so i should ignore you, because your hatred is blindly strong. Just go hump abom's leg on one of his threads, maybe if you are lucky he will adopt you to be his new pet troll.
While we at it ask cryptic for some more nerfs, when there is nothing left to nerf and the class is completelly destroyed maybe then you guys wont have any excuses left to justify getting rolled over and begin to l2p.
From the community mod in stealth is now dead:
As this discussion continues please keep the Rules of Conduct in mind.
First and most importantly respect the opinions of others. Do not degrade another posters opinions because you do not agree with their opinion. Simply put treat others as you wish to be treated.
This includes calling any user a troll. Calling others trolls is trolling in and of itself.
Now since there seems to be confusion about what the word means to the Rules of Conduct:
No trolling, or flaming.
Any form of personal insult will not be tolerated. General rule of thumb: if you think that what you are about to post is insulting, don't post it. Unless a person is insulting or disrespecting another person's opinions they are not trolling.
I want you guys to express your opinions but you have to keep the thread civil.
Stop with the insults and accusations. Express your opinions and do not degrade the opinions of others.
In another thread. Can we stay on topic so this thread isn't closed either. I think that explains the rules and saying l2p isn't proper conduct either.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013
its safer that way. After abom said he has a GF and for some reason thinks he is not a tank, but rather a dps on dungeons, he is better off running with the horde not expressing individual thoughts.
GF's aren't even the best tanks in the game and can use Def buffs as of now a Rogue can 1 shot the most def GF that's why rogues are broke and GF's aren't for one. I also don't consider my character a tank I find him to be more of a Dps and when I PvE my roll is to Dps even single target Dps on the boss. I invested everything into Dps arm pen, crit, greater vorpal so that will throw out some decent damage especially with knights challenge doing double damage. There really is no need for a tank in this game and PvE is pretty messed up so hopefully that changes. Every tank runs a Dps conquer build so that says that there is pretty much something wrong and defensive can use some buffs. I didn't ask for Dps buffs or PvP buffs I just was saying they are a weak Def class and I mean weak. So some buffs could be used in that department so they maybe some day can actually fulfill there roll as a tank class.
That is why GF's need Def buff's if you don't see it that way that is fine. So maybe rogues wont tank the boss hopefully in the future and a real tank will and there can be some good flow and great balance in dungeons with each class doing there respective roll.
lets take note that guardian fighters have a considerable number of skills that:
1 -CC
2- buff people of his party
3- generate threat (i dont know why a dps class would want to be beaten)
4- has a shield to block all incoming damage untill it "breaks"
5- has a good number of at wills that regenerate his shield meter
6- has absurd self healing (regen and fighters recovery(thanks to ubber ap generation it is up almost all the time)) and damage soaking
7- and lets not forget that he has a cozy skill that prevents damage for all of his teammates and direct it to himself.
but abom on his own mind seem to think that for some reason the class with all of the above is not a tank, but rather a dps machine. He even thinks the game with boss fights filled with adds that will roll over your team dont need a tank (not like people get rolled by adds when they pile up on boss fights (assuming nobody is aggoring them)).
And abom, you go around being all "polite" and etc claiming rules, but you are by far the greatest troll around who just loves to stroll around rogue forums tossing missinformation, and the few things you get right such as ubber damage and etc that rogues can deal, ANY class can deal as long as they have their hands on ubber enchants, so as it was already stated to you, its not the class that is OP, but the enchants that need to be fixed.
Now when you prove me that a rogue with ZERO enchants on gear can pull out 30k+ in a crit lashing blade, then i will start believing you (hitting defenseless dummies dont count, you must land that damage on another player with equal gear and ZERO enchants)
lets take note that guardian fighters have a considerable number of skills that:
1 -CC
2- buff people of his party
3- generate threat (i dont know why a dps class would want to be beaten)
4- has a shield to block all incoming damage untill it "breaks"
5- has a good number of at wills that regenerate his shield meter
6- has absurd self healing (regen and fighters recovery(thanks to ubber ap generation it is up almost all the time)) and damage soaking
7- and lets not forget that he has a cozy skill that prevents damage for all of his teammates and direct it to himself.
but abom on his own mind seem to think that for some reason the class with all of the above is not a tank, bur rather a dps machine. He even thinks the game with boss fights filled with adds that will roll over your team dont need a tank (not like people get rolled by adds when they pile up on boss fights (assuming nobody is aggoring them)).
Are you a fan of mine and following me I am honored.
rebreak down what you said
1 - CC- 2 skills that leave you prone not over the top and dodgeable
2 - Not really minor at best
3 - Threat never was a issue. I don't even take any threat skills. The issue is the Aoe target cap that doesn't allow you to grab mobs effectively.
4 - Has a shield that is supposed to work and block but doesn't since the mechanic needs to be redone. When it works right it block all incoming damage of a VERY small amount and breaks in 1-3 seconds which makes it completely ineffective in PvE and is not even close to as good as untouchable as a skill for tanking. So some huge Def buffs and a reworking of the blocking is needed.
5 - lol ok had to laugh some. Regenerate what? The guard that doesn't block anything effectively. They also regenerate very little and even if they regenerated a ton which they don't it still wouldn't be helpful.
6 - Regen is the only thing that any toon has going for self healing and everyone has regen. Its not a specific tank stat and GWF get more totally HP then a GF so regen works better on them since they can also deflect everything and are the best tanks in the game.
