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How to fight a tanky GWF?
barroso986
Member Posts: 7 Arc User
I was wondering what strategies game developers had in mind for any non-tank when fighting a tanky GWF with its endless knockdowns and ***HEALS***(+ elven battle/soulforged enchant and Bloodcrystal art)? Bend down low?
Post edited by barroso986 on
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Not a dev, but to give an answer:
(1) Bring in a HR, a CW, and TR with as much GS AND skill level as the target GWF
(2) Get the CW to CC the GWF and focus as much as possible with the TR
When Unstoppable pops:
(3) get the HR to apply the bugged grasping roots and everyone run away
(4) When Unstoppable dies out, go to (2)
(5) If the GWF decides to just bail, go to (3)
Other than something like this, there's nothing taking down a GWF with around 40k HP, 17k+ GS and combat experience.
Ofcourse, the problem would be if there's one of these GWFs in the enemy team, it needs 2~3 of you to take it down... which leaves the rest of your team to be squashed by the other 4 members of the enemy team and lose the match.
Even better, if you have two of these in the enemy team, then there's hardly a way to win unless your team is consisted of at least three~four of very best players, and the other guy at least having as much GS.
An alternative, is simply getting those GWFreaks on your team as well.
In other words, don't expect to win when the enemy has a good GWF and you have none. It's simply a blatantly OP class that can't be really kept under check without superior numbers.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Quite simply: cc focus DPS the GWF will take him down eventually. Doing chip damage on him will make him Unstoppable. Literally. Sad thing is, many players choose to do the latter, and end up seeing the GWF as a demigod.
If you have one, slot a prone power. Unstoppable cannot be activated while proned.
DO NOT, NEVER spam att wills when he's OUT of Unstoppable. Will only feed his determination and make him go unstoppable more.
When he's out of Unstoppable, cc him and deal as much spike damage as you can (can't say to other classes how to cc-prone and spike damage with their class).
Use Damage over Time powers to slow down his regeneration.
If you're ranged and can take some distance, spam at-wills WHEN HE IS IN Unstoppable to deal little damage and DoT, and slow down his regeneration.
If you're in a Group vs a GWF, follow the above. No at-will spam when he's normal. Prone him as much as you can and while he's proned unload all your encounters on him. He'll get up and go unstoppable. Take some distance, spam at-wills, avoid him/ protect each Others (root him, GFs/ tanks shield your CWs/ DCs, TRs deploy your clones or go ITC and shield your fellow CWs/ DCs. DCs/ CWs if you get targeted, sun among your team mates to mess up his aim).
His HP will drop fast while he is proned and focused. Will recover during unstoppable a bit, may shot his pots and artifacts, but at the second rotation he should very well go down if your gear is at the same level. 2v1 is enough to take one down.
1v1 i'd say only a skilled TR, skilled HR, or another GWF. GFs only if they have better gear/ enchants.
That's how things are right now.
If you can't kill him/ he seem God-Like to you, and you lose 2v1/ 3v1 or more, you're either doing it wrong or you just don't have the gear score.
My experience is, too many players, when gangin' up against a GWF, spam at wills when he's normal. It's wonderful for us cause you can stay in Unstoppable 99% of the time. Also, many players, after doing this, crush their encounters on the Unstoppable GWF. Even better, since you're basically dealing little damage, wasting your DPS on his temporary HP and increased DR.
The best answer is, don't. Go cap another point, it's the only thing worth your time you can do :P
Cause a 17k GWF against a pug is OBVIOUSLY in a big advantage. Pugs have usually like 7k less gear score than that.
Talking about normal GWFs, i've seen teams with no GWFs, just CWs-HRs and TRs, beating teams with 2 GWFs. Just good gear, experience, and focused ranged DPS on the 2 big guys, then take care of the Others.
I've also beein in a match with EoA members (which means, good PvPers). I was the only GWF on my team, and i'm a offensive hybrid with 29-30k HP, normal vorpal and normal barkshield, 13.6k GS (not god-like at all). Enemy team got 2 sentinel tanks with greaters/ perfects. We won.
And considering i was not outclassing the other 2 GWFs (but keeping them busy, yes), this should mean that 2 GWFs or 1GWFs vs 0 GWFs "winning" is not really a rule.
It's situational.
