The game also permits players to con others out of trades... there's stuff that's intended, and stuff that isn't. Again, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should or that it's right...
For all intents and purposes, exploiting = cheating, in this context.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No it is not, , it is the fact that people come on here calling other players 'cheats', the option is in the game to do these campfire runs etc, without using any scripts or bugging anything out by doing somthing in the game, , all players are doing is runnning from one fire to another, no cheats involved, just pressing a forward movement button,
It is the games fault this can be done NOT the players. but again if PWE realy cared about it, it would have been fixed months ago, so obviously they dont
Running to the campfires over and over is cheating. That is not how the game is designed to be played.
Obviously they do care about it because they have and are going to fix that and other exploits. There will come a time where you will have to fight through the trash and kill the boss without glitches.. zone chat will be hilarious to read when 90% of the people won't know what to do.
For all intents and purposes, exploiting = cheating, in this context.
If it was a Exploit CN would have been closed months ago and it would have been fixed and everybody doing it would have been banned as it would of broken the ToS, but it as not been fixed , so PWE dont care and it is obviously NOT a exploit, as you call it..
Agree campfires in CN are broke, but until PWE actualy fix them you can not call everybody 'cheats' 'for doing fire runs
Hang on, a few minutes ago you claimed they were designed that way. Is broke part of design also? I'm beginning to see where I went wrong all these years.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
If it was a Exploit CN would have been closed months ago and it would have been fixed and everybody doing it would have been banned as it would of broken the ToS, but it as not been fixed , so PWE dont care and it is obviously NOT a exploit, as you call it..
Perhaps you are unaware of the process and time involved in investigating exploits and unintended shortcuts, then addressing them. As the devs are under a timetable, and can only devote a certain amount of time to fixing certain things, those things must be prioritized and addressed in kind.
Basically, they will get around to fixing these bugs/holes/exploits, but it takes time.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Yes it is not acceptable, and whos fault is it this can be done ???? certainly not the players, i am pretty sure it is down to the bad design of the dungeons in the first place. You should not even be able to kite th eboss out of his room, but thats not a player fault , its the DESIGN. or rarther lack of ..........
Remember when you previously failed to undestand what design and implemenation both mean? You really should stop posting and learn the difference.
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If it was a Exploit CN would have been closed months ago and it would have been fixed and everybody doing it would have been banned as it would of broken the ToS, but it as not been fixed , so PWE dont care and it is obviously NOT a exploit, as you call it..
They have fixed a ton of problems with CN. You used to be able to walk right through a wall to get to the last boss. How long have you been playing for? They are fixing this game all the time.
The biggest problems with CN outside of the campfire running lie with the 1st and 2nd bosses. It is possible to still have the spider boss suicide and the 2nd boss people can climb a statue and fight without have to face adds or the beholder's eye beams.
Running to the campfires over and over is cheating. That is not how the game is designed to be played.
.
If it was not designed to to be done, you would not be able to do it. end of, and again why as it never been fixed ??? people were doing it in open beta , way before 'live' it was reported about 100's and 100's of times in tickets and on here, but nothing as ever been done or said, the fact that you can do it is the Devs fault, not the players, thats was my point.
0
brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If it was a Exploit CN would have been closed months ago and it would have been fixed and everybody doing it would have been banned as it would of broken the ToS, but it as not been fixed , so PWE dont care and it is obviously NOT a exploit, as you call it..
No, not really. I've never seen a dungeon closed due to exploits, and it takes a while to fix them generally. In these cases it will take coding in false walls and so on to prevent movement and reprogramming campfire behavior in those dungeons. It's being worked on, but to say that because the dungeon hasn't been closed in the meantime means it isn't an exploit is a non sequitur.
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If it was not designed to to be done, you would not be able to do it. end of, and again why as it never been fixed ??? people were doing it in open beta , way before 'live' it was reported about 100's and 100's of times in tickets and on here, but nothing as ever been done or said, the fact that you can do it is the Devs fault, not the players, thats was my point.
