There is a built in cap on aoe targets. It's agro. No need to Nerf the CW any more than what's been done. HR's are running into this and getting pummeled. The difference for HR is, they have better armor and armor buff.
Ok, i've done that dozens of times too, but what you *can* do and what you *should* do are different things.
I mean, getting all the aggro (fighting with a crippling cap on our main AoE taunt, every time I use it it lands on adds that are already following me, instead of adds that are chasing the healer, cap can stay, but the skill should be "intelligent" and land first on targets that are not already aggroed), and running around like a girl, occasionally poking the boss, is not something we should ever do as fighters. We should be able to withstand some damage and hold our ground, occasionally repositioning to avoid big damage, but in any boss fight my guard is down in fractions of a second because zounds of adds. And I have invested a lot of feats/powers to keep that shield up.
The fact the game forces us to do so because there are no alternatives (i.e. killing adds on a insta-respawn timer) is plain wrong.
The fact that you seem to only use Enforced Threat as your "main" aggro ability means you're one dimensional. Learn to Use Threatening rush, Tab ability, Knight's valor, and synergize those abilities with Lunging strike, Frontline surge, and Iron warrior. I think what you want a GF to be is a boring easymode tank. Right now, GF requires the most situational awareness and skill out of all the classes in order to hold aggro completely, with the upcoming buff with enforced threat, lunging strike, and frontline surge, holding aggro will be a lot easier. But if all you want to use to hold aggro is enforced threat, then sorry but L2P.
And no, you should NOT be able to stand toe to toe with 15-20 adds without your whole team supporting you.
The fact that you seem to only use Enforced Threat as your "main" aggro ability means you're one dimensional. Learn to Use Threatening rush, Tab ability, Knight's valor, and synergize those abilities with Lunging strike, Frontline surge, and Iron warrior. I think what you want a GF to be is a boring easymode tank. Right now, GF requires the most situational awareness and skill out of all the classes in order to hold aggro completely, with the upcoming buff with enforced threat, lunging strike, and frontline surge, holding aggro will be a lot easier. But if all you want to use to hold aggro is enforced threat, then sorry but L2P.
And no, you should NOT be able to stand toe to toe with 15-20 adds without your whole team supporting you.
Since accurate targeting is, well, next to impossible with many targets close together (more often than not you actually hit other things that happen to, somehow, have a hitbox spanning the whole battlefield), targeted abilities are often useless (if not bad, when you hit the boss instead of the add near him for absolutely no reason and cause him to move away from your DPS).
I agree I should NOT be able to stand toe to toe with 15-20 adds, but mainly because there shouldn't ever be that many in a boss fight. The whole combat system simply doesn't scale enough.
What I do NOT agree is that a fighter should be constantly running around with a train of mobs behind. The GF was NOT designed for mobility, in fact we are the slowest class with absolutely no skills to run away (only some skills to close distance with mobs, something we must try to avoid instead, because getting stunned/proned even once can kill us when 20 adds are chasing us)...
The fact that you seem to only use Enforced Threat as your "main" aggro ability means you're one dimensional. Learn to Use Threatening rush, Tab ability, Knight's valor, and synergize those abilities with Lunging strike, Frontline surge, and Iron warrior. ...
We should be aware that not all tanks can use Threatening Rush, like me, some does not have it due to the Paragon Path; tanks without it have to do their job without.
We have to be aware that not all tanks can use Threatening Rush, like me, some does not have it due to the Paragon Path; tanks without it have to do their job without.
Your poor choices are not our fault. Swordmaster is a poor choice for dps and tanking for GF/GWF.
Your poor choices are not our fault. Swordmaster is a poor choice for dps and tanking for GF/GWF.
I cannot agree on that, I have less problems with it in terms of tanking, and there are other ways for a Guardian Fighter to keep aggro, but I like both and tanking is possible with both Paragon paths.
Mind you, I do not want to hear what you call poor or good as long it has no explanation and -- it is not the topic of this thread.
Your poor choices are not our fault. Swordmaster is a poor choice for dps and tanking for GF/GWF.
The mere fact that there are "good choices" and "poor choices" rather than "alternate choices" means that a class is not well thought and balanced. If there is a path that takes a GF to be unsuitable for tanking (but also doesn't make it good at anything else), something is plain wrong...
