inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
Remove 75% of the trash in dungeons or make ot worth killing them. let them drop something (rare t/s recipe for epic items, epic ts reagents, drake seals (in lieu of bounties that are traded in 40 at a time for low level seals), super rarely they could drop coffers like the weekly prayer box (90% pres, 10% coal wards)
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited September 2013
+1 i like it
Or like in aion insta dropp boxes, from the box you can earn enchants or teleport scroll's etc AND rare some CWard or Dragon egg.
I very much like the idea of incorporating keys into the Ardent Favor market, so I'm going to 'borrow' that and incorporate it into the main thread. Thanks for the input, guys. I very much appreciate the feedback.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Hmmm, Interesting concept. Perhaps this is a compromise for those who like the DD system as it is, and those who agree with the OP.
This could be a better use for Ardent Coins, and/or the various Lion, Manticore, Pegasus, Unicorn Seals. Say, something like 5 Ardent Coins, and one or two of each of the Seals gets you a key? A Key that can be used anytime, and not just during a DD, and give the same bonus.
It would give people a reason to run other dungeons to get the various Seals too... Especially, if certain Dungeons only gave one type of Seal, and to acquire a full set, you would have to run each of them at least once or twice to collect enough seals for a Key.
As it stands now, Ardent Coins are a waste, unless you play for half a year or so. The Seals are an even bigger waste, as most people seem to leave them lying on the ground in Dungeon Runs.
5 Ardent Coins are really stupid. Im done 20 or more DD runs, and that alone is 100+ of them. You will only be able to do 1 DD run in a week or what?
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slayorianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
As long as I can still blast a few quick runs per DD event with my guild (without some sort of key), I'd be fine with some sort of key system for those who couldn't make it in the time slot.
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xabersedgeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 119Bounty Hunter
5 Ardent Coins are really stupid. Im done 20 or more DD runs, and that alone is 100+ of them. You will only be able to do 1 DD run in a week or what?
I don't think you are grasping the concept. It has nothing to do with locking or unlock DD runs. It has to do with a special key that gets used on the closed chest during a NON DD run. That key would provide the same loot's as a DD run or even a 100% promised purple, which would be worth charging for, or could be attained through gameplay.
And btw, let's not whine about 'trash mobs' If you don't want to deal with them, don't do the dungeon. If there isn't a metric wad of fodder mobs then you can't call it a dungeon. That's almost any and every game that has instanced delves with epic loot. Even with the redonko number of adds and fodder, I still enjoy the run every time. In many dungeons there are even strategies to handle said mobs quickly and do so without exploiting. But I digress, this is a subject for another thread entirely.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
To make the dungeons a little more interesting. They could also add random mini boss spawns that drop T1-T2 gear... in fact... make it only happen during NON-Delves. This will give people a reason to learn the dungeons other than trying to gear up just durign the delves.
Or hell instead of just random... make it a number of monsters killed = one of 12 different rares spawn... each you have to get to in a certtain time period... who always drops a rare item.
Just something... something to make the dungeons more interesting ALL the time. blegh DDO spoiled me. I wish I could combine mechanics from DDO with this combat system. I would be truly happy then.
I would expand this a little - what if, after defeating a certain number of regular enemies, you'd get an announcement that "A competing adventuring party has arrived", and some point between where you are now and the end boss, you could encounter that other party. Give them a chance of dropping items appropriate to the tier of the dungeon, and perhaps, like you mentioned, *don't* have them spawn during normal DD's.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't think you are grasping the concept. It has nothing to do with locking or unlock DD runs. It has to do with a special key that gets used on the closed chest during a NON DD run. That key would provide the same loot's as a DD run or even a 100% promised purple, which would be worth charging for, or could be attained through gameplay.