7 - Lets not forget that tanks can't even spec for tank because they won't get invited to any Dungeon and still aren't desirable or needed.
If a GF was a tank where are the Protector builds and Tacticians that are running CN? Oh that's right there are none. If there is one. Then there is one. Fact is we aren't tanks in this game and if we try to spec tank its not effective and won't get a invite no matter what. I think that leaves the word tank out of the picture for a GF since the Sentinel GWF is the real tank of this game.
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defectivepersonaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited July 2013
The biggest problems in PvP are **** gear vs optimized gear(excluding tenebrous stacking), and being unfamiliar with other classes.
People get gear rolled and blame the class because they:
1.) Do not want to farm.
2.) Do not know how to optimize gear and enchants.
3.) Don't want to spend money to compensate for their lack of skill(which rarely solves the skill issue).
People get outplayed because they:
1.) Don't understand other classes.
2.) Don't understand their class.
3.) Copy other people's successes and expect it to work for them.
4.) Generally unskilled no matter the class or gear.
To be fair, the only at-will that should drain stealth bar is CoS.
To be fair, the only at-will that should drain stealth bar is CoS.
nuff said, I do agree CoS from stealth is imba. Leave Sly Flourish and Duelist Flurry and Gloaming Cut alone.
Whap people do not realize is that prolonged stealth (not perma) is the main aspect of the saboteur tree, by messing with stealth you are ruining the saboteur tree completely as it is heavily reliant on stealth.
If you make CoS consume stealth, and change the way Intelect and Recovery interact with recharge speed an stealth itself, you can balance the game and put an end on perma stealth builds, without having to mess up with the prolonged stealth build within the saboteur tree.
Rogues once seen, tend to die really quick. A stealth rogue has always bait em switch, shadow strike and a third skill which is in most cases either lashing blade, ItC, or impact shot. If he chooses ItC looking forward to survive while out of stealth then he has no burst his dps is ****, if he chooses lashing blade, then he has 1 big dmg ability but gets totally squishy after that, if you choose impact shot, well its quite annoying but still has long animation and gets you exposed to get rolled by other people around you or even by the attacker itself. At-Wills are a joke in pvp with the exception of CoS.
Now you tell me you want to take stealth from me, because a minority used what some may call exploits to obtain advantage.
Me and many other people who follow Banelorne's Build or the Pure Saboteur's build will have their experience ruined, people who used legit game mechanics to extend their survivability through stealth, at the cost of most their dps. Also People who do not even pvp, who just like to run dungeons, they are getting their experience ruined as well.
All of this because of a minority!! all of this because people whine out here that their OCW (out of control wizard) or their Perma heal GWF can't face roll a squishy annoying rogue anymore.
I DARE ANYONE to stand against a OCW or perma heal GWF or even a stunlock from GF.
it is simply ludacris, ridiculous, a rogue is not overpowered, it is the overall game mechanics that determine how the rogue interacts with its enviroment. Some people took advantage of that.
I defend that perma stealth should end, because as stated by many of you it was not meant to exist. HOWEVER the SABOTEUR tree which relies in extended stealth and low dmg and crit rates should not have to be a victim of this, neither should be the PvErs.
FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM ITSELF instead of butchering the whole class.
You may like it or not but the trickster rogue was the first class designed for this game, everything else came after. Do not butcher it to pieces.
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Interesting that my opinion is the same of 1,000's of players and Cryptic feels the same and is making adjustments because of that.
So what you are saying is that there is at least 1,000 players that have no skill nor intelligence to counter the rogue class ? I couldn't agree with you more, thanks for clearing that up, that's probably the most truthful statement you have ever made...kudo's
See that wasn't so hard now was it ?
LMAO!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
1 - CC- 2 skills that leave you prone not over the top and dodgeable
Four, because we also have two great dailies that can knock people prone. Two are AoE, two are single target. All four are fantastic. My GF never dies to TR's in PvP because they're too busy being knocked across the area or slammed to the ground.
Edit: Ooops, five! Enforced Threat is also an AoE CC skill since it makes just about everyone attack us.
This would suggest to me that you never use those skills or haven't used a set like Knight Captains. We have fantastic party buffs and synergies, the people who hate on GF's and boot them out of groups clearly are as ignorant as the anti-TR ragers!
3 - Threat never was a issue. I don't even take any threat skills. The issue is the Aoe target cap that doesn't allow you to grab mobs effectively.
True, managing threat is easy. Cap on one AoE skill is three. Haven't noticed a cap on Terrifying Impact or Enforced Threat, they seem to bring in everyone.
4 - Has a shield that is supposed to work and block but doesn't since the mechanic needs to be redone. When it works right it block all incoming damage of a VERY small amount and breaks in 1-3 seconds which makes it completely ineffective in PvE and is not even close to as good as untouchable as a skill for tanking. So some huge Def buffs and a reworking of the blocking is needed.
Main issue I have found with it is when there is lag in blocking. It can block almost the entirety of a T1 boss breath attack, so that's pretty solid. When people use it properly, and most don't, it's very powerful and when managed well it lets us stay up longer than anyone else.
5 - lol ok had to laugh some. Regenerate what? The guard that doesn't block anything effectively. They also regenerate very little and even if they regenerated a ton which they don't it still wouldn't be helpful.
Haven't every really had to worry about this, it regenerates pretty well on its own.
