gf block is good, since its on demand no cd immunity if used well, but the problem is that cryptic is so cheap that there are only na servers so ppl must play with 200ms ping that is HUGE for a wannabe action mmo
the main problem with tr is that the can attack while maintaining stealth and do a lot of dmg even from range, i dont even want to imagine how it will be to play vs geared ranged whisperknifes, since they can be in stealth 100% of the time and dont have to come in lantern range
What can't block: It can't block attacks from behind. It can't block CC Ray of Frost. It can't block Ray of Enfeeblement root. It is fast killed by huge damage abilities split in small attack intervals(Crescendo/DF). Disable to use any skill(except Guard At-wills). Slow your movement down(as we need this...). So many disadvantages as the class utility.
Edit: If you think Lantern will be a disadvantage for TRs, then you don't see that it give you +10-16% damage against near targets. Count this to the fast attacks they can do.
Ofc TR need rebalancing hotfix... i rolled TR as my first char and i loved it, but when im sometimes doing PVP i die sometimes. This is unacceptable. This must be fixed ASAP ;p And for those people who think that TR is OP i say just one thing... i can have 18k crit on them only if they stay in one spot and have 8k GS. Doesn't happen when people know how to play and spend some time playing and getting decent gear. If you play as CW and i throw daggers at you and you use all 3 teles to get as far as possible, and i can dodge roll to you just to get you off guard and LS you that doesn't mean my class is op, but that you are to scared to face TR. TR can win 1v1 but domination is team game, any FPS player know that. TR is squishy, you can kill him, but when i see when people try to choke me when i have ItC animation, that's just silly.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh believe me, it's not fear. Other than dailies, teleports are the only viable defense against a TR in stealth.
The OPness of TR is that via stealth, he can go on offense whenever he likes and dictate the terms of the battle, while everyone else is forced to attempt to guess at what the TR is going to do.
Oh believe me, it's not fear. Other than dailies, teleports are the only viable defense against a TR in stealth.
The OPness of TR is that via stealth, he can go on offense whenever he likes and dictate the terms of the battle, while everyone else is forced to attempt to guess at what the TR is going to do.
I used to play PvP a lot with my CW and after getting 29k HP etc. I finally found a perfect counter for rogues, and it was the only one that worked: I haven't logged on in a month. Have fun.
What can't block: It can't block attacks from behind. It can't block CC Ray of Frost. It can't block Ray of Enfeeblement root. It is fast killed by huge damage abilities split in small attack intervals(Crescendo/DF). Disable to use any skill(except Guard At-wills). Slow your movement down(as we need this...). So many disadvantages as the class utility.
u need to block only for a second for main dmg spike, though it would be better if block duration was based on time used instead of hits/dmg blocked
I used to play PvP a lot with my CW and after getting 29k HP etc. I finally found a perfect counter for rogues, and it was the only one that worked: I haven't logged on in a month. Have fun.
The TR in stealth is fairly predictable in that it will hit you from behind because if your mouse cursor hovers over it, you will see it. TR for CW, it is a matter of who has what cd in rotation/ready, and who gets a jump on who. TR vs GF, block during attack, attack during their cd.
TR's are probably op for pvp, but not by a massive margin. Besides, imo, being a skilled player is not about playing the easiest to play, most op class, it is about being able to make a huge difference while playing a relatively underpowered/difficult class to play.
If sentinel is to good in PvP, why not nerfing PvP aspects of him?
PvP aspects for Sentinels:
- Huge mega deflection
- Huge mega DR from unstoppable
- Large amount of HP
What to nerf? unstoppable? that would affect the PvE ones and actually kill the class in PvE more than it is already.
Nerf deflection? they will lose huge margin of their survivability, especially that GWF generates huge threat rate and can't escape combat easily in PvE.
Nerf HP from CON? that could work. But would impact destroyer GWFs too.
GWF was already mega nerfed because of the sentinels in PvP, let's not go through that again and kill the class in PvE even more.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
Yeah, nerfs are dumb. There are other methods to bring balance. As I said before:
- bring Resilience gear that becomes mandatory in PvP to fine tune EXACTLY how a class will perform - without affecting the PvE aspect of the game. You don't have resi gear, you get one shotted.
