T2 - hop skip and jump the expectation?

yyrkoonstyphoon

I have been running some t2 DD events, like spider and Kund and it seems everyone is about running to a campfire, die and then move forward or hop skip and jump around everything, fight a boss in a very subversive way, then hop skip and jump some more.

I ask why not fight through and play the content? people say that the content is currently impossible for a group to defeat. i assume that is based on gear score and eventually you get to a point where people play the content rather than 'hop skip jump' the content. I know people will Zerg instances, but usually there are groups doing both approaches - i play the content to 'play' the content, not grind the most gear i can in an hour window.

I have to say that now that i have 5 toons at 60, there is not a lot to do for end game. I expected once i got geared up to run the content this would change, but if the HSJ method is what i can expect from here on out, I am bumming i have already invested the time and money that i have in this game.

Now factor in all the dps nerfs of the new patch and it seems we go from unplayable to impossible. Can i expect to eventually even out where people will play the content or is this the way it is from here on out? I am not opposed to grinding, but it seems like we are tricking the content more than playing it. if this is not how it was intended, which does not seem likely, once these approaches are fixed, the game will be dead because you will not be able to complete anything.

Am i missing something?

cribstaxxx

Lol it has nothing to do with the content being difficult, it has everything to do with time. Would you rather get in 3-4 runs during DD or 1? Especially now with DD becoming worthless in a couple days unless you still need your T2. You might think it's great if you need your T2, but what about after you get it 3 days after the patch? Then DD will be worthless to you as well.

Trash drops nothing, trash profits you nothing, it is simply there to waste your time so that the boss loot takes longer to aquire. So by adapting to this and learning ways to skip it we get to the boss loot faster, which is the whole reason we ran the dungeon in the first place. Why is that so hard to understand?

Fast run = more loot. "But I want to look at the pretty dungeon" Then don't run it during DD and the average group probably won't rush as much.

stercogburn

The Delve mechanic is an atrocious idea anyway. They should just do away with it. It creates an unpleasant playing environment as well as discouraging people from playing the content at other times.

badpanda69

stercogburn wrote: »

The Delve mechanic is an atrocious idea anyway. They should just do away with it. It creates an unpleasant playing environment as well as discouraging people from playing the content at other times.

Agree with this 100% get rid of the DD.

yyrkoonstyphoon

I think rather than having this timed event, it would be nice to have a 'delve' token that you can use on a chest and you can acquire one a day from Rhix and you use it to open the chest. I have a very hard time catching these events because of the time they offer them, so mostly only on a weekend or if i want to HAMSTER my wife off by skipping dinner...

Cribstaxx - so i guess rather than getting new content, you would prefer a dungeon mechanic that you could click as many times as possible for loot? If you play the game for anything but the content, why even play? I think if you only run a dungeon for the loot, you are missing the point of the whole game... But thanks to know this is mostly a delve thing.

esteena

Queues
When returning to an instance, the player is now placed at his or her previous location.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?440261-Patch-Notes-NW-5-20130730a-2

chrono0812

stercogburn wrote: »

The Delve mechanic is an atrocious idea anyway. They should just do away with it. It creates an unpleasant playing environment as well as discouraging people from playing the content at other times.

Great Idea, I agree 100% with this logic. The way the game is developed at the moment it's a race to ink out as many DD runs as possible in a certain amount of time. There is absolutely no incentive to play through the dungeon content with the way Cryptic has developed it in this game.

diogene0

stercogburn wrote: »

The Delve mechanic is an atrocious idea anyway. They should just do away with it. It creates an unpleasant playing environment as well as discouraging people from playing the content at other times.

It's not the event, it's people. And the devs doing nothing to make players clearing dungeons. No point reporting exploits, they don't fix anything. I've tried, weeks ago, i've made detailed reports with nice videos, and nothing has been done so far. So, don't expect this to change anytime soon, and just expect them to publish new half finished content with no fixes and just keep moving forward. And if it creates a mass exodus because of the terrible dungeon atmospheres, because new players get bored quickly of these silly exploits and can't enjoy the game, well, it will be a good lesson and they might not do the same mistakes in their next games.

seisem2

yyrkoonstyphoon wrote: »

I have been running some t2 DD events, like spider and Kund and it seems everyone is about running to a campfire, die and then move forward or hop skip and jump around everything, fight a boss in a very subversive way, then hop skip and jump some more.

