All combat log parses I have ever heard of on G.Tenes amount to 20-50% damage at most and it is only significant because of the burst, but hardly overwhelming majority, especially in premades where everyone is built ultra defensively.
If you do not know how to play, or your build or playstyle has bad synergy with or without Tenes, you will be steamrolled by anyone with a clue. You even said yourself that you beat most other TRs, even when they had Tenes.
Regardless, of what build he uses, Blacksheep is far better than most TRs I have seen. Also, the Tene nerf would affect all who have it simultaneously. So, nothing has changed relatively. I suspect some Tene users will switch to higher rank Darks though because the only difficulty they have killing targets are from tanky targets. They can otherwise kill CWs in their sleep and it is only skill/experience that enables consistently taking out other TRs.
I am just curious if he was thinking on different options. I know quite a fiew people who have already switched out of there Tenes to master something different. I don't think its going to be "huge". But it is going to be significant, depending on who you are playing. Right now..they ignore everything. If they implement the change, it wont. That's like Night and Day difference "I think".
We'll have to see
Lets not turn this into a Tenebrous topic, theres already too many =P
All combat log parses I have ever heard of on G.Tenes amount to 20-50% damage at most and it is only significant because of the burst, but hardly overwhelming majority, especially in premades where everyone is built ultra defensively.
dat ^
anyhow, i am kinda bored of TR tbh, 5 months playing it, maybe i will revive my Diablo 3 Demon Hunter times on the new Ranger class and stop playing TR as my main
Lol.
Did u ever heard about 20 CON and radiant 10's? ;p
Yea 20% exactly armor pen, why would i lie? Lol, its not like i am a random unkown n.o.o.b, every top PvP player that play premades know my name.
Actually i had almost 33K Hp until 3 weeks ago or so, but i switched my neck/belt from HP/crit/armpen to Regen/crit/armpen, so right now i have "only" 31.9k.
How i got those stats? No secret bro, skulkers and any random neck/belt that gives u any random ammout of armor pen? lol
I wish that if u had 33% + deflect u would actually deflect 1 of 3 hits, u really think i never tried it? Its just not working like that, its %, its about luck.
Its very simple, something that its about luck vssomething that works 100% of the time plus benefits other stats like regen as well.
And as i said on my first post, i can show whatever i say he on the game, talking is easy..
I actually wasn't questioning your skill or word. I also have ftwo def slots with radiants 7/8. I also have three darks in offensive 8/8/7, and am right at 19.5 arm pen. I also use belt/neck with armpen. So if I can increase my ho/armpen then I wou liketo see my options. I'm not lookifor proof, just an ability score layout and gear.
Also, I will be posting some test results for deflect .
"If you don't know who I am, then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly" -- Walter White
Below is a log from standing and taking damage from an enemy in Sharandar. Defense is at 20%, Deflect 30%, HP 27,016, Regen 9.1%
This also retains 45% crit, 20.5% armpen, and 2477 power
26 strikes, 11 were deflected and 80%+ damage avoided on these strikes.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 216 (1781) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1405 (1737) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1451 (1794) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Thorn deals 1860 (2300) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 392 (3854) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 215 (1771) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1466 (1813) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 223 (1837) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1488 (1841) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1421 (1757) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 2625 (3868) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Thorn deals 1783 (2205) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1475 (1824) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1406 (1738) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1479 (1830) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 211 (1739) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 2732 (4026) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 221 (1822) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1431 (1770) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1448 (1791) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1484 (1835) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 384 (3769) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 217 (1788) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 223 (1839) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 222 (1827) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 207 (1708) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
"If you don't know who I am, then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly" -- Walter White
i got 1970 armor pen using full skulker set + skulker daggers + 2x seal exec + berserker of youth neck/belt.
its exactly 20.0% armor pen, with no darks at all.
My regen ticks are 1489 or something like that if im not wrong, i got 9.0% regen exactly, and 31.8k life.
Thats with 7 offense slots, and all of them are tenes.
I was about to get the fomorians daggers and so, but dude, the diference is so insignificant compared to the CN daggers that i have, plus i lose 1k life and tons of armor pen, so well, at least for now ill stay with the skulkers.
I saw that there is a new cool dagger "non set bonus" ones, with some very high wep dmg and armor pen, etc, coming on the expansion.. maybe that could beat skulker.
I was about to get the fomorians daggers and so, but dude, the diference is so insignificant compared to the CN daggers that i have, plus i lose 1k life and tons of armor pen, so well, at least for now ill stay with the skulkers.
I saw that there is a new cool dagger "non set bonus" ones, with some very high wep dmg and armor pen, etc, coming on the expansion.. maybe that could beat skulker.
By going with the Fomorian 2/2 set over Skulkers daggers 2/2
You will Lose 784 health.
You will Gain: 42 damage
512 Power
466 Crit
206 Recovery
6 ArP
10 Lifesteal
In my opinion, the Fomorian is by far the better choice. 784 less health, will be like what..30 less regen? I'm no good with numbers, but I'm assuming its very minor.
i got 1970 armor pen using full skulker set + skulker daggers + 2x seal exec + berserker of youth neck/belt.
its exactly 20.0% armor pen, with no darks at all.
My regen ticks are 1489 or something like that if im not wrong, i got 9.0% regen exactly, and 31.8k life.
Thats with 7 offense slots, and all of them are tenes.
I was about to get the fomorians daggers and so, but dude, the diference is so insignificant compared to the CN daggers that i have, plus i lose 1k life and tons of armor pen, so well, at least for now ill stay with the skulkers.
I saw that there is a new cool dagger "non set bonus" ones, with some very high wep dmg and armor pen, etc, coming on the expansion.. maybe that could beat skulker.
First off, let me just apologize my accusations in my first reply, I had no idea that Constitution would have contributed so much to HP. I also didnt think about the skulker daggers for AP. In fact, I'm glad you did chime in because it allowed me to explore more options in reworking my ability score to obtain better results.
I use 2/2 Fomorian Fabled, 4/4 skulkers, 2 rings of pres, searing belt, bloodied frostwolf pelt. I also took your advice on more HP and changed my enchants around a bit. 4 defensive slots 2 Radiant 8's, 2 Silvery 8's. I also spec Toughness, and Lucky Skirmisher, and HP/deflect from boons.
After reworking my gear/enchants, I ran several offensive tests. The first was with Nimble blade in an Executioner build. That proved to be a bad choice over critical teamwork or anything for that matter. I also did several stealth combat logs to better understand the damage increase from combat advantage. The damage increase quite significant. I dont think i will ever understand the sacrifice of 25% stealth increase by moving to a 2/2 set to obtain +250 of any stat, especially when skulkers already has high HP, Arm Pen, and LifeSteal. And with so many of the mainstay feats feeding off of stealth, such as Underhanded Tactics and Brutal Backstab.
I was also using 'First Strike', but found that Overrun Critical seemed to place an opener as high or higher if you CoS the target to obtain the buff first. So i switched in tenacious concealment with skillful infiltrator.
I Finally ran a PUG at 3am to see how all these changes went. I used SS/Lashing/Impact Whirlwind/Shocking-LA
Now granted it was a PUG, but placed top with 17kills, 0 deaths, 25 assists. Hopefully, I'll get a good, consistent group together soon and see you guys out in the field.
-Noxis
"If you don't know who I am, then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly" -- Walter White
Also, has anyone tried Fey Thistle Boon with this build yet. I'm not sure if there is an internal cooldown, but if not than my previous test results would have yielded 4400 damage back at the enemy in the 26 hits. Now you never want to get hit with a duelist furry, but at least you could send some significant damage back at your attacker if no cooldown exists.
"If you don't know who I am, then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly" -- Walter White
Also, has anyone tried Fey Thistle Boon with this build yet. I'm not sure if there is an internal cooldown, but if not than my previous test results would have yielded 4400 damage back at the enemy in the 26 hits. Now you never want to get hit with a duelist furry, but at least you could send some significant damage back at your attacker if no cooldown exists.
I have it, and its amazing. No cool down that I've noticed
Hey alysin, was wondering what your rotation on GF's are? For most I can take however you get the really tanky ones and it seems that if you mess up at all you are prone till death. Any tips?
