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BoP or BoE?
alecstorm
Member Posts: 142 Bounty Hunter
Community, what do you think about end level game gear being BoE?
When i reached level 60 i realized i couldn't make many DD, because i had not clue, the gear and enough level 60 friends. After trying the same ultra easy dungeon, i decided to try something more difficult, but there was always someone that went afk, ragequitted, crashed.
To make the story short, i started to do pvp.
Few days and i was full t1. Then i realized i could sell pvp items in the AH.
People loves helms.
People pay a lot for helms, even if they cost less glory than all. Some GF or GWF helms, and my GF was full high general. Then bought ench, main hand, shield, etc.
Decided to run a GWF. I run a Sentinel, so i was wondering what set would be better than t1 (i had it ready even before my GWF was 60, of course).
Then came GG. I did it 2 or 3 times, but i didn't like it. Farmed the t1 dungeon 9 times, if i'm not wrong. Bought a off hand, sold it, returned to dominion and started to farm helms again.
2 or 3 days, i don't remember, and i was full t2 pvp. Perfect for my sentinel. But this time i haven's bought the ench yet.
I was wondering how much i could enjoy a game in wich the best way to obtain end level gear is to farm helms in dominion. Ok, maybe very good players with very good guilds can do better, but i think i did it quite fast.
Then i realized that everything i could obtain can be bought with real money, because all is BoE.
But the sad truth is that if this will change suddenly tomorrow, glory of dominion and coins of GG would be pretty useless. The same for DD, except for ench maybe.
I thinked to try new builds, new gear (expecially new ench), but the cost is really high. Thinked about spending money, but i decided it's not convenient.
A lot of people told me that they could buy litterally everything they wanted in the store, playing as casual player, converting AH in ZEN and not spending a single penny.
This sounded weird. If this is true, probably the company soon will not be able to pay its employees
If is not true, there's a little problem here.
What you think it is?
Do you have some solutions?
I propose to make epic gear BoP (BoA maybe only for low gear, not more than t1, but i think BoP it's better.
DD, Glory and GG coins should give more options. Buy enchants, mounts, and so on.
In this way everyone could equip his characters, but not sell epic gear in AH. Basically, end level gear could not be bought with real money anymore. To have GG gear you should actually run GG, instead of farm dominion for 2 or 3 days.
But there would still a reason to do DD, GG and dominion. Ench, mount, etc. Maybe epic items could be changed for tokens, then traded for AD or something else.
This would help good players to play, without having other pay to obtain the same or better things. Not only, but end game will be less inflated by AH. People will run dungeons instead of saying that there's not an endgame, because they actually will need to run this dungeons to equip their chars.
When i reached level 60 i realized i couldn't make many DD, because i had not clue, the gear and enough level 60 friends. After trying the same ultra easy dungeon, i decided to try something more difficult, but there was always someone that went afk, ragequitted, crashed.
To make the story short, i started to do pvp.
Few days and i was full t1. Then i realized i could sell pvp items in the AH.
People loves helms.
People pay a lot for helms, even if they cost less glory than all. Some GF or GWF helms, and my GF was full high general. Then bought ench, main hand, shield, etc.
Decided to run a GWF. I run a Sentinel, so i was wondering what set would be better than t1 (i had it ready even before my GWF was 60, of course).
Then came GG. I did it 2 or 3 times, but i didn't like it. Farmed the t1 dungeon 9 times, if i'm not wrong. Bought a off hand, sold it, returned to dominion and started to farm helms again.
2 or 3 days, i don't remember, and i was full t2 pvp. Perfect for my sentinel. But this time i haven's bought the ench yet.
I was wondering how much i could enjoy a game in wich the best way to obtain end level gear is to farm helms in dominion. Ok, maybe very good players with very good guilds can do better, but i think i did it quite fast.
Then i realized that everything i could obtain can be bought with real money, because all is BoE.
But the sad truth is that if this will change suddenly tomorrow, glory of dominion and coins of GG would be pretty useless. The same for DD, except for ench maybe.
I thinked to try new builds, new gear (expecially new ench), but the cost is really high. Thinked about spending money, but i decided it's not convenient.
A lot of people told me that they could buy litterally everything they wanted in the store, playing as casual player, converting AH in ZEN and not spending a single penny.
This sounded weird. If this is true, probably the company soon will not be able to pay its employees
If is not true, there's a little problem here.
What you think it is?
Do you have some solutions?
I propose to make epic gear BoP (BoA maybe only for low gear, not more than t1, but i think BoP it's better.
