What if I told you that...Most of the rogues that kills u with daggers are using Lurker's Assault? Since LA will be nerf hugely and CoS by only 8 dagger. It's nearly impossible to get killed with permastealth. First if we use LA, TR will teleport to u, therefore u have a chance to cc the rogue and if he uses stealth you'll see the silhouette, Secondly 8 daggers is so not enough to kill u. It requires lvl 8-10 enchantments, perfect vorpal enchantment, and a squishy prey to get owned by 8 daggers.
It got passed over as the developer's couldn't find permastealth to nerf it.
Actually, even when they tried out stealth leeching At-Wills, they hadn't eliminated permastealth, as I could maintain it on test. So, permastealth never really went away. In any case, they figured out it wasn't something that resulted in what they wanted, so they dropped the stealth leech of At-Wills, and along with that the potential limiting of permastealth.
So, permastealth is here to stay... for now.
I should note that I'm coming from a PvE perspective. As I don't PvP, I have no idea how permastealth is faring there.
What if I told you that...Most of the rogues that kills u with daggers are using Lurker's Assault? Since LA will be nerf hugely and CoS by only 8 dagger. It's nearly impossible to get killed with permastealth. First if we use LA, TR will teleport to u, therefore u have a chance to cc the rogue and if he uses stealth you'll see the silhouette, Secondly 8 daggers is so not enough to kill u. It requires lvl 8-10 enchantments, perfect vorpal enchantment, and a squishy prey to get owned by 8 daggers.
I had a rogue @ 60. My opinion on LA and CoS:
Dev may chose to go with the nerf in LA+CoS (the last stack of 8-12 may simply go as high as 8000-15000 per dagger). Instead of killing the perm stealth build off (which turn off a lot of rogue), they would want to make it manageable for the other class.. You can't had the best of both world.
No the bottom line is. The ONLY time these cry nerf rogue threads will stop is when the rogue is completely unplayable where it dies as soon as the match starts and gets placed into a repeated self kill loop. The rogue is NEVER fought in pvp, they are fought on the forums because 90% of the player base simply suck at pvp and need the devs to play for them.
Properly spelling "rogue" might give some credibility to many of the posts in this thread, but I just can't take seriously a post by someone who can't even spell his class' name.
No the bottom line is. The ONLY time these cry nerf rogue threads will stop is when the rogue is completely unplayable where it dies as soon as the match starts and gets placed into a repeated self kill loop. The rogue is NEVER fought in pvp, they are fought on the forums because 90% of the player base simply suck at pvp and need the devs to play for them.
Bold words. I doubt that active rogues currently comprise elite 10% of player base in-game (5 classes available, and damage dealing classes are usually much more popular), so let me get that straight: you're saying that rogues oppose the balancing so ferociously because
>90% of the rogue players simply suck at pvp and need the devs to play for them
nerfing things that destroy pve for the worst pvp ive ever seen on a game
gg
and the jumping --> attacking.. all classes can do that
that was part of the "skill" required to play a rogue GL getting off a flurry in pvp to destroy a gfs block without jumps
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited August 2013
Moderator Notice: . . . . . Folks, if you cannot purvey your opinions, feedback, and discussions without making insults... then do not post on these forums. There is never a need to fling insults. Such posts and their gained replies have been removed. Please do not respond to this Moderator Notice, as such is not allowed either. Please keep it civil, thanks!
Lantis - The issue is the combat team that makes these sort of decisions has no idea how the game is actually played. Even when you watch the NW Stream the players behind the keyboard are about average players. The company needs pro games that know the mechanic's and creative builds so they can assist in the right direction.
Exactly, only way how to balance a PVP is to run a tournament and closely monitor the metagame..
First they need to merge the servers and give the PVP some love (like a possibility to challenge other party leader for a match).
But I am slowly finding out Cryptic is a strange company, they rather pull some random nerfs from their sleeves. And have mods posting nonsense comments on forums..
If you call LA and CoS nerfs class breaking, then you have no idea how to play a rogue.
If you think about it, the LA change is game breaking, but not in the way you may think. Before it may have done more damage, but you could hear them activate it a mile away, and either bump it off before they used it, or avoid them for the duration.
Now however it teleports them to you, and you cannot bump it off. As a TR I think awesome give up some dmg to teleport onto a target and gank it without fear of losing the daily. As any other class I think I would rather TR have the old version, it may hit harder if they catch you unaware, but the new version you cannot bump off or avoid since it has a teleport.
