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GWF vs TR: PvP strategy
pando83
Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
I'd like to discuss the strategy behind this vs matchup. I'd like to hear some feedback and experiences.
The only class i really find hard to counter in PvP, as a GWF, is the TR. What i tried so far:
my setup is steel grace and master at arms for passives, and takedown/IBS/restoring strike. Takedown is the skill every GWF usually starts with. It gives you 3 seconds of prone cc to unleash IBS and restoring strike/ flourish with 100% chance to hit. Some GWFs may have stunning flourish and start with it, then takedown and IBS.
Every encounter of a GWF is easy to dodge. TRs have dodge+ immunity, so they can dodge you 3 times, like a CW, while being immune to cc. They are also usually fast and can run away, unlike the CW that is usually very slow once they run out of teleports. So their evanding capability is the best among all classes.
They can stealth and attack from stealth. Most of the time in a brawl you just can't avoid their massive damage from behind. In 1v1, fighting a perma stealth rogue is pretty hard for me. Can't see them. Someone wrote "you can figure out when he's going to attack". Really? How? Also: even if you sprint away in the right moment, their power does not miss... If you avoid them, they still can attack from range while stealthed. If you raun around searching them, it takes ages. And in the meanwhile you lose lots of health and become vulnerable. I tried, as someone suggested, to use come and get it. The TRs just went ITC while being sucked in, being invulnerable for 5 seconds. Then they just rolled away and went back to stealth, starting the invisible ranged attack. Slam was a good counter, but it's a daily. Can't use it all the time.
So, how do you deal with stealth+ ITC?
Some more geared rogue can monster damage from stealth, range attack, go invulnerable, dodge immune 3 times, go invulnerable again with soulforged, and go back to stealth.
Most of the time i have the impression they have huge melee DPS, good ranged damage, stealth, dodge immunity and invlunerability (while our Unstoppable is just damage reduction + immunity, not invulnerability), making them more tanky than me, with stealth, monster damage and more mobility.
How do you counter them? Where's the weak spot? Can't see it so far. Anyone has suggestions?
The only class i really find hard to counter in PvP, as a GWF, is the TR. What i tried so far:
my setup is steel grace and master at arms for passives, and takedown/IBS/restoring strike. Takedown is the skill every GWF usually starts with. It gives you 3 seconds of prone cc to unleash IBS and restoring strike/ flourish with 100% chance to hit. Some GWFs may have stunning flourish and start with it, then takedown and IBS.
Every encounter of a GWF is easy to dodge. TRs have dodge+ immunity, so they can dodge you 3 times, like a CW, while being immune to cc. They are also usually fast and can run away, unlike the CW that is usually very slow once they run out of teleports. So their evanding capability is the best among all classes.
They can stealth and attack from stealth. Most of the time in a brawl you just can't avoid their massive damage from behind. In 1v1, fighting a perma stealth rogue is pretty hard for me. Can't see them. Someone wrote "you can figure out when he's going to attack". Really? How? Also: even if you sprint away in the right moment, their power does not miss... If you avoid them, they still can attack from range while stealthed. If you raun around searching them, it takes ages. And in the meanwhile you lose lots of health and become vulnerable. I tried, as someone suggested, to use come and get it. The TRs just went ITC while being sucked in, being invulnerable for 5 seconds. Then they just rolled away and went back to stealth, starting the invisible ranged attack. Slam was a good counter, but it's a daily. Can't use it all the time.
So, how do you deal with stealth+ ITC?
Some more geared rogue can monster damage from stealth, range attack, go invulnerable, dodge immune 3 times, go invulnerable again with soulforged, and go back to stealth.
Most of the time i have the impression they have huge melee DPS, good ranged damage, stealth, dodge immunity and invlunerability (while our Unstoppable is just damage reduction + immunity, not invulnerability), making them more tanky than me, with stealth, monster damage and more mobility.
How do you counter them? Where's the weak spot? Can't see it so far. Anyone has suggestions?
