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How would you fix the GF?
arinathos
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 75 Arc User
I've been playing a GF since open beta. It's been my primary character until HR came along. I agree with many of the forum postings that the GF has become increasingly irrelevant in high T2 dungeons because of lack of damage and the inability to "out-threat" dps-ers.
So I'm opening this up to the GF players out there who are wiser than I am...how would you fix the GF so it becomes relevant again for pve and pvp? Be specific. I'd love to hear your answers!
So I'm opening this up to the GF players out there who are wiser than I am...how would you fix the GF so it becomes relevant again for pve and pvp? Be specific. I'd love to hear your answers!
Post edited by arinathos on
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two things more, more critical strike and least a power with distance long, I don't know, the GF throw the shield
This changes nothing for PvE as CW/GWF still out preform all other classes.
What exactly do you mean? What all did they change? Im unable to check for myself.
Not that much TBH. There is a bug fix that will stop our guard from getting broken at the first nudge, but who knows the magnitude of the effect, anyway.
There are a few solutions I've posted:
1 - Change the entire way PvE is played with MOBs being CC immune, removal of small trash and just elite mini-bosses as trash. Forcing parties to "Tank" the trash vs. zerg.
2 - Add a Hardcore Mode to all level 60 Instance that returns the dungeon with higher level mobs with greater risk & reward.
I think a combo of both would be the best option to PvE.
1. Add a shield meter that reduces like stamina
As I hold me shield up it will gradually decrease to zero (it is heavy after all), abilities and feat that boost shield regeneration (str, artifact ) will increase recharge rate
2. My sword cuts just as deep as an axe or rogue knife, let's up the weapon base damage scale
This will bring all builds up evenly and won't cause an OP for conquer spec builds who are power based and weapon damage will not be doubled just added.
3. Let the class tab MARK be a hard taunt until removed by GF
- looks like this is being address
4. Make the Tactician interrupt from feat on lunge strike interrupt MC Valindra attacks like CW can, this will give us a place in the MC fight
5. Remove animation cancellation on Threaten Rush to avoid abuse in pvp and potential nerf
6. Add a 1% crit to dex stat, will give us enough to add some dmg. Those who focus on dex (crit/defl) will need to give up con (HP/Ap gen) or str (shield meter/dmd) so it should balance out. Pure tank get crit, conq spec get some crit and hybrids are in the middle somewhere.
This game is about DPS, we are a "Tank" in name but really a more Heavy Armored DPS design to be hit more and block big hits so we can stay next to the thing being killed instead of sprinting or dodging away. So we need added DPS to be a contributor to the group in the future beside being a punching bag.
My opinion on GF changes
Its in the preview forums which doesn't require you to actually log into preview. The patch notes can be found here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?582741-Shadowmantle-PvP-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-14-20140114b-1
Classes and Balance
- Speed us up. We do everything a little too slow. Yes, were are wearing armour, but c'mon. We wield a sword nearly a third of the size of a GWFs yet we swing it in slow motion. If anything the GWF should be the one doing ''slow, satisfying" damage with his colossal two-handed greatswords and axes.
- Ability to tab & shift on the move. Coming to a stop to tab? My Cleric can pop tab on the run, a TR can go into stealth on the run, why can't I mark on the run? The ability to block while running. A man carrying a shield can raise his guard while running, why can't I? Why do I have to slow right down?
- More specifics about the shield and guard meter. Shift should be a toggle. Hit shift to bring up your guard and it stays up until you shift again or your guard meter is drained. When your shield is up you can still run and block, however, using an at-will slows you down to the present speed. Add a second guard meter. First one stops 100% of incoming damage, second one only stops 40 - 50% damage. Having to refill two meters to achieve maximum block again will still force us to manage our guard and not abuse the extra guard.
- Threat caps. Raise the limit on how many monsters we can aggro. I see this has been expanded in the previews, which is nice, so I'll see how that goes.