And btw, let's not whine about 'trash mobs' If you don't want to deal with them, don't do the dungeon. If there isn't a metric wad of fodder mobs then you can't call it a dungeon. That's almost any and every game that has instanced delves with epic loot. Even with the redonko number of adds and fodder, I still enjoy the run every time. In many dungeons there are even strategies to handle said mobs quickly and do so without exploiting. But I digress, this is a subject for another thread entirely.
I thought the point here was to make changes so that more players would participate in dungeon content, without the enticement of too much elite gear which by its very availability ruins its eliteness and affects game balance. A charge for the keys sounds more like a tax on the players, which would really be counter to the objective of drawing people back. The dark fey keys provide an interesting altermative for replacement, not an extra try. Once per day you get a chance at the nice loot chest, beyond that you have to pay ADs for those keys. Some variation of this could be an excellent idea for compromise. But to require a zen store key per EVERY attempt would not only tend to lessen player participation, it also smacks heavily of pay to 'you know what' which to my mind renders it completely unacceptible .
And about the 'trash mobs'. It's less whining than groaning. I'm just sick of grinding on them. So are many others. That's why we don't do the dungeons. One of the points of this thread is to get people back ioto this part of end game play. IMO taking the trash mobs off the table is an excellent place to start.
The problem with removing the trash mobs is you need to populate the dungeon with something. You can't have have a dungeon with just boss fights. What do you recommend to replace the mobs with? An empty dungeon is just as boring as a dungeon with too many of the same mobs. Not to mention in order to receive an Epic reward, you should have had to gone through an Epic fight/adventure/dungeon. Otherwise why not just give you purples just for walking thru the door? I will agree that what the mobs drop now as loot is underwhelming. We can all agree that the dungeons need work. The question is what to fix first, and how will that affect the rest of the dungeon crawl?
if dungeon delve scheduling is outside of your schedule, then change your schedule. the problem with the key idea is that it isn't going to guarantee that you get anything specific. chest drops can be jewelry and no set pieces... and they require a time investment. so you asking to be able to open an epic dungeon chest at any time with the addition of keys, it doesn't remove the challenge of finding a good group either through your guild or otherwise.
and i can tell you right now, if they went with this key idea, an epic dungeon that requires a higher gear score is going to require more than 5k AD and a gold coin.
as it is now, you can run two DDs per event by running a pre-clear. you start clearing a dungeon 30-45 minutes before the DD event and get to the final campsite. once the DD event is live, you all relog to get the chest unlocked. this is not a bug, it is not an exploit, the devs have already stated this is intended to work this way. you can also get the chest unlocked at any time during that hour by starting a dungeon with a group... the event doesn't have to be on-going for your chest to remain unlocked.
and to gek1956... dude. you sound so tired of this game in the many of the threads i see you in. why are you wasting your time here?
you start clearing a dungeon 30-45 minutes before the DD event and get to the final campsite.
If people can't get to the Delve to begin with what makes you think they can get there 45 minutes early and then wait for it to happen?
It isn't a matter of what the chest contains, it is a matter of even being able to participate. The challenge of getting a group together would be somewhat eased by having more people being able to run a dungeon for the chest reward throughout the day rather the just the 4 limited times we have now.
Really??? I think our bosses, professors, spouses, and others who determine our schedule might not be very agreeable to this idea.
be realistic. do you think i was really talking about going into your boss's office and saying 'hey dude... i gotta take all of next week off because i'm doing dungeon delves in neverwinter...' then we're obviously not on the same page here. people have days off... people have evenings off... people have free time... some people have intensive schedules and little to no free time. but the events that are under scrutiny here will take anywhere from forty minutes to an hour or more! how can you be flexible to that end but not flexible to WHEN you can participate?
If people can't get to the Delve to begin with what makes you think they can get there 45 minutes early and then wait for it to happen?