Post edited by pando83 on
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and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Yet GWF are not OP no not at all another person that wants it all
Really?
I have issues with GF's, though they are becoming more and more rare in the last two weeks. I avoid DC's and GF's for the same reason (take too long to kill), and pick on the FotM tards that play CW and TR at every opportunity.
One good cycle of takedown/ibs/flourish and they are usually destroyed or almost. Then the rogue spends the rest of the time trying to disengage.
Unless he has good armor. Then I call for teammate support and let the CW or our TR rip him up the rest of the way while he's occupied with me.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
@irk2013: are you a troll or something? Learn 2 read. I never wrote, not even 1 time "TRs are OP". The thread is about discussing a good strategy to counter the mix i mentioned above. Also: GWF are OP only on sentinel 37k+ hp+ high regen/ deflection+ tenes. Else they are just either a very hard tank or a medium DPS that can eat some damage. Most problems people have with GWFs is cause they do not know how to fight them. And it's easy to figure out.
He sprints at you. Tries to takedown. The animation is low. Dodge roll/ teleport when you see the animation starting. it goes on 3 secs cooldown. If he goes unstoppable, just avoid him for 5-8 seconds, he can't attack from range, so it's easy. When unstoppable runs out, attack again. You've all the weapons you need to face him. As a GF, just avoid him to get behind you, block and chain prone. As a CW, just cc, teleport when he starts the animation like said above. Repeat 3 times, then cc again, push exc... As a DC, teleport dodge the slow animations, heal and tank. As aTR you've all the options i'm discussing here. You can monster damage from stealth, go ITC, dodge roll, dodge roll, avoid his unstoppable, attack from range, go stealth again, repeat.
Only way to give a GWF the upper hand is to try and tank him face to face, or let him get you with takedown. Else, as i said, you've all the weapons you need to fight him. Unless he's one of those OP sentinels with tenes. If he's a tanky sentinel, just let a stealthed rogue or a GF or a CW handle him or swarm him. All he can do is camp a point.
@lobo0084: if the TR is dumb and not ubergeared yes, it's easy. If he tries to tank, he's dead. But i'm talking about the even slightly good ones...
Takedown is dodged easily. They usually go ITC from stealth, LB/LA/SE, then dodge roll avoiding your unstoppable, then go stealth, disengage, range attack from stealth, smoke screen exc... many options. The problem is: how to catch them with our encounters.
Example: i'm on a point. From somwhere a TR starts throwing knives at me. My hp go down. Need to find him. Where is he? Use Come and Get it. He goes ITC, invulnerable for 3 seconds. Then dodge roll and go stealth again, starting throwing daggers again. May be use roar? as i said, where do you hit? Any direction could be good. Run around? He can avoid you, and even if you find him, he can dodge roll away and you've to find him again. In the meanwhile, he'll throw knives at you from range. Then he'll come at you from stealth to finish you off with lashing blade/ high DPS encounters.
Example: a TR comes at you from stealth. Monster damage from lashing exc..., and goes ITC. He's invulnerable now and can avoid being proned. He dodge roll and disengage. What do you do? Go unstoppable? You'll waste it trying to catch him. He still has 2 more dodge rolls. I don't know how it works, but i've also seen TRs dodge rolling and go stealth after ITC. So after taking high DPS, you can't counter cause they go immune and then they can roll away, go back to stealth and throw knives from stealth. I've also seen TRs being able to use ITC quite frequently.
How do you catch them with your takedown. Can't find a opening. They can DPS, stealth, range attack, go invulnerable and dodge roll with immunity. Need to figure out how to go through all these defensive capabilities.
As i said, a CW is pretty easy to figure out: eat their cc, chase them, make them waste the teleports. It's all down to who's better: him at dodging you, or you at making him waste his teleports during his cooldowns, catch him and punish him.
