How much is still being made?

boomba66

Title says it all, seems like the new column has fewer and fewer mods being completed of late. Do you think if next big patch has some foundry love or some incentives for playing a foundry their may be more work put back into it by the community?

melinden

I think it is just the way things cycle naturally. Right before Christmas/New Years things were sloooow because holidays take up time, people travel, and anyone on the academic year is in the middle of finals. Then we had a HUGE rush in January. Now that new crop of foundries is out...so folks are tired and taking a break or working on their new ones. So I imagine we'll see another rush in a month or two.

antonkyle

What's the point? Even if you get plays they just get slated for poor quest paths, no loot and glitches that are not the fault of the authors.

Three 1 stars destroy a quest that has less than 100 ratings ensuring it never see's the light of day thanks to a very crappy search system. I honestly have lost all my enthusiasm.

This weekend I've been in TESO beta for the 2nd time and honestly, roll on the 4th of the 4th because I will be gone from Neverwinter without so much as a backward glance thankful that I didn't put 1 penny into this game and quite honestly have been well and truly put off by cryptic and PWE.

Sorry to be so negative.

orangefiree

I am still working on the foundry. I have not published anything recently because I have been spending most of my time polishing my current quests and reviewing the quests of others. However, I still have ten more quests planned... on my main account.

mrgiggles651

As Cryptics CEO said during a presentation on ugc in their other games prior to neverwinter's launch, most everything that gets made, gets made in the first month of release.

Also I'd like to point out that the melinden posting in this thread is not the same one as referenced in the foundry achievment thread.

say1o

I think Foundry is all I will be doing.

I am with Antonkyle. I have been in Beta from day 1, and like all the past games, I am in love. This will just feed my building addiction.

zahinder

mrgiggles651 wrote: »

As Cryptics CEO said during a presentation on ugc in their other games prior to neverwinter's launch, most everything that gets made, gets made in the first month of release.

Either you've misconstrued what he said or he's talking out of the side of his mouth, since there's only been one other game they did with UGC, and the UGC system was added well after release.

(And even if you interpret it as 'release of the UGC system,' that still isn't true for STO)

mrgiggles651

zahinder wrote: »

Either you've misconstrued what he said or he's talking out of the side of his mouth, since there's only been one other game they did with UGC, and the UGC system was added well after release.

(And even if you interpret it as 'release of the UGC system,' that still isn't true for STO)

I was incorrect, it was the COO and exec producer of neverwinter. You can watch the presentation yourself.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016471/User-Generated-Content-In-MMOs

zahinder

In any case, at least with Neverwinter, 'well, no duh.'
Most MMOs, particularly f2p ones, see a MASSIVE amount of interest and activity in the first month, and then everything drops off.

It also ignores quality. One would think that as time goes on, the folks who stick with it and keep making content might make content less quickly, but of higher quality. And that highlights the failure of the Cryptic system -- it doesn't provide any way to find the content that you want more than the vast sea of mediocrity.

melinden

Antonkyle: This community has shown you a lot of support by reviewing and commenting on your quests. You have had a quest featured by Cryptic and received a very rare Spotlight trailer.

Additionally, often if you have to apologize for an action as you make it---that is a sign you should reconsider that action as you already know it will be harmful in some way.

It harms you in NO WAY that others still enjoy this game. If you don't care for it anymore and you have found something else, I'm happy for you. I know many people who are very excited for Elder Scrolls.

But do go. Don't look back, as you've said you would not. Throwing trash into the playground of the people who have supported you? I don't think that is how you want us to remember you, is it?

kirksplat

zahinder wrote: »

(And even if you interpret it as 'release of the UGC system,' that still isn't true for STO)

Well, it kind of is true in the long run. The first six months of STO's release was kind of a golden time. There was so much interest and even dev support initially in the first 6 months. Then the devs left to come here, and the devs that remained pushed an update that broke the Foundry and botched 90% of our missions for months, iirc.

A lot of folks are discouraged, especially when only like maybe 10% of the game's community plays foundry, and probably half of that number do it for nefarious purposes.

There is actually a podcast devoted to the STO Foundry that is on something like its 140th episode. And the hosts are like, "Why bother?" It really is like spending a ton of time building a web page that has no chance, since Google doesn't have a page 2, page 3, page 4, etc.

I'm probably one of the most well-known Foundry authors, and some of my missions don't get more than 1 or 2 reviews a month, in spite of doing everything I can outside of the game to promote them. And probably the only thing sustaining that play rate is the fact that I have a spotlighted mission.