I ask why not fight through and play the content? people say that the content is currently impossible for a group to defeat. i assume that is based on gear score and eventually you get to a point where people play the content rather than 'hop skip jump' the content. I know people will Zerg instances, but usually there are groups doing both approaches - i play the content to 'play' the content, not grind the most gear i can in an hour window.

I have to say that now that i have 5 toons at 60, there is not a lot to do for end game. I expected once i got geared up to run the content this would change, but if the HSJ method is what i can expect from here on out, I am bumming i have already invested the time and money that i have in this game.

Now factor in all the dps nerfs of the new patch and it seems we go from unplayable to impossible. Can i expect to eventually even out where people will play the content or is this the way it is from here on out? I am not opposed to grinding, but it seems like we are tricking the content more than playing it. if this is not how it was intended, which does not seem likely, once these approaches are fixed, the game will be dead because you will not be able to complete anything.

Am i missing something?

You just need to find a solid group of players/guild that doesn't cheat or use exploits. This stuff is going to be fixed, the campfire running, the boss suicides, etc. The players (weak players) who aren't able to do the content the real way will die out.

seisem2

cribstaxxx wrote: »

Lol it has nothing to do with the content being difficult, it has everything to do with time. Would you rather get in 3-4 runs during DD or 1? Especially now with DD becoming worthless in a couple days unless you still need your T2. You might think it's great if you need your T2, but what about after you get it 3 days after the patch? Then DD will be worthless to you as well.

Trash drops nothing, trash profits you nothing, it is simply there to waste your time so that the boss loot takes longer to aquire. So by adapting to this and learning ways to skip it we get to the boss loot faster, which is the whole reason we ran the dungeon in the first place. Why is that so hard to understand?

Fast run = more loot. "But I want to look at the pretty dungeon" Then don't run it during DD and the average group probably won't rush as much.

People who glitch and cheat should be moved to their own shard. They can zone into the dungeon and the boss will autodie and drop all their loot. That is the level of play they are looking for.

fallenhawk

Skipping TRASH monster to get to boss at end is not an exploit/cheat/whatever some of you want to call it. How many times can it be say that not everyone wants to look at every single stone in a dungeon.It after all call a dungeon run not walk. :rolleyes:

xelliz

fallenhawk wrote: »

Skipping TRASH monster to get to boss at end is not an exploit/cheat/whatever some of you want to call it. How many times can it be say that not everyone wants to look at every single stone in a dungeon.It after all call a dungeon run not walk. :rolleyes:

Using holes in the map that were not intentionally put there by devs is an exploit. Tell yourself whatever you need to, but don't try to tell us its not.

seisem2

fallenhawk wrote: »

Skipping TRASH monster to get to boss at end is not an exploit/cheat/whatever some of you want to call it. How many times can it be say that not everyone wants to look at every single stone in a dungeon.It after all call a dungeon run not walk. :rolleyes:

The trash is intended to be fought... if it wasn't they wouldn't have it in the dungeon in the first place. There are many bugs and glitches that are being worked on to combat this.

bowdidly

From what i have heard in guild and around in game chat alot of people are suffering due to the class nerfs every few weeks.
Many players are not in full T2 sets and because classes keep getting so called 'balanced' every few weeks, which in reality means a class which is said to be OP is nerfed, which then drops them down the damage meters and leaves a space for the next in line to be 'top' dps, then more people complain and hence they get nerfed, all mainly due to PVP

But all these nerfs which are based on PVP performance, were they are only against other players as an adverse affect on PVE, as in every time a class gets nerfed all PVE becomes slightly harder due to the opostion is not 'balanced' or nerfed to match as in PVP.

So what we are ending up with is every class is getting made weaker and weaker PVE wise with every so called 'Ballance' but all the mobs , trash and bosses in pve are remaining the same, so i can understand the OP saying some trash is imposible for some players now, and the more nerfs that keep coming the harder and harder it will get for your mid skilled players who are not fully kitted out in BiS gear.
This is why PVP should should be ballance when you enter a arena and NOT a full on nerf for both PVP and PVE.
There is no way you can ballance classes to be fairly equal in PVP and be balanced in PVE also with the same gear and specs, it is just imposible to do and will never work like PWE are trying to do it.

