class takes the place of the GWF and goes harass nodes, while the GWF turns back to the largest fight ensuing.
In most cases, the tactical initiative always goes to the team with more GWFs -- since those with less or none, have simply no choice but to try and disengage/retreat from the contested node where enemy GWFs are at (and in many cases even just simply running away becomes impossible against GWFs)
A combo cw/tr or dc/tr with cw/dc debuffing the tank can kill most with few hits too.
Maybe the 10~12k ones. Those I take down alone.
The 16k+ ones with full set of temp-HP/heal artifacts, 40k HP, SissyForge armor and battle potions? You're not taking it down with two players. In most cases you're not taking it down any time soon even with five.
What persephone said is closest to truth. Everyone knows. Even the better PvP guild members all know its (in all practicality) near impossible to take one down in higher levels of PvP, as well as they know the fact that when your own team does not have as strong GWFs, the game is hopeless.
What they're playing out in this thread is simply a charade where both protagonists and antagonists of the GWF class simply pretendi there's a real counter to the GWFreak menace -- which, there isn't. Like persephone mentioned, it is disappointing the 'pros' never really come out open and admit that as a fact, when they already know it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What persephone said is closest to truth. Everyone knows. Even the better PvP guild members all know its (in all practicality) near impossible to take one down in higher levels of PvP, as well as they know the fact that when your own team does not have as strong GWFs, the game is hopeless.
What they're playing out in this thread is simply a charade where both protagonists and antagonists of the GWF class simply pretendi there's a real counter to the GWFreak menace -- which, there isn't. Like persephone mentioned, it is disappointing the 'pros' never really come out open and admit that as a fact, when they already know it.
Hehe, just to clarify some stuff:
- this game is about scoring points, not kills, hence...
- it is sometimes better to stall, kite, root and annoy the GWF instead of killing it, cause the best GWFs are just too good to take down fast enough, and you need the already mentioned prone&daily chains, and need them coordinated, or the GWF will regen through the damage and last enough to receive support from team members, and at this point you're pretty much done for
- the game is not entirely hopeless if you don't have GWF, as long as you can efficiently take the enemy GWFs out of the action with a DC or something - but you still need specific stuff to keep the GWF from running rampant at mid or something, destroying your squishies
But yeah, everybody knows the truth about GWF capabilities. You might not see the "pros" posting here, but you can hear the voicechat from their premades, and everybody can see the scores from premades where GWFs have almost most kills and very few (if any) deaths.
So I'd say the issue is in the open, and recognized by many GWFs themselves. But you cannot really hold it against them, TRs were OP before them, and who knows what will be OP next.
Thing is... we must remember it was the developers that gave GWF IV. How crazy was that move? Spammable at-will gap closer 2 prone encounters. Prone daily. AoE prone with huge area of effect. Big nuke encounter. Big DoT that always crits. Sprint. Unstoppable. Lots of DR and deflect. Most damage dealt in PvP from tankiest class.
At this point, the GWF class is a bag full of lulz in PvP. Luckily, the really good GWFs are not that many.
But the conclusion of the story is that, even with all these advantages, and even with the GWFs having a hard time to die while also nuking most other classes to death easily, the matches against them are still winnable. But yeah. Not at pug level.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
"Yes because the servers opened yesterday not almost a year ago, and no one could have possibly farmed gear in that time."
You only full yourself there.Give us a break.really.
Five 7th or 8th rank enhancements,perfect vorpals and soulforged armor plus an epic mount cost about....I am lost in counting.Several milions of AD.And u did that by farming eh???yea sure.Several milions?Wrong.Above 10 milion for sure.
Stop spreading misinformation.A normal player by farming 3-4 hours per day cannot make that money .As simple as that.
"The poster is not in a so called "top PvP" guild. Enough said. "
Sorry but you're wrong here. Some people farm more than 3-4 hrs/day, and some people farm more efficiently than others. I'd say that dedicated players that play from Beta should be all R10/perfects/legendary artifact about now.
Sorry but you're wrong here. Some people farm more than 3-4 hrs/day, and some people farm more efficiently than others. I'd say that dedicated players that play from Beta should be all R10/perfects/legendary artifact about now.
Here is a Beta pvp player since very early of may. Currently in T1 High Prophet set, T2 weapons (w/o set eff) while the rest are T2.5s accessories.
All Rank 5 silvers as enchantment (the cheapest to get) with a lesser briatwine (sold lesser soulforged due to future pvp nerf before its price drop) and lesser plaguefire.