It has to do with the game mechanics. The game was not designed to run to campfires bowdidly, the game was designed to give you checkpoints so if you wipe past them, you have a reset point. The game has been exploited and they are looking to fix this issue. If you notice, they have fixed several campfires spawn points along with zoning back in to reset a DD in several instances.
There is nothing acceptable about cheating in this game.
If it was not designed to to be done, you would not be able to do it. end of, and again why as it never been fixed ??? people were doing it in open beta , way before 'live' it was reported about 100's and 100's of times in tickets and on here, but nothing as ever been done or said, the fact that you can do it is the Devs fault, not the players, thats was my point.
The devs are slow to fix stuff... we get it. It is the players' choice to EXPLOIT that aspect of the game to get an advantage. No one is forcing the players to use this broken mechanic. You can absolutely blame the players that abuse this feature as it is clearly not the intended behavior.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
If it was a Exploit CN would have been closed months ago and it would have been fixed and everybody doing it would have been banned as it would of broken the ToS, but it as not been fixed , so PWE dont care and it is obviously NOT a exploit, as you call it..
So why is it that some of these exploits have already been fixed? If they weren't intended they'd have been fixed months before, not left until recently. PWE/Cryptic can only enfore what they're aware of, if you're so sure of yourself I'm sure you'll be happy to video yourself doing it and send it to them.
What did I say? Learn what design means or stop posting. End of.
Precisely.
I remember when people on WoW's PvP servers were jumping on top of buildings in Darkshire and a few other towns, which was doable by everyone but hard to do -- required some specific jumps -- and exploitative. Blizzard didn't change it immediately, but they did change it eventually by placing invisible walls. Clearly what people were doing was not "intended by the design" --- it was an *oversight* in the design that was being taken advantage of by some players -- which is what an exploit is. Eventually they get fixed. Not overnight. And in the meantime, it's an exploit.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I remember when people on WoW's PvP servers were jumping on top of buildings in Darkshire and a few other towns, which was doable by everyone but hard to do -- required some specific jumps -- and exploitative. Blizzard didn't change it immediately, but they did change it eventually by placing invisible walls. Clearly what people were doing was not "intended by the design" --- it was an *oversight* in the design that was being taken advantage of by some players -- which is what an exploit is. Eventually they get fixed. Not overnight. And in the meantime, it's an exploit.
I remember when people used to kite bosses back to Stormwind and everybody in the AH would get wiped out.
If there is a timed event and skipping to the end-goal is possible then people will want to skip to the end goal as quickly as possible in order to achieve that goal as many times as is allowed in the time limit because the only value in the event is the end goal.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited August 2013
One of the best suggestions I have read was to make the adds at the end directly related to the number of enemies left in the dungeon. Thus, if you clear the dungeon, significantly fewer adds await you at the end.
I do agree, though, that the so-called "trash mobs" should be reexamined, as well as the mechanic of the DD event. All a timer does is encourage rushing, and that should not be the case. Make it X number of runs (per character) per day instead...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I have been running some t2 DD events, like spider and Kund and it seems everyone is about running to a campfire, die and then move forward or hop skip and jump around everything, fight a boss in a very subversive way, then hop skip and jump some more.
I ask why not fight through and play the content? people say that the content is currently impossible for a group to defeat. i assume that is based on gear score and eventually you get to a point where people play the content rather than 'hop skip jump' the content. I know people will Zerg instances, but usually there are groups doing both approaches - i play the content to 'play' the content, not grind the most gear i can in an hour window.
I have to say that now that i have 5 toons at 60, there is not a lot to do for end game. I expected once i got geared up to run the content this would change, but if the HSJ method is what i can expect from here on out, I am bumming i have already invested the time and money that i have in this game.
Now factor in all the dps nerfs of the new patch and it seems we go from unplayable to impossible. Can i expect to eventually even out where people will play the content or is this the way it is from here on out? I am not opposed to grinding, but it seems like we are tricking the content more than playing it. if this is not how it was intended, which does not seem likely, once these approaches are fixed, the game will be dead because you will not be able to complete anything.