Some very bad creative decisions have had very negative long-term effects. I'm quite surprised that every single one of those mistakes found a happy home in NW, despite our yelling on forums for like 2 years. That really is baffling to me.

kirksplat

melinden wrote: »

Throwing trash into the playground of the people who have supported you? I don't think that is how you want us to remember you, is it?

Good grief. You guys have earned a reputation for being kind of nasty on forums, but this is a pretty divisive and tactical piece of slung mud.

If someone is legitimately really angry, it's probably because they care very much about their work, the wasted potential of the tool, and the way the community has been treated. Some of the folks who care the most are angry because they care.

antonkyle

melinden wrote: »

Antonkyle: This community has shown you a lot of support by reviewing and commenting on your quests. You have had a quest featured by Cryptic and received a very rare Spotlight trailer.

But do go. Don't look back, as you've said you would not. Throwing trash into the playground of the people who have supported you? I don't think that is how you want us to remember you, is it?

I didn't say anything about the community and support is a two way street, as much as I have been given I have given back. I'm not sure what your problem is, and I don't know what trash I have thrown. I simply said I will be moving on because the developers fail to fix problems that have been going since beta.

Am I not allowed to question why most of my favorite authors have left because I have been featured? Can I not question why things are not fixed because I have a spotlight trailer? I was only featured because I came 2nd in a quest popularity contest that few entered, I was spotlighted because it was one of the most played quest this side of the release date. If I am to thank anyone it is the players and yes the good people that supported me, most of which have gone now by the way.

mrgiggles651

I remember the guy who wrote the Foundry manual that was stickied by Cryptic (its still the there if you look in the faq thread). He publicly quit over foundry issues that he blamed the devs for. Those things he identified are still present.

guitarzan698

I would just like to know.. is anyone playing our work other than the authors themselves? Anyone?

mrgiggles651

guitarzan698 wrote: »

I would just like to know.. is anyone playing our work other than the authors themselves? Anyone?

Well, I suppose people could report on their play numbers. Personally I only play foundry missions that get posted in the foundry forums, as I view making a post for your foundry a statement of confidence that the quest has at least a minimal standard of quality. I dont vote down for bugs unless there are serious issues that should have been caught. As an author I can guess how other people implemented things and I know when something can only be done via a bugg workaround thing (like timers) that may not always work reliably.

zahinder

I republished my three quests two weeks ago.

Predictably, have gotten precisely zero plays since.

Incentive to make more quests when I have to constantly put in a huge effort for every single play: 0

beckylunatic

guitarzan698 wrote: »

I would just like to know.. is anyone playing our work other than the authors themselves? Anyone?

At least one person.... (hi)

antonkyle

guitarzan698 wrote: »

I would just like to know.. is anyone playing our work other than the authors themselves? Anyone?

The simple answer is yes. Foundry quests are played everyday by nearly everyone.

The problem is, only the exposed quests get played by the player base. The idea is every new quest's appears at the top of the new tab once it has 5 ratings. It will get an adjusted rating based on these ratings and if enough people think it is good and vote that way it will appear on the best tab. If not it will get lower and lower on the list until it is gone.

Here lies the problem, people vote low ratings because of things like no loot, quest trails. Because the adjusted rating system works in a way that will keep the most played quests top it is almost impossible to make the best tab without a feature.

So in answer a very small number of quests get thousands of plays while the rest, 90%+ do not. Quality has no part in this. I know this to be true because I was lucky enough to get a feature and because of this I get plays. I know that while my quests are good, they are not elite, they are not in the top 10% when it comes to quality. I have watched much better quests fail and vanish.

guitarzan698

I took some time this afternoon and did a google search of 'free mmorpg'.. on every list that appeared, this game sat at or near the top of the list. Ok.. so I read about 5 or 6 reviews. Basically, they all said nearly the same thing. Namely, the foundry and the action based combat system are the bomb. These two features in particular are what will make this game a winner. Unfortunately, the devs have completely forgotten that the foundry is one of the major attractions to this game. In my humble opinion, this is quite sad. The foundry is what will give this game it's longevity. I could go on .. but I really don't see the point. If the devs don't see the value, why should the general community of players?

mrgiggles651

guitarzan698 wrote: »

I took some time this afternoon and did a google search of 'free mmorpg'.. on every list that appeared, this game sat at or near the top of the list. Ok.. so I read about 5 or 6 reviews. Basically, they all said nearly the same thing. Namely, the foundry and the action based combat system are the bomb. These two features in particular are what will make this game a winner. Unfortunately, the devs have completely forgotten that the foundry is one of the major attractions to this game. In my humble opinion, this is quite sad. The foundry is what will give this game it's longevity. I could go on .. but I really don't see the point. If the devs don't see the value, why should the general community of players?

