Something really has to be done for these obvious troll reviewers.
Before today, Out of 67 plays, i only have 29 ratings, and less written reviews, but one thing is consistent, before today my ratings were
5 star = 13
4 star = 10
3 star = 1
2 star = 0
1 star = 1
(before you think I am trying brag...my quest has been live since the first day of open beta...that is a lot of months)
Then today I log in, see two more 5 star ratings, and then a 1-star rating with the feedback "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST". This brings the grand total to 32 reviews.
Many people work hard on their quests, and given how hard it is to get a non-farming quest played and rated, one or two reviews really hurt. My quest has been released since day one of open beta, as I worked on it during closed beta, and all this time, I have 32 ratings and 70 plays. 99% of the feedback has been positive. But for what? As shown below, one guy that ruin all that.
Here is the main issue for those of us without a ton of ratings to keep the low trolls in check. Unless you have hundreds of ratings to keep the average high, then the follow will occur to you.
Four days ago I had an average rating of 4.2 with 29 ratings (shown above)
Yesterday I got TWO 5 star ratings, and a single 1 star rating.
Despite those two 5 stars, that single troll dropped my hard worked from 4.2 average to a 4.1, showing that one troll/jerk/child can do that much damage even after two previous high ratings. Despite having 25 of my ratings now at 4 or above, and only 3 below four, my rating is struggling to keep at 4....Cryptics math makes no sense, and it gives trolls too much power. What would have happened if I get another 1 star, and no other ratings to balance it out?
I reported the guy as a UGC quest troll, of which they do exist in droves. I hope Cryptic will look into it, see that he does this to a lot of UGC and do something about him, but I know that 1-star is a stain that will never go away. And it is the complete ease at which another troll can go it and do the same thing, and without the to 5 stars to help counter, drop the average rating even lower.
The community needs to start reporting all of these. I am not talking reporting anyone with a 1-star, providing they give FEEDBACK as why it is rated so low. But there are MANY MANY MANY reasons you should report someone as a troll:
1. They don't read the quest information, and then rate low and ***** about something you clearly labeled in the quest description. Like you clearly say "this is a non-combat quest" in the description, and they rate 1 star saying "NO COMBAT, SUX." Authors should not be punished because players refuse to read the most basic part of the quest, the description.
2. They use the end loot as a reason for rating low, especially if like my quest, where I put a BRIGHT YELLOW disclaimer on the last dialogue screen that clearly states that I have NO SAY in what the box at the end drops. It says all of the loot in the chest is generated automatically by the game. This was the last dialogue prompt the player sees just before the box appears and the quest ends. And I get "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST"?
3. If you are getting generally 4-5 star ratings or even 2-3's with feedback saying things that make sense (and show that the players actually played and understood the quest but just did not like cetain parts) and then some guy rates 1 star and just says "quest sucks". To me that is not a valid opinion, that is some guy being a jerk and a troll. At least say WHY you think it sucks. My lowest rating aside from the two 1 stars(one which has no feedback) is that 3-star, and it clearly spells out why he thought I deserved a rating lower then my average. I may not agree with him(a few of his complaints were intended mechanics to counter known bugs in the foundry that would otherwise make the quest break) but at least he showed the intent to provide feedback. I will send him in game email with my own feedback explaining why I did certain things so he knows for other people who might do the same.
Often, many of these people that will do this to you will either have something against you (you won a loot roll in a random dungeon, killed them a lot in a battleground), they are a fellow author trying to lower averages of quests just above them using alt accounts, or they just feel like being a jerk that day...the internet it full of people like that.
Cryptic already showed they do not care at all about the Foundry from top to bottom. They like to pretend they do, but until they start to actually fix the major bugs that have been in since closed beta, get a actual working catalog browers with good search features, and do something to help promote the authors who work hard on a quest vs plopping out some 20 to create farm quest and dupping it everytime it gets deleted or drops off the new list then I will not trust Cryptic to fix this.
However, they can not as easily turn a blind eye to hundreds or thousands of GM tickets about troll reviewers. Even if Cryptic things these trolls are within their rights, the mass number of tickets will force them to do something to curb the mass numbers of tickets flooding their system.
Now I am not a supporter of the mentality we should artificially pump up peoples quests, as I feel we need to rate quests accuratly not just for the community, but for the author as well. If people hate my quest, and keep giving it 4-5 stars just because it is not a farm quest, I will never know and think it is a great quest. I think there are places you need to give out 2-3 stars, and even 1 stars (bugged, broken, harrassment, exploit, or an obvious farm job where a guy put down 10 Orgres in a grass field and hit publish).
Something really has to be done for these obvious troll reviewers.
Before today, Out of 67 plays, i only have 29 ratings, and less written reviews, but one thing is consistent, before today my ratings were
5 star = 13
4 star = 10
3 star = 1
2 star = 0
1 star = 1
(before you think I am trying brag...my quest has been live since the first day of open beta...that is a lot of months)
Then today I log in, see two more 5 star ratings, and then a 1-star rating with the feedback "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST". This brings the grand total to 32 reviews.
Many people work hard on their quests, and given how hard it is to get a non-farming quest played and rated, one or two reviews really hurt. My quest has been released since day one of open beta, as I worked on it during closed beta, and all this time, I have 32 ratings and 70 plays. 99% of the feedback has been positive. But for what? As shown below, one guy that ruin all that.
Here is the main issue for those of us without a ton of ratings to keep the low trolls in check. Unless you have hundreds of ratings to keep the average high, then the follow will occur to you.
Four days ago I had an average rating of 4.2 with 29 ratings (shown above)
Yesterday I got TWO 5 star ratings, and a single 1 star rating.
Despite those two 5 stars, that single troll dropped my hard worked from 4.2 average to a 4.1, showing that one troll/jerk/child can do that much damage even after two previous high ratings. Despite having 25 of my ratings now at 4 or above, and only 3 below four, my rating is struggling to keep at 4....Cryptics math makes no sense, and it gives trolls too much power. What would have happened if I get another 1 star, and no other ratings to balance it out?
I reported the guy as a UGC quest troll, of which they do exist in droves. I hope Cryptic will look into it, see that he does this to a lot of UGC and do something about him, but I know that 1-star is a stain that will never go away. And it is the complete ease at which another troll can go it and do the same thing, and without the to 5 stars to help counter, drop the average rating even lower.
The community needs to start reporting all of these. I am not talking reporting anyone with a 1-star, providing they give FEEDBACK as why it is rated so low. But there are MANY MANY MANY reasons you should report someone as a troll:
1. They don't read the quest information, and then rate low and ***** about something you clearly labeled in the quest description. Like you clearly say "this is a non-combat quest" in the description, and they rate 1 star saying "NO COMBAT, SUX." Authors should not be punished because players refuse to read the most basic part of the quest, the description.
2. They use the end loot as a reason for rating low, especially if like my quest, where I put a BRIGHT YELLOW disclaimer on the last dialogue screen that clearly states that I have NO SAY in what the box at the end drops. It says all of the loot in the chest is generated automatically by the game. This was the last dialogue prompt the player sees just before the box appears and the quest ends. And I get "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST"?
3. If you are getting generally 4-5 star ratings or even 2-3's with feedback saying things that make sense (and show that the players actually played and understood the quest but just did not like cetain parts) and then some guy rates 1 star and just says "quest sucks". To me that is not a valid opinion, that is some guy being a jerk and a troll. At least say WHY you think it sucks. My lowest rating aside from the two 1 stars(one which has no feedback) is that 3-star, and it clearly spells out why he thought I deserved a rating lower then my average. I may not agree with him(a few of his complaints were intended mechanics to counter known bugs in the foundry that would otherwise make the quest break) but at least he showed the intent to provide feedback. I will send him in game email with my own feedback explaining why I did certain things so he knows for other people who might do the same.
Often, many of these people that will do this to you will either have something against you (you won a loot roll in a random dungeon, killed them a lot in a battleground), they are a fellow author trying to lower averages of quests just above them using alt accounts, or they just feel like being a jerk that day...the internet it full of people like that.