Mount: Epic beetle (500k AD)
Artifact: R60 Bloodraven Skull, R57 Waters
Playtime: at least 3 hours, sometimes whole day. Made 7 clerics with different spec and ability rolls. Now focusing on one since nov 2013 when i realise leveling many toons is expensive.
Show me how to get all r10/perfects/legendaries please, your comment will help the crowd a lot. Btw do you know how much to get 12 R10s 2 perfects and 3 legendary? Check AH pls, that will be over 50 mil AD. Or i trade u 1 mil AD by borrowing it from others and u repay me with 12 r10s, perfects and legends? Thanks a lot!!
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Here is a Beta pvp player since very early of may. Currently in T1 High Prophet set, T2 weapons (w/o set eff) while the rest are T2.5s accessories.
All Rank 5 silvers as enchantment (the cheapest to get) with a lesser briatwine (sold lesser soulforged due to future pvp nerf before its price drop) and lesser plaguefire.
Mount: Epic beetle (500k AD)
Artifact: R60 Bloodraven Skull, R57 Waters
Playtime: at least 3 hours, sometimes whole day. Made 7 clerics with different spec and ability rolls. Now focusing on one since nov 2013 when i realise leveling many toons is expensive.
Show me how to get all r10/perfects/legendaries please, your comment will help the crowd a lot. Btw do you know how much to get 12 R10s 2 perfects and 3 legendary? Check AH pls, that will be over 50 mil AD. Or i trade u 1 mil AD by borrowing it from others and u repay me with 12 r10s, perfects and legends? Thanks a lot!!
I play since July last year, I have all R9s, including on stone, 5 epic companions, perf/vorpal, greater SF, 3 epic artifacts, one lvl. 99, and enough AD to get my Perfect SF upgrade. I was lazy when it came to farming for extended periods of time, many people I know have r10s today.
I don't play the AH and I don't have leadership alts. All I have is a DC that I made just to fill the char spot I had and my CW.
In MMOs, I always focus on bringing a char to BiS, since I know my time resources are limited and do not allow me to gear alts properly.
OD... That line of argument has been used over and over and over again from since the dawn of PvP, during the days they didn't even have the term "PvP" or "OP" invented yet. The thing is, the "only great, few people can manage it well" argument has zero relevance to the problem suggested in any OP debate/discussion. That's what you GWF players just don't get.
Are the vast majority of GWFs are average or below? So are the vast majority of every other class players in the game. That's why we call them 'average' -- because they are the numerical majority.
The full statement would go; "Only great, few people can manage it well, so most of the times, since they are average or below, you have no problems in PvP." But is that the truth? Is that what we see everyday in PvP?
I don't know about you, but that's not what I see. What I see is just as many, normal, average players being as much 'average' and 'weak' as any other, hence the trouble we see in the high-level PvP matches, is simply repeated the same in lower level matches where average weak GWFs dominate average weak other classes. Ofcourse, by now everybody knows I am devoutly in objection to premades queueing against PuGs. Since most good players don't really think about coming out of that "green house" premade environment, its not surprising they don't know how serious this problem runs rampant in ALL levels of PvP. Ofcourse the premade teams don't have any problems in dealing with one or two average-level GWFs in the enemy team.
...
Instead, try that while queueing individually, with something other than a TR and a GWF, with equipment that is on par, or perhaps slightly lower in quality than the GWFs in the enemy team, and with PuG level players. There's no difference in how things work out: just as even high-level teams have serious trouble with GWFs, so does average level teams have with average GWFs.
Hope you see where that argument fails, here.
I have been hit or miss on the forums lately, sorry I missed this post up to this point, it is well thought out. I have played cw and gf a lot in lvl 60 pvp, though admittedly not nearly as much as gwf. This is why I talk about synergy and being in a good team. What makes the gwf so deadly is its party. Can dodge or block the gwf, can repel and entangle it and fold and spindle it, can prone and aod it....but can't do that while the other team is doing that to you. Under 60 gwfs are usually a joke and tend to flail around like The Star Wars Kid, making excellent fodder for TR's and HR's. "Go ahead and try to hit me".
Your logic is pretty sound, and maybe I am really missing something but the gwf is the master of close quarters combat in nwo, and so in a cqb game like domination he will seem totally op. But he can be fairly quickly killed by ranged dps, and if not killed than kited off node. Threatening rush doesn't have the range of most spells.
