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elo system and new pvp gear sets
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
So first of, THANK YOU! For all the hard work you guys have done. I cant wait to test what you have instore.
I thought I would make a suggestion that maybe you guys are doing, but this would be a very cool idea!
First, for the elo system, I know its based on each persons "rating". I have played many not only computer games, but also was a very skilled chess player for many many years in which I have ALOT of experience with elo systems.
I say this with 100% certainty that it would be a mistake to NOT show each persons individual elo rating. If you DO show this, you will have ALOT of competition in pvp and people striving to have the highest elo rating and as a result of that, this game will have a MUCH better pvp base and competition base.
Second, with the individual rating system implemented, I would HIGHLY suggest that the three new gear sets you proposed should be able to be purchased based upon the elo system.
The current pvp t1 and the "lower bracket" gear you mentioned should remain not constricted by elo rating, IE everyone can get them at any time. Same with GG gear, its T2 equiv gear available to ANY person regardless of rating.
The NEW gear sets however should be unlocked by elo score. This not only gives MORE incentive to play games to increase ones elo score, not just for the rating, but for the gear too!
I would HIGHLY suggest, creating the NEW gear sets based around that idea.
Example,
If your elo rating system starts players at 800 rating, and lets say 2000+ is a VERY high elo score...
T1 current pvp gear - always available
T1 alternate pvp gear - available at 1000 elo rating (pretty easy to accomplish) Each piece has roughly the same cost as the other T1 set, just different stats.
T2 alternate pvp gear - available at say 1400 elo rating, each piece costs roughly DOUBLE the cost (in glory) of the current T1 pieces with different stats than the GG t2 gear.
T2.5 PvP gear - available at say 1800 elo rating, each piece costs somewhere around DOUBLE the T2 gear. So in the 20k+ glory range for each piece.
This gives players alot to strive for in raising elo rank and also farming glory becomes very attractive again.
I would also suggest making the T2.5 weapons include a set bonus and maybe even the T2 weapon set as well. Alot of reason people dont use the other weapons are because the loss of stats, if the T2.5 set was on par with the formorian or fallen dragon set in terms of stats/set bonus but was revolved around pvp with tenacity included it would be much more attractive.
A TYPE of system with elo rating and gear choice above is what will REALLY drive people to play pvp more, not only will elo give more fair games, but it can be a system causing people to STRIVE for the highest rating to get that good gear!
Also, glory should be MORE based upon the elo rank and who you beat versus just individual score etc in a match.
For instance, if a player elo rating 1000 beats a player rating 1400 they should get ALOT of rating AND glory.
I thought I would make a suggestion that maybe you guys are doing, but this would be a very cool idea!
First, for the elo system, I know its based on each persons "rating". I have played many not only computer games, but also was a very skilled chess player for many many years in which I have ALOT of experience with elo systems.
I say this with 100% certainty that it would be a mistake to NOT show each persons individual elo rating. If you DO show this, you will have ALOT of competition in pvp and people striving to have the highest elo rating and as a result of that, this game will have a MUCH better pvp base and competition base.
Second, with the individual rating system implemented, I would HIGHLY suggest that the three new gear sets you proposed should be able to be purchased based upon the elo system.
The current pvp t1 and the "lower bracket" gear you mentioned should remain not constricted by elo rating, IE everyone can get them at any time. Same with GG gear, its T2 equiv gear available to ANY person regardless of rating.
The NEW gear sets however should be unlocked by elo score. This not only gives MORE incentive to play games to increase ones elo score, not just for the rating, but for the gear too!
I would HIGHLY suggest, creating the NEW gear sets based around that idea.
Example,
If your elo rating system starts players at 800 rating, and lets say 2000+ is a VERY high elo score...
T1 current pvp gear - always available
T1 alternate pvp gear - available at 1000 elo rating (pretty easy to accomplish) Each piece has roughly the same cost as the other T1 set, just different stats.
T2 alternate pvp gear - available at say 1400 elo rating, each piece costs roughly DOUBLE the cost (in glory) of the current T1 pieces with different stats than the GG t2 gear.
T2.5 PvP gear - available at say 1800 elo rating, each piece costs somewhere around DOUBLE the T2 gear. So in the 20k+ glory range for each piece.
This gives players alot to strive for in raising elo rank and also farming glory becomes very attractive again.