Hey alysin, was wondering what your rotation on GF's are? For most I can take however you get the really tanky ones and it seems that if you mess up at all you are prone till death. Any tips?
PvP in general is very vague, it all depends on the current situation; where you are in the battlefield, is it 1 vs 1, what skills are you personally running, how skilled/geared is the player you are facing, your ping, their ping, lots of factors.
My normal set up now is; ItC, Impact, Lashing. In premades Itc, Impact(trade out for PoB situational), and Shadow Strike.
Generally speaking most people who play PvP aren't that good skillwise, and most aren't built for PvP.
I use Duelist Flurry in PvP, and its key imo, to fighting GF's. It absolutely destroys there shield and applies dots, whether large or small it doesn't matter, dmg is dmg. So I will catch them with DF, immediately use Lashing, then dodge out. Start my DF twist, then either jump into them with Animation, or allow them to bulrush or FS into it. Usually they tend to run right into it. Then I'll Pop ITC, do another DF, Lashing, generally if they aren't dead already, they are usually dead now.
That's against your normal GF's. They will usually burn there encounters thinking they can hit you while you are in DF animation, so sometimes I don't even dodge out cuz I see them waste there encounters, and I just face tank and continue using DF, ITC, and Lashing till there dead.
Against skilled GF's of course its very different. One major thing to watch for is there Damage Shield. Not sure the name, but it incircles them with Yellow Short swords. Smart ones will allow you to set up DF on them, and pop that damage shield when you go into animation on DF, and are unable to dodge out, and end up owning yourself, then they will FS or BR you.
Some pop it early, anticipating you will hit them not knowing. <---I see this all the time, dont hit them at all during this..
When I talked about situational, for me personally, I like to fight GF's where I can pillar jump if they are skilled. Hotentow back caps are my favorite, because TR's are quick, and I can land DF on them all over the place and generally avoid everything if I am patient.
I hope some of this helps, it really is very dependant on so many things, so its hard to say "Do this against GF's and win". I know you understand that.
Remember that as a TR, we personally get to pick when, and where we fight. Use that to your advantage, and be patient. I PvP a lot, like 100% of my playtime, and one of the big mistakes I see people making, in pugs and even in some premades, is getting impatient, and trying to go for the kill early. I catch myself doing this as well.
Most of the stuff I talk about is in 1 vs 1, or 1 vs 2 scenarios, because that is generally what I end up doing in every single PvP match. As a TR, our job, whether you like it or not, in end game pvp is capping, controlling and contesting nodes. So being impatient is never going to go good for us. Have to remember that even if you are fighting on a node for 10 minutes, that's 10 minutes that NO ONE is gaining points from, and hopefully your team is controlling atleast 1 point.
I'm sure many others have good rotations and tips for fighting GF's, but those are mine.
Also can pm me in game anytime, I'm super friendly
Did anyone tried this build in Epic Dungeons PvE ? As i do see its quite good for PvP, im curious how it does work in PvE. Im running my second TR right now,and actually thining about choice between typical "executioner" build, and this one (or generally regen/deflect/defense). Reason is pretty simple - very high DPS rogues are usually glass cannons, they can hit hard, but also die easily when get hit during fight with epic boss. Some people say "you shouldnt get hit, you have stealth/itc", thats true, but still **** happen and i can get hit with AoE not "aimed" at me, i can just be in wrong place at wrong time. It happend yesterday in fight with Epic Irdis, "accidently" she hit me.. for 22k - all my HP pool, so i got literaly oneshotted.
Is such regen/deflect/defense noticable thoughter in PvE fights ? even if it does mean sacrifice of some DPS. I prefer to be rogue what hit with lower DPS but for all fight, than hit once or twice with insane Dmg and die oneshotted
Did anyone tried this build in Epic Dungeons PvE ? As i do see its quite good for PvP, im curious how it does work in PvE. Im running my second TR right now,and actually thining about choice between typical "executioner" build, and this one (or generally regen/deflect/defense). Reason is pretty simple - very high DPS rogues are usually glass cannons, they can hit hard, but also die easily when get hit during fight with epic boss. Some people say "you shouldnt get hit, you have stealth/itc", thats true, but still **** happen and i can get hit with AoE not "aimed" at me, i can just be in wrong place at wrong time. It happend yesterday in fight with Epic Irdis, "accidently" she hit me.. for 22k - all my HP pool, so i got literaly oneshotted.
Is such regen/deflect/defense noticable thoughter in PvE fights ? even if it does mean sacrifice of some DPS. I prefer to be rogue what hit with lower DPS but for all fight, than hit once or twice with insane Dmg and die oneshotted
I use it in PvE as well. The damage is incredible. I've never actually posted my build so here it is, I moved some points around recently to focus more towards PvP orientation.
I chose to go with Con and Cha in my stat rolls.
My reasoning on going with cha. Combat Advantage I feel is very under rated in this game, by many people. The amount of damage bonus from CA as a TR is tremendous, and over looked. I took my points out of Disciple of Strength and put them into Improved Cunning Sneak for longer stealth duration. Now some will have the argument rolling into strength, and using 3/3 disciple is going to give you a constant damage boost, and its true. But, in my experience, now going from that particular build, to this one, and going into CHA, I know how much of a differance over all CA is. My high crits went down barely, like baaarely. Anything I went down with however, is made up for by the CA bonus's. I am still getting 50-60k Lashings in PvE, and its because of Combat Advantage. If they ever allow an initial reroll, I'm definately going to max be maxing out CHA as my highest stat, with this particular build.
Now like I said I havent done any actual "testing" with parsers or math, I'm just going by the feel, and it feels very obvious which one does more DPS. Its very rare that another TR beats me in DPS in any PvE dungeon, and on Draco against our best CW's I'm not very far behind them in DPS.
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Munkey, I just have to thank you for your as usual very informational and well thought out posts. TR's are lucky to count you among their ranks.
I use it in PvE as well. The damage is incredible. I've never actually posted my build so here it is, I moved some points around recently to focus more towards PvP orientation.
I chose to go with Con and Cha in my stat rolls.
My reasoning on going with cha. Combat Advantage I feel is very under rated in this game, by many people. The amount of damage bonus from CA as a TR is tremendous, and over looked. I took my points out of Disciple of Strength and put them into Improved Cunning Sneak for longer stealth duration. Now some will have the argument rolling into strength, and using 3/3 disciple is going to give you a constant damage boost, and its true. But, in my experience, now going from that particular build, to this one, and going into CHA, I know how much of a differance over all CA is. My high crits went down barely, like baaarely. Anything I went down with however, is made up for by the CA bonus's. I am still getting 50-60k Lashings in PvE, and its because of Combat Advantage. If they ever allow an initial reroll, I'm definately going to max be maxing out CHA as my highest stat, with this particular build.
Now like I said I havent done any actual "testing" with parsers or math, I'm just going by the feel, and it feels very obvious which one does more DPS. Its very rare that another TR beats me in DPS in any PvE dungeon, and on Draco against our best CW's I'm not very far behind them in DPS.
Wow, I will say that we think very much the same in terms of character build. I too put my points into Con/Cha. I put all points in Cha, but I do split Con/Dex with the remaining point.
I have been debating the switch from Disciple of Strength to ICS for the longest time, but could never get myself to do it. I think now that you have found success with it, I'm going to make the switch.
I also noticed that you moved 5 points from critical teamwork to speed swindle. How do you like the tradeoff?
"If you don't know who I am, then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly" -- Walter White
I also noticed that you moved 5 points from critical teamwork to speed swindle. How do you like the tradeoff?
I like it alot. My crits havent changed much, as it seems other Tr's are usually running Critical Teamwork, so for me the trade off was great. I'm generally solo contesting points with GWF Sents. Thats the main reason i took it, its hard to get away from a good GWF while contesting a node.
Hehe, I got you to switch your belt :P I still don't know why you don't go with bloodied frostwolf pelt for the neck slot though?