- bring up to par the other classes, by giving them immunities and escapes. CWs, for example, should have Mirror Images and Invisibility, also different type of shields they can switch between fast depending on what type of enemy they fight.
- provide a DPS paragon path for DCs. I mean, wtf. This class is the only one that cannot kill stuff reliably. This is not D&D we have here. I played a cleric in all Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter series and I was a very good damage dealer.
This way we can separate the PvE and PvP aspects of the game completely and fine tune them both properly.
Yup, I had to use colors like you do with little kids, because maybe just maybe somebody relevant reads and sees "oooh, shiny!!!" stuff and yeah... who knows
Yeah, nerfs are dumb. There are other methods to bring balance. As I said before:
- bring Resilience gear that becomes mandatory in PvP to fine tune EXACTLY how a class will perform - without affecting the PvE aspect of the game. You don't have resi gear, you get one shotted.
- bring up to par the other classes, by giving them immunities and escapes. CWs, for example, should have Mirror Images and Invisibility, also different type of shields they can switch between fast depending on what type of enemy they fight.
DC will get immunity with the new pragaon ( on top of their dodge). TR got immunity from ItC ( on top of their dodge). GWF got unstoppable. GF got shield . CW got 3 dodges.
- provide a DPS paragon path for DCs. I mean, wtf. This class is the only one that cannot kill stuff reliably. This is not D&D we have here. I played a cleric in all Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter series and I was a very good damage dealer.
Divine oracle is a very high damage dealing paragaon. With high prophet and terrifying insight i can do 15~20k with my daunting light. ( not sure if they fixed armor pen on that though)
Small note on GF...some attacks go through their shields, needs to be fixed i guess.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
You either learn from the masters, or you don't evolve. If there's something good in a certain game you might have mentioned, get the basic mechanism and improve on it, add it to your game later.
Don't make me laugh with the 3 dodges, what the hell.
Separate PvE and PvP and tune each. You have a better idea than Resilience gear? Please post it.
You either learn from the masters, or you don't evolve. If there's something good in a certain game you might have mentioned, get the basic mechanism and improve on it, add it to your game later.
Don't make me laugh with the 3 dodges, what the hell.
Separate PvE and PvP and tune each. You have a better idea than Resilience gear? Please post it.
WoW are the masters? :P didn't know that.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Divine oracle is a very high damage dealing paragaon. With high prophet and terrifying insight i can do 15~20k with my daunting light. ( not sure if they fixed armor pen on that though)
Debuffs help though. For the most part the lack of damage isn't the problem with DC, it's the lack of control. CW's do similar damage, aren't as badly target capped and apply CC while doing it.
Pugs complaining about other pugs.
Only pugs use lashing blade, not the real good TR's, because its a very bad encounter with a huge cooldown and extremly easy to dodge, mainly if you are a cw.
A tr cant lashing blade me on a 1vs1 fight, you have to be really stupid to get hited by it.
The only thing that is not balanced on pvp right now is the Roar on GWF's.
If you are having problems and dying to TR's with 1-2 shot, sorry to let you know, but the problem here is you, not the class. Go get some skills and some gears.
you forgot to add shocking execution and impact shot, those 2 needs some fixing too, or i guess you don't want your beloved class to be touched.
If this game would had a PvP-only Resilience stat on the PvP sets, this game would see way fewer complaints - if implemented properly.
This is how it should work:
- it should be mandatory in the sense that without Resilience gear, anybody, including most tanky builds, would get 1-2 shotted in the arena. How much Resi one would need? Now, that's an issue for theorycrafting, after implementation, and one should be able to make certain compromises (i.e. after you become very skilled at avoidance, you can equip less and less Resi gear and switch to PvE high damage pieces)
- it should (partially) replace stats such as crit/power/recovery/ArP. This way the devs would be able to control EXACTLY how much the usual player can bring to the table in PvP and balance accordingly.
What would be the results?