I would also suggest making the T2.5 weapons include a set bonus and maybe even the T2 weapon set as well. Alot of reason people dont use the other weapons are because the loss of stats, if the T2.5 set was on par with the formorian or fallen dragon set in terms of stats/set bonus but was revolved around pvp with tenacity included it would be much more attractive.
A TYPE of system with elo rating and gear choice above is what will REALLY drive people to play pvp more, not only will elo give more fair games, but it can be a system causing people to STRIVE for the highest rating to get that good gear!
Also, glory should be MORE based upon the elo rank and who you beat versus just individual score etc in a match.
For instance, if a player elo rating 1000 beats a player rating 1400 they should get ALOT of rating AND glory.
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If you implment new pvp game types and new pvp maps in the future, you are going to want a system in place to not only keep players determined to play and get glory, but also strive to keep pushing up their elo rating.
That said, I think making the new pvp gear sets harder to obtain via elo rating will increase that drive to play.
A perfect example was when Mod 2 came out, ALOT of players pvpd to get their blood raven skull artifact. I personally REALLY liked that it cost 24k glory. It forced alot of people to really farm PvP.
That is what I would ask out of the new BIS pvp gear. If you make a T2 and T2.5 equiv, it should cost ALOT of glory.
I wouldnt even be opposed to having each T2.5 piece cost 30k glory+, yes 30k! That gives players ALOT to work towards....
Just think about how long you want it to take to be able to afford the entire BIS PVP gear... I know games that would take WEEKS of farming just to get 1 piece, and I would really encourage you to mimic that here..
I don't get it.
What do you have against being matched with people of same skill?
We are asking for matchmaking for months.
Everything you have suggested is spot on
Regardless though, tons of people have been asking for a rating system. Simply displaying the elo score to the players would solve that without hardly any extra work since it is how they are implementing matchmaking.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
ELO can work for individuals and team queues - I believe League of Legends does this.
A easy to implement (although not the most efficient) system would be to ensure that competing 5-men teams had the same composition so that if one team had a group of 3 and group of two, then then the other would have the exact same composition.
It would obviously be ideal to not only match up comp AND size of group that Ques together, I worry if they do too much though youll never get a match.
Obviously ONE of the aspects needs to be valued less if you cant find a matchup.
So out of these three things:
1) elo rating
2) Group size( people who que together in a group)
3) Group Comp
I think that should be the "priority system". Or maybe even swap the first two.
First it takes your X man group and finds other X man groups out there, then finds the closest elo rating, then fills the gaps with other players.
Either 2 3 man team and 2 2man team get pairs.
2 4 man teams + 1 pug on each
2 5 man teams etc.....
But then you get into group comp as well.
If a 4 man team = GF/GWF/CW/TR
The other = DC/CW/GF/GWF
And the only two comparable elo ratings are TRs... then that doesnt create even groups, but its even NUMBER (team size) and even elo rating....
Or they could find a DC for team 1 and a TR for team 2 but what if it cant find a similar elo rating for a DC? Do they value elo or comp first?
They are already coming out with the elo matchmaking system. They are already coming out with more gear and have said it will be multiple tier and my guess multiple pricing. The only thing I would ask is that not only better gear costs more but has a "requirement"... I think its bogus when you make the BIS gear easily farmable by everyone....
So if you dont like it, propose a better system based around what they are already coming out with and see what happens.
I am really happy about this and cant wait to see it on preview.
For sure its gonna bring much life to the current state of the game.
All the class changes and balance implementations are being fairly reasonable and logical.
BUT ,
As ayroux mentioned above , there will be 1 window which i do not see how its gonna be fixed
-Team Compositions...As most of you know some team compositions just cant be handled.So if a premade team queues with lets say 2GF/2GWF/1DC against lets say a rainbow one- how will this be balanced and fun for the 2nd team ?!.
By not paying attention to this serious issue and pushing forward this good but not perfect system you will have a higher rank complain and the PvP community will get ''on edge'' because of inner-game drama that this will cause.
So please think about this issue and lets make the game even better !
Of course there is the in game voice communication more people might make use of if their rating is on the line.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Most of us are waiting for more then 7 Months for this PvP issue to get solved ....
....I would be more then happy to wait few extra minutes in queue if that means ill get a fun match.