It isn't a matter of what the chest contains, it is a matter of even being able to participate. The challenge of getting a group together would be somewhat eased by having more people being able to run a dungeon for the chest reward throughout the day rather the just the 4 limited times we have now.
if the chest content doesn't matter, then you have no problems at all because anyone can enter an epic dungeon at any time of the day or night. you'll just have to hope that you don't have a ninja looter in your group. but since most people that are running dungeon delves are looking for specific gear pieces, i'm saying that the opportunities are already there. if they never coincide with your schedule... that sucks. dungeon delves have to be a controlled event. if they feel like selling keys, they could still control the event then maybe that will eventually happen. but honestly, i think it will just open another can of worms for people that criticize everything that pwe does.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The problem with removing the trash mobs is you need to populate the dungeon with something. You can't have have a dungeon with just boss fights. What do you recommend to replace the mobs with? An empty dungeon is just as boring as a dungeon with too many of the same mobs. Not to mention in order to receive an Epic reward, you should have had to gone through an Epic fight/adventure/dungeon. Otherwise why not just give you purples just for walking thru the door? I will agree that what the mobs drop now as loot is underwhelming. We can all agree that the dungeons need work. The question is what to fix first, and how will that affect the rest of the dungeon crawl?
Part of the 'trash' in trash mobs is based on the fact that by level 60 ALL green gear drops are unidentified, and the scroll to ID them is a ridiculous 125 ADs. This is actually a loot trap instead of a reward. There is a subtle insult implied here. It's like finding a doctor's bill in your Christmas stocking. People just don't like being jerked around. Grinding through twenty million HPs worth of these damage sponges per dungeon is therefore worse than boring, it is profitless. The boss encounters are the only ones that give rewards worth keeping, and you have to roll for that. The end boss chest gave everyone a chance to get sellable loot. Only now it's not sellable anymore.
There is a simple fact here. People do what they want to do. All this talk about 'balance', and 'epic for epic' ignores the most important thing. It is a game and it should be FUN.
In spite of the bogus time claims, a typical epic run, without cheating, runs from 1 to 3 hours. This alone excludes a large number of players who can't often schedule that kind of commitment. To my mind shorter missions with 'seals' was a very good way to go. I'm sure practiced experienced parties can cut this way down, but then these aren't the people we are worried about here.
Sure, they made the drake and unicorn systems, but then they set them up to be both decidedly inferior to epics and prohibitively time expensive. Each piece takes too many runs to buy. So nobody wants them now. One of a GM's prime rules is not to give it if it will break your game because you can't take it back. Like the Nightmares. Since there was no real 'cheat' involved there, only company error, the product could not be unsold. Epic gear was placed in the game with an unwise and easily exploitable drop/chest system, them hidden behind mountains of adds. Don't just protect OP rewards with OP content. Rework the system.
So..... shorten the missions, give epic coins, and make the epic store loot UNBOUND. Binding the rewards limits replayability drastically. Get your set and you are done. This requires the developers to author a large amount of limited use content, offset only by the fact that it limits farming. The campaign system shows where Cryptic truly wants to go design wise. They wish to do repeatable content. The CO alert system is a perfect example of how to do this and make it WORK. Short, moderately difficult missions with a variety of cash/experience/enhancement rewards. Over time you get enough saved for the uber gear, which you can then either use or sell.
Part of the 'trash' in trash mobs is based on the fact that by level 60 ALL green gear drops are unidentified, and the scroll to ID them is a ridiculous 125 ADs. This is actually a loot trap instead of a reward. There is a subtle insult implied here. It's like finding a doctor's bill in your Christmas stocking. People just don't like being jerked around. Grinding through twenty million HPs worth of these damage sponges per dungeon is therefore worse than boring, it is profitless. The boss encounters are the only ones that give rewards worth keeping, and you have to roll for that. The end boss chest gave everyone a chance to get sellable loot. Only now it's not sellable anymore.
ever since the feywild content went live, i have not purchased a single greater id scroll to identify any unidentified greens or blues. if you don't grind level 60 areas or take the time to pick up the white drops, then i guess you're missing out on some free 125ad id scrolls.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
ever since the feywild content went live, i have not purchased a single greater id scroll to identify any unidentified greens or blues. if you don't grind level 60 areas or take the time to pick up the white drops, then i guess you're missing out on some free 125ad id scrolls.