I play all 5 classes and have no real bias towards any of them. the CoS 8 daggers nerf. Honestly the only time I use more than 7 daggers is in pve, and yes I feel the nerf heavily there, but in pvp I never even notice it. I have been paying real close attention to daggers from cos in pvp, and this change will rarely be felt in pvp, unless all you do is dagger spam but then you are no real threat anyway.
The power change that we were given when they gutted SE being taken away that hurts, but mainly PVE. The double whammy to DF and bleeds again big PVE nerf for skilled TR, but non skilled TR will not notice it at all.
The gloaming cut change, well honestly it was always underrated by people who did not understand how to use it, now it's even more underrated. I'd actually call this a permastealth pvp buff.
As with the majority of class changes they are hampering PVE play and not really doing much to the PVP endgame. Granted some of the changes on some classes will be felt in PVP but they are much more detrimental to PVE. I still give a large majority of all the class changes a big thumbs down, as being poorly thought out.
Last thing... The SWEET graphics from the old lurkers which could be turned off if you didn't like it, being replaced with the very boring new graphics, and no way to get the old epic feel back, is just bad, bad, bad.
Properly spelling "rogue" might give some credibility to many of the posts in this thread, but I just can't take seriously a post by someone who can't even spell his class' name.
Sorry.
I'm developing a theory that "rouge" is a super-secret sub-class of rogues. It's unclear whether rouge is a base class or a paragon path. Perhaps particularly unskilled or illiterate rogues get the option to multiclass into rouge. I'm still working on indicators to identify this subspecies (ie, a rogue standing still and not in stealth trying to melee you in PVP may be a rouge) in the wild, but fortunately (or not?) they're in no danger of extinction.
Threads like these are what lead to these nerfs you are crying about.
If indeed threads on the forums lead directly to nerfs then the problem is definitely not with the threads.
I think the causality is coexistent. Both the threads and the nerfs happen for the same reason. People feel that they are getting owned in a way that offers them no way to respond.
I have long held the opinion that PVP should be a conversation between at least two parties and not a shouting match with one or more silent partners. If a player feels he or she can do something, that they have a chance, then they will come back with interest even if they are losing. Just the promise that they might be able to prevail is enough to keep reasonable people interested.
And this is where perma-stealth fails muster. It denies that conversation, the back and forth of battle. It makes the engagement a one-way action where the target gets no response. Or at least that is the perception. Yes, I hear you out there, going on about how this daily and that encounter can make a difference. But the idea that players are going to be fine with swinging away at a target they can’t even see is just flawed.
The nerfs should serve to reduce the ability of the perma-stealther to do more than harass but players are a crafty lot and I would hardly call the fate of the perma-stealther sealed. And the dev team clearly wishes to keep the idea of combat stealth as viable as possible. But of course we see made manifest the fever dreams and nightmares of some many developers past and present who have tried to imagine a game-balance equation with direct combat stealth rogues.
So the devs have reluctantly picked at the threads of perma-stealth like a busy child with an unwanted dinner. We shall see if it reduces the annoyance of the phantom menace to an acceptable level.
But keeping the combat conversation from being a true back and forth dialogue is a bad idea devs. You are developing around a hindrance you yourself have created. There isn’t even a metric for the effects of damage dealt while effectively invisible. You can’t even gauge its effects and even these measures are little more that a shot in the dark at the actual problem.
William Faulkner said that you “must be willing to kill all your darlings”, what would combat and balance be like if you relinquished your deathgrip on the idea of the combat long term stealth rogue? Just consider it for a moment Devs.
It got passed over as the developer's couldn't find permastealth to nerf it.
Actually, even when they tried out stealth leeching At-Wills, they hadn't eliminated permastealth, as I could maintain it on test. So, permastealth never really went away. In any case, they figured out it wasn't something that resulted in what they wanted, so they dropped the stealth leech of At-Wills, and along with that the potential limiting of permastealth.
So, permastealth is here to stay... for now.
I should note that I'm coming from a PvE perspective. As I don't PvP, I have no idea how permastealth is faring there.
yes cause we all know that Dungeons and Dragons has always been played for PvP no one does adventures in dungeons in that game... its crazy to think that a D&D game should be built for playing dungeon adventures... everyone knows this game is supposta be World of Warcraft part 2 and should be all pvp... heaven help us when they start to treat this as a PVE game.
can you sense the sarcasm yet?... pvp players go play guild wars 2 and leave the Dungeons alone!
dev's wise up... pleasing the pvp crowd kills a game, don't believe me... go ask Blizzard and how they lost more than half of their customer base when they made World of Warcraft for pvp players and casual gamers with the expansion Cataclysm... you want this to be another PWI epic fail that shuts down... be my guest lose money no skin off my nose I can always just go to Elder Scrolls Online when it comes out.