6 - Regen is the only thing that any toon has going for self healing and everyone has regen. Its not a specific tank stat and GWF get more totally HP then a GF so regen works better on them since they can also deflect everything and are the best tanks in the game.
Fighter's Recovery is fantastic and given how quickly we're able to generate AP enables us to serve as very effective tanks in boss fights if the rogue gets caught in a red circle and killed.
If a GF was a tank where are the Protector builds and Tacticians that are running CN? Oh that's right there are none. If there is one. Then there is one. Fact is we aren't tanks in this game and if we try to spec tank its not effective and won't get a invite no matter what. I think that leaves the word tank out of the picture for a GF since the Sentinel GWF is the real tank of this game.
GF's are completely tanks, and they can be very versatile tanks. The most effective spec for most players is Conqueror, which is still tanky enough for most content. For CN you need to have a group who aren't ignorant about how useful and effective a GF can be when well played.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
So what you are saying is that there is at least 1,000 players that have no skill nor intelligence to counter the rogue class ? I couldn't agree with you more, thanks for clearing that up, that's probably the most truthful statement you have ever made...kudo's
See that wasn't so hard now was it ?
LMAO!
what i find amazing is that he has a pretty round number. He keeps spouting he has 1000 people covering his back to try to validate his point....but what are the odds of exact 1000 people agree with him? I mean that precise number, because he keeps kicking that number in when its time to count his helpers.
Was there some sort of pool around where 1000 people agreed to what he says? Or is he just tossing numbers with no backing to them? I would like to see that source from where he pulls his statistics.
Could it be though, that he plans on making 1000 alt accounts and come post with every single one of them on forum, thus why he is so sure of the number, but being honest i never saw more than around 20 or 30 people agreeing to the nerfs on the threads that arrived (i am too kicking in a guess number because i never stopped to actually count, but it was always a proportion of 1 person complaining to other 2+ proving him/her wrong on topics that ranged 10 to 15 pages (and lets consider the same person posting more than once on a single topic)), so i am surprised that he managed to find exactly 1000 followers, not counting repeat posters because the number of people crying for nerf never seemed that big to me and usually spouted things that any person with a bit of common sense could counter or nulify (and after this was done, said poster (save for some few exceptions) would retreat and stop replying after 3 attempts and being bashed out by actual good players).
They live to try and shut down any post that holds truth about the OP nature of the class.
One shotting from stealth was fine.
Permanent stealth was fine.
The list goes on and on. They make me laugh.
More than once it was proved that the one shotting you cry so much about isnt really the rogue being op, but his enchants being OP. Anyone with the right enchants can oneshot. Even your master there ADMITTED that with his GF (a tank class regardless of how much he disagrees with the statement) he scored 28k on a crit....now whats the top hp of this game? lets try 40k yes? (could be more, if anyone beat the mark point it out for a better basis) With those 28k crit damage he removed 3/4 of someone's health points in ONE critical hit, and he hopes to beat the mark (I wont enter on whats there for other advantages/disadvantages, lets stick purelly to damage since you wanna play this game)
And then look at what he announced to have for gear (thats is if he really has that), its right there for anyone to see, gear will make you 1 shot with ANY class.
When you put a rogue with zero enchants (even with perma) and a gwf, or GF with zero enchants to face each other, you will see if the class really is OP or not. That should be the basis for nerf, and not just get the best performance of the class with the ubber enchants to measure if its op or not.
Fixing the enchants would solve 99% of the one shot kill problems and make the game go back to skill, but when any class is within 1 hit from nearly wiping the enemy from the face of the arena BECAUSE OF THE ENCHANTS, then you can see where the problem lies.
But why am i trying? you probably wont read anything i typed and troll around, so do as you please, but your point on forum, along with abom's is the same as nothing, because it lacks something called...whats was it again?....oh thats right, insight. You guys focus on the superficial and never get to the core of the problem, and the core isnt the class balancing (although this could be worked too), but the enchantments being too strong and players capable of piling them up.
as for the perma stealth comment, it was perfectly counterable. But then again, some people rather dodge the challenge rather than learn to counter it, so why bother explaining i to you.
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
Dude really no need to write long posts. It really is a lrn2play issue.
A troll will troll, it's ok you don't need to have "insight" because that would take "intelligence" and based on you're simple minded statements, you lack needed "substance".
But I am here to tell you that "simple mindedness" is ok, some day when you finally grow-up you will realize that and when you do, good luck to you ! :P
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Ummm, perma stealth will still be possible. They just won't be able to attack, and I foresee it still being used to cap flag points.
Also, one shotting will still be possible if you all consider taking 50-75% hp to be a "oneshot". My TR is pretty well geared and I very rarely have taken a cw from 100% to zero in one shot. They ALWAYS had some hp missing before I would LB and kill them.
The rogue adjustments were needed for PvE just as much as PvP in my opinion. You don't have to like my opinion but I would like to see some balance for this MMO and for PvE and content now and hope its established for when we get more content and end game content.
Well, that's the thing. Class balance is important. It will greatly annoy me if these changes ruin my stealth TR, that I only used for solo PvM so didn't negatively impact anyone else, but if the game is ultimately the better for it than the loss won't sting as much. We shall see how it plays out, when the final revisions are determined and implemented online.