Response: Yeah, it is pretty overpriced when it comes down to it for a small advantage. More of a small refinement for people who can actually afford it type of thing :P
wanted to ask a newbie question. i like crunching numbers and after reading into various TR guides i found it interesting that everyone hands down suggests to go for half-orc or drow (human/tiefling runners up, usually). usually without explaining that decision properly.
and then i found this thread. and now i have a dilemma - halfling or one of the standard races?
i have to explain a bit further: i actually look for a PvE build for my girlfriend. for PvE damage output seems to be more valuable for taking adds off of DCs/CWs, taking down a boss quick and hard etc. dealing with enemies reduces damage, too, in some sense.
now, most guides say that stealth can be maintained most of the time and thus a focus on deflect is not necessary at all.
how true is that?
my GF is rather new into video games (we played a CW/GF team to 60 and are now making our way through sharandar and epic dungeons) and thus probably prefers to stay alive over dealing some more damage (her damage output will probably not be that high in the first place due to inexperience of video games and lack of finger skill in general). but if stealth does that for a rogue, then a focus on damage might be indeed better.
should i advise my GF to go for drow STR/DEX? or is halfling DEX/CHA a very viable option for PvE, too, and maybe even better for beginners?
some thoughts unrelated to number crunching:
- stealth in PvE - how good is it? if enemies don't detect you, they probably go for the CW/DC - and that is not in our interest neither. it's just a redistribution to other members of the team. if they go for the tank, good, but in all other cases i fear stealth might make things worse (of course this is only about the mechanic itself, various bonuses from being in stealth mode - that's a different story)
- damage vs. survivability: so far i made the experience that it's mostly the stronger adds that need to be taken down quickly, not the boss. killing enemies faster prevents them from dealing more damage -> that's good. high survivability is very valuable in the sense that if you die twice on the battle field, it's over. if you never die but progress …. that's at least a win.
- DR/deflect vs. HP: the former increase the effective value of each HP. potions can only be consumed every once in a while and also the cleric heals a fix amount of hit points. it has its merits, thus….
numbers:
it shocked me to learn that deflect is way worse than DR. not only is it a game of chance, no, it does only deflect the damage partially. 30% DR is better than 30% deflect with 100% deflect severity. thus it is WAY better than 30% deflect with 75 (or even 50) percent severity. but DR is not the issue when it comes to ability or race choices. damage is. in PvP, 50% DR is as valuable as +100% damage. thus, points in STR decrease in value as STR rises, while points in DEX increase. unfortunately that increase/decrease happens slowly and damage is ahead in the beginning.
increasing the damage bonus from 30% to 31% is a relative increase of 131/130, less than 1.01. increasing DR from 30% to 31% is much better, 70/69, more than 1.01. for PvP, 40% DR is much better than +40%: the first negates an incoming damage increase of 100/60-1=66.7%, the latter provides only 40%, however.
but again, we talk about deflect. with severity, 40% deflect translate to something like a rather random 30% DR, which is only 100/70-1=42.8%.
now …. if better and better gear comes into the world and also with the introduction of the dread ring boons (+3% deflect severity), the value of deflect rises.
….
another fact about half-orcs to those who think that +5% crit severity is enormous: it's not. it's not bad, though. but assuming 50% crit chance and about 100% base crit severity (i heard that it rises above 100% easy for rogues), a non-orc deals 3 units of damage every two hits on average. a half-orc crits harder, dealing 3.05 units of damage, that is a relative increase of 3.05/3=1.01667 or 1.667%. the higher the crit severity, the less the bonus. the higher the crit chance, though, the higher the value of this racial bonus.
in PvP this is clearly outmatched by a halfling's 3% deflect, as even with 78% deflect severity, this evaluates to AT LEAST a 2.34% increase in survivability.
what else…. ah, drows. with the high attack speed dark fire will be there a lot. and that should result in lots of bonus damage, actually….
starting stats:
16/16/12/10/10/10
while it is nice to boost primary stats as much as possible, i do like the 16/15/13/11/11/9 array better in most cases. it decreases the value of one of your beloved stats by one and increases your third choice stat by one. to make things fair, the 4th stat is boosted, too, which, in this case, increases recovery. topping off, max HP go up slightly.
for a super-focused deflect build the first one might be better, as 1% more CHA means more than 1% relative deflect increase. not sure that 1% (once you reach high values where it actually matters, and where its value rises above 1% even with deflect severity of 75/78% only)) does make up for the 1% damage loss (which, AAMOF, is less than 1%, relatively speaking), 1% RSI loss (also less than 1%) and the 2% HP gain (also less than 2%). i assume that no….
same with a STR based build: even if deflect is kept rather low and 1% CHA is close to worth only say 0.8-0.85%, the RSI and HP boost should be nice...
i don't really have any final wisdom, i just try to figure out whether i should recommend my GF to go for a STR/DEX build (probably half-orc...) or a DEX/CHA build (halfling).
any advice is well appreciated, as is any new insight on game mechanics etc. that might shed a clearer light on the whole matter….
Some things to consider: This build was designed with the intent of pvp usage. Yes, damage resist is more effective, but in pvp there are lots of way your DR can be mitigated. Deflect on the other hand, will always remain constant. Also, most of the deflect in this build comes from stacking it in the form of the CHA stat. There is no stat that offers DR bonus, hence, the idea of deflect stacking comes in :P
Also, I am not sure how you came up with those numbers for half orc damage. Just think of it as 50% crit chance, and then ur gaining +5% damage every other hit, hence, +2.5% damage total. I have no idea how you ended up saying they get a +1.6% boost from it.
Also, if you want the most survivability in pvp or pve, the best option is to go with high HP and stack regen. With max HP rogue and regen right now it is possible to get close to healing 2k hp per tick.
Another reason people tend to go with Halfling is for the 10% cc resist in pvp.
Just some quick thoughts. Hopefully others will have more elaborate and informative responses. The wall of text is too scary for me though...
I am glad you were willing to put in the time and effort to go through the math and research for your GF. Most of the guys I know wouldn't delve this much into the math and specifics for their GFs.
Now, from what I picked up from your post, you want a PvE build that will do damage, but be survivable. The main thing about this style of play is that it can be easily achieved with almost any initial race and roll. I am a numbers guy myself and love to crunch the numbers to the uttermost. However, there also needs to be a practical application and common sense view of what the numbers imply. For example, 1% extra damage is nothing. If I did 10000 damage in one hit, an additional strength for the 1% damage increase would make the 10000 into 10100, which is relatively little and can be easily made up for with less than a single auto attack. Likewise, more deflect simply gives the player a higher percentage chance of getting a clutch damage reduction. So, while going for a deflect build would result in higher deflection than a strength build, let's say by 13%, this is relatively small in the long run.
Now, what does matter is use of stealth, as you mentioned. Many guides say that high deflection is not necessary because stealth technically reduces the damage directed toward us. This is true, to an extent. When in stealth, the enemy will not directly attack us, though AoE moves are still a concern. So, this equates to taking less damage. The problem with this is stealth has to be used skillfully to be maximally effective, so in the case of your GF, we cannot depend on maximum skill to be the sole point of survivability for her. This is where the issue of what initial roll seems to come in, but I argue that it does not really matter.
The greatest chunk of damage a player will output is determined by the player's skill, which can be split up into subcategories: positioning, encounter rotation, and responsiveness. Encounter rotation makes a large difference in dps. Small differences in the initial roll of a toon does not make nearly as large an impact as what the player actually does with the toon. For example, slotting impossible to catch increases survivability in both PvE and PvP greatly, and ItC is available any initial roll.
So, in my honest opinion, it really depends on what she wants to play. Does she like the looks of a half-orc? Halfling? Now, if she doesn't really mind, and the goal is to maximize damage while surviving, and the player is not already technically skilled in the arts of the TR, then stick with an initial roll around the Halfling. This is, of course, only my opinion. The Half Orc will do more damage, plain and simple, but that can be made up for with practice. Besides, the loss in damage is not incredibly large, and I am not a proponent of supreme min/maxing. Takes the fun out of, well, having fun.
As for insights: 5% crit severity is not a lot, yes, but with the amount of critting the TR will do, it adds up over time, especially with Duelist's Flurry. On paper, it does not seem to make much of a difference, but in use, there's a noticeable difference. Also, keep in mind the movement bonus the half orc gets. That's also good for the TR. I don't know how darkfire compares, but I imagine it might end up netting more damage on bosses (assuming it works properly).