A team of all GWFs can dish out 15 knock-prones in a 360d radius that keeps your entire team down and helpless for over 10 seconds straight until they just simply, leisurely focus your memebers one by one. I know, because I've fought against the occasional trolling premades who come out with a team like that.
Let me tell you another story.
There was this time we had 4 ranged classes and me as the only melee/TR. The enemies had 4 GWFs and CW. The GWFs weren't top-of-the-line people, at least I didn't recognize any of them as the 'regulars' of PvP during my time zone. However, they had decent equipment (around 14~15k average, I think), and decent experience.
On the other hand, our team, I was the rogue with 14k GS, the CWs and HRs averaged in around 16k. All of these guys were the 'regulars' I recognized by their names. It was a team of a random PuGs with players that were experienced enough to know what to do without even ever haveing teamed up together once, a team of some of the best players that managed to queue individually, just by some incredible luck. This was probably the first, and maybe the last time I've been in a team like that.
In the end, we managed to win by 50 points or so. All of our players had to bait and sacrifice themselves like mad just trying to separate them and lure them, average deaths of my team members counting in over 15 deaths (when's the last time you've seen 'good players' die like that?), average kills counting in around 7.
During the entire match it was just 'pick the node and move, avoid fights as much as possible, horde up to one or two of them and run like mad'. The amount of concentration it took for all of us was immense, I was actually so tired after the match I logged out and went to sleep.
and that is how I do most pugs, for the win. It is the reason TO pug imo. The challenge. One has the same experience as an individual in a pug with Larry, Moe, and Curly, while Daffy Duck done left the match when node 2 went red.
You still did win. That is important. At worse it was a toss up, right? As pita as it sounds like it was, my point is kind of proven. All gwfs does not equal godmode. GS differential of 2k is not so big, to me, wen u get within 2k what really makes a difference is the gap between normal and perfect weapon and armor enchants.
The conclusion? I just don't see any 'average' group of players being able to pull off a win like this, even when fighting average level GWFs.
In a game where any class has a certain, comparable TTK(time-to-kill) rate, the GWF is the only one that just stands out so far and so high above everything else in terms of resilience (and the amount of killing power in relation to that resilience), that it simply becomes unrealistic to expect to fight and win. It doesn't matter how many of us can 1v1 and kill a GWF. What matters is in a 5v5 environment, the numbers of GWFs dictate the fight, since there are no classes that can ever truly counter it.
Unless the devs 'strike' at the heart of Unstoppable mechanics, this is going to continue. Nothings going to change, and GWFs will simply rule the game. It's bad enough I've had to play a hame with 6 GWFs in total, out of 10 players, today... worse is the fact that things will continue like this, and less and less players will be ever wanting to play anything else.
Well I started my tr and he is half way there. At least as fun as gwf. omg. Fun. To the lvl 30 tr, the lvl 30 gwf is what a big stupid dog chained to a pole (node) is to a friken king cobra that is invisible half the time. As gwf I take and hold nodes, I dominate. At least I try to, that is its role. As tr I prioritize targets for elimination. How cool is it to have prioritizing targets as your job? That and ninjaing the occasional node.
On the bright side, if everyone is playing gwf because it is so darn popular than the "average" low water mark for gwfs is significantly lower than for the other less popular classes. I think a lot of people play gwf because they hear godmode and think it will be easy. Only to be chain-proned and burst focused to dust the first time the enemy team even sniffs them out nearby.
The point of the thread is 'how to fight a tanky gwf'....simple with another gwf and/or cc combined with ranged burst damage. I do agree the class is a little op for domination pvp but I think that is as much the nature of domination pvp as it is the class of gwf.
How do you get that high? That"s 33% more than my GWF alt (and that's in his PvE version, including the augment pet)
That's not high. Tank GWF builds settle at 36-40k these days. DPS PvE builds are usually at 23-24k. 29-30k is right in the middle, where a hybrid should be. To be honest, it's a bit low even for a hybrid. But that's my choice. I'm an attack type.
I tried to build a GWF that could be good in PvE and PvP, with a focus on PvP. I went for the defensive stats and sentinel path for the simple reason that unless you want to go full PvE DPS, the defensive feats are better. Which means armor specialization, constitution focus on heroic feats, and full sentinel tree. Attributes are 23 str, 19 con and 20 dex, which is where i can start calling this toon a hybrid sentinel. Can switch to 22 str, 19 con and 21 dex, but con is maxed at 19. My gear is a basic T1 PvP armor. 1600 HP bonus and, more of all, the full set bonus allowing me, usually, to heal from 2k to 2.6k hp everytime i go unstoppable. Have 2 artifacts at epic level: waters and blood raven. 2 blue rings: one with regeneration (don't remember the name), one with regen-ArP-crit. Necklace is blue too, with regen-ArP-crit. Belt is regen-defense and HP (don't remember the name) epic. Only "above average" gear i have is the weapon set, which is the dread legion set. Only 1 radiant in my pants . All offensive slots for PvP are darks for ArP, and other defensive slots are defense. Rank 7's. Yes, i'm poor.