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
More than once it was proved that the one shotting you cry so much about isnt really the rogue being op, but his enchants being OP. Anyone with the right enchants can oneshot. Even your master there ADMITTED that with his GF (a tank class regardless of how much he disagrees with the statement) he scored 28k on a crit....now whats the top hp of this game? lets try 40k yes? (could be more, if anyone beat the mark point it out for a better basis) With those 28k crit damage he removed 3/4 of someone's health points in ONE critical hit, and he hopes to beat the mark (I wont enter on whats there for other advantages/disadvantages, lets stick purelly to damage since you wanna play this game)
And then look at what he announced to have for gear (thats is if he really has that), its right there for anyone to see, gear will make you 1 shot with ANY class.
When you put a rogue with zero enchants (even with perma) and a gwf, or GF with zero enchants to face each other, you will see if the class really is OP or not. That should be the basis for nerf, and not just get the best performance of the class with the ubber enchants to measure if its op or not.
Fixing the enchants would solve 99% of the one shot kill problems and make the game go back to skill, but when any class is within 1 hit from nearly wiping the enemy from the face of the arena BECAUSE OF THE ENCHANTS, then you can see where the problem lies.
But why am i trying? you probably wont read anything i typed and troll around, so do as you please, but your point on forum, along with abom's is the same as nothing, because it lacks something called...whats was it again?....oh thats right, insight. You guys focus on the superficial and never get to the core of the problem, and the core isnt the class balancing (although this could be worked too), but the enchantments being too strong and players capable of piling them up.
as for the perma stealth comment, it was perfectly counterable. But then again, some people rather dodge the challenge rather than learn to counter it, so why bother explaining i to you.
Cryptic is well known to put the cart before the horse. They did it in STO and again here. It really goes to show that Cryptic as a developer lacks foresight, pretty sad for a developer and they add things in game that completely mess up core mechanics to make a buck for their parent company Perfect World.
I really should have seen this coming and I am not talking about the nerfs, I am speaking of the knowledge that a developer needs to have to have to make a great game!
I really don't blame the individuals that cried on the forums and stated "ROGUES ARE OP, FIX THEM"
Gone are the days when you actually learned game mechanics because you wanted to be good at it. When you ran into a obstacle, in this case figuring out a way to counter a certain class in a game or finding out the root of the real problem. It's so much easier to just whine and complain without knowing the real issue or in this case issues and cry wolf.
That of course would take too much time and effort as well as skill to do....
Everyone wants the easy mode, so much for gaming as we once knew it!
You can't create a class that depends on stealth and then weaken it to the extent it makes the class broke, gimped, whatever you want to call it because of outside influences in this case enchants of varying degrees without adding something back in, in this case a class feature.
There is no way any class at level 60 in this game wearing green gear, having no enchantments can compete against someone at the same level decked out in T2 gear that has full sets of enchantments including Vorpals and can expect to win or be 1-shotted especially if they don't have a clue how to detect a rogue that uses its core feature "stealth" to it's advantage.
Based on the dev's solution to the issue, you have to ask yourself, do they even have a clue ?
In my opinion, no not the slightest !
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
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preternatural1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
Are you a fan of mine and following me I am honored.
rebreak down what you said
1 - CC- 2 skills that leave you prone not over the top and dodgeable
2 - Not really minor at best
3 - Threat never was a issue. I don't even take any threat skills. The issue is the Aoe target cap that doesn't allow you to grab mobs effectively.
4 - Has a shield that is supposed to work and block but doesn't since the mechanic needs to be redone. When it works right it block all incoming damage of a VERY small amount and breaks in 1-3 seconds which makes it completely ineffective in PvE and is not even close to as good as untouchable as a skill for tanking. So some huge Def buffs and a reworking of the blocking is needed.
5 - lol ok had to laugh some. Regenerate what? The guard that doesn't block anything effectively. They also regenerate very little and even if they regenerated a ton which they don't it still wouldn't be helpful.
6 - Regen is the only thing that any toon has going for self healing and everyone has regen. Its not a specific tank stat and GWF get more totally HP then a GF so regen works better on them since they can also deflect everything and are the best tanks in the game.
7 - Lets not forget that tanks can't even spec for tank because they won't get invited to any Dungeon and still aren't desirable or needed.
If a GF was a tank where are the Protector builds and Tacticians that are running CN? Oh that's right there are none. If there is one. Then there is one. Fact is we aren't tanks in this game and if we try to spec tank its not effective and won't get a invite no matter what. I think that leaves the word tank out of the picture for a GF since the Sentinel GWF is the real tank of this game.
I understand this dudes' a big-time troll, but I *HAD* to reply to this lazy *** reply to borgued3 calling out abom's troll ***... you seriously just made a LIST, saying that you have no clue whatsoever how to play your OWN class, yet you want to preach to Rogues about whats best for us. I actually DO play a GF; apparently better than you, which is sad. Go back under your bridge, you sad excuse for homosapiens (damned censure), and leave the serious discussion to people with the mental faculties to comprehend whats' being articulated, eh? F*cking trolls...
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preternatural1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
Four, because we also have two great dailies that can knock people prone. Two are AoE, two are single target. All four are fantastic. My GF never dies to TR's in PvP because they're too busy being knocked across the area or slammed to the ground.
Edit: Ooops, five! Enforced Threat is also an AoE CC skill since it makes just about everyone attack us.
This would suggest to me that you never use those skills or haven't used a set like Knight Captains. We have fantastic party buffs and synergies, the people who hate on GF's and boot them out of groups clearly are as ignorant as the anti-TR ragers!
True, managing threat is easy. Cap on one AoE skill is three. Haven't noticed a cap on Terrifying Impact or Enforced Threat, they seem to bring in everyone.