DD, Glory and GG coins should give more options. Buy enchants, mounts, and so on.
In this way everyone could equip his characters, but not sell epic gear in AH. Basically, end level gear could not be bought with real money anymore. To have GG gear you should actually run GG, instead of farm dominion for 2 or 3 days.
But there would still a reason to do DD, GG and dominion. Ench, mount, etc. Maybe epic items could be changed for tokens, then traded for AD or something else.
This would help good players to play, without having other pay to obtain the same or better things. Not only, but end game will be less inflated by AH. People will run dungeons instead of saying that there's not an endgame, because they actually will need to run this dungeons to equip their chars.
Post edited by alecstorm on
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Go back to june and look at the threads about this when the developers proposed making this change. They shelved the idea as a bad one.
The endgame of Neverwinter is the economy, not gear, and the ability to sell that gear however one chooses is a very very large part of that economy and provides a vehicle for players to participate in it.
In my opinion, this is a easy way to make money, but it's more a ptw than a ftp.
That's the reason i decided to move aways from nvn. I really liked to know if someone could change, because i liked the game, at least its potentiality. I was also curious to know what people thinked about, but it's quite clear that most of actual players like to buy stuffs without doing real endgame contents. Maybe other people moved out, i don't know. Clearly it's a matter of taste.
I hope everyone will have fun.
Being able to buy gear, does nothing, at all, to effect you from still getting yours via drops. You can farm all you want, just for the drop you want. No one is forcing anyone to buy it. It is simply another option, one people arn't willing to see changed. And not for the sake of an angry few.
You get your gear your way, leave others to get theirs, their way. Stop trying to tell people how they should be playing. Especially when it seems that the Developers seem to agree with folks that BoP is bad.
As far as the accusations. Please prove that folks who buy gear did nothing to earn it. Or that they don't wish to use the gear they bought to actually run endgame content. Unless you can come up with hard evidence to support your theory. You are in no place to make accusations.
The endgame is about economy around enchants, not around gear. This is kind of the new model anyway, as we saw also in GW2, albeit in a slightly different form. The reality is that most of the community in MMOs is not really into running dungeons 20-30 times to get gear. They want a more reasonable progression, and so the game gives you gear relatively easily, and then you need to grind to tweak up the enchants for competitive PvP, and that means you need to be able to sell stuff for ADs. It also works for cash players, but it gets very *very* cash expensive to fully tweak up your enchants using RL cash -- so, sure, a tiny portion of the playerbase will spend $1000 or more on enchants, but most won't. Most of the presumed "P2W" people are just buying their gear set and relatively modest enchants (say, 7s), which really just gets them on the baseline to grind up the ADs to get the serious, competitive enchants. It sidesteps only a small part of the grind, really, in the grand scheme of things. Sure, people can sidestep the entire grind, but its *very* expensive when you're talking about full kit of top enchants and greaters. Most people don't spend that much, really.
The problem is that people are used to a system whereby baseline gear is BOP and a status item. Whereas in the newer models, baseline gear is easyish to obtain, but the enchant tweaks are a long grind to get to BIS, which is required for competitive PvP.
I told my opinion, you could have a different one. No need to be hurted if you deserved your gear. But it's not right that someone could do it even faster without doing any dungeons or GG. There's nothing to prove. Everyone knows that. If you like that, why have shame? If you don't like it, why defend that? It's clear why developers like BoE, less clear for gamers (at least, gamers that want to play the game to obtain items).
I told clearly that i don't like that. I even did it because queue for dungeons is pretty ridicolous and you need a full premade team to be sure to avoid leavers, but this is another story. I don't like the idea of playing a game where gear can be bought with money or without doing what is needed to drop it.
You like that? Good for you. I'm out till this is not fixed. If it will never be fixed, i will not come back. I told 1 time, and my post disappeared. I tell another time, with the (false and absurd) hope that developers will think about it. No need to tell what games are winning in the mmo competition.
But people is offended. Like i was trying to force people to leave game, or to force them to play as i want. Hundreds of people posted their opinion and proposal in the forum. Someone should be offended is people tell there are not enough paragons' paths? Just to make an example.
If someone is hurted by what i wrote, i can assume only one conclusion. No proof needed, i'm not interested.
From 7 lvl ench to max there's not so much difference. You can do CN even with less. Maybe in pvp you could feel the difference.