GWFs as they are now, are too powerful. Must be equally geared AND very skilled to face them 1v1 with TR/HR/another GWF.
But if they seem God-Like, then something is also wrong in your playstyle or gear, or build, or you are a CW, or all of these.
Saying this just cause while i agree that they are too powerful and i'm happy if things get balanced, i'd like to make people understand how GWFs work, so that it'll be more challenging in PvP (you really do not feel super-powerful facing 3-4-5 enemies just cause they don't know how to fight you).
1. Send a TR with full perma stealh build and High Con/Radiant.
2. Send a good DC, and I do mean good here or he would just die.
3. Send a good GF, yes GF is kind of a tank but he is really effective in fighting GWF because of Bull Charge.
4. Send another GWF but u don't want tank so guess that is a no.
That is pure 1v1 case.
If you are in group fight having trouble to kill a gwf best answer is don't touch him, kill their back line before the GWF does to yours.
WTB Class Reroll please
Once the HR's roots have been patched that will no longer be a viable method of taking down a GWF.
As for the topic, TR's probably have the highest chance of survival against GWF's right now because of Stealth. It's almost impossible to take down a high-end GWF by 1 player alone, but the best one can do is to stalemate them and prevent the GWF's team from gaining points on that node. A stealthy TR (BnS SS ITC) can kite a GWF in the node while in Stealth. Good GWF's will find these TR's even in Stealth, but good TR's should also be able to elude them.
If there's no available TR, it is recommended to play defensively against them.
Easy for you to say when the class has a CC-immunity-ignoring bugged-power. Try telling that to the CWs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Unfortunately, in the other guy's shoes, leaving the Temp-HP intact influences the already bullshi* level of regen -- which simply rectifies any amount of mistakes made on part of the GWF.
The dilemma for most classes is that unless you still do some amount of constant damage to offset the regen rate, every time the GWF goes into Unstoppable he recovers a good hefty portion of his lost HP. It doesn't matter if the GWF makes two, three, five, ten mistakes -- every fight against any GWF that is on par with your GS/skill level is bound to be a long one, and most of his mistakes are remedied through Unstoppable.
The other guy, of course, doesn't get that luxury. It only takes one mistake for the GWF to capitalize on, and then just finish the fight and leave the opponent dead in his tracks.
In the end, there is only one way to "balance" GWFs. Hit them where it makes them OP in the first place -- Unstoppable. The heal/regen/temp-HP nerf announced seemed like a change towards balance, but then they brought in Tenacity, and simply offset whatever negative impact the GWF received... so, most of the people who've been in the preview shard say "Nothing's changed".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter#Sentinel_Feats_3
There's the link, the feat is unstoppable recovery
When i was spotting the enemy gwf(which was in fashion mode,i could not see his armor and effects) i was bull charging at him.he was down.Lunging strike.At that point my tam8 gwf arrived every time.We sourround the enemy gwf.Me hiiting over shield my team8 in his back.
The enemy team8 doesn't seem to feel tensed rather relaxed.Cause from time to time he would show his back to me and hit the team8.
I had equipped indomidable sword ,normal lightning enchantment(+12%dmg) 4k power(+143 damage),and the feature 10% more damage when i take i hit.Which is granted that always is in affect.
At one point i did knight's challenge(+100%) damage and immediatelly crescendo.That is...i don't know.Numbers float around fast 3k,5k,6k,and then 12k in pve so i quess something similar in pvp.although i could not see them
Do you know hat happened???
Almost nothing.He lost some hit points.about 25-30%.
Bottom line.He turned and kiled me and then the team8 gwf.
We had a CW with epic enchants on team and a 3k zen mount.He/she quitted immediatelly.
Really...dear devs.....Are you sane???????Nerf that class,nerf unstoppable.It is prety hilarious.Awfull and hillarious at the same time.
And after that match.I disagree with everything.Except a rogue kitting.Meaning keeping a full epic gwf busy.
There is no way to kill an experienced 16-17k gwf and your team to win.Even if you manage to do.He will have kept busy 2-3 memebers of your team.meaning his 4 buddies will deal with 2 of your own=game lost.
Strats include:
- stall GWF. Best class to do it: DC. Good DC will take the GWF out of the game and frustrate it to tears.
- root GWF while on way to the point
- put GF to troll GWF off the point. This won't kill the GWF though.