A GF just needs to be circled and takedown from behind. Not easy, need to avoid his prone chain, but can be done. With Student of the sword, once you take them, you can rip off their defense.
A GWF just need to be avoided during unstoppable, and dodge/ parry his slow encounters.
Each class has a counter. Can't find the one of the TR. May be GWF vs TR is just a matchup that is favorable for TRs?
They Always have the upper hand when you meet them 1v1. And even in Group fight, it's easy for them to one shot squishy classes from stealth, go ITC, dodge roll away, throw knives from distance, dodge roll and go stealth if someone charges them.
Not sure i understand this response, but Roar is your best bet of snagging them whilst they are stealth once you figure out where they are, there is no encounter that will unstealth them if that is what you are trying to find out. You have to be patient when they are stealth and guess their movements, watch which direction their clone is facing if they use one, and where the knives are coming from, use it when you are fairly confident you are heading in the right direction. come get me's radius is too small to be used effectively.
But from reading your post, it seems like you are not looking for answers/solutions, you have given up already. Rogues will always dominate vs any target that is squishie/dps built, if they play with cautious.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
If i'd given up, i would not post to discuss strategies, don't you think? I'm collecting feedback from other GWFs.
How do you see where the knives come from? I can't see them.
What i'm discussing here is this: there are clear strategies/ counters for all classes. Each class can counter the Others. That's my experience. What i can't find, is a clear strategy vs Trs when you meet them 1v1.
I was asking if there's something more certain then "just try and figure out where they are".
For example, CW weakness is that they have 3 teleport limit, then they are at your mercy. You've to make them waste the teleports with fake Attacks and keeping them under pressure without wasting your encounters.
So, against a TR, what should a GWF do?
I've posted many scenarios in the previous posts. How would you counter them in such situations that usually occur in PvP?
I'm not ubergeared, but i'm not really squishy. 28k hp, 34 AC, 2.2k defense with 40% DM, and 5% life steal. Have some regen due to gear, but when i can i'll change it. I'm not a full regen/HP/tenes sentinel. I don't want to be full tank. but sure thing i'm not squishy. Most of the time i can tank from 2 to 3 people, and do damage.
Passives are steel grace and master at arms for crit. Rotation is takedown/IBS/restoring strike.
Apart from the monster damage they are suppsoed to deal from stealth/ attacking from behind, which i understand, i need to figure out how to pass through their multiple defensive options.
Let's see example number one. Usual attack with encounters from stealth+ ITC. My HP usually go down to half or less. Can't attack them cause they're ITC. They roll away, so if i go unstoppable it will probably run out while i chase them (they have 3 rolls). Chase them and wait? May be. But i've seen many of them going stealth after rolling away. Now the TR is throwing knives at me. Let's say i go unstoppable to avoid being killed, and find him. He can still dodge roll. By the time i catch up, he can go ITC again. Or he can use smoke screen. What would you do in this situation. I mean, the TR DPS you from stealth going ITC. What do you do after that to get him with takedown.
Let's see example number two: you're on a control point. Red numbers start to fly over your heads. A TR is somewhere throwing knives at you. How do you find him, drag him out of stealth, pass through an eventual ITC, the 3 dodge rolls, and prevent him from disengaging-go stealth-attack again from range or DPS to Death after softening you up with ranged Attacks.
Right now the option is "figure out where he is". I'll try to see where the knives are coming from. He will dodge roll away when i reach him and go ITC may be, then disengage dodge rolling away.
Still looks more like they have the upper hand against us, and we've to try and get them somehow. Doesn't look like a natural counter, but may be better than being one-shotted...
No, he makes a fair point. The TR's in my guild talk about how much they own GWF's, and while I'm not going to say they are lying, I know that I have only lost a 1v1 with a TR, even a 2v1 (them having two) on a handful of occasions ... and never to the same character twice. Some players, and certain playstyles, support winning against other playstyles better. As a high-HP deflect sentinel, a TR just doesn't have a lot of oomph on me.