So i fully understand many many groups wanting to skip as much as they can, it is not there fault, blame the Devs for keep messing things up.
I do remember running all t2 dungeons during 'open beta' and for a average to well geared player they were balanced quite well, but now due to the many many nerfs since 'live' launch and tons of feats and powers not working like they used to, some not working at all, its just a nightmare. and all i can see it is going to get a whole lot worse after the modul release and all the nerfs in that, two or three weeks after the module, there will no doubt be complaints about 1 certain class being OP, which will lead to that getting the nerf bat,and so it goes on and on and on, eventualy healers will have no heals and dps will do no damage , lmao

diogene0

fallenhawk wrote: »

Skipping TRASH monster to get to boss at end is not an exploit/cheat/whatever some of you want to call it. How many times can it be say that not everyone wants to look at every single stone in a dungeon.It after all call a dungeon run not walk. :rolleyes:

And what about boss suicides in spellplague and spider? Is it because the devs want players to kill boss instantly to get chests and loots faster? :rolleyes:

seisem2

The biggest problem I saw with PUG T2s is that players would be in there that are FAR undergeared. Just because they can zone in does not mean they have the ability to complete it. The other side of it is players are geared enough, but just are simply bad players and the instance is too hard for them. They cheat because they know no other way to beat it.

All the T2 dungeons and CN are beatable playing legit. We do them every night. Can't blame the devs for anything.

diogene0

bowdidly wrote: »

From what i have heard in guild and around in game chat alot of people are suffering due to the class nerfs every few weeks.
Many players are not in full T2 sets and because classes keep getting so called 'balanced' every few weeks, which in reality means a class which is said to be OP is nerfed, which then drops them down the damage meters and leaves a space for the next in line to be 'top' dps, then more people complain and hence they get nerfed, all mainly due to PVP

But all these nerfs which are based on PVP performance, were they are only against other players as an adverse affect on PVE, as in every time a class gets nerfed all PVE becomes slightly harder due to the opostion is not 'balanced' or nerfed to match as in PVP.

So what we are ending up with is every class is getting made weaker and weaker PVE wise with every so called 'Ballance' but all the mobs , trash and bosses in pve are remaining the same, so i can understand the OP saying some trash is imposible for some players now, and the more nerfs that keep coming the harder and harder it will get for your mid skilled players who are not fully kitted out in BiS gear.
This is why PVP should should be ballance when you enter a arena and NOT a full on nerf for both PVP and PVE.
There is no way you can ballance classes to be fairly equal in PVP and be balanced in PVE also with the same gear and specs, it is just imposible to do and will never work like PWE are trying to do it.

So i fully understand many many groups wanting to skip as much as they can, it is not there fault, blame the Devs for keep messing things up.
I do remember running all t2 dungeons during 'open beta' and for a average to well geared player they were balanced quite well, but now due to the many many nerfs since 'live' launch and tons of feats and powers not working like they used to, some not working at all, its just a nightmare. and all i can see it is going to get a whole lot worse after the modul release and all the nerfs in that, two or three weeks after the module, there will no doubt be complaints about 1 certain class being OP, which will lead to that getting the nerf bat,and so it goes on and on and on, eventualy healers will have no heals and dps will do no damage , lmao

Lol? You do know the first people doing T2s were doing it with a weird mix of purples and greens with 8.3k GS? It was a lot harder than it is now, with not a lot of experience (i was quite a bad player at that time), not much dps, a bad understanding of game mechanics, but we did legit runs only, took time but it worked. Of course, people weren't saying "ok we failed once, let's cheat and don't learn to beat that boss". We tried again and again and we got some gaming skills new players can't acquire because they get carried by cheaters cheesing everything.

ameranth342

seisem2 wrote: »

The biggest problem I saw with PUG T2s is that players would be in there that are FAR undergeared. Just because they can zone in does not mean they have the ability to complete it. The other side of it is players are geared enough, but just are simply bad players and the instance is too hard for them. They cheat because they know no other way to beat it.

