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When will we finally see a TR nerf for PVP?
yokihiro
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 510 Bounty Hunter
It get odd lately: Perma-stealthing, almost always immune TRs in every match. Not only 1, no 2 or 3. I would even say that those guys are the reason for 90% of the leavers in a PVP match.
It makes no sense anymore to play a class other than GWF or TR because the perma-stealthers just rip through DCs and CWs. You can stand on a pad and around you jumps a TR that you cannot see. He blinks in for half a second only to disappear again in stealth. You can use your dodges but he still stays in stealth only to throw knives at you and slowly killing you while you can't do a single thing.
This feature is not build for PVP, it is a PVE feature. There is no reason for PVP why someone can stay in stealth all the time and kill you without you having the slightest chance to react.
There are so many posts where people want to punish the leavers in PVP - well, then devs should fix PVP first. I have left dozens of matches because of perma-stealthing TRs, I will leave dozens of matches because of them and others are doing the same. You can see that easily. People going down twice by a TR that hides in stealth, throws knives, uses impact shot, then uses his cheap immunity feature ITC and people die while the TR has still 95%-100% health. Then your party drops to 4, then to 3 and that's it. Happens after 2 minutes already in lots of matches I play.
This cannot be the state of PVP in this game where some classes like the TR have so many cheap tricks at their disposal while other classes can dodge 2-3 times and that's it with their defense. And don't tell me "play strategically then and cap flags" - it is not about the PVP mode, it is about a class that has so many advantages that this is very one-sided. And actually it is the first MMO I play where a rogue class can stay in stealth while he is dealing damage. I have never seen this before in any game. Nor have I seen abilities on short cooldowns that make a class immune to CC AND damage at the same time!
Please fix TRs finally - at least change their behaviour for PVP, no need to change it for PVE, but changes that affect only PVP should be done quickly in this game or with Shadowmantle even more PVP matches will result in one team waiting minutes until the timer runs out because the other team has left or waits in spawn. I just don't want to think about TRs having the Sharandar boons AND the Dread Ring boons while new level 60s have nothing. That smells like even more fun...
It makes no sense anymore to play a class other than GWF or TR because the perma-stealthers just rip through DCs and CWs. You can stand on a pad and around you jumps a TR that you cannot see. He blinks in for half a second only to disappear again in stealth. You can use your dodges but he still stays in stealth only to throw knives at you and slowly killing you while you can't do a single thing.
This feature is not build for PVP, it is a PVE feature. There is no reason for PVP why someone can stay in stealth all the time and kill you without you having the slightest chance to react.
There are so many posts where people want to punish the leavers in PVP - well, then devs should fix PVP first. I have left dozens of matches because of perma-stealthing TRs, I will leave dozens of matches because of them and others are doing the same. You can see that easily. People going down twice by a TR that hides in stealth, throws knives, uses impact shot, then uses his cheap immunity feature ITC and people die while the TR has still 95%-100% health. Then your party drops to 4, then to 3 and that's it. Happens after 2 minutes already in lots of matches I play.
This cannot be the state of PVP in this game where some classes like the TR have so many cheap tricks at their disposal while other classes can dodge 2-3 times and that's it with their defense. And don't tell me "play strategically then and cap flags" - it is not about the PVP mode, it is about a class that has so many advantages that this is very one-sided. And actually it is the first MMO I play where a rogue class can stay in stealth while he is dealing damage. I have never seen this before in any game. Nor have I seen abilities on short cooldowns that make a class immune to CC AND damage at the same time!
Please fix TRs finally - at least change their behaviour for PVP, no need to change it for PVE, but changes that affect only PVP should be done quickly in this game or with Shadowmantle even more PVP matches will result in one team waiting minutes until the timer runs out because the other team has left or waits in spawn. I just don't want to think about TRs having the Sharandar boons AND the Dread Ring boons while new level 60s have nothing. That smells like even more fun...
Post edited by yokihiro on
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Enchants are the thing you should QQ about.
Any class can be OP if you know how to play it so either quit it or just try to do something productive for your class.
Lol? A reason why people leave pvp? You're wrong lol
WTB Class Reroll please
Despite this, you will get an artifact in shadowmantle which will let you see stealthed individuals.
So please, until all of these people who are trying to make glass cannons start focusing more on defense instead of the 1 dimensional mindset that you should be able to be torn through like paper, don't cry for unnecessary nerfs. The best guilds in the game still have CWs tearing it up in competitive pvp. I would say allt from lemonade stand is one of the best pvp-ers and is a cw. I haven't heard any of them complaining about any nerfs to other classes.