- Dungeon mechanic tweaks. CC-immunity for elite adds/mobs and more of these elite CC-immune adds/mobs and less worthless CC-able trash. While I believe the GF is not useless outside of power-gaming, I do believe the tortoise is really pointless outside of the worst of the worst PUGs. However, buffing the GFs built-in threat generation, increasing the amount of mobs he can pull and making it so that he is the only one capable of controlling an elite will make these nigh unkillable tortoises valuable. If the CW & DC can't control a hard-hitting elite, they will need the tortoise to lock it down. Also, add a few tough spawns to these elites in boss fights to make them more troublesome, so it is essentially a mini-boss within a boss fight. No GF and that elite plus his own spawn will annihilate your 4-man deeps crew. A tortoise controlling this wrecking crew will be the difference between a successful fight and a potential wipe. Essentially, fewer adds/mobs but much tougher ones that only a tank can control.
Bosses can also be tweaked. Give them more attacks, toughen them up and make it so that they move, with only a GF able to hold them in place. So yes, you can deeps them with 3 CWs & GWF, but they will not stay put, will hit more frequently and will hit harder. More chaos during the fight will fracture the party and with CC-immune adds roaming around, your squishy party will be in danger of being rolled over. The GF will bring control & manipulation abilities to the fight that no other class can. The GF can either lock the adds down and let the others fight a mobile fight against the boss or the GF can pin the boss down and let the GWF/TR off-tank the adds
heh... actually a heavy nerf to prone(= now they seem to be useless even in PvP) and not even noticeable buff to everything else... so... nice, GFs got a nerf, finally^_^
devs should FORGET about increasing threat generation! GF already can outthreat anything if he is playing well... and does not matter that ppl cry that GFs cant hold aggro... they can, and easily, do not turn this class into 1button tank or even more GF players will leave(or stop playing this class), and only fews who like staying and being hit will remain...
and changes should be done to game mechanics... tank is not the one cannot hold threat- tank is the one, that is UNLIKELY to be in party, just cause he is NOT NEEDED!
adding more CC immunes will change nothing, as still- GWFs can hold aggro and they are more likely to survive, so boost base survability to be at least more durable than GWFs(yes... wtf, tank is supposed to be the most durable... or i have an alternative... if a berserker guy is tanking and able to survive much better than a GF(while also dealing by far more damage)... then lets make a shield weilder to have much more damage than GWF to compensate... actually a fair exchange)... and make that CC immunes that already exist by far much more damage... like 3 times, give them more chase abilities, and remove immune on shift for every class in PvE, let it be only for PvP... then ppl will really need a tank... whats the problem?
for now we got- nerf on core abilities in PvP and buff on some abilities, that are nearly never used in PvP(faster swings on skills dont actually matter, as cooldowns did not decrease, and GF would land this skill ANYWAYS, and griffon is not used in PvE, anvil is not used on trash, actually used only on bosses(unless you are just playing for numbers to have higher overall damage in tables... but then you are not so good team player...) and faster swing will not matter, as hit will be done anyways... for PvP... again, both skills are not used- for conq- anvil damage is high... but crits with anvil on 25% targets deal high enough damage to kill a tank with full HP... griffon... you could not chain it, now maybe GFs can chain 3 times a row+ anvil at the end... but... even killing 1 tagret per minute is not enough to compensate nerf of prones...+ any CC breaker can be activated while being stunned- so it still has no effect vs GWFs...(yes, gwfs... anyways GFs cant reach HR of CW, and TR will not be visible for long enough time to make it possible to use all those skills...)
SoS... heh... a nerf^_^
kneebreaker... used only on low levels... as it has long animation, easy to dodge, weak slow, low damage... just nothing to make this skill needed... dunno... maybe make target accumulate chill stacks till reaching 6 to get frozen, double the damage, and prone after ice is broken?(joking ofc, but actually this would make a skill viable... otherwise why even bother?...)
if lunge now has no target cap- the only real buff, and still for PvE... even if interrupt(tact) is procced to all the targets hit- in PvP it will have no usage...
everything i got from this notes is- devs want to remove this class from PvP and make it a 1 button punchbag in PvE... good luck doing this, but... you know, this will only force even more players to leave GFs... then why not just remove the class? at least we will not see ppl crying in agony after each patch(and nop, im not crying... i love active tanking, and i hope to return to my GF someday... as GWFs and TRs and HRs... way too boring and easy to play both PvE and PvP... and CWs are harder than those 3 still easier than GF, but interesting at least...)(ofc, notes are not final... and most likely will be patches after this one... but if all patches will be done in this direction... it will be just not good...)
just ... FORGET about mark tab... A LOT ofsuggestions on tab are made.... just FORGET about this trash mark...