The only real way to address these types of comps is to improve interclass synergy while downplaying common class synergy. For instance, Student of the Sword, 3 stack = 15% more damage taken against damage from anyone) debuff for GWFs stacks. this is fine for PvE because it makes getting parties together easier. For pvp though, it means there is no real detriment to stacking the same class.
This is just damage synergies, it does not take into account practice synergies. It doesn't take into account a burst TR does not work well with a GF's control because of the knockback involved with it. But 2 GFs work great with it since they can both close the gap easily and also ping pong people back and forth.
I expect people to abuse the system everyway they can. For many, the rating will be more important than even matches. Expect a lot of QQ regarding class balance and comp to happen if matchmaking with ratings go live. I don't have an issue with it, because it will highlight what aspects really do need to be balanced. As long as cryptic is ready for it.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
An extra few minutes is one thing. Waiting 30 minutes to an hour is another.
I would be concerned that Neverwinter doesn;t currently have the numbers to support a qeue with too many variables or too many different types of qeues. I would love to see a solo only qeue, an open solo/partial team qeue, and a full 5 man qeue. Can our numbers currently support that?
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
...Lets not get into silly arguements,
On the pick hours you can see #110+ Instances on x2 maps , thats 220 by 10(players in instance) equals rughtly 2200 player PvPing at a certain minute.... make your conclusion from this
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
MY RECOMMENDATION:
Create TWO Que systems:
1) Ranked Que.
2) Unranked Que (what we have now) - no longer awards as much glory (like 1/2 to 1/3rd the glory), more for pure sport. Needs to maintain some reward but this shouldnt be the ideal way to farm glory.
When you que in a group of X it will FIRST look for other groups with X players, THEN it looks for ratings and THEN looks for class breakdown.
So what that would look like:
You are in a party with 3 players and Que. FIRST it ALL the groups of 3 players, THEN it picks the group with the closest rating. Now you have 6 people in the "pool"
Next it goes on the market at looks for TWO teams of TWO that are both within a similar range of rating. If nothing is within say 10% rating, it drops to look for FOUR individual players with a similar rating. If none, it broadens the range to say 15-20% and goes back to teams of two then individual till it fills the slots.
Either way you end up with 10 players all similar rating. Say, TWO teams of 3 on each side and TWO teams of 2 (on on each side).
On the teams of two, it looks at the group comp of both teams and tries to organize it so there is the LEAST amount of "doubling up".
Team A: GWF/GF/TR
Team B: GWF/CW/TR
Team C: CW/HR
Team
Something LIKE this would pit Team A and C versus Team B and D for two rainbow parties. Obviously doubling will never be avoided in some cases but this would be closest to ideal.
Teams of 4 are ALWAYS pairs against teams of 4 and then TWO pugs are selected with similar rating and with class factored in.
Teams of 5 are ALWAYS matched with teams of 5.
Its basically a Que at your own risk. If you want to que with 4 players, it may take longer to find a game than if you que with 2 or 3.
If you que with a full premade, it will wait until you find another premade.... If you solo Q- youll really end up anywhere BUT! Take heart! Itll be based upon your rating so you wont just get rolled...
THAT is the best system for fairness I can think of honestly.
Sure it creates longer wait times, but it will be the most fair games from what I can really see....
If you dont wanna wait, go que in unranked que. If you want a ranked match that is somewhat fair... Pick your party and que up.
Now you are not hindered if you only have two friends who like to pvp with, you can ensure youll get matched against another team of 3. If its just you and a friend, youll either be in a group with 3 people as a team, or put with another group of 2 + 1 pug. Either way it:
1) Looks for group SIZE
2) THEN looks for similar rating
3) THEN looks for class makeup.
Now its on the user to try and create a good group, sure a troll group of 4 GWFs might end up pitted against a rainbow comp but thats the risk of having a 4 man group... Cant honestly avoid it.
Or properly balance classes like in that other MMO, so even a lousy CWx5 comp will have about 50% chance to win against DC+4xGWF comp
Sure this will take time, yet it's pretty much better in long term compared to restricting comps and so on.
Of course, in the end someone will discover an OP comp with OP classes/specs, and most top PvPers will run that for a while, than it will be balanced, and then there will be another "ideal" comp etc.
This is why PvP is a never-ending balancing effort from the devs.
Unfortunately, thats why you just gotta develop a slightly more restricting system that is more fair for everyone.
Like forcing similar que-d groups then based upon rank and group size to pair...