I might NOT be able to kill them, but that doesn't mean they kill me. I play with a team, on teamspeak no less, and communicate and coordinate. If I can't kill you, someone will. There's more to the game than the kill, and if I'm able to hold a point and prevent it's loss, I win. Or stop their gain. I win. And at the very least, I can often keep them engaged on me, usually several at a time, while my team wins.
Again, there is more than one way to skin a cat. And there are GOOD, even GREAT TR's who play their class exceptionally well. With good gear, they are just about as awesome as a great TR should be. But like it or not, they still die.
That said, I do not count the handful of individuals on my server (Beholder) who are very obviously hacking. They are becoming well known for their exploits (completely immune to damage for over 30 seconds from three attackers, while only having a lesser soulforge (I was on the same team, so did a gear check) and 700 defense and 700 deflect).
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
If you are so unfortunate to encounter a high hp, regen TR with 6-7 greater tene, you can basically kiss the fight goodbye. The TR impact shot you from distance (landing tene), dodge your attk, then stealth and dps you, then ITC when out of stealth, then dodge once ITC is over and run a bit and then stealth again. You will need luck on your end to catch them the land your roar / takedown / IBS / daily. Even when you are lucky the TR with high hp / regen will be able to eat your rotation and then stealth again and repeat his routine.
Overall i would say TR is OP in all aspect of PVP, since they have too many tools for immunity and stealth AND possess high dps. Even at holding a pt, a stealth TR can hold down a pt vs 2 players for a long long time. But i imagine this class is also the class whichmost zens are bought.
There are a few fundamental issues I have with TR's, but they aren't by nature the fault of the player, and may be more my conditioning with other games. But in my mind, any stealth class must follow two distinct rules: ANY damage taken or given out of stealth removes stealth (giving only massive benefits on the first attack); and a stealthed character may not interact with anything, including capturing a point or drinking a potion, while remaining stealthed.
These are common balance points in other games for the simple fact that the ability to choose the time of engagement, and disengage, are two of the strongest abilities a player can have. High initiative roles are one of the most desired traits in paper-and-pen games.
Why TR's don't have that restriction here, I have no idea. Just like the lack of a real Taunt ability.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
1. Focus on controlling them.
2. DON'T attack if you see them go black, that's impossible to catch, and it won't matter what skill you try, even a daily won't hold them.
3. If they're perma *****, and you're not good at anticipating their movements or don't have a skill like Slam (which will show you where they are REAL quick while slowing them), run out of the way temporarily, about 6-8 seconds max, and their stealth should be down.
4. I do not recommend restoring. Use Flourish, Takedown, then Restoring (if you want), or better IBS. You want to give them the most damage possible so they have the least chance of giving you a crit. Flourish first will stun them, and then Take will put them on the ground, of course opening the possibility for you to IBS.
5. Use Sure Strike in PvP for them. Wicked Strike is wide, but it's slow and easy to move out of the way. Sure Strike will lock on them.
6. Most TRs are trying to get behind you, so keep turning around as you swing with Sure Strike, moving as well. You should eventually get a hold of them.
7. Of course, that requires you taking a good bit of damage beforehand. So you should have a decent amount of D stacked, maybe some Regen. I'm currently trying to stack my D with rank 10 Azures, which I recommend. You want to be able to take a decent amount of their hits so you can out survive them.
8. That being said, don't forget, with generally any build but Sentinel, if more than one player is attacking you, you can basically forget taking out the TR, especially if it's a good CW.
9. If you're on Mindflayer, the following TRs are the ones you should look out for to learn how the good ones play: Saoish, Ryuk, Sakari, and Proxi. Others I've seen can hit like a beast, but are gear complacent (meaning they know their gear is much better, so they rely on stuff like serious damage, but can't actually PLAY, meaning understanding angles, when to attack, etc.).
I've heard this theory before, and though it works, the one thing is you're risking not using a vital encounter power that does more damage. If you're not pulling high crit numbers or general numbers, it's not a good idea.