Game journalism is mostly regurgitated dev PR. While a dev may not be paying directly for an article, whom do you thinks advertises on game sites, yup, the publishers. There are well known cases where game sites get cut off from access to upcoming games if they do not give current games ratings higher than X.

Basically, dont trust anything you read on game sites or in game mags.

guitarzan698

Quite true, but my point was that we all seem to be in agreement about the foundry being one of the best features to this game. My concern is that the devs have really given no reason for the general population of player to play these foundry creations. In fact, with all the nerfing that has been done (in the name of stopping those that would exploit this system), there is no reason for anyone to play these quests at all....

antonkyle

guitarzan698 wrote: »

Quite true, but my point was that we all seem to be in agreement about the foundry being one of the best features to this game. My concern is that the devs have really given no reason for the general population of player to play these foundry creations. In fact, with all the nerfing that has been done (in the name of stopping those that would exploit this system), there is no reason for anyone to play these quests at all....

I doubt the foundry pays the bills to be honest. The author community is tiny, It may be a selling point but as you already pointed out it does that with success already. I really doubt the player base is unhappy with it.

Priority number one from a money making point of view should be PVP and more end game content. Which is what they are doing. That will keep the players happy. They missed the boat with PVP, this game could have been huge in the PVP world but they will struggle to convince people that they have improved and there are some PVP based games due out very soon, but who knows?

The foundry will stay as it is, they will drip-feed a small number of new assets and ignore the big problems. It's a shame, but hey, expect the worst, right!

One of the things that work against the foundry is the simple fact that this game does not attract people interested in stories and Lore. It breaks it's own D&D Lore for a start. The system is designed as a gear grind. People that want interesting stories do not want a quest path and a cut up map with segregated instances.

What I don't understand is why Neverwinter forces people to do it all. Take WOW as an example, it did not take long before they noticed that the same people did not want to PVP and quest and raid. They are three very separate type of gamers. So they separated them all. You could mix it up as much as you liked but you could also go from 10 to the level cap and onwards by just doing one. (not raiding, but that comes with dungeons.) That is what makes it a success. Not the crappy graphics or the rubbish combat system. People can play what they want to play, simple.

The foundry could be much better if it offered rewards for playing them but PVP is the same and PVE also.

zahinder

I think the Neverwinter audience is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

They've made a game with the NWN brand, and then removed pretty much every opportunity to be creative and tell stories over a rather typical theme park progression and gear-focused game.

And, surprise surprise, the population that exists now is largely interested in theme park progression and getting new gear and doesn't care much about anything else.

They chose not to leverage the NWN brand effectively, so hey, they got what they asked for.

mrgiggles651

They tried to have it both ways with NWN. Putting it in Neverwinter and sticking the Neverwinter name on there, doing lots of PR based on that (the Neverwinter podcast that has interviewed some foundry authors also had a sit down interview with Cryptic's CEO), letting a good number of nwn authors into foundry beta etc. But then anytime anyone tries calling this "nwn3" or something along those lines, mods (and pre-release, cryptic itself) step in and insist it's not nwn3. Which it's not of course.

For people interested in rp, the telling moment was before release when one gaming site was interviewing a cryptic employee and asked them the seemingly innocuous question "What does Neverwinter Online have for role players?" A pretty obvious question when your game says Neverwinter on it. The cryptic pr person's answer, "It's got... uhh... Neverwinter." Oops.

Even simple rp requests in the forum like having all taverns be single instance (like the Moonstone Mask already is, and has been since beta), havnt happened.

elewyndyl

zahinder wrote: »

I think the Neverwinter audience is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

They've made a game with the NWN brand, and then removed pretty much every opportunity to be creative and tell stories over a rather typical theme park progression and gear-focused game.

And, surprise surprise, the population that exists now is largely interested in theme park progression and getting new gear and doesn't care much about anything else.

They chose not to leverage the NWN brand effectively, so hey, they got what they asked for.

Well my take on this that I like themepark and gear progression.

That said sure I support the idea that Foundry could get more content say you could create more custom content. Finally I don't hate story. For example Nevewinter main campaign and both expansions could have more story.

PvP is still lacking. They said PvP will get more content. I assumed immediately they were talking about PvP Battlegrounds or other forms of PvP example Capture the Flag. What do we get? We get matchmaking(I never wished matchmaking) and leaver penalty(ok to me). They also add a new stat. Fine even if you like all the changes(subjective taste) what NEW has been added to PvP really? Nothing after Gauntlgrym. Thank god Gauntlgrym does not have matchmaking.