As for deflect and DR: It is true that straight up DR is better than deflect, but not as much as the numbers you give show. Deflection is better in PvP than in PvE because players will have Armor Pen that will reduce Dr, whereas deflect does not get diminished. So, deflect is pretty nice to have in PvP. Also, 50% DR is only a 100% higher damage increase in comparison to 0% DR, which is not going to happen. Players will have armor equipped that give DR, some more than others. Let's say the average was 30% DR. 50% DR is a 66% increase from 30%, sure, but it doesn't net to tons more damage because armor pen reduces DR.
Deflection is powerful, especially at high percentages and for the TR. However, it is only needed up to a certain point. I have around 25% deflection on my PvP TR (I'm aiming for 30%, but 5% doesn't make much of a difference), but the majority of my survivability does not come from deflect; it comes from regen and HP. HP is a must have. Regen is strong in PvP and okay to have in PvE. With more HP, my DR is more effective in preserving my life. It's also easier to build more HP than more defense/deflect. Lifesteal is also a good PvE stat that will become more useful with the Dread boon that makes lifesteal even better.
As I said earlier, in the end, player style is everything. I do not care for min/maxing so much because it doesn't really make much of a difference in gameplay. There are only a few builds that I would suggest min/maxing for, like the Sentinel GWF or hyper-tanky, con/dex cw. If that even exists.
Anyway, I'd go with the Halfling, but that's just me. It just doesn't make much of a difference in endgame, so if she wants more damage, recommend half orc. Survivability, halfing. Both of my TR's are human, and I do damage/survive just fine.
I hope this helps. :cool:
EDIT: Just noticed godlysoul posted before I finished. Don't worry, I tackle long walls of text with great academic fervor. My avatar isn't the amazing thinker dude guy for no reason Yes, high regen and hp (not related to the starting rolls, based all on gear here) is probably the best way to get strong survivability.
@godlysoul:
many thanks, that helps
i find the regen mechanism quite interesting, actually. in general, if you look at most games, the devs just put rather random numbers and then see how it fares, without thinking of exploits ahead. i have the feeling in NW this is completely different and the devs are quite careful of how they implement things. i like that 30% more recovery really means 30% more and not cooldown speed -30%, which equates to 3/7 or about 42% more recovery.
1.67%: i look at it in a *relative* way. 2.5% more damage is a correct statement, but it has to be used with care. dealing 205 dam instead of 200 is 2.5% damage increase - but so is 2005 instead of 2000 - if the base damage is 200 but we got 900% more damage already from another source. but in the second example, obviously, the 2.5% more damage are so meager one would not care to get them. there, the 2.5% more dam are actually +0.25% more, looked at in a relative way.
so back to the example: if a human deals 100 damage with a normal strike and a critical strike with 40% chance, which has 100% severity, then his expected damage output per round is 0.6*100+0.4*200=140. if we replace the human with half-orc (assuming that stats stay the same … which they wouldn't of course), then it is 0.6*100+0.4*205=142. considering the base damage of 100, this means 5%*0.4=2% more. but looking at it in a more mathematical way the gain is 142/140-1, which is about 1.4% (if you replace the 40% crit chance by 50%, you will get 1.67%). the relative number is something that completely depends on all your final gear and compares a character with that gear and feature A with a char that has the same gear but feature B.
so if you would already know ahead that you will carry gear that gives 500% crit severity, then the bonus from half-orc becomes super boring.
of course i assume that the creators do use all those values additively. according to the wiki they do. a mathematician would probably suggest to use e^x-1 instead, where x is the sum of all bonuses (or better the natural logarithms of these) - in this case 2% more would really mean 2% more, no matter the gear (though we have to be careful with notation as 2% means 2/100, while e^0.02-1 is close to 0.02, but not the same).
ps: banks also use the e-function when they calculate your interest rates - so if they grant you 5% interest, they actually grant you (ln 0.05) but they use e^x - after 1 year you get 5%, but if you pick up your money after 6 months, they grant you e^(1/2 * ln 5) interest, which is slightly less than 2.5%.
….
probably i get too geeky here (or nerdy? always mix them up :P)
@pingchoncere: thanks mate, yes, i guess that helps quite a bit. i know that 1% is minor, but i always think that every little bit helps. assume a not so skilled group dungeoneering, with a wipeout just before they darn manage to kill the boss. maybe 3% more damage output might have killed the evil add before he kills the DC. so… yeah, it mostly not matters, and this is one out of 100 dungeon runs, but ….
as for 1 STR vs 1 CHA: i wouldn't care too much about 1% damage difference, but depending on the stat selection this is later a choice of 8-10% more damage vs 8-10% more deflect (end stats: 24/24/14 vs 24/14/24). now the bonuses are a bit less negligible. but i guess i agree, i shouldn't bother that much…
i just realize that you covered that in your respond…. sorry *blush*
so i guess i suggest her to play whatever she likes the most and will then help her getting it done if she goes drow/halfling (i guess drow will be her choice), then i take her down the deflect route, for anything else i take her down the damage route, i think.
your post helped a lot. of course, playstyle is the thing that matters by FAR the most. i am also not that good myself. i play a CW so far and while i try to do things that synergize nicely (mass damage routine is placing AS, get close to center, cast icy terrain, CoI on one add, chill strike if i manage to handle all those things and finally steal time; half frozen and half stunned enemies on the plate for AoE - but i never pay attention to e.g. eye of the storm, which could increase my damage output a lot….), there are still maaaany things to learn. probably the game is too fast for me
one thing i still try to understand: combat advantage. CHA gives bonuses to that, too. and i assume a good rogue can be in CA a lot, so that bonus should actually apply in most cases, too, right? but is wiki right and CA is 15% more damage and CHA increases those 15%, i.e., 10% more CA damage makes CA 16.5% bonus damage?
Ping pretty much covered what I was going to say. I'll add a bit of my own.
Many of you that have read my posts and small guides(walkthroughs rather), know that I don't do the numbers. I have gone strictly off how I play, vs what works for me in PvP and the results of PvE.
TR's in general, when played correctly, are already a high survival character. Because of our core mechanics, and particular abilities we may run. You are looking for a build that suits your Girlfriend in PvE for DPS. So I would recommend any variation of the Executioner tree because it is relatively easy to play, and pretty straight forward. As compared to say a Perma stealth type build, or a hybrid, which is a bit more tricky to be good at.
Personaly, if I was building a straight forward DPS PvE TR, I would max out Cha and Str. With my own testing of different types of builds that I have been using. Combat Advantage damage overall is much better then having straight Strength, and having them both, is significantly better then not. Like I said I didn't do any number crunching, just went off production value and many hours of PvP, and PvE testing.
I don't feel when building a PvE TR that health is necessary. That of course is personal preference. But if you want to maximize damage, you need to not worry about health. Playstyle is what will give you the survivability. If you get one shot by a boss, having 26k health, or 21k health isn't going to matter.
Building a PvP type TR, and building a good one however is a much different ball game, and a totally different topic.
crunching numbers is nice, but in the end one needs to try how various ideas work, and i trust someone with experience much more than just numbers
the problem sometimes is, to determine the experience of that person. anyone can write a guide and pretend to be an expert. i don't even think that some pretend, most just *think* they are experts. but even if someone defeats all T2 dungeons or is doing awesome in PvP, that is not truly enough. that person should have tried various play-styles (if you always play a half-orc TR with STR/DEX focus, then even if you do great, you might have been better off with a drow DEX/CHA - without ever knowing it) and should be immersed enough into the game to know all other classes at least a bit, too, for seeing the big picture.
and if that is all the case, experience is better than number crunching. numbers don't explain everything…
you would max out STR and CHA?? the crit from DEX outvalues the STR bonus if severity is 100% … that sounds strange to me. i could understand that CA damage is overlooked and thus the value of CHA trumps that of STR, but DEX should trump STR anytime - or not?
crunching numbers is nice, but in the end one needs to try how various ideas work, and i trust someone with experience much more than just numbers
the problem sometimes is, to determine the experience of that person. anyone can write a guide and pretend to be an expert. i don't even think that some pretend, most just *think* they are experts. but even if someone defeats all T2 dungeons or is doing awesome in PvP, that is not truly enough. that person should have tried various play-styles (if you always play a half-orc TR with STR/DEX focus, then even if you do great, you might have been better off with a drow DEX/CHA - without ever knowing it) and should be immersed enough into the game to know all other classes at least a bit, too, for seeing the big picture.
and if that is all the case, experience is better than number crunching. numbers don't explain everything…
you would max out STR and CHA?? the crit from DEX outvalues the STR bonus if severity is 100% … that sounds strange to me. i could understand that CA damage is overlooked and thus the value of CHA trumps that of STR, but DEX should trump STR anytime - or not?