Cryptic already showed they do not care at all about the Foundry from top to bottom. They like to pretend they do, but until they start to actually fix the major bugs that have been in since closed beta, get a actual working catalog browers with good search features, and do something to help promote the authors who work hard on a quest vs plopping out some 20 to create farm quest and dupping it everytime it gets deleted or drops off the new list then I will not trust Cryptic to fix this.
However, they can not as easily turn a blind eye to hundreds or thousands of GM tickets about troll reviewers. Even if Cryptic things these trolls are within their rights, the mass number of tickets will force them to do something to curb the mass numbers of tickets flooding their system.
Now I am not a supporter of the mentality we should artificially pump up peoples quests, as I feel we need to rate quests accuratly not just for the community, but for the author as well. If people hate my quest, and keep giving it 4-5 stars just because it is not a farm quest, I will never know and think it is a great quest. I think there are places you need to give out 2-3 stars, and even 1 stars (bugged, broken, harrassment, exploit, or an obvious farm job where a guy put down 10 Orgres in a grass field and hit publish).
That is my rant. Continue on.
I agree with you about how low ratings have a greater impact than good ratings. My latest quest had over a hundred and forty ratings, the vast majority of which were 4 to 5 stars. Between every three or four five star ratings, I'd get a two or three star. At first I thought, no big deal, I'm getting mostly good ratings, my adjusted rating should climb slowly. Despite consistently getting far more good ratings than bad, and my average rating staying exactly the same, my adjusted rating never got any higher. Every time I got enough five star ratings to make it gain 0.01 adjusted rating points, which ranged from five to two as my number of plays got higher, I'd get a three star review, and lose that fraction of a point, or even more. Couple this with the fact exploiters have no problem climbing the list, and many of us are forced to conclude the rating system is totally broken, and/or just being abused.
I agree with you about how low ratings have a greater impact than good ratings. My latest quest had over a hundred and forty ratings, the vast majority of which were 4 to 5 stars. Between every three or four five star ratings, I'd get a two or three star. At first I thought, no big deal, I'm getting mostly good ratings, my adjusted rating should climb slowly. Despite consistently getting far more good ratings than bad, and my average rating staying exactly the same, my adjusted rating never got any higher. Every time I got enough five star ratings to make it gain 0.01 adjusted rating points, which ranged from five to two as my number of plays got higher, I'd get a three star review, and lose that fraction of a point, or even more. Couple this with the fact exploiters have no problem climbing the list, and many of us are forced to conclude the rating system is totally broken, and/or just being abused.
I think your last sentence says a lot of how some think.
You need to find out how the "exploiters" are climbing the lists and your quests are not. Either there are a lot of players who love those maps, the rating system is broken, or the system is being abused. If you feel it is the last... You must remember the there are several ways to "abuse" the rating system. Is rating an "exploitation" map 5* abusing the system? Is rating an "average" quest 5* abusing the system?
Just a thought.
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
I think your last sentence says a lot of how some think.
You need to find out how the "exploiters" are climbing the lists and your quests are not. Either there are a lot of players who love those maps, the rating system is broken, or the system is being abused. If you feel it is the last... You must remember the there are several ways to "abuse" the rating system. Is rating an "exploitation" map 5* abusing the system? Is rating an "average" quest 5* abusing the system?
Just a thought.
I'd say rating an exploitation map five stars is definitely abusing the system. An average quest? I don't think so, that's a personal decision to help a fellow author. As for there being a lot of players that like exploit maps, my quests have had far more five star ratings than those maps even have plays. Yet mine can't compete with them because of a small number of average ratings. I'm not even talking about 1 star troll ratings, I had like 2 of those out of 145+ ratings. Just one three star rating can cause you to lose all the progress from multiple five star reviews in terms of adjusted rating points. A 1 star rating is even worse. When I got two to four times as many five star ratings alone as an exploit map has ratings total, and that exploit map is sitting twenty spots higher than mine on the list because less than a dozen people thought my quest was mediocre, I say the rating system is broken.
2. They use the end loot as a reason for rating low, especially if like my quest, where I put a BRIGHT YELLOW disclaimer on the last dialogue screen that clearly states that I have NO SAY in what the box at the end drops. It says all of the loot in the chest is generated automatically by the game. This was the last dialogue prompt the player sees just before the box appears and the quest ends. And I get "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST"?
Unfortunately you are assuming these imbeciles have the capability to read the written word.
@hercooles - being stupid is not a reportable offense. Take it on the chin, or don't bother publishing - there are a lot of stupid people out there.
There is a different between being stupid. And doing somthing that negatively affects another players hard work could be reportable. Lowering UGC's average rating on purpose because you have an issue with the author, or just want to do it because you get a rise out of that kind of stuff is griefing, and is reportable. Doing in because you just plain do not care to read the quest description, or the disclaimers about loot most authors put in their quest may not be griefing as your not doing it with the explicit intent to artificially lower someones average, but it still has a huge negative affect on the Foundry as a whole and should not be tolerated.
Taking it on the chin would be getting a really harsh negative review. I can handle that, I can handle if someone wants to tell me every flaw in my quest.
But there is no reason you should have to put up with stupid in ANY game if it affects you more then just being able to ignore said stupid player. Some player is being stupid in a random dungeon? Kick him. Being stupid in chat? put him on ignore, being stupid with a peice of work that you put 100 hours into...ya You can't ignore those "stupid" people that manage to drag your content through the dirt just because they failed to read or comprehend what they were getting into.
Not to mention I think it is a lot less with stupid, as it is with people that just don't care.
Also I agree with Wushin, which is not always.
It is less that those exploit, or even legit farming maps are more popular, it is that they have a core audience of players who just rate them all 5 stars. They do not get low ratings because the players that WOULD rate them lower, stay away from them. I for one will not even go into a farming or exploit map, even to down rate it, because then I am no better then the rest, going into a quest with the sole intent to lower it's ratings. Most genuine authors are the same.
However, there is nothing stopping the kind of players who do not care about anyone but them selves and their own advancment from coming into our maps, seeing it is not a farm easy mode exploit map and clicking one star.
So as wushin said, they only "seem" more popular due to the fact they have fewer reviews total, but happen to all be 5 stars (with feedback like "awesome" "best quest ever" "epix man". Where as a story with more substance will have far more variable feedback.
I'd say rating an exploitation map five stars is definitely abusing the system. An average quest? I don't think so, that's a personal decision to help a fellow author. As for there being a lot of players that like exploit maps, my quests have had far more five star ratings than those maps even have plays. Yet mine can't compete with them because of a small number of average ratings. I'm not even talking about 1 star troll ratings, I had like 2 of those out of 145+ ratings. Just one three star rating can cause you to lose all the progress from multiple five star reviews in terms of adjusted rating points. A 1 star rating is even worse. When I got two to four times as many five star ratings alone as an exploit map has ratings total, and that exploit map is sitting twenty spots higher than mine on the list because less than a dozen people thought my quest was mediocre, I say the rating system is broken.
I get what you are saying. But the problem is... How do we know if the system is broken until we know how it is supposed to work?
Just my opinion here... But 5* rating a quest just to help it get a better score is also abusing the system. But I guess honesty in an MMO rating system is asking too much.
My rating system is like this... A quest has to be perfect or nearly perfect (IMHO) to get a 5* rating. (And I also have to enjoy it a lot) Some quests may be nearly perfect in design, but I am not enjoying it... And if I feel it needs a lot of work (again IMHO) I will 3* it. If it is really bad I will not rate it and PM or ingame mail the author what I feel is wrong. Si I never 2* or 1* anything.
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
It is less that those exploit, or even legit farming maps are more popular, it is that they have a core audience of players who just rate them all 5 stars. They do not get low ratings because the players that WOULD rate them lower, stay away from them. I for one will not even go into a farming or exploit map, even to down rate it, because then I am no better then the rest, going into a quest with the sole intent to lower it's ratings. Most genuine authors are the same.
However, there is nothing stopping the kind of players who do not care about anyone but them selves and their own advancment from coming into our maps, seeing it is not a farm easy mode exploit map and clicking one star.