With a 2+2 set with HP bonus i would get over 30k, may be at 31k. But i think that being able to heal for 2k+ everytime i go unstoppable is better. Armor enchant is normal barkshield and weapon enchant is normal vorpal (can't find anything better for damage. Wanted to try terror but coal wards are at 180-200k these days). Again, i'm poor. So not rank 9-10 and perfects for me :P
It's good HP and tankiness, with strong DPS. Obviously, with such build against 2 strong PvPers, you go down fast. Have to rely a lot on footwork and use my DPS to take down 1 of them fast.
I'd be curious to try other paths, but no time and money to test builds. Always been curious about how a high deflection, destroyer build with armor specialization and constitution focus would work. Expecially with roar and takedown CDs reduced, which would allow me to stun and prone enemies much more often.
Here is a Beta pvp player since very early of may. Currently in T1 High Prophet set, T2 weapons (w/o set eff) while the rest are T2.5s accessories.
All Rank 5 silvers as enchantment (the cheapest to get) with a lesser briatwine (sold lesser soulforged due to future pvp nerf before its price drop) and lesser plaguefire.
Mount: Epic beetle (500k AD)
Artifact: R60 Bloodraven Skull, R57 Waters
Playtime: at least 3 hours, sometimes whole day. Made 7 clerics with different spec and ability rolls. Now focusing on one since nov 2013 when i realise leveling many toons is expensive.
Show me how to get all r10/perfects/legendaries please, your comment will help the crowd a lot. Btw do you know how much to get 12 R10s 2 perfects and 3 legendary? Check AH pls, that will be over 50 mil AD. Or i trade u 1 mil AD by borrowing it from others and u repay me with 12 r10s, perfects and legends? Thanks a lot!!
Trying to not be rude here, but what have u been doing the whole time in this game? There are so many ways to make ad in this game. CN, GG, AH, leadership
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Comments
and pando's suggestion is good: moving the armpen bonus to STR cause it doesnt make sense for GWFs CON gives BOTH offense and defensive stats wtflol
Nobody said it's balanced. I said too it is NOT balanced. What i wrote is it is not god-mode, nor does the stuff some people wrote. Also, not me, but a EoA CW above, who faced and made vids against the strongest GWF sentinels in the game, stated exactly what i said: you can kill GWFs even in 2v1 with proper strategy and knowledge.
There are videos, for example, with Gannicus being taken down in the matter of seconds by a GF-CW combo. Other videos from other top-rank GWFs being taken down by 2 enemies.
This said, we've discussed it many times: yes, GWFs are OP at the moment. But, as i said, Unstoppable is not the reason.
That is the line, and i would confirm.
No. Just trying to give tips and explain stuff to people, and answering the OP question. But you guys seem to be more interested in saying that GWFs are god-mode rather than Learning stuff about them, how to fight them, how to kill them.
Will just answer this one line. I spent countless walls of text explaining people how to fight GWFs and explaining, in details, which are the weak points you HAVE to focus on to take them down.
Also: degraafination, EoA CW:
Not a GWF.
Also: there are many posts made by me proposing several nerfs to GWFs, including threat rush range decreased by half, and Others i listed in the previous post.
In other threads, i also proposed different power-ups that other classes could use and supported the cause of CWs keeping their cc with tenacity and DCs being able to keep their heals.
Also, as you said, i'm "GWF hybrid build". Which is NOT the optimal build if you want to be "OP" in PvP, since it is at a disadvantage compared to tank builds. And i also worte, in another thread in the preview section, how i used Restoring Strike in place of the "BiS" chain prone combo often, to have a differend kind of setup and gameplay, and have fun with it.
I must really be interested in keeping my class "OP".
Or, may be, i'm trying to help you guys understand why your point of view about some of the GWF-related stuff is flawed.
Strategies that have been proposed are not unbelievable sinergies of incredible feats. Just some matchups and prone-DPS combos.