Like I said I haven't done any number crunching, and I feel Neverwinter doesn't quite play with the same rules as it should when conscerning number crunching anyways.
So..that being said..Why I feel, and how noticeable it was for me I believe is because...
Crit can be achieved by buffs and gear, and is reachable to 50+%, without rolling into it., and..crit is a % chance(roll of the dice if you will)
Where as Strength, is an inate damage increase overall, and when played right, a TR can give themselves Combat A Damage 90%+ of the time, and with placement, and other class's giving CA as well, its more likely in a good group, or even a bad one for that matter, that a TR can achieve CA 100% of the time while fighting, and the increase in damage from going into Charisma, greatly increased my overall DPS..because of this fact.
Could I be proven wrong by way of math? Probably?..but like I said..I went strictly off feel. I was the standard STR/DEX build, then DEX/CHA, now of course I'm totally different with Con/Cha but that's besides the point. I got the most out of my dps when I was STR/CHA for the above reasons.
no, math can not completely disprove your experience
both STR damage increase and DEX damage increase become less and less valuable the more you get. if you already get 100% bonus damage by strength (damage multiplier of 2), then 1% more is 2.01/2=1.005, thus 0.5% more damage.
so if you ONLY stack STR or ONLY DEX, then the return becomes less and less.
simple example: if you have 100 points to distribute among STR and DEX, then if you put them all in STR you deal 200% damage all the time, if you put them in DEX you crit all the time and with severity 100% this would be 200% damage all the time.
if you distribute them evenly, then you only crit 50% of the time and only deal 150% standard damage, but every time you crit, you deal 300% damage. on average that would be 225% damage.
your experience is quite good there and i actually made a mistake there. if you get 50% crit already via gear, then 1% more crit increases efficiency only by 1.51/1.5=1.0067, i.e. about 0.67%. nothing from gear increases damage AFAIK, so … the first STR point is worth 1% indeed, and the 10th STR point still gives about 0.9% (almost 1%) damage increase… so unless it additively(!) stacks with damage from power or other stats, STR gives you more….
there are some specials from the feats, like critical overrun, that bonus makes crit more viable as does anything that increases crit severity (with 75% crit sev the 0.67% relative increase in crit chance is worth even less; one needs about 150% chance crit sev to get it back to 1%…)
again, no final wisdom, but probably going STR is not a bad idea, but DEX should still be a very close competitor.
Cool, I hope I helped you a little bit atleast. Your knowledge on the number crunching far surpasses anything I could possibly understand honestly, heh. So feel is what I have to go by, been doing it for many many years and hasn't failed me yet!
In all honestly a very large majority of anyones DPS, comes down to playstyle.
Kinda like if someone today put me in a 8.0 second Drag car, the chances of me actually getting 8 seconds are slim to pretty much not happening.
So you can build an 8 second car, the driver needs to do the rest.
As long as your GF is having fun, and by the way you talk I'm assuming you have some knowledge on mmo's and they are all pretty similar. Generally if you are good at one, you'll be good at the next, playstyle is playstyle, so you'll be able to teach her how to be effective in a group and she'll rock out the dmg. As TR's that's what we do best =P
On a side note. I went with Hafling on my TR because I think they look awesome, I didn't even look at the racial bonus's as I made her when I was hammered. Turns out I got lucky because all I do is pvp and she comes with great perks
Comments
I am just curious if he was thinking on different options. I know quite a fiew people who have already switched out of there Tenes to master something different. I don't think its going to be "huge". But it is going to be significant, depending on who you are playing. Right now..they ignore everything. If they implement the change, it wont. That's like Night and Day difference "I think".
We'll have to see
Lets not turn this into a Tenebrous topic, theres already too many =P
dat ^
anyhow, i am kinda bored of TR tbh, 5 months playing it, maybe i will revive my Diablo 3 Demon Hunter times on the new Ranger class and stop playing TR as my main
Meatball - Control Wizard
Criminal Cheater - Hunter Ranger
<Enemy Team> Guild Leader.
I actually wasn't questioning your skill or word. I also have ftwo def slots with radiants 7/8. I also have three darks in offensive 8/8/7, and am right at 19.5 arm pen. I also use belt/neck with armpen. So if I can increase my ho/armpen then I wou liketo see my options. I'm not lookifor proof, just an ability score layout and gear.
Also, I will be posting some test results for deflect .
This also retains 45% crit, 20.5% armpen, and 2477 power
26 strikes, 11 were deflected and 80%+ damage avoided on these strikes.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 216 (1781) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1405 (1737) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1451 (1794) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Thorn deals 1860 (2300) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 392 (3854) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 215 (1771) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1466 (1813) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 223 (1837) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1488 (1841) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1421 (1757) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 2625 (3868) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Thorn deals 1783 (2205) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1475 (1824) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1406 (1738) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1479 (1830) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 211 (1739) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 2732 (4026) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 221 (1822) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1431 (1770) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1448 (1791) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 1484 (1835) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 384 (3769) Physical to you with Mark of Thorns.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 217 (1788) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 223 (1839) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 222 (1827) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Regen gives 1262 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Thorn deals 207 (1708) Physical to you with Melee Attack.
Blacksheep@donblacksheep
i got 1970 armor pen using full skulker set + skulker daggers + 2x seal exec + berserker of youth neck/belt.
its exactly 20.0% armor pen, with no darks at all.
My regen ticks are 1489 or something like that if im not wrong, i got 9.0% regen exactly, and 31.8k life.
Thats with 7 offense slots, and all of them are tenes.
I was about to get the fomorians daggers and so, but dude, the diference is so insignificant compared to the CN daggers that i have, plus i lose 1k life and tons of armor pen, so well, at least for now ill stay with the skulkers.
I saw that there is a new cool dagger "non set bonus" ones, with some very high wep dmg and armor pen, etc, coming on the expansion.. maybe that could beat skulker.
Meatball - Control Wizard
Criminal Cheater - Hunter Ranger
<Enemy Team> Guild Leader.
I was using my GF Boggs at the time and watched him take down two or more of my teammates with ease.
**On a side note, are the regen rings you're wearing the ones that no longer drop?
Thanks for the words
The rings I'm wearing are purchased with Pegasus seals, from the Pegasus vendor.
7 seals a piece.
Run spellplague normal verson during DD(not T1, just normal), and you'll get all the seals you need in 1 run.
By going with the Fomorian 2/2 set over Skulkers daggers 2/2
You will Lose 784 health.
You will Gain: 42 damage
512 Power
466 Crit
206 Recovery
6 ArP
10 Lifesteal
In my opinion, the Fomorian is by far the better choice. 784 less health, will be like what..30 less regen? I'm no good with numbers, but I'm assuming its very minor.
First off, let me just apologize my accusations in my first reply, I had no idea that Constitution would have contributed so much to HP. I also didnt think about the skulker daggers for AP. In fact, I'm glad you did chime in because it allowed me to explore more options in reworking my ability score to obtain better results.
I use 2/2 Fomorian Fabled, 4/4 skulkers, 2 rings of pres, searing belt, bloodied frostwolf pelt. I also took your advice on more HP and changed my enchants around a bit. 4 defensive slots 2 Radiant 8's, 2 Silvery 8's. I also spec Toughness, and Lucky Skirmisher, and HP/deflect from boons.
After reworking my gear/enchants, I ran several offensive tests. The first was with Nimble blade in an Executioner build. That proved to be a bad choice over critical teamwork or anything for that matter. I also did several stealth combat logs to better understand the damage increase from combat advantage. The damage increase quite significant. I dont think i will ever understand the sacrifice of 25% stealth increase by moving to a 2/2 set to obtain +250 of any stat, especially when skulkers already has high HP, Arm Pen, and LifeSteal. And with so many of the mainstay feats feeding off of stealth, such as Underhanded Tactics and Brutal Backstab.
