Also, changing the game every 7 days is ridiculous. It says to me that you really don't spend much time at all considering your changes, you simply implement some stuff, put it on a test server, and say its going to go live in 2 days without caring about feedback. If you cared about feedback, 27 pages of "WTF Rogue Nerf" would have made you reconsider.
TR's tears... they are so sweet.
Permastealth was OP and get nerfed. Lurker nerf, as for me, wasn't necessary, it's enough of at-will in stealth nerf to destroy permastealth build.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
.... you're kidding, right? we run a GWF in spell / CN ALL the time O_o
So... you are doing charity or it is because avatar of war helm is really expensive since no ones brings GWF to spellplague...
Because it is way faster and safer Spellplague (or any other dungeons with lots of holes) with 2 CW than with 1 CW + 1 GWF...
I have a fixed party and they dont let me go with my GWF in spellplague because it would take longer, so I have to play with CW there (we have another CW and we could clear with my GWF, but once he cant compete in 1v1 dmg against a TR there is no use, but if they nerf TR dmg it would be better having a GWF + CW than 2 CWs).
Ok, The nerf on LA duration is too much... (imo, that no one cares, it should be 5/10/15% more dmg and 10 seconds)
They will implement these whether people want them or not...what a horrible company. Boom! here are your patch notes - enjoy while we offer no explanation as to why we made these changes.
Ok, The nerf on LA duration is too much... (imo, that no one cares, it should be 5/10/15% more dmg and 10 seconds)
next time read the patch notes properly , its gone from 20%/40 %/60 % damage buff to 5/10/15% crit severity buff and about 4-5 seconds less duration on it. overall damage buff and crit severity buff is a huge differance.
I'm starting to think that the rogue nerf effects on PVE are really to make GWF and GF more viable in CN.
it will since rogues will be basically non existent if the patch is implemented , so its not really a matter of making them more viable,more like most rogues will stop playing them, .or wont be able to get in a group unless there fully geared.
nuff said. please listen to the feedback
u are totally overkilling rogues and not touching GWFs? this has nothing to do with pvp balance whatsoever
additionally lurkers assault is the only useful daily and the most fun thing to use in dungeons. dont trash it completly please
i wont stop playing TR no matter what happens. but i feel bad for all the rogues without real good gear (>95%) its gonna be impossible for them to even find a dungeon group
imho u are unbalancing this game even more and big time nerfing the fun factor in pve.
next time read the patch notes properly , its gone from 20%/40 %/60 % damage buff to 5/10/15% crit severity buff and about 4-5 seconds less duration on it. overall damage buff and crit severity buff is a huge differance.
I know that I said It should be 15% dmg buff instead of 15% CS...
Goodbye Neverwinter. You looked nice when i started a month ago, now i delete acc and uninstall. GG
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lrdthorrenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited July 2013
All I have to say is WoW you really put an extreme Nerf bat to the TR's, just tested the changes with my TR. Just an FYI my TR was not a perma-stealth build nor was it geared out with all Greater Tens.
1) At-Wills take a huge chunk of the stealth meter, couldn't even get through a full duelist flurry before the stealth meter was up also tried it with Cloud of Steel, still had charges left when stealth meter expired due to use.
2) Even with Lurker Assault the amount of At-Wills uses of the stealth meter far out-weighed any stealth gained by Lurker Assault also notice once your stealth meter was gone your Lurker Assault daily expired. If this wasn't the cast then they really nerfed the time to be in Lurker Assault.
Unfortunately this nerf seriously hurts TR's in PvE just as much in PvP, personally I only did PvP as part of my dailies as honestly PvP is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and boring. If your going to seriously nerf this much to a TR you should at least increase our at-wills damage out put, or change Lurk Assault back to doing extra damage instead of Crit. I don't even see a Crit build TR being viable the amount of loss of damage is really to much to recover from.
So as I see it, I'll still nearly be one shotted by a CW's Ice Knife, anybody will a full set of Tens will still be OP and the complaining about PvP will just move to another class. If you think that this will solve everything it won't all that will happen is some other class will now be next on the target list. One you start down the nerf path it will only keep circling like a buzzard over a carcass it doesn't stop till they ruin the game.