Main issue I have found with it is when there is lag in blocking. It can block almost the entirety of a T1 boss breath attack, so that's pretty solid. When people use it properly, and most don't, it's very powerful and when managed well it lets us stay up longer than anyone else.
Haven't every really had to worry about this, it regenerates pretty well on its own.
Fighter's Recovery is fantastic and given how quickly we're able to generate AP enables us to serve as very effective tanks in boss fights if the rogue gets caught in a red circle and killed.
Doesn't actually matter, since ignorant folks in the game fight very hard to stay that way.
GF's are completely tanks, and they can be very versatile tanks. The most effective spec for most players is Conqueror, which is still tanky enough for most content. For CN you need to have a group who aren't ignorant about how useful and effective a GF can be when well played.
I just wanted to give this skilled GF, who knows his class, and knows HOW TO *TANK* props; and a bump... though I ended up cutting off the top half of his post... sorry about that, Rabbinicus.
6: because a small % of in ungeared, who hardly pvp and just do it for the dailies, hated being 1 shotted by rogues, and play CW's QQed saying they needed a nerf.
They bowed to a very small % of people without bothering to change anything else or even bother to make sure the change didn't affect pve like it will do for everybody.
Lazy coding is just lazy.
6: because a small % of in ungeared, who hardly pvp and just do it for the dailies, hated being 1 shotted by rogues, and play CW's QQed saying they needed a nerf.
They bowed to a very small % of people without bothering to change anything else or even bother to make sure the change didn't affect pve like it will do for everybody.
Lazy coding is just lazy.
I notice you rogues always point out cws as the complainers yet ive never seen one rogue say they got nerfed too hard. They reason you mention CWs is that u know they are an easy kill now. You tell them and DCs to lrn2play.
I really should have seen this coming and I am not talking about the nerfs, I am speaking of the knowledge that a developer needs to have to have to make a great game!
Based on the dev's solution to the issue, you have to ask yourself, do they even have a clue ?
In my opinion, no not the slightest !
Pre-60 everything seems fine, like a totally different, and BALANCED game. Then the enchantments come into play, stuck to ubergear, and suddenly the base skills need a nerf?
Oh yes, they have a clue... on how to get new players to give them their $$ in order to at least feel somewhat competitive.
Imo, the whole, only and single thing that makes any class OP are the enchants. But besides some stealthnerfs, they won't get touched as this will cost PWE their so sought after $$.
Mind you, I'm not against them making money, but it starts to feel a lot more like an elaborate scam than 'balancing'.
Well, that's the thing. Class balance is important. It will greatly annoy me if these changes ruin my stealth TR, that I only used for solo PvM so didn't negatively impact anyone else, but if the game is ultimately the better for it than the loss won't sting as much. We shall see how it plays out, when the final revisions are determined and implemented online.
Not so much, since class balance only matters in PvP scenarios or when one class is so overwhelmingly powerful/terrible that everyone/no one plays it. In the former scenario, it has been my experience that more than anything else PvP comes down to teamwork, communication, and playing well. While there are some massively geared players with BiS gear and rank 9/10 and perfect enchantments that they just shred other players with ease, all other things being equal PvP is a team sport. In the latter scenario, it would seem (anecdotally, I have not seen any actual statistics from Cryptic/PWE) that there is a balance of classes with no shortages of CW's, GWF's, and TR's and we could use more DC's and GF's.
From playing on the test server, it appears as though these changes significantly weaken TR's in PvE much more than in PvP.
I notice you rogues always point out cws as the complainers yet ive never seen one rogue say they got nerfed too hard. They reason you mention CWs is that u know they are an easy kill now. You tell them and DCs to lrn2play.
I think its time for you to lrn2play.
A CW or DC who doesn't use any form of CC and actively use their movement skill (slide/teleport) in PvP is not playing well or intelligently. This is magnified when a TR drops into stealth right in front of them and charges them. It's an easily defeated tactic by any experienced player. First, move in a random direction. Second, drop an AoE. Third, move again. If at this point the rogue is throwing daggers at you, most likely without moving, drop an AoE from where the daggers are coming from. Then move again.
An unskilled TR player is going to drop into stealth and either charge directly at the target or stand in place flinging daggers before charging. This makes them predictable, and easy to stop. Similarly, any ranged class who just stands and shoots is predictable easy to kill.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2013
Please use one of the existing allowed threads to provide feedback. We don't need, and the Devs don't need, multiple posts all over. Thanks!
Please free free to express one's opinions there-in, RoC abiding. The Devs are aware, the Mods know this for a fact as our Community Managers specifically asked us to help them find relevant feedback. Multiple threads on the topic do not help. If feedback is on Test-Server changes, please also use an existing thread, as there are also two others on similar TR topics, yet varied enough to warrant both. Thanks!
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From the community mod in stealth is now dead:
As this discussion continues please keep the Rules of Conduct in mind.
First and most importantly respect the opinions of others. Do not degrade another posters opinions because you do not agree with their opinion. Simply put treat others as you wish to be treated.
This includes calling any user a troll. Calling others trolls is trolling in and of itself.
Now since there seems to be confusion about what the word means to the Rules of Conduct:
No trolling, or flaming.
Any form of personal insult will not be tolerated. General rule of thumb: if you think that what you are about to post is insulting, don't post it. Unless a person is insulting or disrespecting another person's opinions they are not trolling.