I was also using 'First Strike', but found that Overrun Critical seemed to place an opener as high or higher if you CoS the target to obtain the buff first. So i switched in tenacious concealment with skillful infiltrator.
I Finally ran a PUG at 3am to see how all these changes went. I used SS/Lashing/Impact Whirlwind/Shocking-LA
Now granted it was a PUG, but placed top with 17kills, 0 deaths, 25 assists. Hopefully, I'll get a good, consistent group together soon and see you guys out in the field.
-Noxis
I have it, and its amazing. No cool down that I've noticed
PvP in general is very vague, it all depends on the current situation; where you are in the battlefield, is it 1 vs 1, what skills are you personally running, how skilled/geared is the player you are facing, your ping, their ping, lots of factors.
My normal set up now is; ItC, Impact, Lashing. In premades Itc, Impact(trade out for PoB situational), and Shadow Strike.
Generally speaking most people who play PvP aren't that good skillwise, and most aren't built for PvP.
I use Duelist Flurry in PvP, and its key imo, to fighting GF's. It absolutely destroys there shield and applies dots, whether large or small it doesn't matter, dmg is dmg. So I will catch them with DF, immediately use Lashing, then dodge out. Start my DF twist, then either jump into them with Animation, or allow them to bulrush or FS into it. Usually they tend to run right into it. Then I'll Pop ITC, do another DF, Lashing, generally if they aren't dead already, they are usually dead now.
That's against your normal GF's. They will usually burn there encounters thinking they can hit you while you are in DF animation, so sometimes I don't even dodge out cuz I see them waste there encounters, and I just face tank and continue using DF, ITC, and Lashing till there dead.
Against skilled GF's of course its very different. One major thing to watch for is there Damage Shield. Not sure the name, but it incircles them with Yellow Short swords. Smart ones will allow you to set up DF on them, and pop that damage shield when you go into animation on DF, and are unable to dodge out, and end up owning yourself, then they will FS or BR you.
Some pop it early, anticipating you will hit them not knowing. <---I see this all the time, dont hit them at all during this..
When I talked about situational, for me personally, I like to fight GF's where I can pillar jump if they are skilled. Hotentow back caps are my favorite, because TR's are quick, and I can land DF on them all over the place and generally avoid everything if I am patient.
I hope some of this helps, it really is very dependant on so many things, so its hard to say "Do this against GF's and win". I know you understand that.
Remember that as a TR, we personally get to pick when, and where we fight. Use that to your advantage, and be patient. I PvP a lot, like 100% of my playtime, and one of the big mistakes I see people making, in pugs and even in some premades, is getting impatient, and trying to go for the kill early. I catch myself doing this as well.
Most of the stuff I talk about is in 1 vs 1, or 1 vs 2 scenarios, because that is generally what I end up doing in every single PvP match. As a TR, our job, whether you like it or not, in end game pvp is capping, controlling and contesting nodes. So being impatient is never going to go good for us. Have to remember that even if you are fighting on a node for 10 minutes, that's 10 minutes that NO ONE is gaining points from, and hopefully your team is controlling atleast 1 point.
I'm sure many others have good rotations and tips for fighting GF's, but those are mine.
Also can pm me in game anytime, I'm super friendly
Alysin Chains@munkey81
Did anyone tried this build in Epic Dungeons PvE ? As i do see its quite good for PvP, im curious how it does work in PvE. Im running my second TR right now,and actually thining about choice between typical "executioner" build, and this one (or generally regen/deflect/defense). Reason is pretty simple - very high DPS rogues are usually glass cannons, they can hit hard, but also die easily when get hit during fight with epic boss. Some people say "you shouldnt get hit, you have stealth/itc", thats true, but still **** happen and i can get hit with AoE not "aimed" at me, i can just be in wrong place at wrong time. It happend yesterday in fight with Epic Irdis, "accidently" she hit me.. for 22k - all my HP pool, so i got literaly oneshotted.
Is such regen/deflect/defense noticable thoughter in PvE fights ? even if it does mean sacrifice of some DPS. I prefer to be rogue what hit with lower DPS but for all fight, than hit once or twice with insane Dmg and die oneshotted
I use it in PvE as well. The damage is incredible. I've never actually posted my build so here it is, I moved some points around recently to focus more towards PvP orientation.
I chose to go with Con and Cha in my stat rolls.
My reasoning on going with cha. Combat Advantage I feel is very under rated in this game, by many people. The amount of damage bonus from CA as a TR is tremendous, and over looked. I took my points out of Disciple of Strength and put them into Improved Cunning Sneak for longer stealth duration. Now some will have the argument rolling into strength, and using 3/3 disciple is going to give you a constant damage boost, and its true. But, in my experience, now going from that particular build, to this one, and going into CHA, I know how much of a differance over all CA is. My high crits went down barely, like baaarely. Anything I went down with however, is made up for by the CA bonus's. I am still getting 50-60k Lashings in PvE, and its because of Combat Advantage. If they ever allow an initial reroll, I'm definately going to max be maxing out CHA as my highest stat, with this particular build.
Now like I said I havent done any actual "testing" with parsers or math, I'm just going by the feel, and it feels very obvious which one does more DPS. Its very rare that another TR beats me in DPS in any PvE dungeon, and on Draco against our best CW's I'm not very far behind them in DPS.
Thanks for the kind works mctankypants, glad you like my posts!
Wow, I will say that we think very much the same in terms of character build. I too put my points into Con/Cha. I put all points in Cha, but I do split Con/Dex with the remaining point.
I have been debating the switch from Disciple of Strength to ICS for the longest time, but could never get myself to do it. I think now that you have found success with it, I'm going to make the switch.
I also noticed that you moved 5 points from critical teamwork to speed swindle. How do you like the tradeoff?
I like it alot. My crits havent changed much, as it seems other Tr's are usually running Critical Teamwork, so for me the trade off was great. I'm generally solo contesting points with GWF Sents. Thats the main reason i took it, its hard to get away from a good GWF while contesting a node.
Response: Yeah, it is pretty overpriced when it comes down to it for a small advantage. More of a small refinement for people who can actually afford it type of thing :P
Umm..I think I tried too, but either couldn't find one, or decided it was too pricey for my blood. Cant remember -=)
wanted to ask a newbie question. i like crunching numbers and after reading into various TR guides i found it interesting that everyone hands down suggests to go for half-orc or drow (human/tiefling runners up, usually). usually without explaining that decision properly.
and then i found this thread. and now i have a dilemma - halfling or one of the standard races?
i have to explain a bit further: i actually look for a PvE build for my girlfriend. for PvE damage output seems to be more valuable for taking adds off of DCs/CWs, taking down a boss quick and hard etc. dealing with enemies reduces damage, too, in some sense.
now, most guides say that stealth can be maintained most of the time and thus a focus on deflect is not necessary at all.
how true is that?
my GF is rather new into video games (we played a CW/GF team to 60 and are now making our way through sharandar and epic dungeons) and thus probably prefers to stay alive over dealing some more damage (her damage output will probably not be that high in the first place due to inexperience of video games and lack of finger skill in general). but if stealth does that for a rogue, then a focus on damage might be indeed better.
should i advise my GF to go for drow STR/DEX? or is halfling DEX/CHA a very viable option for PvE, too, and maybe even better for beginners?
some thoughts unrelated to number crunching:
- stealth in PvE - how good is it? if enemies don't detect you, they probably go for the CW/DC - and that is not in our interest neither. it's just a redistribution to other members of the team. if they go for the tank, good, but in all other cases i fear stealth might make things worse (of course this is only about the mechanic itself, various bonuses from being in stealth mode - that's a different story)
- damage vs. survivability: so far i made the experience that it's mostly the stronger adds that need to be taken down quickly, not the boss. killing enemies faster prevents them from dealing more damage -> that's good. high survivability is very valuable in the sense that if you die twice on the battle field, it's over. if you never die but progress …. that's at least a win.