- Certain builds such as sents would have their tankiness reduced considerably, remember, it would be Resilience that would make you take less player damage, not defense and deflect.
- Certain builds would have their burst decreased considerably, such as TRs, GFs and CWs. In my opinion there's no skill in locking up a person in choke, following up with a 8k chill strike, debuffing, and ending with a 16K Icy Rays crit that lets them barely alive/dead. Such combos are present for a few classes, all at the same lameness level.
- certain builds would have increased PvP survivability and equal chances to deal with other classes... yup, I'm thinking of CWs primarily
Alternatively, they should offer escape/immunity mechanisms for all classes to make this fair. DCs and CWs are mostly sitting ducks, and GF block is not good enough compared to ITC/Unstoppable.
Great but unless they ban PvE gears and/or remove defense/deflect/armor pen from PvP completely , I do not think it would work.
The reason is when people find out how to balance both normal defensive stats and resilience, we would have even tankier characters.
You say 4v5 is impossible? Cool story bro.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Great but unless they ban PvE gears and/or remove defense/deflect/armor pen from PvP completely , I do not think it would work.
The reason is when people find out how to balance both normal defensive stats and resilience, we would have even tankier characters.
We don't want any interdictions and bans. We want players to be able to have diversity in their gearing. PvE gear will still be important. I'll detail why and how.
- PvP gear will have Resilience that will partly replace offensive stats. This will completely eliminate kills in one rotation and make fights longer. Players will have the ability to always respond back even if they were jumped on first.
- Resilience will work ONLY in PvP, will have no PvE effects.
- Resilience will not be the same amount on all armor for all classes. A CW might get more resi on his PvP chest than a GWF for example. This needs a lot of fine tuning, so what you said would not happen.
- You will NEED to wear a certain amount of resilience in PvP, or you will become excessively squishy and die super fast. Now, at one point, your timing might get better, skills will increase, and as you become a better player, you might be able to replace resi PvP gear with more offense-orientated PvE stuff. But you will still need to keep a sizable amount of Resi on your char or one-shots will start to happen.
- and last, indeed, stats like Deflect and Defense should become obsolete in PvP and remain PvE only, just as you said, for the sake of simplifying the fine-tuning job that devs will have, which will be extremely difficult.
However, bringing this resilience mechanism will require devs dedicated to PvP. We still have just 2 PvP maps This says everything IMO. The PvP in this game was just thrown here so nobody can say "NWO doesn't have any PVP". It got here, and left to die, nobody cares about it - besides players.
Sadly, I have to repeat these things again and again, maybe somebody sees them and acknowledges at least that they are working on something and that their PvP implementation has a huge amount of issues.
problem with this game is: you can't build a class that works perfectly fine in pve and pvp the same time. and neverwinter clearly shows that. that's why other games change the behaviour of gear, abilities and immunities only for pvp. there would be no problem to have an ability that deals 15k damage in pve (designed to kill a boss that has hundred thousands of hitpoints) that only deals 7k damage in pvp. also no problem to reduce cc durations in pvp (designed to control dozens of adds), remove a cc component from an ability only for pvp, add cc immunities only for pvp, change the way stealth works only for pvp, remove regen ticks during combat only for pvp... this is all possible without affecting the pve part of this game.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The man is putting out an opinion about how PvP should be in his view, nothing wrong with that. Everybody that has a GWF or TR obviously comes here and all they have to say is "QQ" and "cry" and "adapt". This is the same HAMSTER as IRL when the guy with a factory and 5 Rolls Royces tells the poor that he doesn't work enough for his goods and he will have anything he has if only he would work more.
PvP and PvE need separation and tuning each on their own. Simple as that. If you don't complain about stupid HAMSTER, it will never change.