Can't say what has happened to other prone encounters but it seems you can still prone chain as before, you just can't put in the chain some cleaves or threatning rush as you were used to.
There are other buffs not listed in the patch notes I am testing.
You are aware that the gwf will also be affected by the prone change so its not actually a direct nerf to the gf but to everyone if you can consider that an actual nerf; which I don't, not really. and besides that it should have worked that way to begin with if what is said is actually done as it says it does.
Plus the changes actually look like it benefits the GF, not gimps it.
changes look like they are trying to simplify GF gameplay...
and about prone... they nerfed prone, that affects every1... but for GF it was core PvP playstyle... GWF can do everything in PvP... he can be an initiator, can be a tank, can be burst damage dealer, can be static DsP, can be warrior of prone... while GF could only be a warrior of prone burster or a meat shield... and GWF was doing both of it better...
+ GF was nice for countering and helping to burst down GWFs in chain prones, now as GWF can reduce prone duration you will not be able to chain your prones... so it was actually a HEAVY buff to SM GWF... that should NEVER EVER be done... to compensate it they should disable ability to go berserk while affected by any CC, that disables skills... or reduce DMG mitigation on that big red guy... or disable any incoming heal while he is red... or something like just removing CC immune on it... as buffing the most overpowered class in game seems like the worst idea ever...
FS can be used by GWF, so buffing GF at cost of buffing GWF... better nerf both... as GWF is already broken OP...
and if you get CC reduction over 20-25% you cant release full chain... i will say nothing about swordmaster GWFs, who can have over 40% CC reduction(GFs also can, but what can they do? no mobility, no damage, so not this much needed...)
For example, I (personally) don't really feel like a tank in either PvE or PvP. I feel like a drag. In PvP, it's all about slam-spamming. Even in my tankiest build, I don't survive in PvP. Not really. In PvP, you survive by being mobile, which GFs aren't...At all. In PvE, all that matters at the moment is DPS + CC.
What I would do to make GFs viable overall is increase their survivability. Make it so in PvP it takes either a few people to take them down quickly, or one person to take them down after a while. GF fights, IMO, should be similar to tanky PvP DC fights. The ones that scoff at your damage until you get them in the right spot with their cooldowns gone and yours up >=)
I think this could be accomplished by increasing their base HP. Their current health pool is a bit sad IMO. Then, to make them viable in PvE, have them capable of replacing a DC, by not only out-threating DPS and holding aggro, but by being able to take huge damage. And then in PvE, add more damage! Especially by bosses. I don't feel a TR/CW/HR should be able to face tank bosses. I would make bosses do damage that a GWF would shudder at, but a GF would take in stride. I personally miss being the tank class that is the last one standing when everyone else has gone down...Slowly being whittled down without getting heals and DPS taking down the baddies.
So simply, make GF tankier + make PvE content harder without a tank (Not impossible. But harder.)
I personally like the triumvirate of DPS + Heal + Tank. Not saying GF has to be only viable tank...But I think PvE content would be more fun if having a tank would make things go smoother than just stacking tons of DPS.
(Maybe even reduce GF damage so as to not have them become insanely invincible, should the consensus be that people would like to have a tankier GF as opposed to a higher DPS GF.)
It's the same class just different mechanics due to different equipment.
The chain is perfectly avaiable against any CC reduction.
The prone duration of Bull Charge has been shortened (if it really has been touched) but the knockback is still there and you can still lunge anyone right in mid air, you can also FS and right after bull charge anyone since bull charge has now a way higher range.