- DR/deflect vs. HP: the former increase the effective value of each HP. potions can only be consumed every once in a while and also the cleric heals a fix amount of hit points. it has its merits, thus….
numbers:
it shocked me to learn that deflect is way worse than DR. not only is it a game of chance, no, it does only deflect the damage partially. 30% DR is better than 30% deflect with 100% deflect severity. thus it is WAY better than 30% deflect with 75 (or even 50) percent severity. but DR is not the issue when it comes to ability or race choices. damage is. in PvP, 50% DR is as valuable as +100% damage. thus, points in STR decrease in value as STR rises, while points in DEX increase. unfortunately that increase/decrease happens slowly and damage is ahead in the beginning.
increasing the damage bonus from 30% to 31% is a relative increase of 131/130, less than 1.01. increasing DR from 30% to 31% is much better, 70/69, more than 1.01. for PvP, 40% DR is much better than +40%: the first negates an incoming damage increase of 100/60-1=66.7%, the latter provides only 40%, however.
but again, we talk about deflect. with severity, 40% deflect translate to something like a rather random 30% DR, which is only 100/70-1=42.8%.
now …. if better and better gear comes into the world and also with the introduction of the dread ring boons (+3% deflect severity), the value of deflect rises.
….
another fact about half-orcs to those who think that +5% crit severity is enormous: it's not. it's not bad, though. but assuming 50% crit chance and about 100% base crit severity (i heard that it rises above 100% easy for rogues), a non-orc deals 3 units of damage every two hits on average. a half-orc crits harder, dealing 3.05 units of damage, that is a relative increase of 3.05/3=1.01667 or 1.667%. the higher the crit severity, the less the bonus. the higher the crit chance, though, the higher the value of this racial bonus.
in PvP this is clearly outmatched by a halfling's 3% deflect, as even with 78% deflect severity, this evaluates to AT LEAST a 2.34% increase in survivability.
what else…. ah, drows. with the high attack speed dark fire will be there a lot. and that should result in lots of bonus damage, actually….
starting stats:
16/16/12/10/10/10
while it is nice to boost primary stats as much as possible, i do like the 16/15/13/11/11/9 array better in most cases. it decreases the value of one of your beloved stats by one and increases your third choice stat by one. to make things fair, the 4th stat is boosted, too, which, in this case, increases recovery. topping off, max HP go up slightly.
for a super-focused deflect build the first one might be better, as 1% more CHA means more than 1% relative deflect increase. not sure that 1% (once you reach high values where it actually matters, and where its value rises above 1% even with deflect severity of 75/78% only)) does make up for the 1% damage loss (which, AAMOF, is less than 1%, relatively speaking), 1% RSI loss (also less than 1%) and the 2% HP gain (also less than 2%). i assume that no….
same with a STR based build: even if deflect is kept rather low and 1% CHA is close to worth only say 0.8-0.85%, the RSI and HP boost should be nice...
i don't really have any final wisdom, i just try to figure out whether i should recommend my GF to go for a STR/DEX build (probably half-orc...) or a DEX/CHA build (halfling).
any advice is well appreciated, as is any new insight on game mechanics etc. that might shed a clearer light on the whole matter….
Also, I am not sure how you came up with those numbers for half orc damage. Just think of it as 50% crit chance, and then ur gaining +5% damage every other hit, hence, +2.5% damage total. I have no idea how you ended up saying they get a +1.6% boost from it.
Also, if you want the most survivability in pvp or pve, the best option is to go with high HP and stack regen. With max HP rogue and regen right now it is possible to get close to healing 2k hp per tick.
Another reason people tend to go with Halfling is for the 10% cc resist in pvp.
Just some quick thoughts. Hopefully others will have more elaborate and informative responses. The wall of text is too scary for me though...
I am glad you were willing to put in the time and effort to go through the math and research for your GF. Most of the guys I know wouldn't delve this much into the math and specifics for their GFs.
Now, from what I picked up from your post, you want a PvE build that will do damage, but be survivable. The main thing about this style of play is that it can be easily achieved with almost any initial race and roll. I am a numbers guy myself and love to crunch the numbers to the uttermost. However, there also needs to be a practical application and common sense view of what the numbers imply. For example, 1% extra damage is nothing. If I did 10000 damage in one hit, an additional strength for the 1% damage increase would make the 10000 into 10100, which is relatively little and can be easily made up for with less than a single auto attack. Likewise, more deflect simply gives the player a higher percentage chance of getting a clutch damage reduction. So, while going for a deflect build would result in higher deflection than a strength build, let's say by 13%, this is relatively small in the long run.
Now, what does matter is use of stealth, as you mentioned. Many guides say that high deflection is not necessary because stealth technically reduces the damage directed toward us. This is true, to an extent. When in stealth, the enemy will not directly attack us, though AoE moves are still a concern. So, this equates to taking less damage. The problem with this is stealth has to be used skillfully to be maximally effective, so in the case of your GF, we cannot depend on maximum skill to be the sole point of survivability for her. This is where the issue of what initial roll seems to come in, but I argue that it does not really matter.
The greatest chunk of damage a player will output is determined by the player's skill, which can be split up into subcategories: positioning, encounter rotation, and responsiveness. Encounter rotation makes a large difference in dps. Small differences in the initial roll of a toon does not make nearly as large an impact as what the player actually does with the toon. For example, slotting impossible to catch increases survivability in both PvE and PvP greatly, and ItC is available any initial roll.
So, in my honest opinion, it really depends on what she wants to play. Does she like the looks of a half-orc? Halfling? Now, if she doesn't really mind, and the goal is to maximize damage while surviving, and the player is not already technically skilled in the arts of the TR, then stick with an initial roll around the Halfling. This is, of course, only my opinion. The Half Orc will do more damage, plain and simple, but that can be made up for with practice. Besides, the loss in damage is not incredibly large, and I am not a proponent of supreme min/maxing. Takes the fun out of, well, having fun.
As for insights: 5% crit severity is not a lot, yes, but with the amount of critting the TR will do, it adds up over time, especially with Duelist's Flurry. On paper, it does not seem to make much of a difference, but in use, there's a noticeable difference. Also, keep in mind the movement bonus the half orc gets. That's also good for the TR. I don't know how darkfire compares, but I imagine it might end up netting more damage on bosses (assuming it works properly).
As for deflect and DR: It is true that straight up DR is better than deflect, but not as much as the numbers you give show. Deflection is better in PvP than in PvE because players will have Armor Pen that will reduce Dr, whereas deflect does not get diminished. So, deflect is pretty nice to have in PvP. Also, 50% DR is only a 100% higher damage increase in comparison to 0% DR, which is not going to happen. Players will have armor equipped that give DR, some more than others. Let's say the average was 30% DR. 50% DR is a 66% increase from 30%, sure, but it doesn't net to tons more damage because armor pen reduces DR.
Deflection is powerful, especially at high percentages and for the TR. However, it is only needed up to a certain point. I have around 25% deflection on my PvP TR (I'm aiming for 30%, but 5% doesn't make much of a difference), but the majority of my survivability does not come from deflect; it comes from regen and HP. HP is a must have. Regen is strong in PvP and okay to have in PvE. With more HP, my DR is more effective in preserving my life. It's also easier to build more HP than more defense/deflect. Lifesteal is also a good PvE stat that will become more useful with the Dread boon that makes lifesteal even better.
As I said earlier, in the end, player style is everything. I do not care for min/maxing so much because it doesn't really make much of a difference in gameplay. There are only a few builds that I would suggest min/maxing for, like the Sentinel GWF or hyper-tanky, con/dex cw. If that even exists.
Anyway, I'd go with the Halfling, but that's just me. It just doesn't make much of a difference in endgame, so if she wants more damage, recommend half orc. Survivability, halfing. Both of my TR's are human, and I do damage/survive just fine.
I hope this helps. :cool:
EDIT: Just noticed godlysoul posted before I finished. Don't worry, I tackle long walls of text with great academic fervor. My avatar isn't the amazing thinker dude guy for no reason
many thanks, that helps
i find the regen mechanism quite interesting, actually. in general, if you look at most games, the devs just put rather random numbers and then see how it fares, without thinking of exploits ahead. i have the feeling in NW this is completely different and the devs are quite careful of how they implement things. i like that 30% more recovery really means 30% more and not cooldown speed -30%, which equates to 3/7 or about 42% more recovery.