Oh Atari how I miss you!
0
ukyuuMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1
edited August 2013
Yes, PVP users sure are killing games.
And beware if you decide to check out pvp can be without having spent 50K AD for your try. They will insult you and yell that you are a load. They should make a pvp server and leave those **** elitists between themselves there (with an option to report said **** elitists so they are sent to their kin).
To think that the PVE part will be more difficult due to these rude (for the least one can say) players kind of feel harsh. I wish that the game balance would be a bit better for Devoted Clerics and that they address a bit their case. I may not be the best player of the world, but if this game doesn't allow average players to be happy, then it should be written on the website so we don't get in this game.
Enjoying casual pvp for 59 levels just to be insulted / looked down because I hit 60 made me think that really, HCG pvp elitists should have their own shard. And some love for the DC PVE-wise should come prior to fixing their issues in PVP...
That said, I lack the english skills to really explains myself saddly T-T. (and sorry for the spelling !)
I would not say that permanent stealth builds are overpowered in PvP. The reason why some streamers get so great results with them is that they use the build in conjunction with greater tenebrous enchants and a perfect vorpal. These are the most expensive and powerful (OP even maybe) items in the game and will make any class have a great advantage, especially over new and badly equipped players. If you make a video about it using permanent stealth it of course looks much overpowered, but a pre-patch GWF with Tenebrous stacked and Perfect Vorpal using Unstoppable would beat public PvP players up just as hard.
IMO permanent stealth in PVP is not too overpowered if you dont have the right enchantments on your gear. What could be a problem though is that in PvE permanent stealth opens up possibilities for abusive behaviour, allowing to do stuff that players are not intented to be doing alone.
Comments
It got passed over as the developer's couldn't find permastealth to nerf it.
Actually, even when they tried out stealth leeching At-Wills, they hadn't eliminated permastealth, as I could maintain it on test. So, permastealth never really went away. In any case, they figured out it wasn't something that resulted in what they wanted, so they dropped the stealth leech of At-Wills, and along with that the potential limiting of permastealth.
So, permastealth is here to stay... for now.
I should note that I'm coming from a PvE perspective. As I don't PvP, I have no idea how permastealth is faring there.
I had a rogue @ 60. My opinion on LA and CoS:
Dev may chose to go with the nerf in LA+CoS (the last stack of 8-12 may simply go as high as 8000-15000 per dagger). Instead of killing the perm stealth build off (which turn off a lot of rogue), they would want to make it manageable for the other class.. You can't had the best of both world.
Sorry.
I want this class in NW.
Bold words. I doubt that active rogues currently comprise elite 10% of player base in-game (5 classes available, and damage dealing classes are usually much more popular), so let me get that straight: you're saying that rogues oppose the balancing so ferociously because
>90% of the rogue players simply suck at pvp and need the devs to play for them
Nothing personal, just asking.
gg
and the jumping --> attacking.. all classes can do that
that was part of the "skill" required to play a rogue GL getting off a flurry in pvp to destroy a gfs block without jumps
. . . . . Folks, if you cannot purvey your opinions, feedback, and discussions without making insults... then do not post on these forums. There is never a need to fling insults. Such posts and their gained replies have been removed. Please do not respond to this Moderator Notice, as such is not allowed either. Please keep it civil, thanks!
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Exactly, only way how to balance a PVP is to run a tournament and closely monitor the metagame..
First they need to merge the servers and give the PVP some love (like a possibility to challenge other party leader for a match).
But I am slowly finding out Cryptic is a strange company, they rather pull some random nerfs from their sleeves. And have mods posting nonsense comments on forums..
If you think about it, the LA change is game breaking, but not in the way you may think. Before it may have done more damage, but you could hear them activate it a mile away, and either bump it off before they used it, or avoid them for the duration.
Now however it teleports them to you, and you cannot bump it off. As a TR I think awesome give up some dmg to teleport onto a target and gank it without fear of losing the daily. As any other class I think I would rather TR have the old version, it may hit harder if they catch you unaware, but the new version you cannot bump off or avoid since it has a teleport.
I play all 5 classes and have no real bias towards any of them. the CoS 8 daggers nerf. Honestly the only time I use more than 7 daggers is in pve, and yes I feel the nerf heavily there, but in pvp I never even notice it. I have been paying real close attention to daggers from cos in pvp, and this change will rarely be felt in pvp, unless all you do is dagger spam but then you are no real threat anyway.
The power change that we were given when they gutted SE being taken away that hurts, but mainly PVE. The double whammy to DF and bleeds again big PVE nerf for skilled TR, but non skilled TR will not notice it at all.