Am i missing something?
The T2 Dungeons are listed as having an Average play time ogf about 45 minutes. If you grind through all the Trash in a dungeon even with a well geared team it takes an hour or more to complete. That is with 0 deaths and no hold ups. So Yeah even the super geared players still hop skip and jump. Some bosses can be impossible to beat even with 12-13k groups Like Temple of Spider and Dread Vaults if you dont have a specific group setup that knows what they are doing. These groups also tend to exclude GWF players.
One of the best suggestions I have read was to make the adds at the end directly related to the number of enemies left in the dungeon. Thus, if you clear the dungeon, significantly fewer adds await you at the end.
I do agree, though, that the so-called "trash mobs" should be reexamined, as well as the mechanic of the DD event. All a timer does is encourage rushing, and that should not be the case. Make it X number of runs (per character) per day instead...
I like this idea but then again yo urealize the normal amount of boss adds you get in game is already the most possible enemies the instance can support at any given time. So this can't be used to make the game harder. If anything it will just make the game easier.
You just need to find a solid group of players/guild that doesn't cheat or use exploits. This stuff is going to be fixed, the campfire running, the boss suicides, etc. The players (weak players) who aren't able to do the content the real way will die out.
Have yet to see a group who doesnt exploit, after thousand or more dd runs.
Everytime they fix something they break something as well, so expect a whole new round of exploits.
No the content is not hard, its boring (the countless mobs). If trash mobs had a chance to drop something of value, problem would be solved.
Skipping mobs are part of the game, why... take example spell..
My first time with Spell is on PUG and coincidentally the other 4 of my teamates are also first timer (one each class and all are decently geared), we have spent more than 3hrs. cleaning the dungeon (clean means, no adds of whatsoever is left standing) and after we reach the final boss camp fire we ponder why it took us that much time to reach that point and to think we haven't even starting doing the boss when it is clearly says in the Menu that Spell Dungeon can be finish in 45 minutes.
Now going back again to thesame dungeon with experience this time, it took us 25mins. to reach thesame spot(last camp fire), now tell me, should i waste another 2 hrs. and 35mins. of my life cleaning a dungeon that is design to be finish in 45mins.
There is no exploit in this game, the dungeons are all design to be finish in specific time. LOL.
Skipping mobs are part of the game, why... take example spell..
My first time with Spell is on PUG and coincidentally the other 4 of my teamates are also first timer (one each class and all are decently geared), we have spent more than 3hrs. cleaning the dungeon (clean means, no adds of whatsoever is left standing) and after we reach the final boss camp fire we ponder why it took us that much time to reach that point and to think we haven't even starting doing the boss when it is clearly says in the Menu that Spell Dungeon can be finish in 45 minutes.
Now going back again to thesame dungeon with experience this time, it took us 25mins. to reach thesame spot(last camp fire), now tell me, should i waste another 2 hrs. and 35mins. of my life cleaning a dungeon that is design to be finish in 45mins.
There is no exploit in this game, the dungeons are all design to be finish in specific time. LOL.
There is a difference between skillfully skirting around enemies and avoiding fights you don't need to start versus suiciding to the next campfire or using holes in geometry/bad clipping mechanics to skip portions of the dungeon. Similarly, there are differences between using knock powers to quickly dispatch lesser enemies vs getting enemies with bad AI to commit suicide.
It's pretty obvious that you don't need to completely clear a dungeon of each and every enemy to finish, but you should have to actually navigate from point A to point B, instead of relying on flawed respawn mechanics, holes in the geometry, or bad clipping/climbing mechanics to avoid having to do so.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I have to say that now that i have 5 toons at 60, there is not a lot to do for end game. I expected once i got geared up to run the content this would change, but if the HSJ method is what i can expect from here on out, I am bumming i have already invested the time and money that i have in this game.