Your not fixing the exploits only try to band-aid them, so those that exploited all the dungeons are still rewarded while the rest are punished. You want people to fully do the dungeons then the rewards need to meet the risk involved, the end chest should reward you due to your effort not the exploit. The more mobs you kill in a dungeon the better the reward is at the end chest, you skip everything and only kill the bosses the chest should not reward you with end game gear. Unfortunately this is what happens when you put Devs in that can't think outside the box and are stuck in the same mentality of all other MMORPGs. When I use to be a DM players got reward based on their actions, mobs they killed etc..., did a good job got good lot.
The main problem with this game is the total lack of cryptic/pwe's coding ability. As a coder myself i was impressed with nwn and nwn2's ability to so closely resemble PNP d&d, and in case anyone wants to know, Pen And Paper D&D is perfectly balanced.
the fact that cryptic tried to gleam enough of PNP D&D to attract a fanbase, while simplifying the core mechanic enough for their 2nd rate (probably 3rd rate) coders to actually implement, is the main problem. And that leads us to PWE's upper management not wanting to shell out enough cash to actually hire competent coders. If they would have just followed the core rule-set laid down in black and white, which have been refined since 1979 . this game would be perfect. Instead we have a half-dnd half-idunnowtfitis game that needs as much refinement as pen and paper dnd did in 79.........
Exactly what I expected - 29 pages of crying TR's.
Maybe someone has some valuable info about other changes?
On the other hand I don't like making everything in this game BoP - it's like saying you have to buy zen. Even items for seals and glory are now BoP - what's the point of collecting seals?
I understand there were issues with rogues being powerbuilt to be able to achieve perma-stealth and things like that. But honestly, as an 'average' player like a LOT of people who doesn't engage in much pvp, and hasn't crazily optimised my char, just plays PVE averagely for fun .... this is really <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. TR are already extremely challenging for the more average gamers like myself - the PVPers are the most vocal whenever an issue is found in a powerbuilding method and so on, but to make things 10 x more difficult for those who don't even pvp when things were already challenging, is really not positive..
I actually enjoyed that in NW, unlike the other DnD/FR rpg games out there, rogues were actually -useful- in parties for their very specialised ability to target a single foe. They are NOT some super easy class to play, get out there in PVM as an average player with an average build, and you'll find that going up against swarms of enemies is really hard with a TR, as it should be, and thus partying up is of benefit.. but it was so rewarding to know that TRs were valuable in killing bosses, where the other melee chars focused on kill #s, TRs had their 'strength' in 1 on 1 damage and stealth played a major role in that.
Shocking execution was very overpowered. I'm glad that was toned down BUT i would prefer it was replaced with another feat as it's now literally less useful than lashing blade which is an encounter power... yet it's a daily.. i would not call that 'balanced' and I think it would be more interesting if another daily was introduced in its place for some variety.
Hurting stealth isn't really going to fix the problem pvpers have with powerbuilt rogues, the people who tweak the builds and numbers are going to continue to find ways to pulverise other chars in pvp... while the rest of us meager little pvmers who aren't usually nearly as vocal on the forums, meanwhile have to struggle through with nerfed chars when things are already tricky enough ... and we don't even get the added benefit anymore of being on par with the other melee classes (at least not from my experience).
I wish some of these changes would be SPECIFICALLY implemented for PVP rather than making gameplay less fun for everyone.
Holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Seriously though, people should just switch to GWF. We don't get nerfed and are insanely strong. With the right equipment and feats, we are unkillable. Try it out.
lmao! can no one see the irony in all the posts like this?
I was trying to explain these proposed (hopefully still... plz) changes to the rogue class to my girlfriend. She plays a rogue (as do I) and is around level 28. I explained how the "stealth mode" that I've finally taught her to use, so she stops getting worked by the bosses, won't last as long and it won't give her the bonuses she got before, she said "wait, isn't that about all we can do anyways? that sucks." She is decidedly *not* a gamer, I am lucky to get her to play a game with me 2x a month.