The gloaming cut change, well honestly it was always underrated by people who did not understand how to use it, now it's even more underrated. I'd actually call this a permastealth pvp buff.
As with the majority of class changes they are hampering PVE play and not really doing much to the PVP endgame. Granted some of the changes on some classes will be felt in PVP but they are much more detrimental to PVE. I still give a large majority of all the class changes a big thumbs down, as being poorly thought out.
Last thing... The SWEET graphics from the old lurkers which could be turned off if you didn't like it, being replaced with the very boring new graphics, and no way to get the old epic feel back, is just bad, bad, bad.
I'm developing a theory that "rouge" is a super-secret sub-class of rogues. It's unclear whether rouge is a base class or a paragon path. Perhaps particularly unskilled or illiterate rogues get the option to multiclass into rouge. I'm still working on indicators to identify this subspecies (ie, a rogue standing still and not in stealth trying to melee you in PVP may be a rouge) in the wild, but fortunately (or not?) they're in no danger of extinction.
I think the causality is coexistent. Both the threads and the nerfs happen for the same reason. People feel that they are getting owned in a way that offers them no way to respond.
I have long held the opinion that PVP should be a conversation between at least two parties and not a shouting match with one or more silent partners. If a player feels he or she can do something, that they have a chance, then they will come back with interest even if they are losing. Just the promise that they might be able to prevail is enough to keep reasonable people interested.
And this is where perma-stealth fails muster. It denies that conversation, the back and forth of battle. It makes the engagement a one-way action where the target gets no response. Or at least that is the perception. Yes, I hear you out there, going on about how this daily and that encounter can make a difference. But the idea that players are going to be fine with swinging away at a target they can’t even see is just flawed.
The nerfs should serve to reduce the ability of the perma-stealther to do more than harass but players are a crafty lot and I would hardly call the fate of the perma-stealther sealed. And the dev team clearly wishes to keep the idea of combat stealth as viable as possible. But of course we see made manifest the fever dreams and nightmares of some many developers past and present who have tried to imagine a game-balance equation with direct combat stealth rogues.
So the devs have reluctantly picked at the threads of perma-stealth like a busy child with an unwanted dinner. We shall see if it reduces the annoyance of the phantom menace to an acceptable level.
But keeping the combat conversation from being a true back and forth dialogue is a bad idea devs. You are developing around a hindrance you yourself have created. There isn’t even a metric for the effects of damage dealt while effectively invisible. You can’t even gauge its effects and even these measures are little more that a shot in the dark at the actual problem.
William Faulkner said that you “must be willing to kill all your darlings”, what would combat and balance be like if you relinquished your deathgrip on the idea of the combat long term stealth rogue? Just consider it for a moment Devs.
This is incorrect, it drains stealth only while you're out of stealth, when in stealth it does nothing.
Please tell me you are joking...
stealth does tick down faster if you are taking damage -_-
bilethorn doesn't proc when you're in stealth, I'll find it on my VOD and link it later
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Check the videos linked in this thread
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?324111-Build-Guide-quot-INT-Rogue-quot-Perma-Stealth-Build
can you sense the sarcasm yet?... pvp players go play guild wars 2 and leave the Dungeons alone!
dev's wise up... pleasing the pvp crowd kills a game, don't believe me... go ask Blizzard and how they lost more than half of their customer base when they made World of Warcraft for pvp players and casual gamers with the expansion Cataclysm... you want this to be another PWI epic fail that shuts down... be my guest lose money no skin off my nose I can always just go to Elder Scrolls Online when it comes out.
And beware if you decide to check out pvp can be without having spent 50K AD for your try. They will insult you and yell that you are a load. They should make a pvp server and leave those **** elitists between themselves there (with an option to report said **** elitists so they are sent to their kin).
To think that the PVE part will be more difficult due to these rude (for the least one can say) players kind of feel harsh. I wish that the game balance would be a bit better for Devoted Clerics and that they address a bit their case. I may not be the best player of the world, but if this game doesn't allow average players to be happy, then it should be written on the website so we don't get in this game.
Enjoying casual pvp for 59 levels just to be insulted / looked down because I hit 60 made me think that really, HCG pvp elitists should have their own shard. And some love for the DC PVE-wise should come prior to fixing their issues in PVP...
That said, I lack the english skills to really explains myself saddly T-T. (and sorry for the spelling !)
IMO permanent stealth in PVP is not too overpowered if you dont have the right enchantments on your gear. What could be a problem though is that in PvE permanent stealth opens up possibilities for abusive behaviour, allowing to do stuff that players are not intented to be doing alone.