I will be waiting for your gwf nerf thread once shadowmantle comes out if you do not make the necessary changes to your "made of paper" approach.
Well...you are the one who don't make sense to be honest, and here is why :
You have got some stuff to learn, it seems.
About CWs..contact Lantiss or MiuMiu both are very good CWs and they can give some tips about PvP.
I am one of those rogue that you don't like, with high regeneration / hp stats I can manage 3vs1 fight but I can also say that if I meet a good DC, that will be a waste of time.
The main mean of this thread I've get is: "Please, nerf skilled/geared players because I am unable to fight against they!"
~ Naissur Etiwh
Youtube: Trickster Rogue - Pug Match @ 1 vs 1
Screenshot zone:
Click: I Bet 99% of people CAN'T screenshot this
Server: Rapier
Make friends with some rogues, ask for tips, pointers, learn their abilities and their limits, learn the rotation they need to sustain the stealth and know how to combat against it.
Make a rogue and level it up and gain first hand knowledge about everything mentioned above.
Carry that knowledge to your main, and put it into practice.
I have a 60 of every class for a reason.
Come give me a shout sometime.
http://www.twitch.tv/sv3tya
Everyone already knows Rogues are the face-roll class of NWO. Everyone.
Most of the ones I see spam literally 1 or 2 moves over and over. That's their entire treasure trove of "skill." They're like someone starting a race 3 inches from the finish line.
The wailing and gnashing of teeth you see in this thread are those terrified of losing their "I win" class.
Then if your always running into rogues "Spamming 1 or 2 skills" may I suggest sending some of us tells to have a friendly queue ?
I know most of the rogues who post on here and I can tell you abilities these rogues use vary greatly from rogue to rogue...
However, is it possibly the fact that rogues, like every class, Have a limited amount of encounters and skills that put out acceptable damage for PvP ?
Do you honestly expect to see rogues going against you with Blitz, Smokebomb and Wicked Reminder slotted ?
These just start flame wars. Let this thread die in peace.
Either way, rogues are good at single target dps and evasion, CW is good at controlling, DC is good at healing/tanking, GWF is good at tanking or DPS with higher defenses based on build, GF is good at tanking or DPS with higher defenses based on build.
Now, if you look at the people who are starting these threads, most of them are CWs. Does it make sense that you, as a character designed not for defense, nor offense, but for CONTROL, should be having problems with a class based on EVASION and damage 1v1? If you want to start nerfing this aspect of the TR, lets start nerfing CW ability to control, DC ability to heal, GWF and GF ability to tank while we are at it. If you look for them, you can find people crying about DC being op b/c of tanking/heal ability, gwf for tanking, gf for tanking, cw for freezing... The only difference here is that more players chose to play a rogue than the other classes in pvp. However, this does not justify complaining to nerf the CORE CONCEPT behind a class that makes it unique, unless you want to start doing the same for all the other classes.
Also, most people making these threads fail to realize that in this game's pvp, glass cannons does not work. You need to be focusing on your defensive slots/enchants just as much to be good at pvp. If you do this, you shouldn't have problems being 1 combed or 1 shot by rogues.
If I see another thread or post in support of something like this again....I'm going to lose it....
And again...you get a ridiculously OP artifact which lets you see stealthed individuals in shadowmantle. That is basically nerfing the classes unique ability. Next thing you know there will be an artifact that stops unstoppable, one that stops chill effects, one that stops healing spells, and one that stops guarding. Maybe then we can start making artifacts which evens all the stats between you and your opponent, then ones that make it so you and your opponent have the exact same moves. Then one that makes enchants all the same. Then we can all be the same cookie cut character using the same exact things with the exact same stats/gear and pvp will be so much fun because it will be balanced and we all wont have to cry about those people who are OP for having a unique characteristic anymore. This is a dumb road to go down if you want fun and diverse pvp.
The only permastealth I can't defeat is that one which have Tenebrous enchantments.
Youtube: Trickster Rogue - Pug Match @ 1 vs 1
Screenshot zone:
Click: I Bet 99% of people CAN'T screenshot this
Complaining players would do better to buff their own PvP skills so they can better fight them.
Edit: Oh yes, I forgot about the magic 'see invisible' lantern, which also amounts to yet another TR nerf. Yeah, I definitely think that this class has had it's fair share of nerfing, if not more so.