So as wushin said, they only "seem" more popular due to the fact they have fewer reviews total, but happen to all be 5 stars (with feedback like "awesome" "best quest ever" "epix man". Where as a story with more substance will have far more variable feedback.
I agree, I mentioned before that the reason most of the legitimate Foundry quests can't compete with the exploits is because everyone is so overly critical of them, and the people who play exploit quests indeed give them five star ratings with a sort of religious zeal. My problem with the system is that it does not care if I have 100 five star ratings, it puts exploit maps with only around thirty plays near the list over mine, just because I had a handful of mediocre reviews.
I get what you are saying. But the problem is... How do we know if the system is broken until we know how it is supposed to work?
Just my opinion here... But 5* rating a quest just to help it get a better score is also abusing the system. But I guess honesty in an MMO rating system is asking too much.
My rating system is like this... A quest has to be perfect or nearly perfect (IMHO) to get a 5* rating. (And I also have to enjoy it a lot) Some quests may be nearly perfect in design, but I am not enjoying it... And if I feel it needs a lot of work (again IMHO) I will 3* it. If it is really bad I will not rate it and PM or ingame mail the author what I feel is wrong. Si I never 2* or 1* anything.
Some people have a huge problem with my idea of giving other Foundry authors five star ratings. Maybe it is dishonest, but the results would be beneficial to the community, so you could think of it as a white lie. Also, since the rating system is SUPPOSED to be relative to other quests, and we're being plagued by exploit maps that sometimes even make the Best list, I think giving another author anything less than five stars in this time of crisis is just as bad as rating one of those exploit maps five stars, because you're STILL helping the exploit maps stay on top, even if you hand out four star ratings, that's not good enough because you're basically telling that author those exploits are better than their quest and most likely lowering their adjusted rating. The Foundry community can be a team like the exploiters and beat them, or they can continue to give each other three star ratings with reviews like, "OMG THIS QUEST IS EPIC!"
I realize my ideas are radical, but don't worry. I won't be going around five-starring your quests, and my own quests are withdrawn so nobody can five-star them anymore. The reason I propose this solution is to help the Foundry community save itself. When it no longer becomes necessary for us to have ONLY five star ratings to have our quests visible to our audience, I'll republish my quests, and maybe start working on the next installment of my campaign. It really is BS that even with all my good ratings, my quests got buried under exploits. Maybe my quests aren't the greatest, but if my audience as a whole REALLY thinks exploit maps are better, it's not an audience worth catering to. Maybe they don't really feel that way, but it doesn't change the adjusted ratings.
I agree, I mentioned before that the reason most of the legitimate Foundry quests can't compete with the exploits is because everyone is so overly critical of them, and the people who play exploit quests indeed give them five star ratings with a sort of religious zeal. My problem with the system is that it does not care if I have 100 five star ratings, it puts exploit maps with only around thirty plays near the list over mine, just because I had a handful of mediocre reviews.
And by overly critical you mean honest... Right?
Some people have a huge problem with my idea of giving other Foundry authors five star ratings. Maybe it is dishonest, but the results would be beneficial to the community, so you could think of it as a white lie. Also, since the rating system is SUPPOSED to be relative to other quests, and we're being plagued by exploit maps that sometimes even make the Best list, I think giving another author anything less than five stars in this time of crisis is just as bad as rating one of those exploit maps five stars, because you're STILL helping the exploit maps stay on top, even if you hand out four star ratings, that's not good enough because you're basically telling that author those exploits are better than their quest and most likely lowering their adjusted rating. The Foundry community can be a team like the exploiters and beat them, or they can continue to give each other three star ratings with reviews like, "OMG THIS QUEST IS EPIC!"
Maybe it is dishonest? IMHO if you give a quest a rating you do not really believe it deserves, that is dishonest.
What you are saying in this paragraph is... If you give an honest opinion of the quest you just did, you are doing a disservice to the author and the community. And no, if you 4* a quest, you are not telling exploit authors their quest is better.
I realize my ideas are radical, but don't worry. I won't be going around five-starring your quests, and my own quests are withdrawn so nobody can five-star them anymore. The reason I propose this solution is to help the Foundry community save itself. When it no longer becomes necessary for us to have ONLY five star ratings to have our quests visible to our audience, I'll republish my quests, and maybe start working on the next installment of my campaign. It really is BS that even with all my good ratings, my quests got buried under exploits. Maybe my quests aren't the greatest, but if my audience as a whole REALLY thinks exploit maps are better, it's not an audience worth catering to. Maybe they don't really feel that way, but it doesn't change the adjusted ratings.
I do not want anyone to 5* my quest if they do not feel it actually deserves one. You are not actually helping the Foundry community. You are helping the rather small Foundry Forum community. Unless you are actually talking about going online and playing every foundry quest that you can that is not an exploit and 5*ing them also.
You are making judgements here that are unfounded. You seem to be saying that if someone plays your quest and does not 5* it they think that the exploit quests are better.
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
You are making judgements here that are unfounded. You seem to be saying that if someone plays your quest and does not 5* it they think that the exploit quests are better.
You don't seem to clearly understand how the adjusted rating system works. Either that, or you just don't care about anyone else's adjusted rating. The Foundry community cannot afford to keep giving honest ratings. The negative impact of even a three star review right now can knock someone below almost every exploit on the list. Honesty is not always a good thing. If you go to the Special Olympics, are you going to call every competitor a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because you're honest? How honest would you be with your boss at work? How about your mother in-law, gonna tell her every intimate detail of yours and her daughter's sex life? The whole point of having a Foundry community is so that we can support each other. Authors who do not give a **** about any author but themselves need not apply. No one will want to support you after you've helped tear them down anyway. I can tell you that from experience, as someone who has given plenty of honest ratings, and now deeply regrets some of them.
As I said before, I'm no longer participating in the Foundry aside from making suggestions on the forum. I'm not making quests, rating them, or receiving ratings. Hate my idea? Fine. Go ahead and three star some authors. Hope it makes you feel better. If every Foundry author would just listen though, and do as I say, exploits would no longer be a problem, and there would still be plenty of honest players to sort out the list accordingly.
Hate my idea? Fine. Go ahead and three star some authors. Hope it makes you feel better. If every Foundry author would just listen though, and do as I say, exploits would no longer be a problem, and there would still be plenty of honest players to sort out the list accordingly.
If everyone gave 5 stars to every non-exploit quest, what would sort the good quests from the bad? The problem arises when I decide I want to play a certain type of foundry mission, but I can't choose one because every legit mission has 5 stars from now on. What if I'm not into heavy combat or humor? Would these "phenomenal" quests labeled as such change my perspective, or is it just more abuse from the broken system?
Cryptic should take responsibility for caring for their Foundry upon themselves. That's my bottom line.
If everyone gave 5 stars to every non-exploit quest, what would sort the good quests from the bad? The problem arises when I decide I want to play a certain type of foundry mission, but I can't choose one because every legit mission has 5 stars from now on. What if I'm not into heavy combat or humor? Would these "phenomenal" quests labeled as such change my perspective, or is it just more abuse from the broken system?
Cryptic should take responsibility for caring for their Foundry upon themselves. That's my bottom line.
I agree, Cryptic should. Unfortunately, they haven't, which is why we're here trying to think of ways to care for it ourselves. As I said in the post you quoted, there would be plenty of honest players to sort out the list.
I have another idea, a way that YOU and others like you can help the Foundry community, without tarnishing your much valued sense of honesty. Just honestly rate all the exploit maps. If you and one or two other authors took the time to one star all the exploits, we wouldn't be seeing them anymore, because they do NOT have enough ratings to absorb the impact of a few one stars. I'm actually surprised this hasn't already been done.
Edit: Scratch that part about not having enough ratings. I just checked, and it seems that it is now too late for us to simply down-vote our way out of this mess, because the exploits have more plays than they used to.
I have another idea, a way that YOU and others like you can help the Foundry community, without tarnishing your much valued sense of honesty. Just honestly rate all the exploit maps. If you and one or two other authors took the time to one star all the exploits, we wouldn't be seeing them anymore, because they do NOT have enough ratings to absorb the impact of a few one stars. I'm actually surprised this hasn't already been done.