All the T2 dungeons and CN are beatable playing legit. We do them every night. Can't blame the devs for anything.

Yes agree, BUT it works both ways, WHY spend 15 mins and using pots and time to kill somthing you dont actualy need to kill, the trash dont drop anything and you dont need XP, so what is the point

It ls like crossing a field and being confronted by a 3 foot high fence, you have 2 options: 1 walk 1 mile along fence to find a gate, or 2 climb over , Common sence would say climb over lol.

if the fence was not meant to be climbed over it should have been designed and built alot higher.

Common sence will always say if there is a way around a obstacle then that is the way to go.

parp12

ameranth342 wrote: »

Yes agree, BUT it works both ways, WHY spend 15 mins and using pots and time to kill somthing you dont actualy need to kill, the trash dont drop anything and you dont need XP, so what is the point

It ls like crossing a field and being confronted by a 3 foot high fence, you have 2 options: 1 walk 1 mile along fence to find a gate, or 2 climb over , Common sence would say climb over lol.

if the fence was not meant to be climbed over it should have been designed and built alot higher.

Common sence will always say if there is a way around a obstacle then that is the way to go.

You're confusing design and implementation. The design obviously didn't take into account that the implementation didn't meet the design specification. An expoit is a bug, which clearly isn't part of the design.

Let's take your example and correct it:

It ls like crossing a field and being confronted by a 30 foot high fence, you have 2 options: 1 walk 1 mile along fence to find a gate, or 2 attempt to climb over but the fence is too high. Common sence (sic) would say when you manage climb over it's a bug lol.

ameranth342

LMAO seriously , if it was 30 foot high common sence would say walk around, herpa derpa...........

So your saying just cos there are mobs in a dungeon, you HAVE to kill them, that is what they are there for.

While anybody with half a brain would avoid as much confrontation as possible and take the safest and best route to get to the final goal

and as for "You're confusing design and implementation" all the dungeons are very badly designed other wise people would not be able to "implement" different ways to get through them, There are no 'bugs' just badly designed dungeons or not finished off properly other wise players would not be able climb practicaly off the maps to get around from boss to boss

seisem2

ameranth342 wrote: »

Yes agree, BUT it works both ways, WHY spend 15 mins and using pots and time to kill somthing you dont actualy need to kill, the trash dont drop anything and you dont need XP, so what is the point

It ls like crossing a field and being confronted by a 3 foot high fence, you have 2 options: 1 walk 1 mile along fence to find a gate, or 2 climb over , Common sence would say climb over lol.

if the fence was not meant to be climbed over it should have been designed and built alot higher.

Common sence will always say if there is a way around a obstacle then that is the way to go.

Why are you trying to justify cheating? Clearing the trash is part of the dungeon... party of every dungeon in every rpg.

seisem2

ameranth342 wrote: »

LMAO seriously , if it was 30 foot high common sence would say walk around, herpa derpa...........

So your saying just cos there are mobs in a dungeon, you HAVE to kill them, that is what they are there for.

While anybody with half a brain would avoid as much confrontation as possible and take the safest and best route to get to the final goal

and as for "You're confusing design and implementation" all the dungeons are very badly designed other wise people would not be able to "implement" different ways to get through them, There are no 'bugs' just badly designed dungeons or not finished off properly other wise players would not be able climb practicaly off the maps to get around from boss to boss

Avoiding mobs and doing a dungeon efficiently is fine... but sneaking to the campfire and causing bosses to suicide is not acceptable.

bowdidly

seisem2 wrote: »

Why are you trying to justify cheating? Clearing the trash is part of the dungeon... party of every dungeon in every rpg.

I am not trying to justify anything, but DONT blame the players, cheating is when you use a script or cheat like that, just simply running from 1 fire to another is not exactly a 'cheat', its been like that for months and months in CN, if PWE had any realy problems about it, it would have been fixed a long long time ago, but no they leave it, people are not 'Cheating' there just doing what everybody else does, theres even live streams on Twitch.tv with guilds running campfires every day, PWE dont care, if they did it would be fixed.