- try to kill GWF when in numeric superiority. Prone chaining and daily chaining are pretty much required, or the GWF will outlast enough to get support, and then you will have to switch from it
And that's about it. Great GWFs just won't die against good/average teams to be honest. They have a hard time dying even against great teams. Average GWFs are hardly a problem, they die easily.
So for now, not much to do if you face one of the great ones.
PS: it's a shame that most of the highly regarded PvPers are pretty quiet on this issue. Guys, your voicechats are on streams and Youtube videos. We know what you think
Forced to say this again:
MMO tradeoffs lesson:
- tanky char, low offense
- offensive char, squish
Ubertanky char with BEST offense (GWF does double the overall damage of next class in PvP)? NONONO.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Well the thing is, the vast majority of GWFs are average or below. The best of the best, yes the gwf comes out on top. But a average or good gwf on an average team vs a good team with a few great characters is just dead. A TR is far more useful in that situation.
Also, an interesting side note, a team of all gwfs vs a rainbow team of equal gear and skill is not zomg god mode team. Not by a long shot. When you put 3 gwfs in a team with two dc's, that is much more like godmode. It kind of says a lot about what the class really is on a individual scale and what it is in a team. In a good mixed team gwf is op in pvp. But in a bad mix (like all tanks) it is a little mediocre. I say tat with no real authority, just experience experimenting with all sorts of combinations.
Jugger Conq GF
....
OD... That line of argument has been used over and over and over again from since the dawn of PvP, during the days they didn't even have the term "PvP" or "OP" invented yet. The thing is, the "only great, few people can manage it well" argument has zero relevance to the problem suggested in any OP debate/discussion. That's what you GWF players just don't get.
Are the vast majority of GWFs are average or below? So are the vast majority of every other class players in the game. That's why we call them 'average' -- because they are the numerical majority.
The full statement would go; "Only great, few people can manage it well, so most of the times, since they are average or below, you have no problems in PvP." But is that the truth? Is that what we see everyday in PvP?
I don't know about you, but that's not what I see. What I see is just as many, normal, average players being as much 'average' and 'weak' as any other, hence the trouble we see in the high-level PvP matches, is simply repeated the same in lower level matches where average weak GWFs dominate average weak other classes. Ofcourse, by now everybody knows I am devoutly in objection to premades queueing against PuGs. Since most good players don't really think about coming out of that "green house" premade environment, its not surprising they don't know how serious this problem runs rampant in ALL levels of PvP. Ofcourse the premade teams don't have any problems in dealing with one or two average-level GWFs in the enemy team.
...
Instead, try that while queueing individually, with something other than a TR and a GWF, with equipment that is on par, or perhaps slightly lower in quality than the GWFs in the enemy team, and with PuG level players. There's no difference in how things work out: just as even high-level teams have serious trouble with GWFs, so does average level teams have with average GWFs.
Hope you see where that argument fails, here.
A team of all GWFs can dish out 15 knock-prones in a 360d radius that keeps your entire team down and helpless for over 10 seconds straight until they just simply, leisurely focus your memebers one by one. I know, because I've fought against the occasional trolling premades who come out with a team like that.
Let me tell you another story.
There was this time we had 4 ranged classes and me as the only melee/TR. The enemies had 4 GWFs and CW. The GWFs weren't top-of-the-line people, at least I didn't recognize any of them as the 'regulars' of PvP during my time zone. However, they had decent equipment (around 14~15k average, I think), and decent experience.
On the other hand, our team, I was the rogue with 14k GS, the CWs and HRs averaged in around 16k. All of these guys were the 'regulars' I recognized by their names. It was a team of a random PuGs with players that were experienced enough to know what to do without even ever haveing teamed up together once, a team of some of the best players that managed to queue individually, just by some incredible luck. This was probably the first, and maybe the last time I've been in a team like that.
In the end, we managed to win by 50 points or so. All of our players had to bait and sacrifice themselves like mad just trying to separate them and lure them, average deaths of my team members counting in over 15 deaths (when's the last time you've seen 'good players' die like that?), average kills counting in around 7.
During the entire match it was just 'pick the node and move, avoid fights as much as possible, horde up to one or two of them and run like mad'. The amount of concentration it took for all of us was immense, I was actually so tired after the match I logged out and went to sleep.
....