And I will not even be able to buy her new gear with all the seals I have, without it binding to me, how much fun for her...
and before you start with your stupid whiny baby voice, unintelligible rambles about permastealth this or that, no it's not a perma stealth build at all.... not even close.
Oh wait I know you answers already... I'll tell her she now has to play as an anime character who carries a sword large enough for the jolly green giant to use to be effective huh?
Lol that is plain wrong. On d&d rogues always do tons of dmg.
False. Rogue damage output has varied substantially by edition. Rogues have always had the potential for a very high single-hit damage... when backstabbing someone.
Take the rogue out of the shadows and they do less damage. Dealing consistent high damage - high damage for more than a single hit, and especially high damage while soloing an opponent - is not a traditional feature of rogues in D&D.
With sneak attack dmg, a rogue will always out dmg a fighter of similar lvl/gear. Sure your fighters war hammer does 1d12, but my rogue does 1d4+3d6 dmg with his dagger.
Even in 4th edition, where the rogue has become a dedicated damage output machine, the rogue:
1. Relies on combat advantage for bonus damage.
2. Only applies that bonus damage once per turn.
There's also a substantial flat bonus involved. Basically, the fighter does 1d12+(flat bonus)+STR bonus; the rogue does 1d4+(flat bonus)+STR bonus with sneak damage thrown in. And then there are a number of powers that deal 2[W], 3[W], etc damage, where using a d12 weapon is amplified. Etc. Not nearly that large of a gap.
Rogues having permanent invisibility and immunity to damage is... novel. Attacking broke you out of rogue stealth abilities in 1st edition, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, and 4th edition. Stealth was not invisibility, untargetability, and did not confer immunity to AOEs and other attacks. (In 3rd edition, rogues picked up evasion, but this didn't rely on stealth to function.)
In 2nd edition, rogues ultimately had one good attack every once in a long while, because backstab damage required the target being unaware of your presence. It could be a very high spike of damage, but you got it once.
In 3rd edition (and 4th), rogues relied on flanking more than stealth. They could have very nice damage output, but usually only reliably (rather than just on a first hit) with someone else supplying combat advantage for them.
Up through 3rd edition, in fact, rogues were primarily skill monkeys rather than combat monsters. The permastealth rogue attacking through stealth without ending stealth? That's not very D&D at all.
Foundry Quest: Breaking the Chain NW-DELOGH4IH
(Daily eligible! Could use more reviews. Largely complete.)
Then why do ppl still hate bringing GWF to dungeons? Are you sick of that too?
Actually, I wouldn't know if people are doing that or not, as I do not play one. The reasons behind it are probably about the same as the reasons for hating on rogues, I would imagine.
I spend enough time waiting to get into dungeons myself, only to be told I suck or, more likely, have everyone leave after failing the boss fight once.
All the dps meter is doing is drawing attention to the obvious unbalance in this situation.. By saying don't look at them again only highlights that everyone is already aware TR is not balanced and would prefer if ppl just turned a blind eye to it...
And if your ran a dungeon with me you would know I DONT just dps the trash mobs.. I dps ALL the mobs together. All im doing is drawing attention to the fact that TR is outrageously OP and unbalanced. And having so many replies about this just shows its true... People don't want to lose the extra advantages they have with a TR... but lets be real.. neverwinter must be balanced correctly for the future of the game and right now TR is the most unbalanced class. The Devs are looking to add more content.. more classes and the current TR would disrupt most of that. there could never be a successful melee dps class added with the TR the way it is. Never. And everyone is just bashing before they see the actual nerf results... it probably isn't as bad as everyone is saying.. TR will still be the highest single dps class in the game.. but for once it might actually be a challenge like the rest of us
If this is all about the damage meter display.....
Rogues used to get the most damage consistently. But from my experience, my own rogue usually always got 1 or 2 in damage and CONSISTENTLY last in # of kills.
Rogues were truly balanced well to do damage to a SINGLE foe. (This might explain why the PVPers whined about them! Thus a need to separate PVP issues from PVE... a single target focused damage dealer is obviously going to wipe out one at a time easier in pvp than other classes..)