YOU have an idea? It's Zovya's number one tip in the opening post.
It doesn't need to be done in isolation either, honest reviews can still be given. If exploit maps rise above genuine quests then all the better. With nowhere to hide they will hopefully be removed all the sooner now the system seems to be working.
As for the other off-topic discussion I have a couple of comments:
1) The quality of works coming out of the Foundry is just getting better and better. All things being relative, that means that something worthy of a 4 or 5 rating back in May, may only be considered a 2 or 3 today.
2) No matter how stupid someone might be, IF THEY ENJOYED YOUR QUEST, they aren't going to rate it all the way down to 1* just because the chest didn't give them a reward.
YOU have an idea? It's Zovya's number one tip in the opening post.
It doesn't need to be done in isolation either, honest reviews can still be given. If exploit maps rise above genuine quests then all the better. With nowhere to hide they will hopefully be removed all the sooner now the system seems to be working.
As for the other off-topic discussion I have a couple of comments:
1) The quality of works coming out of the Foundry is just getting better and better. All things being relative, that means that something worthy of a 4 or 5 rating back in May, may only be considered a 2 or 3 today.
2) No matter how stupid someone might be, IF THEY ENJOYED YOUR QUEST, they aren't going to rate it all the way down to 1* just because the chest didn't give them a reward.
Actually, I seem to remember Zovya saying to refrain from giving them ratings, as they might possibly cancel out the reports. Though the post may have been edited since then. As for point number two, there are apparently people out there stupider than what you believe to be possible. This is evidenced by the fact that authors constantly get reviews like, "Great quest, but no loot. - 1 star" Maybe those are just trolls, but they're still stupid.
I do think there are people who think the ratings are based on "Aces High", yes. It doesn't necessarily make them any more stupid than the "didn't enjoy it...too much reading" 4 or 5* reviews I've seen. It all balances out
I do think there are people who think the ratings are based on "Aces High", yes. It doesn't necessarily make them any more stupid than the "didn't enjoy it...too much reading" 4 or 5* reviews I've seen. It all balances out
No, Karitr, it does not balance out. If it all balanced out, this thread would not need to exist. Us Foundry authors are all in the same trench, fighting the same enemy, and some of us want to take shots at each other instead of the enemy, while everyone who hasn't been shot at yet wants to just pretend everything is okay. You're a player, I can't expect you to understand the thoughts and feelings of many Foundry authors who had their work pushed off the list by these exploits, got trolled anonymously, or got their quest taken down prematurely for reasons still unknown two weeks after publishing. You don't have any personal investment in a quest, so you have no idea what it's like to work so hard for weeks to earn a few fractions of a point, only to have them taken away in the blink of an eye by someone because someone didn't get good enough loot. It's beyond your understanding. If you truly want to understand, you'll have to make a quest, publish it, and try to get plays yourself.
You don't seem to clearly understand how the adjusted rating system works. Either that, or you just don't care about anyone else's adjusted rating. The Foundry community cannot afford to keep giving honest ratings.
My personal integrity is not for sale, for money or ideological reasons.
I will always give an honest review/rating.
If I were to do any other I would be no better than the people who lower themselves and sell their integrity for quick XP in an exploit map.
Once we start trying to use dishonesty as a weapon against the dishonest portion of the player base they have won - they dragged us down to their level.
I for one won't be a part of that fall from grace.
My personal integrity is not for sale, for money or ideological reasons.
I will always give an honest review/rating.
If I were to do any other I would be no better than the people who lower themselves and sell their integrity for quick XP in an exploit map.
Once we start trying to use dishonesty as a weapon against the dishonest portion of the player base they have won - they dragged us down to their level.
I for one won't be a part of that fall from grace.
All The Best
I don't care about the means, just the end result. The end result of reporting has proven not to be good enough, since these maps are so simple they can be replicated in a day, and they regain any lost footing on the lists just as quickly. There are already several exploits on the list with an adjusted rating of over 4.0, which I never got even on Campaigns & Kobolds, despite over 400 mostly positive ratings. If you have a better idea to combat these exploiters, I'd like to hear it.
The balance comment I made and you quoted had nothing to do with exploit quests.
Since this thread was created, it would seem that reporting the exploit maps IS working, they are being taken down. I don't expect you to feel positive about that, but even if you can't be positive can you at least contribute to the topic so the thread isn't locked or removed.
Just carry on reporting any new quests that appear. Sominator has already stated that repeat offenders will have their Foundry privileges removed completely.
The balance comment I made and you quoted had nothing to do with exploit quests.
Since this thread was created, it would seem that reporting the exploit maps IS working, they are being taken down. I don't expect you to feel positive about that, but even if you can't be positive can you at least contribute to the topic so the thread isn't locked or removed.
Just carry on reporting any new quests that appear. Sominator has already stated that repeat offenders will have their Foundry privileges removed completely.
Since hercooles130uscg's post was spliced into this thread, Zeb has changed the title of the thread to reflect the change in the topic of discussion. You'll notice it is now titled, "Tips to Combat Exploit Maps & UGC Listing Feedback and Suggestions", meaning all my feedback and suggestions regarding the UGC Listing is on-topic. Please be constructive, instead of just refuting every post with off-topic comments about balance, or telling people to just take it on the chin or to not bother publishing..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Since hercooles130uscg's post was spliced into this thread, Zeb has changed the title of the thread to reflect the change in the topic of discussion. You'll notice it is now titled, "Tips to Combat Exploit Maps & UGC Listing Feedback and Suggestions", meaning all my feedback and suggestions regarding the UGC Listing is on-topic. Please be constructive, instead of just refuting every post with off-topic comments about balance, or telling people to just take it on the chin or to not bother publishing..
. . . . . It never was a change in Thread Subject, as I outlined in my early replies. The Subject Title (not thread subject) Changes were not a Thread Subject Change, but to try and be clear as it continued to be dismissed and confronted. This last change was not only to be more clear but also to stand apart inthe new ordering of this forum's stickies.This thread has been, since my early replies stated, about tips and feedback to stop exploit maps from skewing the foundry results as well as outlining the major way, which is to report them.
. . . . . I'm only responding this to try and stop this argument and be clear in what this thread is for. If you have any issues with this, contact me by PM or send a complaint to Sominator.
. . . . . I do not encourage anyone to play through suspected missions just to intently single out a mission and accuse it of being an exploit by rating it one star, with or without a review. That is a wrong, akin to witch hunt... If one feels a UGC is exploitative, leave it and report it through the Behavior option in a GM Ticket, as outlined in the OP of this thread.
Since hercooles130uscg's post was spliced into this thread, Zeb has changed the title of the thread to reflect the change in the topic of discussion. You'll notice it is now titled, "Tips to Combat Exploit Maps & UGC Listing Feedback and Suggestions", meaning all my feedback and suggestions regarding the UGC Listing is on-topic. Please be constructive, instead of just refuting every post with off-topic comments about balance, or telling people to just take it on the chin or to not bother publishing..
Well I understand that you would like to fan the flames of hercooles rage at being 1-starred, but it isn't at all constructive.
One stars are going to happen and yes an author should take it on the chin or not publish - for the sake of their mental and emotional well-being. An isolated 1* review is neither trolling or reportable - Cryptic allowed players 5 levels of rating and we are free to use all of them.
I'd have no issue with the ratings themselves being removed, but then I read and like to get a feel for what other players - who enjoy the same things I do - think about quests. However, no ratings may hurt the type of quests that are not based on story and/or are designed as quick dailies. FACT: Short, daily quests receive a lower percentage of reviews to plays than longer, more involved quests.
Hopefully the new tag system will allow more quests to show up on the catalogue, but till then, if you really wanted to support your fellow author, you could do it in a positive way instead of encouraging feelings of persecution and isolation.
And by the way, till you put your quests back up, you are no more a Foundry author than I am
You don't seem to clearly understand how the adjusted rating system works. Either that, or you just don't care about anyone else's adjusted rating.