Your not the only one that feels this, alot of ex-players that i ran with felt that the endgame was Meh, based on the hardness/mechanics involved (spam adds, the cost of enchanment fusing, crafting being useless). However they thoroughly enjoyed the leveling process and thought the game was awesome till they hit 60.
The ability to unlock a spawn point (campfire) by running to it is poor design. Its used a lot, but its still bad.
Instead they could have had a moderate strength enemy guard each one. (Not a full boss, but something troublesome.) And have the campfire only unlock after its defeated. People would be less likely to zerg to a campfire trailing dozens of adds if they actually had to kill something before reviving there.
To be honest though, the outright exploits bother me a lot more than campfire zerging. I don't run a lot of dungeons as it is. And being asked to help 'glitch' in the ones I did go through makes me not want to run anymore.
The ability to unlock a spawn point (campfire) by running to it is poor design. Its used a lot, but its still bad.
If it was designed that way it wouldn't be poor it would be well designed, because people can do it. However, as it wasn't designed that way it's poor implementation, not design.
Comments
It's almost like you're describing exploiting
Just saying
For all intents and purposes, exploiting = cheating, in this context.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Running to the campfires over and over is cheating. That is not how the game is designed to be played.
Obviously they do care about it because they have and are going to fix that and other exploits. There will come a time where you will have to fight through the trash and kill the boss without glitches.. zone chat will be hilarious to read when 90% of the people won't know what to do.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
If it was a Exploit CN would have been closed months ago and it would have been fixed and everybody doing it would have been banned as it would of broken the ToS, but it as not been fixed , so PWE dont care and it is obviously NOT a exploit, as you call it..
Perhaps you are unaware of the process and time involved in investigating exploits and unintended shortcuts, then addressing them. As the devs are under a timetable, and can only devote a certain amount of time to fixing certain things, those things must be prioritized and addressed in kind.
Basically, they will get around to fixing these bugs/holes/exploits, but it takes time.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Remember when you previously failed to undestand what design and implemenation both mean? You really should stop posting and learn the difference.
They have fixed a ton of problems with CN. You used to be able to walk right through a wall to get to the last boss. How long have you been playing for? They are fixing this game all the time.
The biggest problems with CN outside of the campfire running lie with the 1st and 2nd bosses. It is possible to still have the spider boss suicide and the 2nd boss people can climb a statue and fight without have to face adds or the beholder's eye beams.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
If it was not designed to to be done, you would not be able to do it. end of, and again why as it never been fixed ??? people were doing it in open beta , way before 'live' it was reported about 100's and 100's of times in tickets and on here, but nothing as ever been done or said, the fact that you can do it is the Devs fault, not the players, thats was my point.
No, not really. I've never seen a dungeon closed due to exploits, and it takes a while to fix them generally. In these cases it will take coding in false walls and so on to prevent movement and reprogramming campfire behavior in those dungeons. It's being worked on, but to say that because the dungeon hasn't been closed in the meantime means it isn't an exploit is a non sequitur.
It has to do with the game mechanics. The game was not designed to run to campfires bowdidly, the game was designed to give you checkpoints so if you wipe past them, you have a reset point. The game has been exploited and they are looking to fix this issue. If you notice, they have fixed several campfires spawn points along with zoning back in to reset a DD in several instances.
There is nothing acceptable about cheating in this game.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
The devs are slow to fix stuff... we get it. It is the players' choice to EXPLOIT that aspect of the game to get an advantage. No one is forcing the players to use this broken mechanic. You can absolutely blame the players that abuse this feature as it is clearly not the intended behavior.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
So why is it that some of these exploits have already been fixed? If they weren't intended they'd have been fixed months before, not left until recently. PWE/Cryptic can only enfore what they're aware of, if you're so sure of yourself I'm sure you'll be happy to video yourself doing it and send it to them.
What did I say? Learn what design means or stop posting. End of.
Precisely.