I get enough to ID the blues, and I pick the greens up, but sell them un IDed. And BTW those hated blue drops did actually make the trash mobs marginally profitable. As for the white drops, I get more of them from leadership and map containers than I do from drops so .. meehh.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
as it is now, you can run two DDs per event by running a pre-clear. you start clearing a dungeon 30-45 minutes before the DD event and get to the final campsite. once the DD event is live, you all relog to get the chest unlocked. this is not a bug, it is not an exploit, the devs have already stated this is intended to work this way.
I seriously doubt that this is "intended" or if the Devs just don't have time to fix this loophole and rather say it is a game mechanic. If you read for example the text explanation on the DD info ingame it clearly says you have to start the dungeon when DD starts but then can finish it even after DD has ended. Not that you can start a dungeon anytime, relog when it is DD and then will also get the chest. And btw this "intended mechanic" leads to the fact that people abuse cheats and shortcuts even more because they want to finish 2 dungeons in one hour. Not leading into the right direction imho.
So..... shorten the missions, give epic coins, and make the epic store loot UNBOUND. Binding the rewards limits replayability drastically. Get your set and you are done. This requires the developers to author a large amount of limited use content, offset only by the fact that it limits farming. The campaign system shows where Cryptic truly wants to go design wise. They wish to do repeatable content. The CO alert system is a perfect example of how to do this and make it WORK. Short, moderately difficult missions with a variety of cash/experience/enhancement rewards. Over time you get enough saved for the uber gear, which you can then either use or sell.
And changes in MMOs come largely through player feedback. This requires identifying areas that need improvement, discussing them, and hopefully brainstorming out some decent ideas the designers can work with. This thread began around one such idea, and those of us interested enough to follow it have put forth some others. We do this because we see a problem. This particular problem is costing the game a lot of new players, far more than the usual 'try it and move on' of FTP. When that happens I think it really needs fixing bad, so I call it BROKEN.
There is nothing wrong with being the devil's advocate. I'm not going to tell you that you are wasting your time. In the end your arguments will only make mine stronger and vice versa. Obviously you really like things the way that they are. I can get behind that. The goal here is to come up with something that everybody can get behind. I would like that better.
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filcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
In spite of the bogus time claims, a typical epic run, without cheating, runs from 1 to 3 hours. This alone excludes a large number of players who can't often schedule that kind of commitment. To my mind shorter missions with 'seals' was a very good way to go. I'm sure practiced experienced parties can cut this way down, but then these aren't the people we are worried about here.
What?
Any T1 epic dungeon with PUG bout 15-25 mins.
T2 dungeon are bit longer. Easiest and faster is LPK, I did that one with 1st timers many times and it takes bout 35 mins if you don't wipe on final boss. FH, SP, TS and CK are close to 45 mins (again if you don't wipe). All times are with group of complete strangers and queued.
With premade/skilled group with gs>10k-11k you can do 3 LPK runs during event. FH, SP, TS, CK usually 2 times. I don't count pre-clears.
All without any type of CHEATING, EXPLOITING or SKIPPING content.
So maybe bogus times claims for your, but pretty much real times for me.
T2 dungeon are bit longer. Easiest and faster is LPK, I did that one with 1st timers many times and it takes bout 35 mins if you don't wipe on final boss. FH, SP, TS and CK are close to 45 mins (again if you don't wipe). All times are with group of complete strangers and queued.
With premade/skilled group with gs>10k-11k you can do 3 LPK runs during event. FH, SP, TS, CK usually 2 times. I don't count pre-clears.
All without any type of CHEATING, EXPLOITING or SKIPPING content.