I want you guys to express your opinions but you have to keep the thread civil.
Stop with the insults and accusations. Express your opinions and do not degrade the opinions of others.
In another thread. Can we stay on topic so this thread isn't closed either. I think that explains the rules and saying l2p isn't proper conduct either.
Dont believe me? read this (link: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?414611-Stealth-Build-Now-Dead&p=5286381#post5286381 ):
lets take note that guardian fighters have a considerable number of skills that:
1 -CC
2- buff people of his party
3- generate threat (i dont know why a dps class would want to be beaten)
4- has a shield to block all incoming damage untill it "breaks"
5- has a good number of at wills that regenerate his shield meter
6- has absurd self healing (regen and fighters recovery(thanks to ubber ap generation it is up almost all the time)) and damage soaking
7- and lets not forget that he has a cozy skill that prevents damage for all of his teammates and direct it to himself.
but abom on his own mind seem to think that for some reason the class with all of the above is not a tank, but rather a dps machine. He even thinks the game with boss fights filled with adds that will roll over your team dont need a tank (not like people get rolled by adds when they pile up on boss fights (assuming nobody is aggoring them)).
And abom, you go around being all "polite" and etc claiming rules, but you are by far the greatest troll around who just loves to stroll around rogue forums tossing missinformation, and the few things you get right such as ubber damage and etc that rogues can deal, ANY class can deal as long as they have their hands on ubber enchants, so as it was already stated to you, its not the class that is OP, but the enchants that need to be fixed.
Now when you prove me that a rogue with ZERO enchants on gear can pull out 30k+ in a crit lashing blade, then i will start believing you (hitting defenseless dummies dont count, you must land that damage on another player with equal gear and ZERO enchants)
Are you a fan of mine and following me
rebreak down what you said
1 - CC- 2 skills that leave you prone not over the top and dodgeable
2 - Not really minor at best
3 - Threat never was a issue. I don't even take any threat skills. The issue is the Aoe target cap that doesn't allow you to grab mobs effectively.
4 - Has a shield that is supposed to work and block but doesn't since the mechanic needs to be redone. When it works right it block all incoming damage of a VERY small amount and breaks in 1-3 seconds which makes it completely ineffective in PvE and is not even close to as good as untouchable as a skill for tanking. So some huge Def buffs and a reworking of the blocking is needed.
5 - lol ok had to laugh some. Regenerate what? The guard that doesn't block anything effectively. They also regenerate very little and even if they regenerated a ton which they don't it still wouldn't be helpful.
6 - Regen is the only thing that any toon has going for self healing and everyone has regen. Its not a specific tank stat and GWF get more totally HP then a GF so regen works better on them since they can also deflect everything and are the best tanks in the game.
7 - Lets not forget that tanks can't even spec for tank because they won't get invited to any Dungeon and still aren't desirable or needed.
If a GF was a tank where are the Protector builds and Tacticians that are running CN? Oh that's right there are none. If there is one. Then there is one. Fact is we aren't tanks in this game and if we try to spec tank its not effective and won't get a invite no matter what. I think that leaves the word tank out of the picture for a GF since the Sentinel GWF is the real tank of this game.
People get gear rolled and blame the class because they:
1.) Do not want to farm.
2.) Do not know how to optimize gear and enchants.
3.) Don't want to spend money to compensate for their lack of skill(which rarely solves the skill issue).
People get outplayed because they:
1.) Don't understand other classes.
2.) Don't understand their class.
3.) Copy other people's successes and expect it to work for them.
4.) Generally unskilled no matter the class or gear.
To be fair, the only at-will that should drain stealth bar is CoS.
nuff said, I do agree CoS from stealth is imba. Leave Sly Flourish and Duelist Flurry and Gloaming Cut alone.
Whap people do not realize is that prolonged stealth (not perma) is the main aspect of the saboteur tree, by messing with stealth you are ruining the saboteur tree completely as it is heavily reliant on stealth.
If you make CoS consume stealth, and change the way Intelect and Recovery interact with recharge speed an stealth itself, you can balance the game and put an end on perma stealth builds, without having to mess up with the prolonged stealth build within the saboteur tree.
Rogues once seen, tend to die really quick. A stealth rogue has always bait em switch, shadow strike and a third skill which is in most cases either lashing blade, ItC, or impact shot. If he chooses ItC looking forward to survive while out of stealth then he has no burst his dps is ****, if he chooses lashing blade, then he has 1 big dmg ability but gets totally squishy after that, if you choose impact shot, well its quite annoying but still has long animation and gets you exposed to get rolled by other people around you or even by the attacker itself. At-Wills are a joke in pvp with the exception of CoS.
Now you tell me you want to take stealth from me, because a minority used what some may call exploits to obtain advantage.
Me and many other people who follow Banelorne's Build or the Pure Saboteur's build will have their experience ruined, people who used legit game mechanics to extend their survivability through stealth, at the cost of most their dps. Also People who do not even pvp, who just like to run dungeons, they are getting their experience ruined as well.
All of this because of a minority!! all of this because people whine out here that their OCW (out of control wizard) or their Perma heal GWF can't face roll a squishy annoying rogue anymore.
I DARE ANYONE to stand against a OCW or perma heal GWF or even a stunlock from GF.
it is simply ludacris, ridiculous, a rogue is not overpowered, it is the overall game mechanics that determine how the rogue interacts with its enviroment. Some people took advantage of that.