Create less incentive to run total troll/premade comps of 4/5 since it will force other 4/5 man groups at that point, meaning probably a much longer que timer... Its the only way I see to make it work.
Out of the three:
1) rating
2) size
3) class
You have to create a priority system. The two most logical to me seem to be probably size/rating over class.
You can match up classes/rating but not group size and youll just get premades wrecking everything.
Match up class/size and itll be really hard to get similar "skilled" players (ie rating) involved and probably have unmatched skill/players in games.
Match up party size/rating and now its on the party MAKER to make a good group.... So then the responsibility of class falls on the individual rather than the system to support it....
Only way I can see it working...
I think the best part about focusing on group SIZE and then RATING is that you feel free to be able to play with who you want and not feel pressured into having to have a full premade anytime you want to play ranked games.
If you have two friends online, you can que knowing it will be a similar team (atleast with rating and number of players que-ing together) so you wont have to worry about a mis-matched premade versus your "partial"
Ideally it would match up all three points but I dont see how it could consistently match up class with rating and group size. I already think that over time youll just have a handful of people playing against eachother anyways.
I can tell you right now though, if you dont take into consideration premades and other large groups que-ing against solo players or even small partial premades, the entire rank system wont work, since premades SHOULD be able to beat any pug....
If higher ranked players get better gear, then people will cheat the system. Elo is very very easy to cheat.
This is also why Elo should probably remain hidden. We should be incented to PvP, not Elo meta-gaming.
This exactly. This is why there should be at least two different queues. One for premades and one for soloQ. Also, if there is a premade of 4 it should be able to take from maybe the high elo part of the soloQ...
P.S At least not for solo. Team/guild ELO would be fine I guess -.-
WTB Class Reroll please
They haven't released hardly any information on it yet, so I wouldn't be so quick to come to conclusions. Regardless, they may not even make your ranking available to see. The main reason they want to implement it is for matchmaking purposes.
Spoke with a DEV on PTR and he said the elo rating will definitely NOT be visible, atleast for while.
My guess may be that its never visible, however, I really think it should be someday. Would be kinda fun to see them announce it will be visible later down the road, and then people will get to see what theirs is....
I am still really anxious for the "final" pvp sets/cost etc... I keep trying to theory craft my build but seems impossible each time due to the non-final versions of sets on the PTR.
BTW, the gear LOOKS amazing! Good job there! The TR gear especially impressed me. Also great job on taking out armor pen!
I am even more excited to see what Mod 3 has in store!
Perhaps its better if they don't show score. People get too caught up in trying to be the best or be competitive enough as it is now. I am loving the way things are going so far with these changes though as well
systems like this are easy to exploit by taking only one low rating player mostly someones alt in team they mostly do this in every mmo where was system like this then u still have op players agains new and weak ppl
pug vs pug and pre made vs premade team sould work a lot better
Devs are making some great steps to NW PVP. I, for one, am glad.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I guess the point becomes then, what IS the point... If you dont have any elo rating showing, and you dont have any purpose to winning games... It becomes dull especially with no new maps/gametypes etc.
I am really excited for all the changes, especially tenacity and new gear sets! Dont get me wrong, and ALSO very excited about what Mod 3 can bring and I LOVE the DEVs are actually playing pvp with us, but at the end of the day games are always a "carrot on a stick" mentality.
Even single player games, the goal is to beat the game, thats the "carrot". In MMOs the "carrot" is often the gear chase, thats the PVE game and alot of times can be the PVP game as well.
Well, what is the "carrot" for PVP with no visable elo rating AND no gear chase? I think that is what is burning people out to be honest.
All the new stuff is AWESOME and its much needed and Im going to be hooked again once it hits live, im just really still betting it all on Mod 3. Without new maps/gametypes and the "carrot", I just dont see whats going to keep people.
Ive seen it all and been playing since OB, Ive seen the rise and fall of all the best guilds and its always the same story. Players hit top "level" in pvp, do alot of premade versus premade, stream it all, are considered the "best" then get bored and leave...
I, for one, would love something that is a driver to stay... I think new maps/gametypes will be a HUGE "carrot" in that people will want to play those over and over to get goo,d itll bring life back the the game, even foundry pvp would be HUGE!
But without a true "ranking system" or some type of "gear chase" there isnt much of a lasting factor.
Again, I dont wanna take away from the fact I am STOKED! To play with these new changes.