- I survive off of deflect, personally. Defense is at 2600, which was the base I shot for. I don't get as much unstoppable as others, but deflect beats out AP and can't be mitigated.
- Thunderstorm is a lovely armor enchant. Enough said there.
- Don't forget to use the control key (default setting), which as you hold it can lock onto targets. Sometimes it'll follow them in stealth, and while you can't always see the rogue, you can still hit them with an at-will or even takedown.
- If you can't kill the rogue, move onto something you can. Best time to kill a rogue is when they are trying to kill someone else, like your DC or CW.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Ah, deflect, yes, should have mentioned that.
That's why the discussion is about a 1v1 situation. For example your team is battling on the center point, you notice someone is taking your base point. You go back and you find out it's a TR. You're alone vs him. Or you're going to a pot, or taking a alternative route, and you meet him/ her. Any situation where you're not with your team (it happens).
If you catch them...
Guess if a lvl 60 GWF doesn't know that, he shouldn't be PvPing
Stealth down for them means i can see them 1 fraction of a second, then they go back to stealth (guess perma stealth works this way). If i'm far from them, by the time i'm where i saw them, they'll be somewhere else... throwing knives from stealth.
Flourish stuns only if you have stunning flourish. Else, it's some kind of "confusion", but the enemy can still move. Also, as a sentinel you've extra healing from RS due to sentinel Aegis. Plus, the difference in damage is not that big (i have let's say 3.8k with flourish, 3.4k restoring, if you consider the healing capability. RS still hits like a truck. Takedown usually is enough to unload IBS and RS. 3 seconds prone. Also, RS is very good against almost all the other classes... Expecially if you're not a full sentinel-regen-deflection build.
Doesn't def get a diminishing return at around 2.2-2.3k? Slotting def after that point is not that much convenient. I am not a full sentinel with regen. I have 1st instigator for healing, 1st destroyer, full sentinel. But didn't gear for regen/hp/deflection. More like 28k hp, life steal and high crit/good power/good ArP. Like a hybrid.
Still, i can take lots of damage, even if not as much as a regen sentinel. My issue is that i should have a chance to get them at some point, like with CWs when i make them run out of teleports, after eating all their cc encounters and their damage. At best you can avoid being killed (unless they're uber geared), but still can't kill them. You're basically a pounching bag that won't break down.
I know i'm not a full tank. Sometimes i can tank 2-3 people if they've comparable gear. If i see i'm getting swarmed/ overwhelmed, i disengage with unstoppable + sprint and try to recover.
That's the issue. So far what i get is:
- Figure out somehow where he is and use Roar
- Be a regen sentinel and eat their damage
May be using briatwhine armor enchant you can detect them when they take damage from briartwhine? This way you've to give up on soulforged, but at least can see them.
With deflect focus on sentinel, you can avoid getting hit and their Armor Penetration and Critical don't affect you.
With a defense focus sentinel, your absorbing the strike (face tank) and taking in their mitigation against yours in order to determine the damage, and usually turn that damage into more unstoppable.
A regen focus sentinel is hoping to either avoid or absorb the strike and have enough time to fight to build hp back up. They generally focus on much higher HP totals and multiple opponents.
With a damage focused sentinel, your taking a basic level of deflect and defense (2.6 is the end of the positive slope for defense, btw) and attempting to focus more on absorbing damage from smaller hits and hitting back harder. TR's aren't necessarily the best target for this, as to simply point out, their high crit/high ArP focus is going to go straight through your defense and top off on all that 28k hp. A solid hit from a defenseless target can reach 40k for some TR's.
This means you have made a build that can be one-shot by a high-crit/high ArP TR, which is sadly the primary choice for a lot of TR's.