I defend that perma stealth should end, because as stated by many of you it was not meant to exist. HOWEVER the SABOTEUR tree which relies in extended stealth and low dmg and crit rates should not have to be a victim of this, neither should be the PvErs.
FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM ITSELF instead of butchering the whole class.
You may like it or not but the trickster rogue was the first class designed for this game, everything else came after. Do not butcher it to pieces.
So what you are saying is that there is at least 1,000 players that have no skill nor intelligence to counter the rogue class ? I couldn't agree with you more, thanks for clearing that up, that's probably the most truthful statement you have ever made...kudo's
See that wasn't so hard now was it ?
LMAO!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Four, because we also have two great dailies that can knock people prone. Two are AoE, two are single target. All four are fantastic. My GF never dies to TR's in PvP because they're too busy being knocked across the area or slammed to the ground.
Edit: Ooops, five! Enforced Threat is also an AoE CC skill since it makes just about everyone attack us.
This would suggest to me that you never use those skills or haven't used a set like Knight Captains. We have fantastic party buffs and synergies, the people who hate on GF's and boot them out of groups clearly are as ignorant as the anti-TR ragers!
True, managing threat is easy. Cap on one AoE skill is three. Haven't noticed a cap on Terrifying Impact or Enforced Threat, they seem to bring in everyone.
Main issue I have found with it is when there is lag in blocking. It can block almost the entirety of a T1 boss breath attack, so that's pretty solid. When people use it properly, and most don't, it's very powerful and when managed well it lets us stay up longer than anyone else.
Haven't every really had to worry about this, it regenerates pretty well on its own.
Fighter's Recovery is fantastic and given how quickly we're able to generate AP enables us to serve as very effective tanks in boss fights if the rogue gets caught in a red circle and killed.
Doesn't actually matter, since ignorant folks in the game fight very hard to stay that way.
GF's are completely tanks, and they can be very versatile tanks. The most effective spec for most players is Conqueror, which is still tanky enough for most content. For CN you need to have a group who aren't ignorant about how useful and effective a GF can be when well played.
what i find amazing is that he has a pretty round number. He keeps spouting he has 1000 people covering his back to try to validate his point....but what are the odds of exact 1000 people agree with him? I mean that precise number, because he keeps kicking that number in when its time to count his helpers.
Was there some sort of pool around where 1000 people agreed to what he says? Or is he just tossing numbers with no backing to them? I would like to see that source from where he pulls his statistics.
Could it be though, that he plans on making 1000 alt accounts and come post with every single one of them on forum, thus why he is so sure of the number, but being honest i never saw more than around 20 or 30 people agreeing to the nerfs on the threads that arrived (i am too kicking in a guess number because i never stopped to actually count, but it was always a proportion of 1 person complaining to other 2+ proving him/her wrong on topics that ranged 10 to 15 pages (and lets consider the same person posting more than once on a single topic)), so i am surprised that he managed to find exactly 1000 followers, not counting repeat posters because the number of people crying for nerf never seemed that big to me and usually spouted things that any person with a bit of common sense could counter or nulify (and after this was done, said poster (save for some few exceptions) would retreat and stop replying after 3 attempts and being bashed out by actual good players).
They live to try and shut down any post that holds truth about the OP nature of the class.
One shotting from stealth was fine.
Permanent stealth was fine.
The list goes on and on. They make me laugh.
More than once it was proved that the one shotting you cry so much about isnt really the rogue being op, but his enchants being OP. Anyone with the right enchants can oneshot. Even your master there ADMITTED that with his GF (a tank class regardless of how much he disagrees with the statement) he scored 28k on a crit....now whats the top hp of this game? lets try 40k yes? (could be more, if anyone beat the mark point it out for a better basis) With those 28k crit damage he removed 3/4 of someone's health points in ONE critical hit, and he hopes to beat the mark (I wont enter on whats there for other advantages/disadvantages, lets stick purelly to damage since you wanna play this game)
And then look at what he announced to have for gear (thats is if he really has that), its right there for anyone to see, gear will make you 1 shot with ANY class.
When you put a rogue with zero enchants (even with perma) and a gwf, or GF with zero enchants to face each other, you will see if the class really is OP or not. That should be the basis for nerf, and not just get the best performance of the class with the ubber enchants to measure if its op or not.
Fixing the enchants would solve 99% of the one shot kill problems and make the game go back to skill, but when any class is within 1 hit from nearly wiping the enemy from the face of the arena BECAUSE OF THE ENCHANTS, then you can see where the problem lies.
But why am i trying? you probably wont read anything i typed and troll around, so do as you please, but your point on forum, along with abom's is the same as nothing, because it lacks something called...whats was it again?....oh thats right, insight. You guys focus on the superficial and never get to the core of the problem, and the core isnt the class balancing (although this could be worked too), but the enchantments being too strong and players capable of piling them up.
as for the perma stealth comment, it was perfectly counterable. But then again, some people rather dodge the challenge rather than learn to counter it, so why bother explaining i to you.
agreed, you nerf callers really should l2p, but in your case its L2P and L2read
A troll will troll, it's ok you don't need to have "insight" because that would take "intelligence" and based on you're simple minded statements, you lack needed "substance".
But I am here to tell you that "simple mindedness" is ok, some day when you finally grow-up you will realize that and when you do, good luck to you ! :P
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Also, one shotting will still be possible if you all consider taking 50-75% hp to be a "oneshot". My TR is pretty well geared and I very rarely have taken a cw from 100% to zero in one shot. They ALWAYS had some hp missing before I would LB and kill them.