I remember when people on WoW's PvP servers were jumping on top of buildings in Darkshire and a few other towns, which was doable by everyone but hard to do -- required some specific jumps -- and exploitative. Blizzard didn't change it immediately, but they did change it eventually by placing invisible walls. Clearly what people were doing was not "intended by the design" --- it was an *oversight* in the design that was being taken advantage of by some players -- which is what an exploit is. Eventually they get fixed. Not overnight. And in the meantime, it's an exploit.
I remember when people used to kite bosses back to Stormwind and everybody in the AH would get wiped out.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
If there is a timed event and skipping to the end-goal is possible then people will want to skip to the end goal as quickly as possible in order to achieve that goal as many times as is allowed in the time limit because the only value in the event is the end goal.
I do agree, though, that the so-called "trash mobs" should be reexamined, as well as the mechanic of the DD event. All a timer does is encourage rushing, and that should not be the case. Make it X number of runs (per character) per day instead...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
The T2 Dungeons are listed as having an Average play time ogf about 45 minutes. If you grind through all the Trash in a dungeon even with a well geared team it takes an hour or more to complete. That is with 0 deaths and no hold ups. So Yeah even the super geared players still hop skip and jump. Some bosses can be impossible to beat even with 12-13k groups Like Temple of Spider and Dread Vaults if you dont have a specific group setup that knows what they are doing. These groups also tend to exclude GWF players.
I like this idea but then again yo urealize the normal amount of boss adds you get in game is already the most possible enemies the instance can support at any given time. So this can't be used to make the game harder. If anything it will just make the game easier.
Have yet to see a group who doesnt exploit, after thousand or more dd runs.
Everytime they fix something they break something as well, so expect a whole new round of exploits.
No the content is not hard, its boring (the countless mobs). If trash mobs had a chance to drop something of value, problem would be solved.
Skipping mobs are part of the game, why... take example spell..
My first time with Spell is on PUG and coincidentally the other 4 of my teamates are also first timer (one each class and all are decently geared), we have spent more than 3hrs. cleaning the dungeon (clean means, no adds of whatsoever is left standing) and after we reach the final boss camp fire we ponder why it took us that much time to reach that point and to think we haven't even starting doing the boss when it is clearly says in the Menu that Spell Dungeon can be finish in 45 minutes.
Now going back again to thesame dungeon with experience this time, it took us 25mins. to reach thesame spot(last camp fire), now tell me, should i waste another 2 hrs. and 35mins. of my life cleaning a dungeon that is design to be finish in 45mins.
There is no exploit in this game, the dungeons are all design to be finish in specific time. LOL.
I see what you are saying, but lets be honest. There are exploits. Boss1/2 Karr. Boss 2 CN. All of FH & many more.
There is a difference between skillfully skirting around enemies and avoiding fights you don't need to start versus suiciding to the next campfire or using holes in geometry/bad clipping mechanics to skip portions of the dungeon. Similarly, there are differences between using knock powers to quickly dispatch lesser enemies vs getting enemies with bad AI to commit suicide.
It's pretty obvious that you don't need to completely clear a dungeon of each and every enemy to finish, but you should have to actually navigate from point A to point B, instead of relying on flawed respawn mechanics, holes in the geometry, or bad clipping/climbing mechanics to avoid having to do so.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Your not the only one that feels this, alot of ex-players that i ran with felt that the endgame was Meh, based on the hardness/mechanics involved (spam adds, the cost of enchanment fusing, crafting being useless). However they thoroughly enjoyed the leveling process and thought the game was awesome till they hit 60.
Instead they could have had a moderate strength enemy guard each one. (Not a full boss, but something troublesome.) And have the campfire only unlock after its defeated. People would be less likely to zerg to a campfire trailing dozens of adds if they actually had to kill something before reviving there.
To be honest though, the outright exploits bother me a lot more than campfire zerging. I don't run a lot of dungeons as it is. And being asked to help 'glitch' in the ones I did go through makes me not want to run anymore.
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!