Larz, meet Banelorne.
Lorne, meet Larz
1. It should be sufficient. The thing that makes Impact Shot OP is not its damage but its chainability since it roots you to place even before you get struck by IS. It's practically impossible to dodge and can be devastating when you get chained with interrupt crits. Otherwise that's the only thing that's getting addressed for the coming fix. Damage-wise, I think a more suitable adjustment would be slowing down the speed of its execution. Once you get hit for the first shot of IS, it'll be hard to dodge the 3 incoming shots because of how fast the skill can be stringed together. I'm cool with how this turns out either way, even though I'm usually on the receiving end of Impact Shot's power.
2. This'll pretty much kill ITC for PVE, however. I'm cool with losing some damage if we got some utility in return, like having 30% increased movement speed. Something that will really make us impossible to catch like the name suggests.
3. Never really did rely on DF for its Control Effects. But it's the one thing that makes fighting GWF's and GF's more bearable. I never use it against CW's because they can simply dodge it.
4. Reduced speed? Okay, I guess. How about we make TR's need to walk when in stealth? But in return, give us back how Sneak Attack used to be, 30% increased damage. We lose mobility, making us susceptible to detection and CC, further decreasing our survivability in a PVP world where the first to cast CC wins.
5. I agree.
However the TR turns out, I'll still play it nonetheless and adapt. I made my second Banelorne in order to make sure that my build will still survive even after the Stealth nerf pushes through back in pre-Sharandar release. It's a good thing that the devs realized that such a change would cripple such a flimsy class.
LOL, Svet. I'll get my *ss handed to me! Anyway, I'll keep the @handle in mind, Larzynt. I remember all the @handles that I need to be extra careful of in PVP.
Now for my take on that list.
1. I agree the chaining of Impact Shot should be broken. I do not think any of the shots should stun.
2. I agree with Banelorne's approach of increased run speed. However, one of two weakness to a Sent GWF is a ITC high DPS rogue. The other being a skilled GF, so I do not think ITC should have a decrease in damage.
3. I also think the .75 seconds Flurry is active is not Overpowering and Seeing it remain as is ... is fine with me. CW control powers are already way out of balance in PvP. I find myself being choked in the air for at least 2 seconds sometimes. If you remove Immunity from Flurry, lessen the duration of all CW control effects. As CW's are the main instigators of a flurry change.
4. Reduced speed while stealth is fine. Walking is not. I undertsand "creeping" along in stealth fits the idea of how stealth operates. I know some military people who train in stealth that would disagree they need to walk to maintain stealth.
5. It's called Execution for a reason. I do not think Shocking Execution should have a wider dodge ratio ( it can be dodged currently, I have done it on stream before ... you have roughly a .5 sec area to dodge or teleport or Slide so it doesnt hit you. As they are going up for the animation, before they hit their apex.....DODGE )
This is coming from a player that mains a DC and fully PuGs. I too get frustrated when I am lolstopmed by Perfect Vorpal+R10s skillshots but, that's life. I guess that I make them equally angry when I survive the onslaught and my teams roflstomps them.
Don't ask for nerfs, it makes no sense.
1 - I agree
2 and 3 - In my point of view is great the way it is
4 - Please do NOT, I know that many feel nostalgic for the 30% damage Stealth anymore "would be the shot in the foot" movement speed and really nessesario for rogues perma-stealth
5 - SS already took a nerf in tremendous damage to my mind the only advantage of her and she just can not be dodge "to eliminate that annoying guy who almost killed ta" ja GF is defend SS which I find ridiculous
Server: Rapier
About the cc immunity from DF, so you're saying to nerf the skillful people? Do you know how long some of us has practiced DF before being able to land this on people? Heck even the guides here points towards sly flourish in PvP as main st will. Personally TR'S has had many nerfs so far yet the OP by definition a glass cannon wants to be able to steamroll everyone like he does in pve and here you are as well asking for a couple of "minor" nerfs. You should know by now nerfing core skills like this will make rogues rather unplayable in pve since unlike other game they don't really have time to make PvP specific changes.
I've seen so many cw's just burn through their teleport for no apparent reason whilst against me on points... It's like asking me to pop a DF on them, other funny part is cw's rarely uses the terrain to their advantage... Couple of vantage points on both maps yet they prefer to go @ 2 and stay far back away from the heals and by themselves, as you can see that's a pve mentality.. I'm sorry to say but some people really need to get a clue how to play their class.