If I would get the lead of development I would tell:
A. Make more content for PvP, battlegrounds and other types of PvP example Capture The Flag.
B. Make Foundry update so Foundry creators get more freedom to create custom content etc.

On next monday I am finally DONE with boon grinding with all my 3 max level characters. This game does not need a new expansion that focus on boon grinding with virtually almost no story and instead please make more content to PvP and Foundry.

aarkangel

melinden wrote: »

Antonkyle: This community has shown you a lot of support by reviewing and commenting on your quests. You have had a quest featured by Cryptic and received a very rare Spotlight trailer.

Additionally, often if you have to apologize for an action as you make it---that is a sign you should reconsider that action as you already know it will be harmful in some way.

It harms you in NO WAY that others still enjoy this game. If you don't care for it anymore and you have found something else, I'm happy for you. I know many people who are very excited for Elder Scrolls.

But do go. Don't look back, as you've said you would not. Throwing trash into the playground of the people who have supported you? I don't think that is how you want us to remember you, is it?

because the community of a f2p game run by one of the most greedy companies I've ever seen remembering you fondly is really an achievement? I fail to see the problem with somebody getting sick of PW and their ****.

IN RESPONSE TO THE OP:

I still use the foundry every so often, mainly when Im bored. But it could be so much more if the devs sat down and dedicated time to working on it. I've only recently gotten back into neverwinter, but I doubt ill get back on again after TESO comes out, at least not any time soon.

I barely play now, mainly because I have a WoW sub going. If I'm going to play a game, I'll play one I'm paying for. Neverwinter is fun, but it still needs work, especially the foundry.

antonkyle

elewyndyl wrote: »

If I would get the lead of development I would tell:
A. Make more content for PvP, battlegrounds and other types of PvP example Capture The Flag.
B. Make Foundry update so Foundry creators get more freedom to create custom content etc.

I could not agree more with A, PVP should be the stand out feature imo, the combat system is very good.
With B I think it's more about spreading the plays and giving players more incentive to bother with foundry quests.

I think the way forward is a reward system and a clear and concise author subscription page with optional links to like minded authors.

Back this with a working search system, the One in place would be OK if the numbers meant anything. If I search Lore it stands to reason that I would want my list to be all the quests with the most lore tags and not just the same list as the best tab because there are people that don't understand what a tag system is or how it works and will tag anything to everything.

How the current search function passed QC is beyond me. If I had to design a search system to intentionally irritate people it would be the one in use in Neverwinters foundry. It must be a wind up.

hercooles130uscg

I have not completed my second quest for several reasons. Mainly, the foundry itself is just so frustrating. I spend about an hour or two in it, and most of that time is loading, or dealing with lag, especially with the dialogue editor, which has not seen any dev love since the game was released and is still rampant with lag and bugs that make it hard to do lots of dialogue.

Then there is the fact I stopped playing the main game completely. I never even got a character above 40, as I spent all my time in the Foundry or doing other Foundry quests. The main game itself has fallen into such a giant free to play pile of **** hole with its 50 thousand currencies, spam in your face attempts to buy zen at every turn, that it is turning me off to the entire name Neverwinter.

I have been here for a long time. I came to the forums every day, wrote lots of stuff, gave my ideas, promoted myself, anything to get a spot in the Foundry alpha, and when I got in, I continued to participate, to help make the foundry better...

and the entire Alpha and into release was just one giant headache, realizing PWE did not give a **** about the Foundry, and only kept it in the game because the work had already been done by Cryptic before PWE bought them, and it would be a useful selling point, something different they could put in the Feature List on the back of the box.

The Foundry needs to be removed from this pile of HAMSTER game and given it's own dedicated life somewhere FAR away from Perfect **** Entertainment.

Those are my honest thoughts.

kirksplat

hercooles130uscg wrote: »

The Foundry needs to be removed from this pile of HAMSTER game and given it's own dedicated life somewhere FAR away from Perfect **** Entertainment.

Those are my honest thoughts.

As a STO author, I tell myself that I'm making missions that represent what STO should be like, not grindfest cashgrab story smory mess that it mostly is now. So, I'm making missions for a different Star Trek game, and a small minority of players are playing that different game.

Plus, nobody is in charge of our foundry. At least you guys might have somebody in charge.

mrgiggles651

Foundry is lacking in attention, as evidence the azamat thread was up for a month before mod locking due to content of the original post in the thread. I know that's just community mods but I remember Sominator said he gathered feedback from the mods on what was important to the community, which he then passed on to devs. So if that thread goes a month before lock the mods do not appear to be spending much time in the foundry forums, resulting in Sominator not getting feedback on Foundry thinvs which he could then pass back to devs. End result: devs not hearing the cries.