OK. Please explain to me how the adjusted rating works. And I am not talking about I got a 3* rating and it took away all of the previous 5* ratings. How "exactly" does it work?
The truth be told... I do not care about my own adjusted rating. I do not make foundry quests for ratings/plays/adoration. I make them because I enjoy making them.
The Foundry community cannot afford to keep giving honest ratings. The negative impact of even a three star review right now can knock someone below almost every exploit on the list. Honesty is not always a good thing.
So it is sometimes a good thing to steal/cheat your way to success?
If you go to the Special Olympics, are you going to call every competitor a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because you're honest?
No. Because I am not being ask to pass judgement on their mental ability.
How honest would you be with your boss at work?
When asked a question by my boss I have always been truthful.
How about your mother in-law, gonna tell her every intimate detail of yours and her daughter's sex life?
If my mother in law is dumb enough to ask me about my sex life with her daughter... Dang right I will.
The whole point of having a Foundry community is so that we can support each other. Authors who do not give a **** about any author but themselves need not apply. No one will want to support you after you've helped tear them down anyway. I can tell you that from experience, as someone who has given plenty of honest ratings, and now deeply regrets some of them.
As I said before, I'm no longer participating in the Foundry aside from making suggestions on the forum. I'm not making quests, rating them, or receiving ratings. Hate my idea? Fine. Go ahead and three star some authors. Hope it makes you feel better. If every Foundry author would just listen though, and do as I say, exploits would no longer be a problem, and there would still be plenty of honest players to sort out the list accordingly.
Really? If every author would just listen to you, everything would be just dandy?
I am a firm believer that no matter what you do, exploits will always be around. Hopefully not as bad as it seems they are now. It is just like other problems... PEDs in sports, cheating on tests... They will always be around.
Edit to ask a question:
Since you brought up the Special Olympics and bosses etc...
If you were a teacher (K-12) and you suspected some of your students were cheating, you just could not prove it. Would you grade the other students tests with all "A"s to help them rise above the cheaters?
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
I have another idea, a way that YOU and others like you can help the Foundry community, without tarnishing your much valued sense of honesty. Just honestly rate all the exploit maps. If you and one or two other authors took the time to one star all the exploits, we wouldn't be seeing them anymore, because they do NOT have enough ratings to absorb the impact of a few one stars. I'm actually surprised this hasn't already been done.
Edit: Scratch that part about not having enough ratings. I just checked, and it seems that it is now too late for us to simply down-vote our way out of this mess, because the exploits have more plays than they used to.
To be honest... I have never played an exploit map. But if I ever find myself in one, I will just quit it and report it. No play. No rating.
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
OK. Please explain to me how the adjusted rating works. And I am not talking about I got a 3* rating and it took away all of the previous 5* ratings. How "exactly" does it work?
Based on multiple reports, it does not work like it was stated by devs during Foundry beta to work. There's no way a single 3 star review for a quest with hundreds of 4-5 stars, and single/low double digits of other stars, should drop a quest as much as they are.
That may be. But Muhsin was stating that I do not understand the way it works or that I do not care. So I was asking him to explain it to me since he seems to know how it does work.
It works pretty much the way Koboldbard said. I've posted a couple of examples in the past in the thread linked below.
Alright, so we all know Campaigns & Kobolds was successful. It sat near the top with a 3.8-3.9 adjusted rating forever.
Then it vanished from the list. Right after I published the sequel. I added them both to a campaign titled "The Wizard Games", and it took a couple of weeks for the campaign to even show up. Both quests were published when added to the campaign. Anyway, after it did show up, the plays from Campaigns & Kobolds never counted. The adjusted rating as of now is 3.64, and the campaign sits beneath the third or fourth duplicate of an exploit map in the list. It only counts a little over a hundred plays, and because of duplicates of the same map clogging the list, and my inability to acquire more than one or two plays a day due to where my campaign sits in the list, there's no way this campaign will ever have the adjusted rating it deserves before it vanishes into the void. Here are my ratings on both my quests for those of you about to argue I don't deserve an adjusted rating higher than 3.64...
Campaigns & Kobolds
Zigby's First Strike
I'm not sure I even want to bother with a sequel since I'm going to have to sit beneath four copies of the same exploit map, and if I do add a sequel to the campaign it is likely to just reset the plays on it, and push me even further down the list. Had certain Foundry authors and certain players been more supportive, instead of taking out their inability to defeat kobold minions and lack of potions on my adjusted rating, I wouldn't have this problem. I would have been high up enough on the list to get enough plays. But that handful of 1-3 star reviews y'all had to give me really hurt. Thanks to those who did support me though. You're awesome.
After that thread a lot of Foundry authors including Zeb showed support in good ratings, but a minority of low ratings destroyed all that progress, as seen in the post quoted below, which I made in the same thread later on.
I got a lot of support today from the Foundry community in the form of several good ratings. But since this thread is about how the adjusted rating system sucks, especially when dealing with campaigns, I thought I'd run some numbers by everyone to see if the progress I've made today is even relative to your ratings. It doesn't seem like it is, from my perspective.
Here are the ratings at the moment I am typing this post.
Campaigns & Kobolds
5 Stars - 184 (3 more than when I started this thread)
4 Stars - 143 (same as before)
3 Stars - 76 (same as before)
2 Stars - 19 (1 more than before)
1 Star - 14 (Again, same as before)
Zigby's First Strike
5 Stars - 39 (1 more than before)
4 Stars - 15 (1 more than before)
3 Stars - 8 (same as before)
2 Stars - 4 (same as before)
1 Star - 5 (same as before)
IN SUMMARY:
I've received four 5 star reviews, one 4 star review, and one 2 star review. Thanks to the four 5 star reviews, and the 4 star review, my campaign gained 0.02 adjusted rating points. Then I got that 2 star review on the quest that already has over 400 ratings, which apparently don't count when it comes to the adjusted rating of my campaign. My adjusted rating for my campaign drops 0.01 points. Half the progress I made today is gone because of one rating. Now let's do some more math to see how many five star ratings I'd need in order to make the Best list.
My adjusted rating is 3.65 right now. Four five star ratings, and a four star rating gave me 0.02 adjusted rating points today. So let's say five good ratings can give me 0.02 adjusted rating points. This number might be higher for people with less ratings, or even lower for people with more ratings. But this is the current rate for me at 136 plays for my campaign.
It takes five good ratings to earn 0.02 adjusted rating points, and five times that to earn 0.1 adjusted rating points. Five times five is twenty five, people. Right now, the lowest adjusted rating on the Best list is 4.16. If my adjusted rating is 3.65, I'll have to earn 0.51 adjusted rating points. That means AT LEAST (the number can only get larger as ratings begin to have less impact on the adjusted rating) 125 good ratings plus an additional five for every rating of 3 or below along the way.
At the current ratio of one bad rating for every five, we'd get twenty five more bad reviews. In order to compensate for the progress lost for those twenty five bad reviews, you'll have to get another one hundred and twenty five good reviews, plus an additional five for every bad review.
Are you starting to see how this system is sort of broken? Bad and mediocre reviews have far more impact than good reviews.
Then there's this post from the thread we're in now.
Something really has to be done for these obvious troll reviewers.
Before today, Out of 67 plays, i only have 29 ratings, and less written reviews, but one thing is consistent, before today my ratings were
5 star = 13
4 star = 10
3 star = 1
2 star = 0
1 star = 1
(before you think I am trying brag...my quest has been live since the first day of open beta...that is a lot of months)
Then today I log in, see two more 5 star ratings, and then a 1-star rating with the feedback "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST". This brings the grand total to 32 reviews.
Many people work hard on their quests, and given how hard it is to get a non-farming quest played and rated, one or two reviews really hurt. My quest has been released since day one of open beta, as I worked on it during closed beta, and all this time, I have 32 ratings and 70 plays. 99% of the feedback has been positive. But for what? As shown below, one guy that ruin all that.
Here is the main issue for those of us without a ton of ratings to keep the low trolls in check. Unless you have hundreds of ratings to keep the average high, then the follow will occur to you.