This thread was just: I can't kill x, nerf x. Mate if you're crying now I don't know what you'll do when mod 2 comes along and you get chained proned by iron vanguard GWF.
If you don't use Shadow Strike against other players, why not? :>
By the way I agree, if you want a nerf for Trickster Rogue class, they must nerf also Defense.
@macjae dailies doesnt not remove your stealth.
Duelist's flurry is kinda slow to cast. And if you walk around you will probably dodge it without pressing Shift key. Try it yourself.
On preview you can see the jump thing is nerfed, so you will probably post less poems on forum.
About impact shot.. why? Yea it's a very powerful skill but imho the only class that must be nerf'd in pvp it's Control Wizard that it's semi-useless atm.
Youtube: Trickster Rogue - Pug Match @ 1 vs 1
Screenshot zone:
Click: I Bet 99% of people CAN'T screenshot this
I've played just about every class in PvP and I've found strengths, weaknesses, and frustrations fighting against every class. I honestly think this is a very balanced PvP system. But, I can also understand where some of these posts about changing around some TR skills. I play a perma-stealth myself and I enjoy it. I love having a bit of a ranged utility to counter CW stuns and damage. I also know that if I screw up and miss a timing on a skill, I'm popped out of stealth and vulnerable, and ultimately dead if a CW controls me, a GF stuns me, or if a GWF IBSs me. I don't think the real issue is with the TR skills (they are meant to be the highest single target dps class), but I think the problem lies with perfect enchants. I run with R7s in my skulkers set. I use a SF and a GV as my enchants. Before I had the vorpal, I did ok damage. I would be able to survive more an ultimately deal more damage than I did as another build, but when I added the GV, that's when things got really fun. That's when I had the huge hits on lashing blade and IS. Before any skills are reworked, I would suggest a change in enchants. Maybe make the weapon enchants and armor enchants non viable in PvP, or at least less potent. I think that would solve a lot of QQing.
As for reworking the skills, I agree that IS should have a bit more of a delay between chaining, and maybe instead of a continuous stun, either have a stun out of stealth and nothing for the following knives, or make it slow the target instead. As a TR, we need to close the gap somehow.
I think ITC is fine just the way it is. It's a rather short duration compared to other classes defensive skills.
I've never noticed a control immunity in DF to be honest.
If you aren't in lurking assault, stealth already depletes rather quickly, even with the skulker set. I can understand a reduced speed (typically that happens in other MMOs) but allow us a passive feat that increases the speed in stealth back up to the normal speed. But really, the idea of a rogue is to be unseen and deal damage. I personally think that the perma-stealth build is the truest in nature to what a rogue really would be like. About these TRs actually being in stealth permanently, unless they have some crazy AP gain, I don't know how they're able to get back into stealth within a second like some people claim they do. When you use an encounter, stealth is completely depleted. Lurking assault only does so much as to recharge that stealth, and SS also only does so much and ITC doesn't last long enough out of stealth for it to remain up for the full duration of the stealth recharge. If you don't have Lurking assault up, and you pop out of stealth, you're SOL for long enough to be taken down.
I've seen Shocking execution be dodged many times. It's fine just the way it is.
Players really need to understand that no class in this game is OP. OP means that they have no weakness. Every class has a weakness that can easily be exploited. I don't want to tell people to L2P because that's a terrible way to address an issue, but there are times when players need to adapt to different class builds. It can be difficult, but that's where I find the fun in PvP. I like having to change my strategy around to counter different playstyles so it's not so cookie cutter every time I queue for a match. Gear also has a huge effect on your PvP experience. If you can muster a T1 or T2 pvp set with at least R5 enchants, and even lessers or normal weapon and armor enchants, you should be fine. Sure you'll die and sure you won't be on top of the scores every time, but just because you die in PvP doesn't mean that the class that kills you is OP. Should I cry for a nerf on CWs when I get Ice Knifed for 40k damage on a crit thanks to EoTS r10 enchants and a PV? No, I just get jealous that I don't have those enchants in my gear, or I get pissy about how good those enchants are.
A lot of stuff is changing in Shadowmantle and a ton of new builds will surface that people will cry out for nerfing. I say just have fun and play the game. Nothing is stopping you from trying out other classes
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A class that can stay invisible, while killing pretty much any other class, by spamming 1 move.
What a joke.
<InB4 b.s. excuses about "defense" and other such inapplicable nonsense>