And, if you would listen and read carefully, you would notice that here what i just did was to say which things are, to me, the real focus to balance the class, and explain how unstoppable works and how to deal with it.
Cause if you say that Unstoppable, GWFs going Unstoppable too often or Unstoppable healing are the problem, you clearly need some info about how it works, cause you're off-track. And the info is as simpke as that:
Unstoppable works through damage absorbed. Key to face a GWF is to make him absorb a great amount of spike DPS without him being able to go Unstoppable. Which means: high, fast DPS focus, prone him first, DoT and at-will spam DURING unstoppable to slow his regeneration if you're a ranged class. This is the basic stuff, which 99% of PvPers DO NOT do.
After you learn to deal with Unstoppable, there are things to balance about the class ON TANK BUILDS and IV builds. Which are the insanely high regeneration, the lack of trade-off attack-defense, threat rush on IV builds, to start.
You want to believe Unstoppable is stil lthe problem after countless nerfs have been asked and made to the class mechaninc, you're free to complain. But it's like people complaining about TR stealth or CW cc. It's the class mechanic. If you don't know how to deal with it, it will seem OP. If you know how, you've no problem.
People complain about Unstoppable since i started playing NW. Months ago, it was a reasonable complaint. We got a several nerfs aimed at balancing it. yet, people still see it as "god-mode". Which makes me think these guys just don't understand how to deal with it.
I'd do 1 change i explained above, to determination gain, which has already been proposed by ayroux, and it is determination being build-up by a % of total health lost rather than X amount of damage taken. For the simple fact that this way you would have it work the same way on every GWF build, regardless of the amount of HP. Which is how it should be, imho.
Yeah, it's good that even some GWFs are starting to be honest. I appreciate it.
As for the pictures I posted? One of them contains the very top elite players in the game atm. I have serious doubts any premade is able to decently challenge their A-Team as of now. Also there were some TOP ranged players against the GWFs in the picture. Guess what, they basically couldn't kill them, or it was inefficient to waste time on it. Many times people just completely stop trying to even kill the GWF and just stall it. It's the best you can do.
So yeah. No balance. This stuff should never happen
All Cryptic has to do is implement MMO balance as described - squish class, has heals or high DPS, tank class, has a lot of resilience, but low offense, hybrids somewhere in between.
For the GWF, basically that would mean they would have to choose squish Destroyer for damage, or stay as sentinels but have lame damage output.
The difference it makes is HUGE. And it is another factor to take into account when talking about the ability of a GWF to survive, tank or face multiple enemies.
Just to say there are many things to consider, and you need very deep knowledge of the class to point out exactly what must be changed, and what not.
As i see things, i Always wanted to have things this way, in PvP:
Destroyers should have high burst DPS, the reduced CD on roar and takedown or frontline if IV, and be squishy as they are now. Which means you basically have low HP (usually around 25k at best).This way you have a hit-and-run melee fighter, which can cc and DPS fast, but can't take much damage from the enemy. This is the reason i'd move ArP to STR, and DoT resistance to CON. Would give a proper advantage to destro builds in damage in PvP.
Sentinels should be able to tank the way they do now on preview, which means their HP go down slowly, but eventually go down. And go down fast against 2 opponents. But, on the other hand, should have CONSIDERABLY less attack power compared to Destroyers. Moving ArP to STR would take away 18-19% DR ignored from their PvP damage. And it is a start. They could go STR-CON, but would lose deflection (around 8% deflection and critical chance).
They can make up some with gear combo, but would still need to give up something, for example HP enchants/ radiants.
Also, determination build through % of total health lost would make unstoppable work the same for a 25k HP GWF and a 40k HP GWF. Which would be another thing to balance tank builds.
In the middle of a DPS and full tank build, you would have all the infinite hybrid combinations.
Threat rush is cheap, and i'd decrease the range by half. Would mean that if a CW teleports away, the GWF can't threat rush right at him, but needs to move and get in range (15').
I'd love to see these changes and test them. My opinion is, we would start to see a more balanced situation with sentinel tanks in PvP, and some destroyer builds being a possible choice in PvP. Just to do not have sentinel-only GWFs in PvP, but other builds too.
As powerful as deep gash is right now, i do agree that moving it further on the destroyer tree would be a good idea. It makes up for 40% of total damage in PvE (read the numbers in other threads) and helps in PvP too. Should be a "exclusive" of a DPS focused build.
Should be tested as it's impossible to say how these changes would impact on each build.