So maybe bogus times claims for your, but pretty much real times for me.
Geez you are slow. I can get at least 12 PK runs in during Dungeon Delves.
Spellplague? 15 runs. One hour. No exploits either.
I can totally do Castle Never in 5 minutes flat. Can one-shot Draco too.
Malabog? 2.47 seconds. PWNED.
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xabersedgeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 119Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
If you have to log out, and relog. It's breaking the intended system. pre-clears are an exploit plain and simple. NOT A MECHANIC. molodywhr obviously has no life outside of this game, telling people to rearrange their lives just for a delve and running pre-clear exploits. As far as I am concerned you are a prime example of what is wrong with the currently broken system. Make no mistake that at this point, your opinion officially means less than a HAMSTER in the wind. gratz on that.
I hoping the rest of us can play the game as intended and enjoy it AS INTENDED. Back to the point, we are talking about a system that can make a lot of players smile and make money for PWE if done right, I don't see a down side and I think without all the mindless quibbling perhaps this is a thread that could get read and taken seriously by the devs.
If you have to log out, and relog. It's breaking the intended system. pre-clears are an exploit plain and simple. NOT A MECHANIC. molodywhr obviously has no life outside of this game, telling people to rearrange their lives just for a delve and running pre-clear exploits. As far as I am concerned you are a prime example of what is wrong with the currently broken system. Make no mistake that at this point, your opinion officially means less than a HAMSTER in the wind. gratz on that.
I hoping the rest of us can play the game as intended and enjoy it AS INTENDED. Back to the point, we are talking about a system that can make a lot of players smile and make money for PWE if done right, I don't see a down side and I think without all the mindless quibbling perhaps this is a thread that could get read and taken seriously by the devs.
I think it's important to recognize his point, that yes, there ARE current methods around a lot of the problems with dungeons. Like wall glitches and glitching bosses, relogging and such.
But it's my belief that one day those glitches will be fixed. What will become of the content then? I'm hoping to present ideas that can work around that assumption, that not all current exploits and methods that make dungeons palatable will remain around forever.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Oh, and I added a new idea post up. If you want to check it out, try here.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
that is way to easy to take out of context, he may be saying 'wait until DD is up, then run.' There is nothing there specifically saying, log out then come back. If there was an intended system, there would be a pre-clear system set up. Until such a system arrives, it's an exploit and you are only trying to justify a lack integrity toward gameplay.
Im not saying every trick pulled in a dungeon is exploit or bugged. there is alot of it that is strategy. I have seen really cool uses of the environment to get rid of fodder mobs, for instance. I have seen nifty tricks to handle adds so the boss can be focused on. These aren't bugs, they are smart ways of using what you have. If you have to log out and come back. . .that is not a tactic. If there was a big button that said 'leave instance' and 'return to instance' that would a built in mechanic. . .all be it smart and stupid at the same time.
p.s. I really do hate when a good thread gets derailed =_=
that is way to easy to take out of context, he may be saying 'wait until DD is up, then run.' There is nothing there specifically saying, log out then come back. If there was an intended system, there would be a pre-clear system set up. Until such a system arrives, it's an exploit and you are only trying to justify a lack integrity toward gameplay.
You should read that thread. Lots of discussion of the login/out in there before the dev posts that pre-clear is intended. Panderus the dev posts again later in the thread, stating that the text is what is bugged.
In conclusion, pre-clear is not only fine, but intended, per a dev.
I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
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xabersedgeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 119Bounty Hunter
edited September 2013
The thing is that you never see a dev, you see a producer and moderators. Those are not the code monkeys. Since PWE is running the servers they have say on what gets banned and not. The producer simply states in Uncertain Terms that it is a 'wierd issue.' Something to be fixed later but not a priority. He never once qualifies it as design, nor does he **** it as exploit. This is diplomatic side-stepping at best. Since there is no explicit terms toward it being exploit. . .i guess you can't really call it an exploit. In which case, I will simply say it goes against my personal policy. It feels like something that hurts the 'spirit' of the game. BUT, I will not refer to it as an exploit from here out. Thank you for pointing me to that thread, I will even apologize to melodywhr. . .begrudgingly. This maneuver just isn't my flavor though, call me a purist, but I nor anyone in my guild will pre-clear, unless something explicit is done to justify it in honest.