What you can't do is FS -> TR/mark -> cleave -> BC -> TR -> LS
You lost 2 TR and 1 cleave the chain is still there and noone can avoid it once it's started.
Moreover you don't need to TR that often since the mark is permanent so you actually lost the dmg from 2-3 at will.
The mobility of a GF is quite increased, anyone is forced to use the GG set and that set gives the 10% mov speed, the GWF set 4/4 bonus plain sux.
With the new buffs the SM Paragon is more viable than ever and I'm tempted a lot to respec on it once I'm done with my testings.
nope, man, it is the same class with WEAKER equipment(sets for GF are mostly team focused, and GWF weapon has by far higher damage on their weapon), LOWER survability, LOWER damage(and while having lower damage it also has 2 times lower crit chance), LOWER mobility... for now there is NOTHING GF can do, that GWF can't do better or at leastthe same way...
so! the question is: why do we need a class, that has no superiority in anything?
survability?- DC, GWF, TR, HR- all live longer
mobility?- they are the slowest
burst?- GWF has higher(or the same, but with higher crit chance,(so dmg is actually higher) if GWF is in tank build, and GF is conq)
TR has higher and can run away if needed, HR has higher+ he can do it from high range+ has annoying roots... CW also has higherburst...
initiation?- lol? a good HR or CW will not let you come close enough... yup, can be annoying, but ANY class can be, and all of them are more annoying...
prones?- wow 1 thing they have, and even here, GWF can do it better, as he is more mobile and has CC immunity almost 24/7...
so... actually they have something... but if you compare it to other classes, then everything is just worse...
and now, when SM GWF will be able to avoid prone chain of single GF by using 30%CC reduction passive what role will GFs have?
to be a meatshield, and actually they are not the best even here... as DC and GWF, even if you take away their mobility will have higher potential health...
and btw... most of PvP specced players have over 35k hp, and crit chance is the lowest of all... so... you need 6 crits a row to kill the squishiest target... ill tell you a secret, you dont even have 6 skills... and chance to get 6 crits a row is... slightly higher than 0...
and it is only if no1 is CCing you, but you will be CCd, so most likely you will not even reach your target...
Yes its a 2 handed sword gwfs are using bigger heavier blade means more damage.
Most of pvp have 30k+ hp? Sure maybe those who are rich enough to have that much but 5k is still irrelevant? Thats a quarter of hp each time more especially if you are conquerer. Add a tr or even a gwf and thats good game.
Hello block the cc; cc usually doesn't do a lot of shield damage anyway gwf can't block or dodge unless they use mighty leap or avalanche.
CW sure it has more damage but once caught by more than one prone they are either dead or screaming at the top of their lungs wtf. You're also talking about a ranged class designed for damage and control.
And gf sword master has the same passive and has lunging strike 45' jump so all you have to do is use it half through their range and you are in their face plus add steel defense and you can't be hit when using dailies which block increases ap and so do encounters gwfs only get ap from using encounters and dealing damage.
Ranged are equally annoying due to being ranged GWF and GF aren't deal with it.
Iron Warrior is almost the same as unstoppable for T.HP per hp lost - combined with the CC Immune daily means almost exact same thing. Add fighters recovery which heals duration almost per damage basis and GF are better at healing themselves too.
And yes the GF is a team member not a selfish gwf who only supports himself besides being able to do damage wise what a gf can do and GWF get FS from GF you're welcome.
And just about every above 10k geared gf has at least 40% DR without even trying to stack it only sentinels have that much and thats with some stacking.
Everyone only looks at each class individually and damage wise and this is wrong and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>; everything but soloing is a team sport and even that can be too for every class.
If you can't deal with it cry to your mother not on the forums. I also don't mind your post and your opinion is just as important as mine but you are wrong.
With no hit cap, the GF's DPS will improve dramatically PvE wise.