Would do it gradually to be able to do not "overdo it" at the point of making sentinels obsolete. Would still see them have a role in point capping. As i see things, a sentinel in PvP should be able to go cap a point and survive a lot through tankiness and cc (which would make IV the preferred path for a sentinel tank, with them being able to hold out through frontline, threat rush mobility and sprint).
The DPS builds instead should work as single target kill machines. I'd increase a bit the range of flourish and the damage, to make sword master more appealing for single-target DPS.
Just guessing.
I am agree with this coz then Deep Gash will be only Destroyer feat as it must be. This will be less DPS for Sentinel which one must to be tank but not DPS tank.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
And I fully understand that I need a flame shield when I say things like this, but I really don't since I could care less. So flame on.
Yes because the servers opened yesterday not almost a year ago, and no one could have possibly farmed gear in that time.
If you had posted this in the first month or two when the servers opened you might have had a leg to stand on. You don't anymore. People have had a ton of time to farm up their own gear and enchants at this point without spending a dime. Don't insult people with your defeatist I can't get gear without paying attitude.
What charononus posted.
And the most suitable reason why this was posted:
The poster is not in a so called "top PvP" guild. Enough said.
Only real tactic but it leaves you short-handed elsewhere. 2/3 players held down by a GWF means 1/2 players less to contest the other two nodes.
a combo cw/tr or dc/tr with cw/dc debuffing the tank can kill most with few hits too.
It works only against 9k GWfs.Against 11k and upper It don't work friend.I have tested it again and again and again.
Who evers says so
1)have to play pvp since beta
2)don't play regular pvp to see what current gwf can do.
if you don't see the following you don't play pvp often. A purple/soulforged/lightning GF and a 13K GWF pummel around together vs one (1) 15-16K GWF for about 20-30 secs and when his ridicoulous reg fades just to sprint away and return again and by that time everyone in your team is dead( u left them outnumbered) and the enemies CW/TR/HR are against you ,you r toasted.Even if not his team8 return, you would die eventually albeit slower.
"As I've said in another comment, most people who pay real money for stuff are in the "top PvP" guilds. And as I also said, these are most often the most elitist, immature and nasty people to be around if you're not a like minded person. These also happen to be the people who roll a perma TR or an OP GWF. Most of them won't speak up since they either are one of the people a nerf would affect,(+100) or they have friends in and outside of their guild that it would affect. And the people trolling PvP with perma/OP-GWF's does not want a change,(+100) because if balance was something they were interested in then they wouldn't have paid to get their stuff in the first place."
+1 Agree.Couldn't say better
"Yes because the servers opened yesterday not almost a year ago, and no one could have possibly farmed gear in that time."
You only full yourself there.Give us a break.really.
Five 7th or 8th rank enhancements,perfect vorpals and soulforged armor plus an epic mount cost about....I am lost in counting.Several milions of AD.And u did that by farming eh???yea sure.Several milions?Wrong.Above 10 milion for sure.
Stop spreading misinformation.A normal player by farming 3-4 hours per day cannot make that money .As simple as that.
"The poster is not in a so called "top PvP" guild. Enough said. "
About "top" guilds and how the majority of them are daddy's credit boys ans immature jerks:
Two days ago our pug ,fought a "top" guild team. when they gave us a node at 800-125 one or two of them were hitting our three left for fun even us nit resisting trying to get out points.talking about immature and egos.
Just today 2 hours ago in pvp time in europe we played a match.We lost as usual against premades.Not hotenow arena the other.
3 of that jerks by exploiting a glitch they appeared exactly dawn of our respawn area.We fought they killed one we bullcharged 2 of them down.The remaining trolling jerk mounted his epic bettle and started running around and hided in the upper corner column of the first node in the left.Great spirit great "top guild".What his class was/?U know ..GWF...
When they feel sure they have a big mouth and full of ego.When they feel insecure ride as cowards..Great...
"Only real tactic but it leaves you short-handed elsewhere. 2/3 players held down by a GWF means 1/2 players less to contest the other two nodes. "
totally agree.The only thing that works is a TR trolling around the enemy GWF.If the enemy has two 14k and above GWf and you one it is a waste of time.You cannot win the match by realistic chances.
The problem is that ignoring the GWF and moving away from him -- from a tactical stanpoint -- means you're giving the enemy team more fluid options, while at the same time limiting your own. Now, admittedly, lot of the GWF players are smug, arrogant, and have way too much confidence in their ability to jump into enemies and wreck havoc -- which means they are easily lured as a warthog.