The thing is that you never see a dev... He never once qualifies it as design, nor does he **** it as exploit. This is diplomatic side-stepping at best. Since there is no explicit terms
You really are splitting hairs when you say a producer is not a dev.
"This is totally intended and part of why we implement the events" does not sound like diplomatic side stepping and sounds like Iits explicity acknowledged as fine.
Whether you like it or want to do it, its not an exploit per a Cryptic employee.
Comments
Or like in aion insta dropp boxes, from the box you can earn enchants or teleport scroll's etc AND rare some CWard or Dragon egg.
Sorry for bad eng.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
5 Ardent Coins are really stupid. Im done 20 or more DD runs, and that alone is 100+ of them. You will only be able to do 1 DD run in a week or what?
I don't think you are grasping the concept. It has nothing to do with locking or unlock DD runs. It has to do with a special key that gets used on the closed chest during a NON DD run. That key would provide the same loot's as a DD run or even a 100% promised purple, which would be worth charging for, or could be attained through gameplay.
And btw, let's not whine about 'trash mobs' If you don't want to deal with them, don't do the dungeon. If there isn't a metric wad of fodder mobs then you can't call it a dungeon. That's almost any and every game that has instanced delves with epic loot. Even with the redonko number of adds and fodder, I still enjoy the run every time. In many dungeons there are even strategies to handle said mobs quickly and do so without exploiting. But I digress, this is a subject for another thread entirely.
I would expand this a little - what if, after defeating a certain number of regular enemies, you'd get an announcement that "A competing adventuring party has arrived", and some point between where you are now and the end boss, you could encounter that other party. Give them a chance of dropping items appropriate to the tier of the dungeon, and perhaps, like you mentioned, *don't* have them spawn during normal DD's.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I thought the point here was to make changes so that more players would participate in dungeon content, without the enticement of too much elite gear which by its very availability ruins its eliteness and affects game balance. A charge for the keys sounds more like a tax on the players, which would really be counter to the objective of drawing people back. The dark fey keys provide an interesting altermative for replacement, not an extra try. Once per day you get a chance at the nice loot chest, beyond that you have to pay ADs for those keys. Some variation of this could be an excellent idea for compromise. But to require a zen store key per EVERY attempt would not only tend to lessen player participation, it also smacks heavily of pay to 'you know what' which to my mind renders it completely unacceptible .
And about the 'trash mobs'. It's less whining than groaning. I'm just sick of grinding on them. So are many others. That's why we don't do the dungeons. One of the points of this thread is to get people back ioto this part of end game play. IMO taking the trash mobs off the table is an excellent place to start.
and i can tell you right now, if they went with this key idea, an epic dungeon that requires a higher gear score is going to require more than 5k AD and a gold coin.
as it is now, you can run two DDs per event by running a pre-clear. you start clearing a dungeon 30-45 minutes before the DD event and get to the final campsite. once the DD event is live, you all relog to get the chest unlocked. this is not a bug, it is not an exploit, the devs have already stated this is intended to work this way. you can also get the chest unlocked at any time during that hour by starting a dungeon with a group... the event doesn't have to be on-going for your chest to remain unlocked.
and to gek1956... dude. you sound so tired of this game in the many of the threads i see you in. why are you wasting your time here?
If people can't get to the Delve to begin with what makes you think they can get there 45 minutes early and then wait for it to happen?