Four days ago I had an average rating of 4.2 with 29 ratings (shown above)
Yesterday I got TWO 5 star ratings, and a single 1 star rating.
Despite those two 5 stars, that single troll dropped my hard worked from 4.2 average to a 4.1, showing that one troll/jerk/child can do that much damage even after two previous high ratings. Despite having 25 of my ratings now at 4 or above, and only 3 below four, my rating is struggling to keep at 4....Cryptics math makes no sense, and it gives trolls too much power. What would have happened if I get another 1 star, and no other ratings to balance it out?
I reported the guy as a UGC quest troll, of which they do exist in droves. I hope Cryptic will look into it, see that he does this to a lot of UGC and do something about him, but I know that 1-star is a stain that will never go away. And it is the complete ease at which another troll can go it and do the same thing, and without the to 5 stars to help counter, drop the average rating even lower.
The community needs to start reporting all of these. I am not talking reporting anyone with a 1-star, providing they give FEEDBACK as why it is rated so low. But there are MANY MANY MANY reasons you should report someone as a troll:
1. They don't read the quest information, and then rate low and ***** about something you clearly labeled in the quest description. Like you clearly say "this is a non-combat quest" in the description, and they rate 1 star saying "NO COMBAT, SUX." Authors should not be punished because players refuse to read the most basic part of the quest, the description.
2. They use the end loot as a reason for rating low, especially if like my quest, where I put a BRIGHT YELLOW disclaimer on the last dialogue screen that clearly states that I have NO SAY in what the box at the end drops. It says all of the loot in the chest is generated automatically by the game. This was the last dialogue prompt the player sees just before the box appears and the quest ends. And I get "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST"?
3. If you are getting generally 4-5 star ratings or even 2-3's with feedback saying things that make sense (and show that the players actually played and understood the quest but just did not like cetain parts) and then some guy rates 1 star and just says "quest sucks". To me that is not a valid opinion, that is some guy being a jerk and a troll. At least say WHY you think it sucks. My lowest rating aside from the two 1 stars(one which has no feedback) is that 3-star, and it clearly spells out why he thought I deserved a rating lower then my average. I may not agree with him(a few of his complaints were intended mechanics to counter known bugs in the foundry that would otherwise make the quest break) but at least he showed the intent to provide feedback. I will send him in game email with my own feedback explaining why I did certain things so he knows for other people who might do the same.
Often, many of these people that will do this to you will either have something against you (you won a loot roll in a random dungeon, killed them a lot in a battleground), they are a fellow author trying to lower averages of quests just above them using alt accounts, or they just feel like being a jerk that day...the internet it full of people like that.
Cryptic already showed they do not care at all about the Foundry from top to bottom. They like to pretend they do, but until they start to actually fix the major bugs that have been in since closed beta, get a actual working catalog browers with good search features, and do something to help promote the authors who work hard on a quest vs plopping out some 20 to create farm quest and dupping it everytime it gets deleted or drops off the new list then I will not trust Cryptic to fix this.
However, they can not as easily turn a blind eye to hundreds or thousands of GM tickets about troll reviewers. Even if Cryptic things these trolls are within their rights, the mass number of tickets will force them to do something to curb the mass numbers of tickets flooding their system.
Now I am not a supporter of the mentality we should artificially pump up peoples quests, as I feel we need to rate quests accuratly not just for the community, but for the author as well. If people hate my quest, and keep giving it 4-5 stars just because it is not a farm quest, I will never know and think it is a great quest. I think there are places you need to give out 2-3 stars, and even 1 stars (bugged, broken, harrassment, exploit, or an obvious farm job where a guy put down 10 Orgres in a grass field and hit publish).
That is my rant. Continue on.
And many other posts like these from other authors I'm sure.
Your posts, tho informative... Do not explain how the adjusted rating works. Just how it negatively affects quests. Tell me how the rating is actually figured.
Someone said that it may be bugged. But we can't know for sure unless we know how it is supposed to work or how it is calculated.
You stated a few pages back that I either don't know how the system works or I don't care. So I am here asking you how does it work. Not how it seems to negatively affect ratings. How does it actually work? How is it calculated? Please answer these questions.
Sweet Water and Light Laughter Till Next We Meet.
Narayan
Comments
Before today, Out of 67 plays, i only have 29 ratings, and less written reviews, but one thing is consistent, before today my ratings were
5 star = 13
4 star = 10
3 star = 1
2 star = 0
1 star = 1
(before you think I am trying brag...my quest has been live since the first day of open beta...that is a lot of months)
Then today I log in, see two more 5 star ratings, and then a 1-star rating with the feedback "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST". This brings the grand total to 32 reviews.
Many people work hard on their quests, and given how hard it is to get a non-farming quest played and rated, one or two reviews really hurt. My quest has been released since day one of open beta, as I worked on it during closed beta, and all this time, I have 32 ratings and 70 plays. 99% of the feedback has been positive. But for what? As shown below, one guy that ruin all that.
Here is the main issue for those of us without a ton of ratings to keep the low trolls in check. Unless you have hundreds of ratings to keep the average high, then the follow will occur to you.
Four days ago I had an average rating of 4.2 with 29 ratings (shown above)
Yesterday I got TWO 5 star ratings, and a single 1 star rating.
Despite those two 5 stars, that single troll dropped my hard worked from 4.2 average to a 4.1, showing that one troll/jerk/child can do that much damage even after two previous high ratings. Despite having 25 of my ratings now at 4 or above, and only 3 below four, my rating is struggling to keep at 4....Cryptics math makes no sense, and it gives trolls too much power. What would have happened if I get another 1 star, and no other ratings to balance it out?
I reported the guy as a UGC quest troll, of which they do exist in droves. I hope Cryptic will look into it, see that he does this to a lot of UGC and do something about him, but I know that 1-star is a stain that will never go away. And it is the complete ease at which another troll can go it and do the same thing, and without the to 5 stars to help counter, drop the average rating even lower.
The community needs to start reporting all of these. I am not talking reporting anyone with a 1-star, providing they give FEEDBACK as why it is rated so low. But there are MANY MANY MANY reasons you should report someone as a troll:
1. They don't read the quest information, and then rate low and ***** about something you clearly labeled in the quest description. Like you clearly say "this is a non-combat quest" in the description, and they rate 1 star saying "NO COMBAT, SUX." Authors should not be punished because players refuse to read the most basic part of the quest, the description.
2. They use the end loot as a reason for rating low, especially if like my quest, where I put a BRIGHT YELLOW disclaimer on the last dialogue screen that clearly states that I have NO SAY in what the box at the end drops. It says all of the loot in the chest is generated automatically by the game. This was the last dialogue prompt the player sees just before the box appears and the quest ends. And I get "BOX EMPTY STUPID QUEST"?
3. If you are getting generally 4-5 star ratings or even 2-3's with feedback saying things that make sense (and show that the players actually played and understood the quest but just did not like cetain parts) and then some guy rates 1 star and just says "quest sucks". To me that is not a valid opinion, that is some guy being a jerk and a troll. At least say WHY you think it sucks. My lowest rating aside from the two 1 stars(one which has no feedback) is that 3-star, and it clearly spells out why he thought I deserved a rating lower then my average. I may not agree with him(a few of his complaints were intended mechanics to counter known bugs in the foundry that would otherwise make the quest break) but at least he showed the intent to provide feedback. I will send him in game email with my own feedback explaining why I did certain things so he knows for other people who might do the same.
Often, many of these people that will do this to you will either have something against you (you won a loot roll in a random dungeon, killed them a lot in a battleground), they are a fellow author trying to lower averages of quests just above them using alt accounts, or they just feel like being a jerk that day...the internet it full of people like that.
Cryptic already showed they do not care at all about the Foundry from top to bottom. They like to pretend they do, but until they start to actually fix the major bugs that have been in since closed beta, get a actual working catalog browers with good search features, and do something to help promote the authors who work hard on a quest vs plopping out some 20 to create farm quest and dupping it everytime it gets deleted or drops off the new list then I will not trust Cryptic to fix this.