However, there are also good players as well, and these are smart enough to not be lured so easily. All the enemy team needs to do is switch the players around so another, less tactically important class takes the place of the GWF and goes harass nodes, while the GWF turns back to the largest fight ensuing.
In most cases, the tactical initiative always goes to the team with more GWFs -- since those with less or none, have simply no choice but to try and disengage/retreat from the contested node where enemy GWFs are at (and in many cases even just simply running away becomes impossible against GWFs)
Maybe the 10~12k ones. Those I take down alone.
The 16k+ ones with full set of temp-HP/heal artifacts, 40k HP, SissyForge armor and battle potions? You're not taking it down with two players. In most cases you're not taking it down any time soon even with five.
What persephone said is closest to truth. Everyone knows. Even the better PvP guild members all know its (in all practicality) near impossible to take one down in higher levels of PvP, as well as they know the fact that when your own team does not have as strong GWFs, the game is hopeless.
What they're playing out in this thread is simply a charade where both protagonists and antagonists of the GWF class simply pretendi there's a real counter to the GWFreak menace -- which, there isn't. Like persephone mentioned, it is disappointing the 'pros' never really come out open and admit that as a fact, when they already know it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Hehe, just to clarify some stuff:
- this game is about scoring points, not kills, hence...
- it is sometimes better to stall, kite, root and annoy the GWF instead of killing it, cause the best GWFs are just too good to take down fast enough, and you need the already mentioned prone&daily chains, and need them coordinated, or the GWF will regen through the damage and last enough to receive support from team members, and at this point you're pretty much done for
- the game is not entirely hopeless if you don't have GWF, as long as you can efficiently take the enemy GWFs out of the action with a DC or something - but you still need specific stuff to keep the GWF from running rampant at mid or something, destroying your squishies
But yeah, everybody knows the truth about GWF capabilities. You might not see the "pros" posting here, but you can hear the voicechat from their premades, and everybody can see the scores from premades where GWFs have almost most kills and very few (if any) deaths.
So I'd say the issue is in the open, and recognized by many GWFs themselves. But you cannot really hold it against them, TRs were OP before them, and who knows what will be OP next.
Thing is... we must remember it was the developers that gave GWF IV. How crazy was that move? Spammable at-will gap closer
At this point, the GWF class is a bag full of lulz in PvP. Luckily, the really good GWFs are not that many.
But the conclusion of the story is that, even with all these advantages, and even with the GWFs having a hard time to die while also nuking most other classes to death easily, the matches against them are still winnable. But yeah. Not at pug level.
Sorry but you're wrong here. Some people farm more than 3-4 hrs/day, and some people farm more efficiently than others. I'd say that dedicated players that play from Beta should be all R10/perfects/legendary artifact about now.
How do you get that high? That"s 33% more than my GWF alt (and that's in his PvE version, including the augment pet)
Five defense slots, three from armor/belt/pants, two from Greater Rings of Health, each with R10 Radiants
those items alone give you 6.6k HP alone (5k from radiants, 1k from rings, 600 from belt)
Then if you have the Toughness feat, and you have the gear that gives the HP bonus, and if you are a high CON build, you can get in excess of 35k HP
Here is a Beta pvp player since very early of may. Currently in T1 High Prophet set, T2 weapons (w/o set eff) while the rest are T2.5s accessories.
All Rank 5 silvers as enchantment (the cheapest to get) with a lesser briatwine (sold lesser soulforged due to future pvp nerf before its price drop) and lesser plaguefire.
Mount: Epic beetle (500k AD)
Artifact: R60 Bloodraven Skull, R57 Waters
Playtime: at least 3 hours, sometimes whole day. Made 7 clerics with different spec and ability rolls. Now focusing on one since nov 2013 when i realise leveling many toons is expensive.
Show me how to get all r10/perfects/legendaries please, your comment will help the crowd a lot. Btw do you know how much to get 12 R10s 2 perfects and 3 legendary? Check AH pls, that will be over 50 mil AD. Or i trade u 1 mil AD by borrowing it from others and u repay me with 12 r10s, perfects and legends? Thanks a lot!!
I play since July last year, I have all R9s, including on stone, 5 epic companions, perf/vorpal, greater SF, 3 epic artifacts, one lvl. 99, and enough AD to get my Perfect SF upgrade. I was lazy when it came to farming for extended periods of time, many people I know have r10s today.
I don't play the AH and I don't have leadership alts. All I have is a DC that I made just to fill the char spot I had and my CW.
In MMOs, I always focus on bringing a char to BiS, since I know my time resources are limited and do not allow me to gear alts properly.