It isn't a matter of what the chest contains, it is a matter of even being able to participate. The challenge of getting a group together would be somewhat eased by having more people being able to run a dungeon for the chest reward throughout the day rather the just the 4 limited times we have now.
be realistic. do you think i was really talking about going into your boss's office and saying 'hey dude... i gotta take all of next week off because i'm doing dungeon delves in neverwinter...' then we're obviously not on the same page here. people have days off... people have evenings off... people have free time... some people have intensive schedules and little to no free time. but the events that are under scrutiny here will take anywhere from forty minutes to an hour or more! how can you be flexible to that end but not flexible to WHEN you can participate?
if the chest content doesn't matter, then you have no problems at all because anyone can enter an epic dungeon at any time of the day or night. you'll just have to hope that you don't have a ninja looter in your group. but since most people that are running dungeon delves are looking for specific gear pieces, i'm saying that the opportunities are already there. if they never coincide with your schedule... that sucks. dungeon delves have to be a controlled event. if they feel like selling keys, they could still control the event then maybe that will eventually happen. but honestly, i think it will just open another can of worms for people that criticize everything that pwe does.
Part of the 'trash' in trash mobs is based on the fact that by level 60 ALL green gear drops are unidentified, and the scroll to ID them is a ridiculous 125 ADs. This is actually a loot trap instead of a reward. There is a subtle insult implied here. It's like finding a doctor's bill in your Christmas stocking. People just don't like being jerked around. Grinding through twenty million HPs worth of these damage sponges per dungeon is therefore worse than boring, it is profitless. The boss encounters are the only ones that give rewards worth keeping, and you have to roll for that. The end boss chest gave everyone a chance to get sellable loot. Only now it's not sellable anymore.
There is a simple fact here. People do what they want to do. All this talk about 'balance', and 'epic for epic' ignores the most important thing. It is a game and it should be FUN.
In spite of the bogus time claims, a typical epic run, without cheating, runs from 1 to 3 hours. This alone excludes a large number of players who can't often schedule that kind of commitment. To my mind shorter missions with 'seals' was a very good way to go. I'm sure practiced experienced parties can cut this way down, but then these aren't the people we are worried about here.
Sure, they made the drake and unicorn systems, but then they set them up to be both decidedly inferior to epics and prohibitively time expensive. Each piece takes too many runs to buy. So nobody wants them now. One of a GM's prime rules is not to give it if it will break your game because you can't take it back. Like the Nightmares. Since there was no real 'cheat' involved there, only company error, the product could not be unsold. Epic gear was placed in the game with an unwise and easily exploitable drop/chest system, them hidden behind mountains of adds. Don't just protect OP rewards with OP content. Rework the system.
So..... shorten the missions, give epic coins, and make the epic store loot UNBOUND. Binding the rewards limits replayability drastically. Get your set and you are done. This requires the developers to author a large amount of limited use content, offset only by the fact that it limits farming. The campaign system shows where Cryptic truly wants to go design wise. They wish to do repeatable content. The CO alert system is a perfect example of how to do this and make it WORK. Short, moderately difficult missions with a variety of cash/experience/enhancement rewards. Over time you get enough saved for the uber gear, which you can then either use or sell.
ever since the feywild content went live, i have not purchased a single greater id scroll to identify any unidentified greens or blues. if you don't grind level 60 areas or take the time to pick up the white drops, then i guess you're missing out on some free 125ad id scrolls.
I get enough to ID the blues, and I pick the greens up, but sell them un IDed. And BTW those hated blue drops did actually make the trash mobs marginally profitable. As for the white drops, I get more of them from leadership and map containers than I do from drops so .. meehh.
Just the dungeons. They are BROKEN. I'm here writing to see if we can get this changed. Why are you arguing with us?
i'm stating my opinion and offering positive insight rather than just throwing up my hands and saying 'it's BROKEN to hell with it all...'
if you stick with this game, you will see a number of changes happen through the course of it all. such is the life of an mmo.