Still find threads like this funny, Done CW to 60 as well as GWF, and I also have a TR. Theyre not OP lol...Felt they were the easiest to kill on my CW. Honestly the only time you should have a issue is if a good geared TR hits you with a lashing blade (crits) then hits you with Shocking executioner while stealthed (for the + Severity bonus-feat)
TR have a lot against them, super squishy- they have a high CD anti CC ability, that does not remove all CC types. They are currently the easiest kill class when focused (think the hunter-Ranger will be squishier) The only thing TR do well is single target dmg, they can burst down 1 person and theyre good at ninja capping enemy points. Basically you want to nerf their single target dmg which is all they got...ok sure, then lets nerf CW CC/ GWF we'd have to nerf multiple things since they have huge mobility/CC/Tanky/ and decent dmg...Lets nerf GF block duration...K lets nerf cleric party heals...derp
They are currently the easiest kill class when focused (think the hunter-Ranger will be squishier) The only thing TR do well is single target dmg, they can burst down 1 person and theyre good at ninja capping enemy points.
Nope, TR is still (in my experience to date) squishier than HR's on preview. They make up for it by doing much more damage.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
from my experience (and i have all classes) the tr is indeed the most op class in 1v1 when played fully dressed even other full dressed classes.
latelly i faced some good trs like he4d and loki and i saw how op they can be if one knows how to move correctly and has good enchantments.
loki who is perma with gloaming did low dmg but still had a clear socre of 17-0 etc in most matches since you cant see him ever.
he4d on the other way (and another guy named brutal...something) used poison full build with bilethorn and possibly the fabled set with poison, in our match he had 32-1 and that 1 by all my party on him once
well...they were just impossible to kill and could kill you while in stealth - itc = in 15 secs top
when you face other classes you have some chance to win if you play good even with lower gear . with them impossible even with perfect gear because of their huge dmg and pretty good stealth duration too
they were obviously not using int - recovery but had huge damage and good defences too (when they appeared after you had 1/3 life max)
that said i think i can be certain that stealth dmg must be lowered or make more skills show the tr or else we must all do trs to own (on the contrary the new build gives em another good at-will lol)
ps... its ridiculous even MARKED trs can go to stealth !!! give the other classes a chance to see them and not only every 2 mins 10ft around
I think the most practical and simple solution for TR's in pvp would be a pvp consumable that when used allows a character to see a red party stealthed TR for a short period of time (5-10 seconds). It would be cheap and easy to use, and would not require making entire different sets of gear just for pvp, would not require any nerf.
To me, stealth is the real issue with TR's in pvp. Catch one out of stealth and it is pretty much dead/forced away from node.
After listening to per3ephones advice and, as a cw, sniping from a distance, you can rip apart entire parties fighting on the node as long as they don't focus you, tr included. The smart tr will respawn, go in stealth, find you and kill you in return though lol. pvp is such a blast.
Still find threads like this funny, Done CW to 60 as well as GWF, and I also have a TR. Theyre not OP lol...Felt they were the easiest to kill on my CW. Honestly the only time you should have a issue is if a good geared TR hits you with a lashing blade (crits) then hits you with Shocking executioner while stealthed (for the + Severity bonus-feat)
TR have a lot against them, super squishy- they have a high CD anti CC ability, that does not remove all CC types. They are currently the easiest kill class when focused (think the hunter-Ranger will be squishier) The only thing TR do well is single target dmg, they can burst down 1 person and theyre good at ninja capping enemy points. Basically you want to nerf their single target dmg which is all they got...ok sure, then lets nerf CW CC/ GWF we'd have to nerf multiple things since they have huge mobility/CC/Tanky/ and decent dmg...Lets nerf GF block duration...K lets nerf cleric party heals...derp
You haven't any clue about GF's block or? CW can you CC through Block. Block don't make anything against attacks from behind. Block break fast with right attacks. Block slow down the GF.
I think the most practical and simple solution for TR's in pvp would be a pvp consumable that when used allows a character to see a red party stealthed TR for a short period of time (5-10 seconds). It would be cheap and easy to use, and would not require making entire different sets of gear just for pvp, would not require any nerf.
Module 2, there is an artifact for that.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Comments
What can't block: It can't block attacks from behind. It can't block CC Ray of Frost. It can't block Ray of Enfeeblement root. It is fast killed by huge damage abilities split in small attack intervals(Crescendo/DF). Disable to use any skill(except Guard At-wills). Slow your movement down(as we need this...). So many disadvantages as the class utility.