With your build, I would personally be assisting other players in destroying high-value targets. Letting the CW choke the GF and finishing them off quickly. Let the GF knockdown that GWF to put the deathknell on. You've got enough health to shrug off an AOE from the enemy CW or to rebuild off a long GF/GWF fight with that lifesteal, but not enough to tank a burst damage like a high-crit Tene ice knife or the aforementioned TR.
Just my observations on your build. If I was you, I'd avoid going to the back cap and let someone who can take an alpha burst do so. It's not to say your build is bad, just that it's possible your not using it to it's maximum advantage.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Thanks for the tips. So it's not like i'm missing something but just the build that is a bad matchup for a TR.
I rarely got 1shotted, but i guess that it's just cause most TRs are not ubergeared yet.
I've seen and read about the 40k crit of TRs, and even more. Somewhere, i've read 60k or something.
It's a bit weird though...unless you slot deflection any class, even a 37k GF or GWF is going to be 1shotted...
Plus deflection is just a chance of deflecting 50% of the damage, if i remember well...which means that, against such ubergeared TRs, anyone can be one shotted? Cause if. by chance, you do not deflect, you're dead with a 40k crit, even if you have 37k HP...
Thanks for all the feedback btw. I'll just stick with my Group if i see a very good geared TR on the opposite team.
Thanks for the feedback on the def return too. May be i'll try and bring it to 2.6k.
Right now my choice is to use a ful heroic duelist set. Reason: with 5% healing feat and the full set bonus i can consistently heal for 10% of my hp (2.8k) if i activate unstoppable at 60% determination (most of the time), or even 13% (3.6k) if i've full determination bar. If the set would work as the tooltip says, i would heal for easily 3.2-4k each time i go unstoppable. Which happens quite often.
I know that the common setup, considered the best, is 2/2 AoW-Vigilant (may be 2/2 titan-vigilant for full tanks). But doing some math, considering the bonus, i decided to try and test the PvP set efficiency on the field. May be i'll try the 2/2 setups once i have some spare AD (right now i've 400k...not much. And collecting them slowly, since i don't have a clan and being invited in T2 dungeons to farm stuff is very difficult).
In PvP right now i tend to follow the Group and tank into the brawl thanks to life steal, or rushing to CWs/ DCs hiding in the back of their group, to fast kill them or force them to disengage my allies. Also going at TRs if they're going at one of my CWs or DCs to knock down them from behind and kill them before they can one-shot my team mates.
And let's all face facts: ubergear is ubergear, and no matter how good an individual class is, an Ubergear super-regen sentinel or uber-gear super-alpha TR, etc, breaks the game. I have yet to see a case outside of DC's where rare and extremely costly gear isn't the point where the class is no longer balanced (past the live update, that is).
Pando83, your probably heading in the right direction though. I personally prefer the Gauntlegrym Valiant set with it's 1800 hp and 5% deflect/5% encounter slow effect for team play (which is the only play I participate in). I'm not as damage heavy as you, and miss my old destroyer build, but I have far more survivability, and tied with the other GWF's in my guild, can successfully play front line and 'draw aggro', per se, while players like yourself come in and finish the job. Many of my guildies actually prefer the AoW set or Titan, according to their damage or tank focus, though.
My kill is low, but my K/D is high because I rarely die. Your kill will be high, especially in teams, but your K/D is suspect simply due to your lowered survivability. Let a good DC/CW combination keep you up, and let the GF or a deflect/defense spec GWF play front line, and I am confident you'll do very, very well.
You already show the want to learn and expand. GWF is a lot harder to be great at then many give it credit for, especially for those of us who can't afford perfects and tenebrous'. And going back to the ubergear comment, if you can afford enough gear and have half a brain, you can make ANY class look OP.
And I'd love to run into you in GG or Arena, if you ever draw a character on Beholder. I always love a good fight. /salute
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Not necessarily true in my experience (granted I don't play a GWF but that makes my observation no less relevant). The GF is the counter to the TR and I'll explain why.