I have been hit or miss on the forums lately, sorry I missed this post up to this point, it is well thought out. I have played cw and gf a lot in lvl 60 pvp, though admittedly not nearly as much as gwf. This is why I talk about synergy and being in a good team. What makes the gwf so deadly is its party. Can dodge or block the gwf, can repel and entangle it and fold and spindle it, can prone and aod it....but can't do that while the other team is doing that to you. Under 60 gwfs are usually a joke and tend to flail around like The Star Wars Kid , making excellent fodder for TR's and HR's. "Go ahead and try to hit me".
Your logic is pretty sound, and maybe I am really missing something but the gwf is the master of close quarters combat in nwo, and so in a cqb game like domination he will seem totally op. But he can be fairly quickly killed by ranged dps, and if not killed than kited off node. Threatening rush doesn't have the range of most spells.
and that is how I do most pugs, for the win. It is the reason TO pug imo. The challenge. One has the same experience as an individual in a pug with Larry, Moe, and Curly, while Daffy Duck done left the match when node 2 went red.
You still did win. That is important. At worse it was a toss up, right? As pita as it sounds like it was, my point is kind of proven. All gwfs does not equal godmode. GS differential of 2k is not so big, to me, wen u get within 2k what really makes a difference is the gap between normal and perfect weapon and armor enchants.
Well I started my tr and he is half way there. At least as fun as gwf. omg. Fun. To the lvl 30 tr, the lvl 30 gwf is what a big stupid dog chained to a pole (node) is to a friken king cobra that is invisible half the time. As gwf I take and hold nodes, I dominate. At least I try to, that is its role. As tr I prioritize targets for elimination. How cool is it to have prioritizing targets as your job? That and ninjaing the occasional node.
On the bright side, if everyone is playing gwf because it is so darn popular than the "average" low water mark for gwfs is significantly lower than for the other less popular classes. I think a lot of people play gwf because they hear godmode and think it will be easy. Only to be chain-proned and burst focused to dust the first time the enemy team even sniffs them out nearby.
The point of the thread is 'how to fight a tanky gwf'....simple with another gwf and/or cc combined with ranged burst damage. I do agree the class is a little op for domination pvp but I think that is as much the nature of domination pvp as it is the class of gwf.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Well said good sir, well said indeed! :cool:
That's not high. Tank GWF builds settle at 36-40k these days. DPS PvE builds are usually at 23-24k. 29-30k is right in the middle, where a hybrid should be. To be honest, it's a bit low even for a hybrid. But that's my choice. I'm an attack type.
I tried to build a GWF that could be good in PvE and PvP, with a focus on PvP. I went for the defensive stats and sentinel path for the simple reason that unless you want to go full PvE DPS, the defensive feats are better. Which means armor specialization, constitution focus on heroic feats, and full sentinel tree. Attributes are 23 str, 19 con and 20 dex, which is where i can start calling this toon a hybrid sentinel. Can switch to 22 str, 19 con and 21 dex, but con is maxed at 19. My gear is a basic T1 PvP armor. 1600 HP bonus and, more of all, the full set bonus allowing me, usually, to heal from 2k to 2.6k hp everytime i go unstoppable. Have 2 artifacts at epic level: waters and blood raven. 2 blue rings: one with regeneration (don't remember the name), one with regen-ArP-crit. Necklace is blue too, with regen-ArP-crit. Belt is regen-defense and HP (don't remember the name) epic. Only "above average" gear i have is the weapon set, which is the dread legion set. Only 1 radiant in my pants
With a 2+2 set with HP bonus i would get over 30k, may be at 31k. But i think that being able to heal for 2k+ everytime i go unstoppable is better. Armor enchant is normal barkshield and weapon enchant is normal vorpal (can't find anything better for damage. Wanted to try terror but coal wards are at 180-200k these days). Again, i'm poor. So not rank 9-10 and perfects for me :P
It's good HP and tankiness, with strong DPS. Obviously, with such build against 2 strong PvPers, you go down fast. Have to rely a lot on footwork and use my DPS to take down 1 of them fast.
I'd be curious to try other paths, but no time and money to test builds. Always been curious about how a high deflection, destroyer build with armor specialization and constitution focus would work. Expecially with roar and takedown CDs reduced, which would allow me to stun and prone enemies much more often.
Trying to not be rude here, but what have u been doing the whole time in this game? There are so many ways to make ad in this game. CN, GG, AH, leadership
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)