Edit: If you think Lantern will be a disadvantage for TRs, then you don't see that it give you +10-16% damage against near targets. Count this to the fast attacks they can do.
Ray of Enfeeblement cannot root.
Ups Icy Rays is it. Arr they have so similar names, that it easy to mix up them. xD
I got crit ar 12.5 GS/28% DR with 28K LB and 19K IS. No worries, it's possible
The big crits are not even the problematic part, sometimes you get debuffed and it happens.
The OPness of TR is that via stealth, he can go on offense whenever he likes and dictate the terms of the battle, while everyone else is forced to attempt to guess at what the TR is going to do.
I used to play PvP a lot with my CW and after getting 29k HP etc. I finally found a perfect counter for rogues, and it was the only one that worked: I haven't logged on in a month. Have fun.
u need to block only for a second for main dmg spike, though it would be better if block duration was based on time used instead of hits/dmg blocked
The TR in stealth is fairly predictable in that it will hit you from behind because if your mouse cursor hovers over it, you will see it. TR for CW, it is a matter of who has what cd in rotation/ready, and who gets a jump on who. TR vs GF, block during attack, attack during their cd.
TR's are probably op for pvp, but not by a massive margin. Besides, imo, being a skilled player is not about playing the easiest to play, most op class, it is about being able to make a huge difference while playing a relatively underpowered/difficult class to play.
Jugger Conq GF
....
PvP aspects for Sentinels:
- Huge mega deflection
- Huge mega DR from unstoppable
- Large amount of HP
What to nerf? unstoppable? that would affect the PvE ones and actually kill the class in PvE more than it is already.
Nerf deflection? they will lose huge margin of their survivability, especially that GWF generates huge threat rate and can't escape combat easily in PvE.
Nerf HP from CON? that could work. But would impact destroyer GWFs too.
GWF was already mega nerfed because of the sentinels in PvP, let's not go through that again and kill the class in PvE even more.
- bring Resilience gear that becomes mandatory in PvP to fine tune EXACTLY how a class will perform - without affecting the PvE aspect of the game. You don't have resi gear, you get one shotted.
- bring up to par the other classes, by giving them immunities and escapes. CWs, for example, should have Mirror Images and Invisibility, also different type of shields they can switch between fast depending on what type of enemy they fight.
- provide a DPS paragon path for DCs. I mean, wtf. This class is the only one that cannot kill stuff reliably. This is not D&D we have here. I played a cleric in all Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter series and I was a very good damage dealer.
This way we can separate the PvE and PvP aspects of the game completely and fine tune them both properly.
Yup, I had to use colors like you do with little kids, because maybe just maybe somebody relevant reads and sees "oooh, shiny!!!" stuff and yeah... who knows
This isn't WoW.
DC will get immunity with the new pragaon ( on top of their dodge). TR got immunity from ItC ( on top of their dodge). GWF got unstoppable. GF got shield . CW got 3 dodges.
dodge= immune to damage.
Divine oracle is a very high damage dealing paragaon. With high prophet and terrifying insight i can do 15~20k with my daunting light. ( not sure if they fixed armor pen on that though)
Small note on GF...some attacks go through their shields, needs to be fixed i guess.
Don't make me laugh with the 3 dodges, what the hell.
Separate PvE and PvP and tune each. You have a better idea than Resilience gear? Please post it.
WoW are the masters? :P didn't know that.
Blizzard. They gonna cleanse these posts if we continue
Debuffs help though. For the most part the lack of damage isn't the problem with DC, it's the lack of control. CW's do similar damage, aren't as badly target capped and apply CC while doing it.
you forgot to add shocking execution and impact shot, those 2 needs some fixing too, or i guess you don't want your beloved class to be touched.
Great but unless they ban PvE gears and/or remove defense/deflect/armor pen from PvP completely , I do not think it would work.
The reason is when people find out how to balance both normal defensive stats and resilience, we would have even tankier characters.