The conclusion? I just don't see any 'average' group of players being able to pull off a win like this, even when fighting average level GWFs.
In a game where any class has a certain, comparable TTK(time-to-kill) rate, the GWF is the only one that just stands out so far and so high above everything else in terms of resilience (and the amount of killing power in relation to that resilience), that it simply becomes unrealistic to expect to fight and win. It doesn't matter how many of us can 1v1 and kill a GWF. What matters is in a 5v5 environment, the numbers of GWFs dictate the fight, since there are no classes that can ever truly counter it.
Unless the devs 'strike' at the heart of Unstoppable mechanics, this is going to continue. Nothings going to change, and GWFs will simply rule the game. It's bad enough I've had to play a hame with 6 GWFs in total, out of 10 players, today... worse is the fact that things will continue like this, and less and less players will be ever wanting to play anything else.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Disclaimer: if you think Unstoppable is the source of GWF OPness, you need to learn to play PvP, need to learn to play your class and need to learn to fight GWFs.
Only wrong thing, to me, about unstoppable, is the fact that it does not work the same way for every build. In particular, the fact that it is based on X damage taken and not % of total HP lost, moltiplicating its efficiency on high HP builds. Other than that, it's the class mechanic.
You need focused DPS and cc. The most disheartening thing about GWFs is how you see people feeding their determination. Too many times if been in a match against tank GWFs, and too many times when going back to help 2-3 team mates to kill him, i see them swarming him with at wills, leaving me little time to land my prones and burst him down together. I Always think "come on, can you guys stop spamming your at-wills for 1 second and use your brain? Or at least let me 1v1 him, i would be faster. As said previously by other players, it's regeneration and, how persephone says, the lack of a tradeoff on PvP GWF tanks, that allows them to be that strong.
Tenacity will reduce the self healing. This means even the brainless bots called casual PvPers will see the GWF health going down. Will they learn to DPS them properly? I doubt.
There are other things that need tweaking to make GWFs on par with the other classes.
Nerfing Unstoppable (which will ALREADY get nerfed in temp HPs and Unstoppable recovery by Healing depression) is the suggestion of a total PvP newbie.
I'm sorry if this may seem rude, but it's reality. If you think Unstoppable is the problem, you're a newbie and you lack insight of the class and PvP in general.
Regeneration will be reduced
Tank builds should not be able to keep good attack power (i'd say, ArP moved from CON to STR, or something that really causes tank builds to have a clear reduction in damage)
Threat rush should not be spammable and should have range reduced
These are the issues. Not unstoppable.
1) Best counter is a tanky GF or DC. They can cap the node and knock GWF off to keep the points ticking.
2) Perma TR is your next best bet. Although they cannot knock the GWF off point, they can stalemate the point until help comes.
3) Send two ranged DPS (Hunters and/or CWs) to burst him down quickly. You really only need two good ranged DPS to burst down a Sentinel GWF.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
If math is not an opinion:
GWFs have 2 prone encounters on IV builds: takedown, frontline. Together, these 2 prones duration is around 6 seconds or less. And the total number of prones is 5x2=10 prones. Not 15.
Second: on a 360 degree radius means? They can position in circle and frontline together to create a Golden sunflower that can be seen from space?
From what you write, it sounds like you think 5 GWFs together can prone the entire map and then focus each enemy 1by1 while the Others are still proned. Are you trolling? Seriously...
So, let me see. 14-15k GWFs with some experience, with you ASSUMING they are not strong cause you don't recognize them. Against your 16k GS dream team. And you won. But...
YOU HAD TO USE YOUR BRAIN, USE TACTICS, FOCUS DPS THE GWFS, CAP POINTS FIRST INSTEAD OF FIGHTING OFF-NODES, AND A 15K TEAM LOST BY 50 TO A 16K TEAM
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!
Are you serious? It's not like your "dream team" made something special. You want to hear a story?
I fight other GWFs everyday. Most of they time they are better geared, most of the times they are in premades. Most of the time they are tanks while i'm hybrid. My teams many times beat other teams with more GWFs and better geared GWFs. The reason is, if the other PvPers are a bit experienced, when i face the GWFs and prone them, they focus them and kill them fast.
There are other times when i see 3-4 team mates fighting back on my base, and i find them dying with a sentinel at 70% HP. I get into the fight, wait to attack, he is out of Unstoppable, i prone him as fast as i can and chain prone him and... his HPs drop below 25% in the blink of an eye, without me even using IBS.