But even most entusiast pvp players get bored after playing always the same maps. And happens also that you play more than 10 games in a row with leavers. Sure, you can join with a full premade team, but queue can put you against the same team of leavers. You win the match, lose the fun.
I'll go a bit out of theme now.
Sure i didn't get how much awesome is this new model. I'm only wondering why people should buy items that cost even more than a full game. And i mean games that offers much more contents than this. Have you ever seen so much players complaining because the best part of mmo was leveling the chars? Me not. Not in L2, not in WoW, not in GW. Sure here exp is awesome. But this is a mmo, not a single player game.
And please, don't tell me as someone did in another thread, that a casual player can have all items he wants in zen market. If this was true, this game will go bankrupt soon
The endgame so is this: i don't have to grind dungeon 30 times to get my armor. But then i have to do it to farm enchants. Otherwise, i would lose in pvp maps.
Let's talk about that maps. Ok, i talked about dominion already.
And GG? At the actual state, i can define it chaos. Until today i didn't hear about a full 20 premade team. It's possible, but not probable. So you see people running alone and trying to cap (again, dominion...). Some people run in team of 5, other in team of 10. When you have to fight, it's all random. It's even hard to chose a target
If you win pvp in GG, you can run a dungeon that is not better in drops of the dungeons you could do before.
Why don't add some really new pvp maps? We'r not enough as community maybe?
I don't mean another form of dominion. To make an example, think about the variety of old gw1 maps. This could be an idea.
The problem of GG is that is another dominion where what you do matter even less than what you do in 5vs5 (law of big numbers).
I think that the more general point is that the economics of gaming is moving away from subscription models and towards cash shop models. The reason is that this makes more money for developers and publishers because of the track record that every sub-based game, other than two (counting EVE) has not been able to survive based on a sub for very long. Now, we can disagree about whether people should be able to buy the game currency with RL currency, but that's a bridge that was crossed by PWE a long time ago. STO has it, and the other PWE games have it, as well. As a result, if people are willing to spend, these games can get very expensive -- hence the model. Now, not many people spend that much money, but a few do, and they make money for the company that way. More money than having 80% of your sub base leave after 6-8 weeks as is the norm in a sub MMO. People may leave after similar amount of time here, too, but a portion of the playerbase will have spent more than $75 (base game plus month sub) during their time here, thereby generating more cash. And a F2P game retains a larger playerbase, making it easier to attract new players. This is why all of the sub based games, again other than 2, have gone F2P. Gamers are responsible for this, by punishing sub-based games financially for not living up to their expectations of them, comparing them all to a now 9 year old game. So now we have this model, which is designed to make money specifically taking into account, and designing the system around, the reality of how fundamentally fickle MMO players are -- we are the ones who caused this model to come to fruition.
. . . . . In my opinion, all gear in the game should never bind and instead durability and repairing should be introduced in its place. This would invigorate the economy and player trade as well as provide a gold-sink (repairs). Not to forget to mention, this would also be in line with the way D&D handles items and magical items. It is rare that a magical item "binds" to a character in pnp D&D. Blanket gear binding is not a D&D mechanic (certain magic items though, like cursed items and items with an EGO and INT score, do often form a sense of "binding" however).
. . . . . I absolutely loathe the binding mechanic introduced post/circa UO age MMOs. I miss the good old days of player trading and reusing gear on other characters. To me, binding gear is just absurd and annoying as the Nine Hells were to Elminster Aumar.
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Oh the old days of UO, i 100% agree with u on the BoP system. Although the class specific items its the same as post UO in neverwinter.... Random stats in items is the best way IMO to have in a MMO, people would be able to make real bussiness with those items or/and ofc sell them in AH aswell. Also in my opinion would be easier for dev to make the loot tables, for example lvl 60 trash mobs could drop gear with 3-4 diferent stats with a 150 value while bosses could drop gear with 3-4-5 with 175 value. Well if u play Uo i think u know what im talking about
I know that neverwinter wont work that way ever, the system is already built and i doubt it will be changed....
I believe next year ESO will provide MMO gamers a bit of sandbox game experience in a moderm MMO.
BoE needs (in my opinion) some adjustments. Making gear is really too easy. A lot of features get useless soon. People stop to do it, queue time became long, and even if you would like to do a dungeon suddenly you simply ask "why do it?".
Let's tell in this way: there are features of game that requires a big effort and gives poor rewards, compared with others that are easy, fast, and give better rewards.
Really trash mobs should drop something useful like enchants, at least there would be a utility to make dungeon and people would even stop doing run, that are quite a failure of the dungeon design.