However, they can not as easily turn a blind eye to hundreds or thousands of GM tickets about troll reviewers. Even if Cryptic things these trolls are within their rights, the mass number of tickets will force them to do something to curb the mass numbers of tickets flooding their system.
Now I am not a supporter of the mentality we should artificially pump up peoples quests, as I feel we need to rate quests accuratly not just for the community, but for the author as well. If people hate my quest, and keep giving it 4-5 stars just because it is not a farm quest, I will never know and think it is a great quest. I think there are places you need to give out 2-3 stars, and even 1 stars (bugged, broken, harrassment, exploit, or an obvious farm job where a guy put down 10 Orgres in a grass field and hit publish).
That is my rant. Continue on.
I agree with you about how low ratings have a greater impact than good ratings. My latest quest had over a hundred and forty ratings, the vast majority of which were 4 to 5 stars. Between every three or four five star ratings, I'd get a two or three star. At first I thought, no big deal, I'm getting mostly good ratings, my adjusted rating should climb slowly. Despite consistently getting far more good ratings than bad, and my average rating staying exactly the same, my adjusted rating never got any higher. Every time I got enough five star ratings to make it gain 0.01 adjusted rating points, which ranged from five to two as my number of plays got higher, I'd get a three star review, and lose that fraction of a point, or even more. Couple this with the fact exploiters have no problem climbing the list, and many of us are forced to conclude the rating system is totally broken, and/or just being abused.
I think your last sentence says a lot of how some think.
You need to find out how the "exploiters" are climbing the lists and your quests are not. Either there are a lot of players who love those maps, the rating system is broken, or the system is being abused. If you feel it is the last... You must remember the there are several ways to "abuse" the rating system. Is rating an "exploitation" map 5* abusing the system? Is rating an "average" quest 5* abusing the system?
Just a thought.
Narayan
I'd say rating an exploitation map five stars is definitely abusing the system. An average quest? I don't think so, that's a personal decision to help a fellow author. As for there being a lot of players that like exploit maps, my quests have had far more five star ratings than those maps even have plays. Yet mine can't compete with them because of a small number of average ratings. I'm not even talking about 1 star troll ratings, I had like 2 of those out of 145+ ratings. Just one three star rating can cause you to lose all the progress from multiple five star reviews in terms of adjusted rating points. A 1 star rating is even worse. When I got two to four times as many five star ratings alone as an exploit map has ratings total, and that exploit map is sitting twenty spots higher than mine on the list because less than a dozen people thought my quest was mediocre, I say the rating system is broken.
Unfortunately you are assuming these imbeciles have the capability to read the written word.
I agree with every point of your "rant."
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
There is a different between being stupid. And doing somthing that negatively affects another players hard work could be reportable. Lowering UGC's average rating on purpose because you have an issue with the author, or just want to do it because you get a rise out of that kind of stuff is griefing, and is reportable. Doing in because you just plain do not care to read the quest description, or the disclaimers about loot most authors put in their quest may not be griefing as your not doing it with the explicit intent to artificially lower someones average, but it still has a huge negative affect on the Foundry as a whole and should not be tolerated.
Taking it on the chin would be getting a really harsh negative review. I can handle that, I can handle if someone wants to tell me every flaw in my quest.
But there is no reason you should have to put up with stupid in ANY game if it affects you more then just being able to ignore said stupid player. Some player is being stupid in a random dungeon? Kick him. Being stupid in chat? put him on ignore, being stupid with a peice of work that you put 100 hours into...ya You can't ignore those "stupid" people that manage to drag your content through the dirt just because they failed to read or comprehend what they were getting into.
Not to mention I think it is a lot less with stupid, as it is with people that just don't care.
Also I agree with Wushin, which is not always.
It is less that those exploit, or even legit farming maps are more popular, it is that they have a core audience of players who just rate them all 5 stars. They do not get low ratings because the players that WOULD rate them lower, stay away from them. I for one will not even go into a farming or exploit map, even to down rate it, because then I am no better then the rest, going into a quest with the sole intent to lower it's ratings. Most genuine authors are the same.
However, there is nothing stopping the kind of players who do not care about anyone but them selves and their own advancment from coming into our maps, seeing it is not a farm easy mode exploit map and clicking one star.
So as wushin said, they only "seem" more popular due to the fact they have fewer reviews total, but happen to all be 5 stars (with feedback like "awesome" "best quest ever" "epix man". Where as a story with more substance will have far more variable feedback.
I get what you are saying. But the problem is... How do we know if the system is broken until we know how it is supposed to work?
Just my opinion here... But 5* rating a quest just to help it get a better score is also abusing the system. But I guess honesty in an MMO rating system is asking too much.
My rating system is like this... A quest has to be perfect or nearly perfect (IMHO) to get a 5* rating. (And I also have to enjoy it a lot) Some quests may be nearly perfect in design, but I am not enjoying it... And if I feel it needs a lot of work (again IMHO) I will 3* it. If it is really bad I will not rate it and PM or ingame mail the author what I feel is wrong. Si I never 2* or 1* anything.
Narayan
I agree, I mentioned before that the reason most of the legitimate Foundry quests can't compete with the exploits is because everyone is so overly critical of them, and the people who play exploit quests indeed give them five star ratings with a sort of religious zeal. My problem with the system is that it does not care if I have 100 five star ratings, it puts exploit maps with only around thirty plays near the list over mine, just because I had a handful of mediocre reviews.
Some people have a huge problem with my idea of giving other Foundry authors five star ratings. Maybe it is dishonest, but the results would be beneficial to the community, so you could think of it as a white lie. Also, since the rating system is SUPPOSED to be relative to other quests, and we're being plagued by exploit maps that sometimes even make the Best list, I think giving another author anything less than five stars in this time of crisis is just as bad as rating one of those exploit maps five stars, because you're STILL helping the exploit maps stay on top, even if you hand out four star ratings, that's not good enough because you're basically telling that author those exploits are better than their quest and most likely lowering their adjusted rating. The Foundry community can be a team like the exploiters and beat them, or they can continue to give each other three star ratings with reviews like, "OMG THIS QUEST IS EPIC!"
I realize my ideas are radical, but don't worry. I won't be going around five-starring your quests, and my own quests are withdrawn so nobody can five-star them anymore. The reason I propose this solution is to help the Foundry community save itself. When it no longer becomes necessary for us to have ONLY five star ratings to have our quests visible to our audience, I'll republish my quests, and maybe start working on the next installment of my campaign. It really is BS that even with all my good ratings, my quests got buried under exploits. Maybe my quests aren't the greatest, but if my audience as a whole REALLY thinks exploit maps are better, it's not an audience worth catering to. Maybe they don't really feel that way, but it doesn't change the adjusted ratings.
And by overly critical you mean honest... Right?
Maybe it is dishonest? IMHO if you give a quest a rating you do not really believe it deserves, that is dishonest.
What you are saying in this paragraph is... If you give an honest opinion of the quest you just did, you are doing a disservice to the author and the community. And no, if you 4* a quest, you are not telling exploit authors their quest is better.
I do not want anyone to 5* my quest if they do not feel it actually deserves one. You are not actually helping the Foundry community. You are helping the rather small Foundry Forum community. Unless you are actually talking about going online and playing every foundry quest that you can that is not an exploit and 5*ing them also.
You are making judgements here that are unfounded. You seem to be saying that if someone plays your quest and does not 5* it they think that the exploit quests are better.
Narayan
You don't seem to clearly understand how the adjusted rating system works. Either that, or you just don't care about anyone else's adjusted rating. The Foundry community cannot afford to keep giving honest ratings. The negative impact of even a three star review right now can knock someone below almost every exploit on the list. Honesty is not always a good thing. If you go to the Special Olympics, are you going to call every competitor a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because you're honest? How honest would you be with your boss at work? How about your mother in-law, gonna tell her every intimate detail of yours and her daughter's sex life? The whole point of having a Foundry community is so that we can support each other. Authors who do not give a **** about any author but themselves need not apply. No one will want to support you after you've helped tear them down anyway. I can tell you that from experience, as someone who has given plenty of honest ratings, and now deeply regrets some of them.