2. Decrease the percentage of guard lost while blocking damage:
This will work perfectly with the adjusted Enforced Threat because once activated, ALL the mobs that were hit by Enforced Threat will now target the GF. The GF needs to able to survive the incoming damage. For we are the distraction, while the rest of the team burns the mobs. True, this will make dungeons a bit easier, a lot simpler, but most IMPORTANTLY it will greatly increase the GF's PvE value, and will DECREASE the high demand for glitches to be exploited.
3. Set different values for guard lost when adsorbing hits between PvE and PvP:
Both of which requiring base increases (more guard meter that burns away slower). However, the percentage of PvP guard lost will be greater than PvE's. So the GF's guard won't be considered OP in PvP. The GF needs it's throne back as the TANK. As of right now, the GWF wears the crown; especially in PvP. Which is unacceptable lol.
4. Lunging Strike cone effective:
I like that idea, and because of the animation it makes good sense.
5. Decrease the animation time for Anvil of Doom, Griffin's Wrath, and Knee Breaker:
This WAS something I was going to mention, but they already did that. So there's no reason to go in dept.
6. The ability to interrupt Iron Warrior's animation:
For example, players can IMMEDIATELY guard from attacks after activating Knights Valor. The animation is cool in all, but in the heat of battle it can get players killed. Iron Warrior animation interruption is/will be NEEDED.
7. Enforced Threat claims to recover 5% of guard meter:
I have yet to see this lol. I've been in many situations where guard meter is needed or broken. And when I activate Enforced Threat, I saw nothing.
8. Perma-Mark will GREATLY help GF's distract bosses:
Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but Enforced Threat & Threatening Rush should not effect/interfere the target you perma-marked using TAB.
9. GF's gear need more HP bonuses for several reasons:
* If all my suggestions are implemented into the game, the GF will DEFINITELY need the HP boost for PvE.
* GWF's should NOT be able to house more HP than the TANK. So the way I see it, this can be solved in several ways. Either put HP on every set of gear for GF, or increase the amount of HP given from Constitution, or decrease the total amount of HP the GWF can obtain and give the TANK the ability to have 3-10k more. Depending on PWE decisions and player's builds, the Guardian Fighter aka the TANK will be the most time consuming/difficult to kill in both PvE & PvP, and that's how it should be.
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Honestly, the GF's power/base damage is pretty decent. For both PvE & PvP. So in order to NOT make us over powered for PvP. DO NOT increase our natural damage output. We do not need it. Otherwise we'll be just as bad, if not WORSE than the already OP PvP GWF. In other words, there will be two monsters in PvP. The ONLY reason why the PvP GWF is OP right is because of it's survivability, which doesn't fully belong to it. To prove my statement, go read a couple threads that's PvP related. You will find people saying the GWF is godly in PvP, and a few other things.
Not to get off topic, but the GWF dosn't really need a debuff to it's stats. The GWF is suppose to out DPS the TANK. It's mostly their module 2 encounters, to which need limitations for PvP. For example, the GWFs Threatening Rush can be rapidly repeated because the GWF's sprint can interrupt the animation. Allowing players to exploit it and SPAM Threatening Rush while their encounters cool down. All of which is occurring while having access to their Unstoppable ability.
I've spent PLENTY of hours in actual PvP combat, and have a GF PvP Montage to show for it. The way I see it, every class should have a weakness to a specific class. I can tell you for a FACT, the GF is weakest to the CW. Especially if the CW know's what he/she is doing. All of which is GOOD. Before module 2 the GWF posed a GREAT challenge to the GF, and the only way to kill one was to play smart. An enemy TR using Lashing Blade in the presence of a friendly CW, is a MAJOR threat to EVERY class. Because if you get Entangling Forced, and that TR gets behind you. It's gonna hurt! But with friendly GWF to distract the enemy CW, the TR is also a VERY fun and interesting opponent. My point is this, PvP before module 2 was pretty balanced. Everything had a ying and yang. Although some adjustments were/are needed, PvP is very enjoyable.
dailies count, so you have e encounters+ 1 daily(man, you cant use 2 at the same time) still not 6...