Also, i'd like to know why GWFs losing are, for you guys, weak-newbies, while they are normal if they win. Can't be that if a team knows how to fight them, they have a chance to beat them. No. Impossible.
Reminds me of a TR i fought some time ago. I'm hybrid, as my signature says. Can tank, but not as much as senti-tank builds. But i have huge DPS. So, i end up against him and other 2 of his team. I take 1 down, and then i die. He says "weak GWF" in chat, assuming EVERY gwf in PvP is a full tank that can take on the damage from 4-5 enemies. Next encounter, 2v1, i focus him first, and take him down in 1 rotation. His next line was "nerf this ****".
Was i weak, was i OP, which one?
Or, may be, he didn't even know what he was talking about.
There are countless guides/ suggestions, ad many GWFs, me included, have already asked for some changes to balance the class and improve the situation to make PvP more even.
But reading still some stuff from people depicting GWFs as some kind of God-Boss impossible to take down with 2-3 people, or asking for yet another nerf to Unstoppable instead of asking for the (upcoming) regeneration reduction, thrreat rush changes, proper attack/ defense tradeoff, makes me think that all the insight and suggestions in the world can't get through people who just don't want to read and learn.
William Wallace: And if this is your army, why does it go?
Veteran: We didn't come here to fight for them!
Young Soldier: Home! The English are too many!
William Wallace: Sons of Scotland! I am a GWF.
Young Soldier: GWF's are seven feet tall!
William Wallace: Yes, I've heard. GWF's kill men by the hundreds. And if one were here, they'd consume the English with fireballs from their eyes, and bolts of lightning from their HAMSTER.
[Scottish army laughs]
"Keep in mind, this is not about the fact that you can adapt strategy around the OP GWF to mostly neutralize it, as described above. It is about the fact that the class needs special attention and will kill almost everything you throw at it while also being ubertanky."
Can someone disagree with that? This is the problem.And some GWF by ego just refuse to see the truth.
Some gwf said here that bys combining strat1 with strat2 while you incorporate strat3 in your gameplay and voice chatting ,and if the planets arise in night sky and is your lucky day,you might have a possibility of to stall a gwf.
Well this is the problem.Not if the gwf can be killed by employing 2-3 15k members of any team,by voice chatting and the strategy is to stall him ,confuse him ,kill him in 40-60secs.
However if you do...congratulations you stopped GWF you lost the match!Except if the gwf team8s ponder at the night sky or writing poetry....
"Nerfing Unstoppable (which will ALREADY get nerfed in temp HPs and Unstoppable recovery by Healing depression) is the suggestion of a total PvP newbie." by who???by ...pando83 BERSERK - GWF Hybrid Build. Great!!!
^^^
I would hardly call you an objective talker.I do not doubt your honesty ,really,but is like me participating in a conversation where i should honestly propose to nerf my class.Nerf class=more difficult game=less fun for a gamer.As simple as that.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Unstoppable
50% damage resist?An offensive class? And it should stay as it is?
I am not a gwf friend i don't know your sets well.Is the link describing accuratelly?I accept that.but i know that an offensive class should have not more than 35% DR .
pershephone said :
"Forced to say this again: MMO tradeoffs lesson:
- tanky char, low offense
- offensive char, squish
Ubertanky char with BEST offense (GWF does double the overall damage of next class in PvP)? NONONO. "
+1
Kweassa said:
"In a game where any class has a certain, comparable TTK(time-to-kill) rate, the GWF is the only one that just stands out so far and so high above everything else in terms of resilience that it simply becomes unrealistic to expect to fight and win. "
This summarizes the problem very well i think.
"It doesn't matter how many of us can 1v1 and kill a GWF. What matters is in a 5v5 environment, the numbers of GWFs dictate the fight, since there are no classes that can ever truly counter it."
+1.
Images ALWAYS work wonders. Please note the score and the duration of the matches. These are NOT pugs from random queue. These are some of the top PvP players in the game.
Small hint: Shocking Execution counts as a kill. That means that if a TR gets a SE on you and puts you into soulforge, it will count as a kill on you, even though you didn't die...
Balanced?
The main problem is that GWF can stack all defensive stast in the game in huge amount of %.