The mere fact that there are "good choices" and "poor choices" rather than "alternate choices" means that a class is not well thought and balanced. If there is a path that takes a GF to be unsuitable for tanking (but also doesn't make it good at anything else), something is plain wrong...
Not really, no.
What you're saying is an equivalent to making a wheel out of a triangle, comparing it to circular ones, and then complaining the road system is unfair.
GFs can be tanky when built to tank. If they go out of the loom and do something else, that's fine. More variety, different type of GF, no problem. Just don't expect people to treat you as a real tank, because, you're not. That's the meaning of "choice" here. People choose to be not tanky by their own will, and then they complain their choice is not tanky.
How stupid is that?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Not really terribly accurate. This game has a lot of balance issues, with virtually every class having a good smattering of feats & powers that are not 'alternative choices', they're actively bad.
What you're saying is an equivalent to making a wheel out of a triangle, comparing it to circular ones, and then complaining the road system is unfair.
GFs can be tanky when built to tank. If they go out of the loom and do something else, that's fine. More variety, different type of GF, no problem. Just don't expect people to treat you as a real tank, because, you're not. That's the meaning of "choice" here. People choose to be not tanky by their own will, and then they complain their choice is not tanky.
How stupid is that?
I've made probably the most solid defense-wise tank possible, with +guard, +def/deflect, +AC and +dmg mitigation feats and powers. Besides that, i can't actually keep my guard/shield up even for a second in most boss battles. Either the class is broken, or boss battles are.
But we are going well OT here. The point is, some of our fundamental tools are broken or do not scale well with Epic dungeons design because of functional limits.
Here's the thing, pretty much everyone except CW's build for single target. Even GWF seem to use Sure Strike in add heavy dungeons because they want to burn the boss, wipe, and then get the treasure without ever even fighting the 100 add's the boss eventually spawned.
The other problem is the lead-up to level 60 dungeons is a game designed for a simpleton with zero difficulty; then once you hit 60 the game gets slightly harder and people don't know what to do. On top of that, respec's being fairly difficult to purchase without real cash leads to a ton of broken characters with stupid players who can't listen to instructions. I.E. lots of losses.
Whenever there's a GWF who actually uses WMS/Reaping Strike paired with my Renegade MoF CW the add's melt. That's in T2, I'm still a bit under geared for full CN runs, but frankly the general player base being unrepentantly terrible at the game is the problem. This is, in general, caused by the absolutely rampant glitching and exploiting dungeon bosses.
I can barely even get into a Spellplague dungeon where people don't insist as a group that you glitch the bosses. I know it can't just be me having that experience, and it really makes it difficult to judge if anyone on the team is competent enough to even try on the second boss. And ToS? Please, it's a glitch every time I get to the end boss. I don't want to do it that way, I really don't, but it seems the community has spoken. They all want to cheat for money.
Oh, I will say this though. My 10k CW almost always finishes the dungeon, even with a crappy team and no exploits. I'm convinced that a good CW player is absolutely required for most T2 dungeons. Probably the reason why there are 30 million of them and why none of them know how to play.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
What you're saying is an equivalent to making a wheel out of a triangle, comparing it to circular ones, and then complaining the road system is unfair.
GFs can be tanky when built to tank. If they go out of the loom and do something else, that's fine. More variety, different type of GF, no problem. Just don't expect people to treat you as a real tank, because, you're not. That's the meaning of "choice" here. People choose to be not tanky by their own will, and then they complain their choice is not tanky.
How stupid is that?
Well, one of those tanky builds is around said Paragon path and it is usable and viable for tanking and there is something wrong for sure as the Paragon path introduced as the damage path is able to be more tanky than the actual tank path. There is rather no option to turn the Guardian Fighter into a competitive damage dealer, so maybe the damage path is just another tank path.
Comments
The fact that you seem to only use Enforced Threat as your "main" aggro ability means you're one dimensional. Learn to Use Threatening rush, Tab ability, Knight's valor, and synergize those abilities with Lunging strike, Frontline surge, and Iron warrior. I think what you want a GF to be is a boring easymode tank. Right now, GF requires the most situational awareness and skill out of all the classes in order to hold aggro completely, with the upcoming buff with enforced threat, lunging strike, and frontline surge, holding aggro will be a lot easier. But if all you want to use to hold aggro is enforced threat, then sorry but L2P.