bigger sword= more damage, i admit it... but shield should be more durability, more chance to deflect(it is easier to deflect with shield than with 2h sword)... but it is actually not
not 30+, even mages get 35+... and 5k is noticeable... but 1 thingy... 5k is a crit, and your chance to crit is way too low, also do not forget about deflect... and about rich enough... why to compare low geared players? it is nearly the same as comparing level 30 characters... ofc all comparitions are made on top or close to top gears/enchancements...
block cc? did not you hear, that ray of frost freezes you through block, and then CW will land all the damage and CC, or just SoEA from behind to prone and then CClock, GWF- sprint through him and prone, then chain your skills... tr- just atk from behind, HR- melee and **** GF, or range and break his block in 2 shoots, then endless roots... and DCs are not supposed to kill GFs, really...and GWF just uses unstoppable for CC immune, that breaks any CC but prone...
ranged are annoying for GFs... when i play TR- ranged is not a problem, if i play GWF- i just go in and **** people
so you need a Daily+an encounter ONLY to get same effect as GWFs get on tab, and they have it nearly 24/7, while you cant do it...
GWF is not a selfish... he provides the same support as GF, but also can go 1 vs 3 to kill 1 and escape, can just run through enemies to disorganise them, can enter 1 vs 5, get dropped to 10% HP and safely escape, while GF will be locked by 2 guys
SM GF gets the same passive, but he cant use it effectively, as hehas no unstoppable, and has no speed of GWF...
about 40%DR... GWF gets 50% mitigation just by activating unstoppable... so combine it with 40% mitigation from gears, then their terrifying high deflect chance... and we will see much higher potential health...
and im looking on GF not only dmg wise- i compared him to GWF- he has EVERYTHING worse, so GF is a class, that is not superior at anything...
All of these suggestions I like for GF, i'd also add remove cap or increase it for terrifying Impact. why is it capped at 5 mobs? Its really not that useful for a daily unless you're kiting, and really given the time it takes to charge up using FS will deal more damage after 2 encounters than one Terrifying impact.
I believe this kind of equipment nerfing and cumulative resistance would make the game more enjoyable because it would allow for many more ways of dealing with a room of mobs rather than chain stunning them to death, and with p vorpals and 16k gs cws running around everywhere, often completely killing entire rooms of mobs in less than a single rotation of encounters. It would also never happen because cryptic isn't smart enough to create anything except give players 3k more gs every module until we start doing 20 minute full cn runs.
That's actually a really good question. To this day, I still don't understand why they put such a small hit cap on the GF. When our job is to distract all the mobs. I wonder why Cryptic hasn't release their thoughts on each class, or shed some light on their point of views. Maybe if they did that, players might understand why they did/do certain things.
I believe one of our most glaring weaknesses is how slow and clunky our skill animations can be. This can spell death for us in dungeon settings while tanking the adds. A solution for this would be to allow us to use encounters even with our Shield raised up, without dropping our guard. We absolutely can't risk being proned or CC-ed when you are tanking a horde of monsters in the boss room. Similar to how the TR can use certain encounters without them breaking Stealth, a GF should also be allowed to use certain encounters while holding up block. Skills such as the following would greatly benefit from a mechanic like that.
Guard Recovery.
- Enforced Threat.
- Into the Fray.
- Iron Warrior.
Party Protection.
- Knight's Challenge.
- Knight's Valor.
These utility skills should at least be allowed to be usable while having Guard up, without the need to put our Shield down. I like how the devs have been adding further utility to some of our skills. But to be honest, and I'm pretty sure the devs know it themselves, the Guardian Fighter simply will not function well with the current PVE meta. It would also be great if the said skills could also be used while moving, similar to Knight's Valor.
Another issue which needs to be addressed is our PVE environment. It's currently a playground for Control Wizards simply because of how easy it is to control mobs. Mobs currently have little to no immunities to CC. In order to fix this, we simply need to impose some CC resistances to mobs, and give them the chance to deflect CC's and shrug them off. Or better, just give us mobs that are immune to CC. The devs should rework the dungeons if they have to. Right now, the only real way to fix the GF is to fix the broken PVE.