We don't want any interdictions and bans. We want players to be able to have diversity in their gearing. PvE gear will still be important. I'll detail why and how.
- PvP gear will have Resilience that will partly replace offensive stats. This will completely eliminate kills in one rotation and make fights longer. Players will have the ability to always respond back even if they were jumped on first.
- Resilience will work ONLY in PvP, will have no PvE effects.
- Resilience will not be the same amount on all armor for all classes. A CW might get more resi on his PvP chest than a GWF for example. This needs a lot of fine tuning, so what you said would not happen.
- You will NEED to wear a certain amount of resilience in PvP, or you will become excessively squishy and die super fast. Now, at one point, your timing might get better, skills will increase, and as you become a better player, you might be able to replace resi PvP gear with more offense-orientated PvE stuff. But you will still need to keep a sizable amount of Resi on your char or one-shots will start to happen.
- and last, indeed, stats like Deflect and Defense should become obsolete in PvP and remain PvE only, just as you said, for the sake of simplifying the fine-tuning job that devs will have, which will be extremely difficult.
However, bringing this resilience mechanism will require devs dedicated to PvP. We still have just 2 PvP maps
Sadly, I have to repeat these things again and again, maybe somebody sees them and acknowledges at least that they are working on something and that their PvP implementation has a huge amount of issues.
The man is putting out an opinion about how PvP should be in his view, nothing wrong with that. Everybody that has a GWF or TR obviously comes here and all they have to say is "QQ" and "cry" and "adapt". This is the same HAMSTER as IRL when the guy with a factory and 5 Rolls Royces tells the poor that he doesn't work enough for his goods and he will have anything he has if only he would work more.
PvP and PvE need separation and tuning each on their own. Simple as that. If you don't complain about stupid HAMSTER, it will never change.
So actually more QQ will bring change
TR have a lot against them, super squishy- they have a high CD anti CC ability, that does not remove all CC types. They are currently the easiest kill class when focused (think the hunter-Ranger will be squishier) The only thing TR do well is single target dmg, they can burst down 1 person and theyre good at ninja capping enemy points. Basically you want to nerf their single target dmg which is all they got...ok sure, then lets nerf CW CC/ GWF we'd have to nerf multiple things since they have huge mobility/CC/Tanky/ and decent dmg...Lets nerf GF block duration...K lets nerf cleric party heals...derp
Nope, TR is still (in my experience to date) squishier than HR's on preview. They make up for it by doing much more damage.
latelly i faced some good trs like he4d and loki and i saw how op they can be if one knows how to move correctly and has good enchantments.
loki who is perma with gloaming did low dmg but still had a clear socre of 17-0 etc in most matches since you cant see him ever.
he4d on the other way (and another guy named brutal...something) used poison full build with bilethorn and possibly the fabled set with poison, in our match he had 32-1 and that 1 by all my party on him once
well...they were just impossible to kill and could kill you while in stealth - itc = in 15 secs top
when you face other classes you have some chance to win if you play good even with lower gear . with them impossible even with perfect gear because of their huge dmg and pretty good stealth duration too
they were obviously not using int - recovery but had huge damage and good defences too (when they appeared after you had 1/3 life max)
that said i think i can be certain that stealth dmg must be lowered or make more skills show the tr or else we must all do trs to own (on the contrary the new build gives em another good at-will lol)
ps... its ridiculous even MARKED trs can go to stealth !!! give the other classes a chance to see them and not only every 2 mins 10ft around
To me, stealth is the real issue with TR's in pvp. Catch one out of stealth and it is pretty much dead/forced away from node.
After listening to per3ephones advice and, as a cw, sniping from a distance, you can rip apart entire parties fighting on the node as long as they don't focus you, tr included. The smart tr will respawn, go in stealth, find you and kill you in return though lol. pvp is such a blast.
Jugger Conq GF
....
You haven't any clue about GF's block or? CW can you CC through Block. Block don't make anything against attacks from behind. Block break fast with right attacks. Block slow down the GF.
Module 2, there is an artifact for that.
Now you can get your kill count up and feel like you did something...in a video game!
Hint - Play the class before crying foul.