And no, you should NOT be able to stand toe to toe with 15-20 adds without your whole team supporting you.
Since accurate targeting is, well, next to impossible with many targets close together (more often than not you actually hit other things that happen to, somehow, have a hitbox spanning the whole battlefield), targeted abilities are often useless (if not bad, when you hit the boss instead of the add near him for absolutely no reason and cause him to move away from your DPS).
I agree I should NOT be able to stand toe to toe with 15-20 adds, but mainly because there shouldn't ever be that many in a boss fight. The whole combat system simply doesn't scale enough.
What I do NOT agree is that a fighter should be constantly running around with a train of mobs behind. The GF was NOT designed for mobility, in fact we are the slowest class with absolutely no skills to run away (only some skills to close distance with mobs, something we must try to avoid instead, because getting stunned/proned even once can kill us when 20 adds are chasing us)...
We should be aware that not all tanks can use Threatening Rush, like me, some does not have it due to the Paragon Path; tanks without it have to do their job without.
Your poor choices are not our fault. Swordmaster is a poor choice for dps and tanking for GF/GWF.
I cannot agree on that, I have less problems with it in terms of tanking, and there are other ways for a Guardian Fighter to keep aggro, but I like both and tanking is possible with both Paragon paths.
Mind you, I do not want to hear what you call poor or good as long it has no explanation and -- it is not the topic of this thread.
The mere fact that there are "good choices" and "poor choices" rather than "alternate choices" means that a class is not well thought and balanced. If there is a path that takes a GF to be unsuitable for tanking (but also doesn't make it good at anything else), something is plain wrong...
Not really, no.
What you're saying is an equivalent to making a wheel out of a triangle, comparing it to circular ones, and then complaining the road system is unfair.
GFs can be tanky when built to tank. If they go out of the loom and do something else, that's fine. More variety, different type of GF, no problem. Just don't expect people to treat you as a real tank, because, you're not. That's the meaning of "choice" here. People choose to be not tanky by their own will, and then they complain their choice is not tanky.
How stupid is that?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I've made probably the most solid defense-wise tank possible, with +guard, +def/deflect, +AC and +dmg mitigation feats and powers. Besides that, i can't actually keep my guard/shield up even for a second in most boss battles. Either the class is broken, or boss battles are.
But we are going well OT here. The point is, some of our fundamental tools are broken or do not scale well with Epic dungeons design because of functional limits.
The other problem is the lead-up to level 60 dungeons is a game designed for a simpleton with zero difficulty; then once you hit 60 the game gets slightly harder and people don't know what to do. On top of that, respec's being fairly difficult to purchase without real cash leads to a ton of broken characters with stupid players who can't listen to instructions. I.E. lots of losses.
Whenever there's a GWF who actually uses WMS/Reaping Strike paired with my Renegade MoF CW the add's melt. That's in T2, I'm still a bit under geared for full CN runs, but frankly the general player base being unrepentantly terrible at the game is the problem. This is, in general, caused by the absolutely rampant glitching and exploiting dungeon bosses.
I can barely even get into a Spellplague dungeon where people don't insist as a group that you glitch the bosses. I know it can't just be me having that experience, and it really makes it difficult to judge if anyone on the team is competent enough to even try on the second boss. And ToS? Please, it's a glitch every time I get to the end boss. I don't want to do it that way, I really don't, but it seems the community has spoken. They all want to cheat for money.
Oh, I will say this though. My 10k CW almost always finishes the dungeon, even with a crappy team and no exploits. I'm convinced that a good CW player is absolutely required for most T2 dungeons. Probably the reason why there are 30 million of them and why none of them know how to play.
Well, one of those tanky builds is around said Paragon path and it is usable and viable for tanking and there is something wrong for sure as the Paragon path introduced as the damage path is able to be more tanky than the actual tank path. There is rather no option to turn the Guardian Fighter into a competitive damage dealer, so maybe the damage path is just another tank path.