Well, that's the thing. Class balance is important. It will greatly annoy me if these changes ruin my stealth TR, that I only used for solo PvM so didn't negatively impact anyone else, but if the game is ultimately the better for it than the loss won't sting as much. We shall see how it plays out, when the final revisions are determined and implemented online.
Cryptic is well known to put the cart before the horse. They did it in STO and again here. It really goes to show that Cryptic as a developer lacks foresight, pretty sad for a developer and they add things in game that completely mess up core mechanics to make a buck for their parent company Perfect World.
I really should have seen this coming and I am not talking about the nerfs, I am speaking of the knowledge that a developer needs to have to have to make a great game!
I really don't blame the individuals that cried on the forums and stated "ROGUES ARE OP, FIX THEM"
Gone are the days when you actually learned game mechanics because you wanted to be good at it. When you ran into a obstacle, in this case figuring out a way to counter a certain class in a game or finding out the root of the real problem. It's so much easier to just whine and complain without knowing the real issue or in this case issues and cry wolf.
That of course would take too much time and effort as well as skill to do....
Everyone wants the easy mode, so much for gaming as we once knew it!
You can't create a class that depends on stealth and then weaken it to the extent it makes the class broke, gimped, whatever you want to call it because of outside influences in this case enchants of varying degrees without adding something back in, in this case a class feature.
There is no way any class at level 60 in this game wearing green gear, having no enchantments can compete against someone at the same level decked out in T2 gear that has full sets of enchantments including Vorpals and can expect to win or be 1-shotted especially if they don't have a clue how to detect a rogue that uses its core feature "stealth" to it's advantage.
Based on the dev's solution to the issue, you have to ask yourself, do they even have a clue ?
In my opinion, no not the slightest !
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
I understand this dudes' a big-time troll, but I *HAD* to reply to this lazy *** reply to borgued3 calling out abom's troll ***... you seriously just made a LIST, saying that you have no clue whatsoever how to play your OWN class, yet you want to preach to Rogues about whats best for us. I actually DO play a GF; apparently better than you, which is sad. Go back under your bridge, you sad excuse for homosapiens (damned censure), and leave the serious discussion to people with the mental faculties to comprehend whats' being articulated, eh? F*cking trolls...
I just wanted to give this skilled GF, who knows his class, and knows HOW TO *TANK* props; and a bump... though I ended up cutting off the top half of his post... sorry about that, Rabbinicus.
They bowed to a very small % of people without bothering to change anything else or even bother to make sure the change didn't affect pve like it will do for everybody.
Lazy coding is just lazy.
Are you saying GWFs are not cc'able?
I notice you rogues always point out cws as the complainers yet ive never seen one rogue say they got nerfed too hard. They reason you mention CWs is that u know they are an easy kill now. You tell them and DCs to lrn2play.
I think its time for you to lrn2play.
Pre-60 everything seems fine, like a totally different, and BALANCED game. Then the enchantments come into play, stuck to ubergear, and suddenly the base skills need a nerf?
Oh yes, they have a clue... on how to get new players to give them their $$ in order to at least feel somewhat competitive.
Imo, the whole, only and single thing that makes any class OP are the enchants. But besides some stealthnerfs, they won't get touched as this will cost PWE their so sought after $$.
Mind you, I'm not against them making money, but it starts to feel a lot more like an elaborate scam than 'balancing'.
Not so much, since class balance only matters in PvP scenarios or when one class is so overwhelmingly powerful/terrible that everyone/no one plays it. In the former scenario, it has been my experience that more than anything else PvP comes down to teamwork, communication, and playing well. While there are some massively geared players with BiS gear and rank 9/10 and perfect enchantments that they just shred other players with ease, all other things being equal PvP is a team sport. In the latter scenario, it would seem (anecdotally, I have not seen any actual statistics from Cryptic/PWE) that there is a balance of classes with no shortages of CW's, GWF's, and TR's and we could use more DC's and GF's.
From playing on the test server, it appears as though these changes significantly weaken TR's in PvE much more than in PvP.
That's one of the benefits of using unstoppable.
A CW or DC who doesn't use any form of CC and actively use their movement skill (slide/teleport) in PvP is not playing well or intelligently. This is magnified when a TR drops into stealth right in front of them and charges them. It's an easily defeated tactic by any experienced player. First, move in a random direction. Second, drop an AoE. Third, move again. If at this point the rogue is throwing daggers at you, most likely without moving, drop an AoE from where the daggers are coming from. Then move again.
An unskilled TR player is going to drop into stealth and either charge directly at the target or stand in place flinging daggers before charging. This makes them predictable, and easy to stop. Similarly, any ranged class who just stands and shoots is predictable easy to kill.
The two we are currently allowing/merging/directing to are:
(live shard discussions)
New Changes to Rogue.
Stealth Build Now Dead....
Please free free to express one's opinions there-in, RoC abiding. The Devs are aware, the Mods know this for a fact as our Community Managers specifically asked us to help them find relevant feedback. Multiple threads on the topic do not help. If feedback is on Test-Server changes, please also use an existing thread, as there are also two others on similar TR topics, yet varied enough to warrant both. Thanks!
(test shard discussions)
Rouge nerfs need to be nerfed
Good suggestions to the TR nerf instead of raging.
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