Most TR's will rely on stealth in PvP during the time that ItC is on cooldown, whilst flinging daggers with impunity from the shadows. This tactic is completely nullified by the fact that a GF can simply raise his shield and the TR has then effectively wasted his stealth bar to do no damage whatsoever to his opponent. GWF don't have this capability and thus will eat 8 daggers before they have a chance to really counter this method. True that GWF's may have uber defenses as well but the fact of the matter is the GF takes no damage, and the GWF takes some damage. Advantage GF.
When stealth is down and it's time for all out offense, again the GF will be better against the TR. A well geared GF can finish off a TR in two strikes. I have never seen a GWF be able to do the same. Couple this with the fact that if a TR is anywhere within striking distance of a GF then the TR will most likely spend the rest of his life either flying through the air like a volleyball, sweeping the floor with his HAMSTER like a broom or both (unless ItC is up in which case a smart TR will run from the GF). In the event that ItC is up and the TR is feeling brave, then he gets punished for attacking the GF by Supremacy of Steel. The GWF doesn't have this kind of capability so again advantage GF.
In pursuits a GF will once again do better than a GWF because of their infinite gap closer which is also an attack, and Lunging Strike which has HAMSTER range and can do HAMSTER damage. The GWF must sprint into range, pause for an attack, and hope the TR doesn't roll out of the way thus wasting at least two of the GWF's encounter powers. Advantage GF.
Most players who've spent much time observing PvP match ups will agree that GF's curbstomp TR's because GF's are best at mitigating damage which is the one thing TR's shine in doing. GWF's can do this, but not as well as the GF's can.
That's not to say that GWF's aren't the bane of another class, they are in fact and that class is the CW. Unstoppable breaks stun locks and sprint will cause most CW's to panic when the GWF remains right in their faces. I have seen many a CW go down to one round of encounter powers from a GWF which doesn't happen on smart TR's because of stealth and ItC.
In most cases...
GF owns TR
GWF owns CW
CW owns GF
TR owns DC
DC owns GWF
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
This point is not about GWF vs TR. If ANY class attempt to kill the overgeared rogue, it is always GWF who got best odds of all classes. Other thing is TR are still too high above other classes in both surviability and offence, thats the problem.
for GWFs it hurts the most they are not punished for mistakes and de-stealthed after being hit
also, they have more potent version of Unstoppable called ItC which makes the fight even more difficult, and yes I mean 75% damage reduction, CC immunity for longer time with same or better uptime
When playing my CW, I prefer facing GWFs over TRs anytime. It feels like the rogues are a good counter to the CWs especially in the PvP rules of chaotic combat. They open up, if you don't get one shotted, then you have to dodge 3 Impact Shots, end when you are able to respond you have to wait for 5 secs of ItC to wear off along with 2 dodges and daggers...Tough.
I had to disagree with the list, too. I generally have no difficulty killing or running off a rogue and can easily take a CW. GWF's are an equal match. But I avoid GF's like the plague they are, and DC's are simply too time consuming to kill most times. In my mind and as I play, it goes:
TR > CW
CW > GF
GF > GWF
GWF > TR
But from reading other players' opinions and their individual issues, it may be something more like this:
CW > GF, GWF
GF > GWF, TR
GWF > TR, CW
TR > CW, GF
Whereas each class has two other classes it can reasonably expected to do well against, subject to build, and two classes they have a more difficult time handling. And of course, nobodies really scared of DC's.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Having played CW for quite some months now I'd say only class CW can reliably beat, equal gearlevel considered, is another CW.
Can't do **** against GF.
GWF won't die so the fight goes on for hours.
TR is nowhere to be seen until he impactshots you to death, yes, CW with 30k hp melts like cheese from impact shots.
DC is another stalemate, he won't die. ever.
Now this is what generally happens. Sometimes you are very very lucky to have exactly right encounters slotted to demolish incoming opponents build and own their HAMSTER so bad they come screaming OP. CWs are too situational to work properly in equal gearlevel PvP. There is NO cookiecutter build at all.