As I said before, I'm no longer participating in the Foundry aside from making suggestions on the forum. I'm not making quests, rating them, or receiving ratings. Hate my idea? Fine. Go ahead and three star some authors. Hope it makes you feel better. If every Foundry author would just listen though, and do as I say, exploits would no longer be a problem, and there would still be plenty of honest players to sort out the list accordingly.
If everyone gave 5 stars to every non-exploit quest, what would sort the good quests from the bad? The problem arises when I decide I want to play a certain type of foundry mission, but I can't choose one because every legit mission has 5 stars from now on. What if I'm not into heavy combat or humor? Would these "phenomenal" quests labeled as such change my perspective, or is it just more abuse from the broken system?
Cryptic should take responsibility for caring for their Foundry upon themselves. That's my bottom line.
I agree, Cryptic should. Unfortunately, they haven't, which is why we're here trying to think of ways to care for it ourselves. As I said in the post you quoted, there would be plenty of honest players to sort out the list.
I have another idea, a way that YOU and others like you can help the Foundry community, without tarnishing your much valued sense of honesty. Just honestly rate all the exploit maps. If you and one or two other authors took the time to one star all the exploits, we wouldn't be seeing them anymore, because they do NOT have enough ratings to absorb the impact of a few one stars. I'm actually surprised this hasn't already been done.
Edit: Scratch that part about not having enough ratings. I just checked, and it seems that it is now too late for us to simply down-vote our way out of this mess, because the exploits have more plays than they used to.
YOU have an idea? It's Zovya's number one tip in the opening post.
It doesn't need to be done in isolation either, honest reviews can still be given. If exploit maps rise above genuine quests then all the better. With nowhere to hide they will hopefully be removed all the sooner now the system seems to be working.
As for the other off-topic discussion I have a couple of comments:
1) The quality of works coming out of the Foundry is just getting better and better. All things being relative, that means that something worthy of a 4 or 5 rating back in May, may only be considered a 2 or 3 today.
2) No matter how stupid someone might be, IF THEY ENJOYED YOUR QUEST, they aren't going to rate it all the way down to 1* just because the chest didn't give them a reward.
Actually, I seem to remember Zovya saying to refrain from giving them ratings, as they might possibly cancel out the reports. Though the post may have been edited since then. As for point number two, there are apparently people out there stupider than what you believe to be possible. This is evidenced by the fact that authors constantly get reviews like, "Great quest, but no loot. - 1 star" Maybe those are just trolls, but they're still stupid.
No, Karitr, it does not balance out. If it all balanced out, this thread would not need to exist. Us Foundry authors are all in the same trench, fighting the same enemy, and some of us want to take shots at each other instead of the enemy, while everyone who hasn't been shot at yet wants to just pretend everything is okay. You're a player, I can't expect you to understand the thoughts and feelings of many Foundry authors who had their work pushed off the list by these exploits, got trolled anonymously, or got their quest taken down prematurely for reasons still unknown two weeks after publishing. You don't have any personal investment in a quest, so you have no idea what it's like to work so hard for weeks to earn a few fractions of a point, only to have them taken away in the blink of an eye by someone because someone didn't get good enough loot. It's beyond your understanding. If you truly want to understand, you'll have to make a quest, publish it, and try to get plays yourself.
My personal integrity is not for sale, for money or ideological reasons.
I will always give an honest review/rating.
If I were to do any other I would be no better than the people who lower themselves and sell their integrity for quick XP in an exploit map.
Once we start trying to use dishonesty as a weapon against the dishonest portion of the player base they have won - they dragged us down to their level.
I for one won't be a part of that fall from grace.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
I don't care about the means, just the end result. The end result of reporting has proven not to be good enough, since these maps are so simple they can be replicated in a day, and they regain any lost footing on the lists just as quickly. There are already several exploits on the list with an adjusted rating of over 4.0, which I never got even on Campaigns & Kobolds, despite over 400 mostly positive ratings. If you have a better idea to combat these exploiters, I'd like to hear it.
So say all extremists.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
The balance comment I made and you quoted had nothing to do with exploit quests.
Since this thread was created, it would seem that reporting the exploit maps IS working, they are being taken down. I don't expect you to feel positive about that, but even if you can't be positive can you at least contribute to the topic so the thread isn't locked or removed.
Just carry on reporting any new quests that appear. Sominator has already stated that repeat offenders will have their Foundry privileges removed completely.
Since hercooles130uscg's post was spliced into this thread, Zeb has changed the title of the thread to reflect the change in the topic of discussion. You'll notice it is now titled, "Tips to Combat Exploit Maps & UGC Listing Feedback and Suggestions", meaning all my feedback and suggestions regarding the UGC Listing is on-topic. Please be constructive, instead of just refuting every post with off-topic comments about balance, or telling people to just take it on the chin or to not bother publishing..
. . . . . I'm only responding this to try and stop this argument and be clear in what this thread is for. If you have any issues with this, contact me by PM or send a complaint to Sominator.
. . . . . I do not encourage anyone to play through suspected missions just to intently single out a mission and accuse it of being an exploit by rating it one star, with or without a review. That is a wrong, akin to witch hunt... If one feels a UGC is exploitative, leave it and report it through the Behavior option in a GM Ticket, as outlined in the OP of this thread.
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Well I understand that you would like to fan the flames of hercooles rage at being 1-starred, but it isn't at all constructive.
One stars are going to happen and yes an author should take it on the chin or not publish - for the sake of their mental and emotional well-being. An isolated 1* review is neither trolling or reportable - Cryptic allowed players 5 levels of rating and we are free to use all of them.
I'd have no issue with the ratings themselves being removed, but then I read and like to get a feel for what other players - who enjoy the same things I do - think about quests. However, no ratings may hurt the type of quests that are not based on story and/or are designed as quick dailies. FACT: Short, daily quests receive a lower percentage of reviews to plays than longer, more involved quests.
Hopefully the new tag system will allow more quests to show up on the catalogue, but till then, if you really wanted to support your fellow author, you could do it in a positive way instead of encouraging feelings of persecution and isolation.
And by the way, till you put your quests back up, you are no more a Foundry author than I am
OK. Please explain to me how the adjusted rating works. And I am not talking about I got a 3* rating and it took away all of the previous 5* ratings. How "exactly" does it work?
The truth be told... I do not care about my own adjusted rating. I do not make foundry quests for ratings/plays/adoration. I make them because I enjoy making them.
So it is sometimes a good thing to steal/cheat your way to success?
No. Because I am not being ask to pass judgement on their mental ability.
When asked a question by my boss I have always been truthful.
If my mother in law is dumb enough to ask me about my sex life with her daughter... Dang right I will.
Really? If every author would just listen to you, everything would be just dandy?
I am a firm believer that no matter what you do, exploits will always be around. Hopefully not as bad as it seems they are now. It is just like other problems... PEDs in sports, cheating on tests... They will always be around.
Edit to ask a question:
Since you brought up the Special Olympics and bosses etc...
If you were a teacher (K-12) and you suspected some of your students were cheating, you just could not prove it. Would you grade the other students tests with all "A"s to help them rise above the cheaters?
Narayan
To be honest... I have never played an exploit map. But if I ever find myself in one, I will just quit it and report it. No play. No rating.
Narayan
It works pretty much the way Koboldbard said. I've posted a couple of examples in the past in the thread linked below.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?409811-The-Adjusted-Rating-Sucks-when-it-comes-to-Campaigns
After that thread a lot of Foundry authors including Zeb showed support in good ratings, but a minority of low ratings destroyed all that progress, as seen in the post quoted below, which I made in the same thread later on.
Then there's this post from the thread we're in now.
And many other posts like these from other authors I'm sure.
Your posts, tho informative... Do not explain how the adjusted rating works. Just how it negatively affects quests. Tell me how the rating is actually figured.
Someone said that it may be bugged. But we can't know for sure unless we know how it is supposed to work or how it is calculated.
You stated a few pages back that I either don't know how the system works or I don't care. So I am here asking you how does it work. Not how it seems to negatively affect ratings. How does it actually work? How is it calculated? Please answer these questions.
Narayan