I seriously doubt that this is "intended" or if the Devs just don't have time to fix this loophole and rather say it is a game mechanic. If you read for example the text explanation on the DD info ingame it clearly says you have to start the dungeon when DD starts but then can finish it even after DD has ended. Not that you can start a dungeon anytime, relog when it is DD and then will also get the chest. And btw this "intended mechanic" leads to the fact that people abuse cheats and shortcuts even more because they want to finish 2 dungeons in one hour. Not leading into the right direction imho.
I'll simply refer to my last paragraph in post #44 :
And changes in MMOs come largely through player feedback. This requires identifying areas that need improvement, discussing them, and hopefully brainstorming out some decent ideas the designers can work with. This thread began around one such idea, and those of us interested enough to follow it have put forth some others. We do this because we see a problem. This particular problem is costing the game a lot of new players, far more than the usual 'try it and move on' of FTP. When that happens I think it really needs fixing bad, so I call it BROKEN.
There is nothing wrong with being the devil's advocate. I'm not going to tell you that you are wasting your time. In the end your arguments will only make mine stronger and vice versa. Obviously you really like things the way that they are. I can get behind that. The goal here is to come up with something that everybody can get behind. I would like that better.
What?
Any T1 epic dungeon with PUG bout 15-25 mins.
T2 dungeon are bit longer. Easiest and faster is LPK, I did that one with 1st timers many times and it takes bout 35 mins if you don't wipe on final boss. FH, SP, TS and CK are close to 45 mins (again if you don't wipe). All times are with group of complete strangers and queued.
With premade/skilled group with gs>10k-11k you can do 3 LPK runs during event. FH, SP, TS, CK usually 2 times. I don't count pre-clears.
All without any type of CHEATING, EXPLOITING or SKIPPING content.
So maybe bogus times claims for your, but pretty much real times for me.
Geez you are slow. I can get at least 12 PK runs in during Dungeon Delves.
Spellplague? 15 runs. One hour. No exploits either.
I can totally do Castle Never in 5 minutes flat. Can one-shot Draco too.
Malabog? 2.47 seconds. PWNED.
I hoping the rest of us can play the game as intended and enjoy it AS INTENDED. Back to the point, we are talking about a system that can make a lot of players smile and make money for PWE if done right, I don't see a down side and I think without all the mindless quibbling perhaps this is a thread that could get read and taken seriously by the devs.
I think it's important to recognize his point, that yes, there ARE current methods around a lot of the problems with dungeons. Like wall glitches and glitching bosses, relogging and such.
But it's my belief that one day those glitches will be fixed. What will become of the content then? I'm hoping to present ideas that can work around that assumption, that not all current exploits and methods that make dungeons palatable will remain around forever.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?316671-Dungeon-Delves-Preclearing-exploit-or-not&p=4088122&viewfull=1#post4088122
that is way to easy to take out of context, he may be saying 'wait until DD is up, then run.' There is nothing there specifically saying, log out then come back. If there was an intended system, there would be a pre-clear system set up. Until such a system arrives, it's an exploit and you are only trying to justify a lack integrity toward gameplay.
Im not saying every trick pulled in a dungeon is exploit or bugged. there is alot of it that is strategy. I have seen really cool uses of the environment to get rid of fodder mobs, for instance. I have seen nifty tricks to handle adds so the boss can be focused on. These aren't bugs, they are smart ways of using what you have. If you have to log out and come back. . .that is not a tactic. If there was a big button that said 'leave instance' and 'return to instance' that would a built in mechanic. . .all be it smart and stupid at the same time.
p.s. I really do hate when a good thread gets derailed =_=
In conclusion, pre-clear is not only fine, but intended, per a dev.
"This is totally intended and part of why we implement the events" does not sound like diplomatic side stepping and sounds like Iits explicity acknowledged as fine.
Whether you like it or want to do it, its not an exploit per a Cryptic employee.