1.67%: i look at it in a *relative* way. 2.5% more damage is a correct statement, but it has to be used with care. dealing 205 dam instead of 200 is 2.5% damage increase - but so is 2005 instead of 2000 - if the base damage is 200 but we got 900% more damage already from another source. but in the second example, obviously, the 2.5% more damage are so meager one would not care to get them. there, the 2.5% more dam are actually +0.25% more, looked at in a relative way.
so back to the example: if a human deals 100 damage with a normal strike and a critical strike with 40% chance, which has 100% severity, then his expected damage output per round is 0.6*100+0.4*200=140. if we replace the human with half-orc (assuming that stats stay the same … which they wouldn't of course), then it is 0.6*100+0.4*205=142. considering the base damage of 100, this means 5%*0.4=2% more. but looking at it in a more mathematical way the gain is 142/140-1, which is about 1.4% (if you replace the 40% crit chance by 50%, you will get 1.67%). the relative number is something that completely depends on all your final gear and compares a character with that gear and feature A with a char that has the same gear but feature B.
so if you would already know ahead that you will carry gear that gives 500% crit severity, then the bonus from half-orc becomes super boring.
of course i assume that the creators do use all those values additively. according to the wiki they do. a mathematician would probably suggest to use e^x-1 instead, where x is the sum of all bonuses (or better the natural logarithms of these) - in this case 2% more would really mean 2% more, no matter the gear (though we have to be careful with notation as 2% means 2/100, while e^0.02-1 is close to 0.02, but not the same).
ps: banks also use the e-function when they calculate your interest rates - so if they grant you 5% interest, they actually grant you (ln 0.05) but they use e^x - after 1 year you get 5%, but if you pick up your money after 6 months, they grant you e^(1/2 * ln 5) interest, which is slightly less than 2.5%.
….
probably i get too geeky here (or nerdy? always mix them up :P)
@pingchoncere: thanks mate, yes, i guess that helps quite a bit. i know that 1% is minor, but i always think that every little bit helps. assume a not so skilled group dungeoneering, with a wipeout just before they darn manage to kill the boss. maybe 3% more damage output might have killed the evil add before he kills the DC. so… yeah, it mostly not matters, and this is one out of 100 dungeon runs, but ….
as for 1 STR vs 1 CHA: i wouldn't care too much about 1% damage difference, but depending on the stat selection this is later a choice of 8-10% more damage vs 8-10% more deflect (end stats: 24/24/14 vs 24/14/24). now the bonuses are a bit less negligible. but i guess i agree, i shouldn't bother that much…
i just realize that you covered that in your respond…. sorry *blush*
so i guess i suggest her to play whatever she likes the most and will then help her getting it done
your post helped a lot. of course, playstyle is the thing that matters by FAR the most. i am also not that good myself. i play a CW so far and while i try to do things that synergize nicely (mass damage routine is placing AS, get close to center, cast icy terrain, CoI on one add, chill strike if i manage to handle all those things and finally steal time; half frozen and half stunned enemies on the plate for AoE - but i never pay attention to e.g. eye of the storm, which could increase my damage output a lot….), there are still maaaany things to learn. probably the game is too fast for me
one thing i still try to understand: combat advantage. CHA gives bonuses to that, too. and i assume a good rogue can be in CA a lot, so that bonus should actually apply in most cases, too, right? but is wiki right and CA is 15% more damage and CHA increases those 15%, i.e., 10% more CA damage makes CA 16.5% bonus damage?
Ping pretty much covered what I was going to say. I'll add a bit of my own.
Many of you that have read my posts and small guides(walkthroughs rather), know that I don't do the numbers. I have gone strictly off how I play, vs what works for me in PvP and the results of PvE.
TR's in general, when played correctly, are already a high survival character. Because of our core mechanics, and particular abilities we may run. You are looking for a build that suits your Girlfriend in PvE for DPS. So I would recommend any variation of the Executioner tree because it is relatively easy to play, and pretty straight forward. As compared to say a Perma stealth type build, or a hybrid, which is a bit more tricky to be good at.
Personaly, if I was building a straight forward DPS PvE TR, I would max out Cha and Str. With my own testing of different types of builds that I have been using. Combat Advantage damage overall is much better then having straight Strength, and having them both, is significantly better then not. Like I said I didn't do any number crunching, just went off production value and many hours of PvP, and PvE testing.
I don't feel when building a PvE TR that health is necessary. That of course is personal preference. But if you want to maximize damage, you need to not worry about health. Playstyle is what will give you the survivability. If you get one shot by a boss, having 26k health, or 21k health isn't going to matter.
Building a PvP type TR, and building a good one however is a much different ball game, and a totally different topic.
the problem sometimes is, to determine the experience of that person. anyone can write a guide and pretend to be an expert. i don't even think that some pretend, most just *think* they are experts. but even if someone defeats all T2 dungeons or is doing awesome in PvP, that is not truly enough. that person should have tried various play-styles (if you always play a half-orc TR with STR/DEX focus, then even if you do great, you might have been better off with a drow DEX/CHA - without ever knowing it) and should be immersed enough into the game to know all other classes at least a bit, too, for seeing the big picture.
and if that is all the case, experience is better than number crunching. numbers don't explain everything…
you would max out STR and CHA?? the crit from DEX outvalues the STR bonus if severity is 100% … that sounds strange to me. i could understand that CA damage is overlooked and thus the value of CHA trumps that of STR, but DEX should trump STR anytime - or not?
Like I said I haven't done any number crunching, and I feel Neverwinter doesn't quite play with the same rules as it should when conscerning number crunching anyways.
So..that being said..Why I feel, and how noticeable it was for me I believe is because...
Crit can be achieved by buffs and gear, and is reachable to 50+%, without rolling into it., and..crit is a % chance(roll of the dice if you will)
Where as Strength, is an inate damage increase overall, and when played right, a TR can give themselves Combat A Damage 90%+ of the time, and with placement, and other class's giving CA as well, its more likely in a good group, or even a bad one for that matter, that a TR can achieve CA 100% of the time while fighting, and the increase in damage from going into Charisma, greatly increased my overall DPS..because of this fact.
Could I be proven wrong by way of math? Probably?..but like I said..I went strictly off feel. I was the standard STR/DEX build, then DEX/CHA, now of course I'm totally different with Con/Cha but that's besides the point. I got the most out of my dps when I was STR/CHA for the above reasons.
both STR damage increase and DEX damage increase become less and less valuable the more you get. if you already get 100% bonus damage by strength (damage multiplier of 2), then 1% more is 2.01/2=1.005, thus 0.5% more damage.
so if you ONLY stack STR or ONLY DEX, then the return becomes less and less.
simple example: if you have 100 points to distribute among STR and DEX, then if you put them all in STR you deal 200% damage all the time, if you put them in DEX you crit all the time and with severity 100% this would be 200% damage all the time.
if you distribute them evenly, then you only crit 50% of the time and only deal 150% standard damage, but every time you crit, you deal 300% damage. on average that would be 225% damage.
your experience is quite good there and i actually made a mistake there. if you get 50% crit already via gear, then 1% more crit increases efficiency only by 1.51/1.5=1.0067, i.e. about 0.67%. nothing from gear increases damage AFAIK, so … the first STR point is worth 1% indeed, and the 10th STR point still gives about 0.9% (almost 1%) damage increase… so unless it additively(!) stacks with damage from power or other stats, STR gives you more….
there are some specials from the feats, like critical overrun, that bonus makes crit more viable as does anything that increases crit severity (with 75% crit sev the 0.67% relative increase in crit chance is worth even less; one needs about 150% chance crit sev to get it back to 1%…)
again, no final wisdom, but probably going STR is not a bad idea, but DEX should still be a very close competitor.
thx, haven't thought about that
In all honestly a very large majority of anyones DPS, comes down to playstyle.
Kinda like if someone today put me in a 8.0 second Drag car, the chances of me actually getting 8 seconds are slim to pretty much not happening.
So you can build an 8 second car, the driver needs to do the rest.
As long as your GF is having fun, and by the way you talk I'm assuming you have some knowledge on mmo's and they are all pretty similar. Generally if you are good at one, you'll be good at the next, playstyle is playstyle, so you'll be able to teach her how to be effective in a group and she'll rock out the dmg. As TR's that's what we do best =P
On a side note. I went with Hafling on my TR because I think they look awesome, I didn't even look at the racial bonus's as I made her when I was hammered. Turns out I got lucky because all I do is pvp and she comes with great perks