Agree campfires in CN are broke, but until PWE actualy fix them you can not call everybody 'cheats' 'for doing fire runs

fantasycharacter

fallenhawk wrote: »

Skipping TRASH monster to get to boss at end is not an exploit/cheat/whatever some of you want to call it. How many times can it be say that not everyone wants to look at every single stone in a dungeon.It after all call a dungeon run not walk. :rolleyes:

The term is actually dungeon crawl(ing) - even slower than a walk .

Lots of people just want EZ mode.

bowdidly

seisem2 wrote: »

Avoiding mobs and doing a dungeon efficiently is fine... but sneaking to the campfire and causing bosses to suicide is not acceptable.

Yes it is not acceptable, and whos fault is it this can be done ???? certainly not the players, i am pretty sure it is down to the bad design of the dungeons in the first place. You should not even be able to kite th eboss out of his room, but thats not a player fault , its the DESIGN. or rarther lack of ..........

bioshrike

bowdidly wrote: »

Yes it is not acceptable, and whos fault is it this can be done ???? certainly not the players, i am pretty sure it is down to the bad design of the dungeons in the first place. You should not even be able to kite th eboss out of his room, but thats not a player fault , its the DESIGN. or rarther lack of ..........

I love this rationalization. Is it not stealing if someone doesn't lock their door or nail down their valuables? Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you *should*.

Is it really this difficult to grasp?

seisem2

bowdidly wrote: »

Yes it is not acceptable, and whos fault is it this can be done ???? certainly not the players, i am pretty sure it is down to the bad design of the dungeons in the first place. You should not even be able to kite th eboss out of his room, but thats not a player fault , its the DESIGN. or rarther lack of ..........

You can't kite the boss out of his room anymore, all of that has been fixed. They are making changes to this game. They have fixed a lot of shortcuts that used to be in the game, such as falling through the map on spider, standing on the edge of the pirate ship in PK, not being able to walk through invisible walls in CN, etc. They are fixing these issues. But, right now the game still has issues. It is your choice to cheat or not to cheat, it is as simple as that.

Like I said earlier. The reason people cheat is not that they are trying to save time, it is simply that the game is too hard for them.

parp12

ameranth342 wrote: »

LMAO seriously , if it was 30 foot high common sence would say walk around, herpa derpa...........

So your saying just cos there are mobs in a dungeon, you HAVE to kill them, that is what they are there for.

I didn't say anything of the sort. I explained that using a bug to bypass design does not mean the design should be retrofitted because a bug exists and you choose to exploit it. The design is the design.

and as for "You're confusing design and implementation" all the dungeons are very badly designed other wise people would not be able to "implement" different ways to get through them, There are no 'bugs' just badly designed dungeons or not finished off properly other wise players would not be able climb practicaly off the maps to get around from boss to boss

All you're doing is showing a lack of understanding what design and what implementation mean. By your "logic" companies waste time and money by having test phases because if you design something one way then that's how it will be implemented. You should sell youself to the highest bidder now, you'll be worth millions.

bowdidly

bioshrike wrote: »

I love this rationalization. Is it not stealing if someone doesn't lock their door or nail down their valuables? Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you *should*.

Is it really this difficult to grasp?

No it is not, , it is the fact that people come on here calling other players 'cheats', the option is in the game to do these campfire runs etc, without using any scripts or bugging anything out by doing somthing in the game, , all players are doing is runnning from one fire to another, no cheats involved, just pressing a forward movement button,
It is the games fault this can be done NOT the players. but again if PWE realy cared about it, it would have been fixed months ago, so obviously they dont

bioshrike

bowdidly wrote: »

No it is not, , it is the fact that people come on here calling other players 'cheats', the option is in the game to do these campfire runs etc, without using any scripts or bugging anything out by doing somthing in the game, , all players are doing is runnning from one fire to another, no cheats involved, just pressing a forward movement button,
It is the games fault this can be dont NOT the players

The game also permits players to con others out of trades... there's stuff that's intended, and stuff that isn't. Again, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should or that it's right...

parp12

bowdidly wrote: »

cheating is when you use a script or cheat like that

You're really worth quoting. The definition of cheating is cheating?