It was already a challenge to play them anyone who thinks otherwise either hasn't played one, or they are a pvp nut who is also epic at playing any other class because they're just a super duper gamer in general. Each class I found, previously had their strengths and their 'niche' in combat. The TR has now lost theirs, it bothers me even just as someone who isn't usually that picky about combat, because it was a lot of fun before while still being challenging... Other classes would always get the highest # of kills, usually GWF or CW and from time to time even the GFs. The damage dealt doesn't necessarily reflect how easy a class is to play, OR that it is overpowered, especially when you consider that damage can only be effectively focused on one target and is (or was) vital for boss killing where rogues will now be extremely less useful.
I'll work for zen/charity as a mathematical analyst on game design, cryptic. You obviously need someone with at least a shred of mathematical intuition and rigour to provide advice and screen values seeing as you made so many talent trees relatively useless from the start where it should have been obvious that they would be by doing some high school level calculations, not to mention the massive discrepancy in usefulness between set bonuses from gear that has equal drop chance.
Was it intented that Swashbuckler should be way way way better than all other dungeon obtainable T2 pve gear? Was getting 15000 extra power as a guardian fighter from the set bonus of a T1 Set in Conjunction with a Conqueror build even thought about? It would have been the simplest math there is, and I have difficulty imagining how it could be overlooked.
There are many weak links on your design team, Cryptic. You should fire them or hire overseers with the ability to see wider implications to oversee and tweak their work.
This is a travesty and the main problem is incompetence by some that is not kept in check by the more competent employees or more rigorous in-company guidelines on methods/processes to check the wider implications of the values one considers implementing.
~
Personally, I think Rogue single target dps needed a reduction (My only level 60 is a rogue, and I have full experience of the game with it).
The reason for this is that Double Rogue should not be more attractive than Rogue + GF/GWF(Destroyer with 5 sent for debuff. sentinels can stick to tenebrous abusing in pvp with their dismal pve dps and kill anyone who isn't a competent kiter). Party diversification should at minimum not be something that is undesirable.
Currently, the best balance between reliability and speed in Castle Never is had by running 2 Rogues, 2 CWs, 1 Cleric, and that's just not right.
Nerfing Lurker's Assault is a step in the right direction to achieve higher class diversification desirability, but the new effect chosen and its value goes too far even disregarding the stealth nerf if one does just a tiny bit of math. It turned a 60% damage buff into somewhere in the area of 5%. The damage buff wasn't all there is to Lurker's Assault. Stealth in itself gives a lot of bonuses assuming non-scoundrel.
However, stealth itself is in this patch reduced to below the point of practicality and game enjoyment. Before the coming patch, you can plan your skills some 15-40 seconds ahead to achieve the optimal use of skills and cooldown in conjunction with stealth. When At-Wills reduce stealth, this is mostly dead in the form that it was, and the new form that is looks not very fun and mentally stimulating. Stealth being reduced to "Oh I can stealth and weave in some fly flourishes and a lashing blade or wicked reminder and then resume flurry refreshing from out of stealth afterwards".
I could have lived with the Lurker's Assault nerf, even though it was much more than was needed to make group diversity more desirable, but the stealth nerf is either badly thought through, or the development team has a very different idea of how the rogue class should feel than the vast majority of those who play it.
In either way, get it together and police your colleagues, you people at cryptic who know you're smarter than the rest and understand more than the rest. Don't let their incompetence ruin your source of income and tarnish your career by besmudging you with the dishonor of being a former cryptic employee when cryptic failed their game so terribly.
PS: What the is deflection about, currently? Why have a version of defense whose average reduction and reliability is worse than defense on even the only class that has high deflect severity? A person straight out of elementary school could look at those numbers and understand this.
Excuse my tone, but it's almost hard to fathom how the many very easily fixable aspects of the game are still as they were, and new mistakes of ridiculous proportions are being made now with nerfing stealth. Something needs to change internally inside Cryptic in regards to procedure, staff and design team structure, and you all have a responsibility and investment in pushing hard for them, as the fallout of failure will besmirch your CV for the rest of your life.
That Lurker's assault nerf (and at will stealth-depletion) is far too significant and I hope after thorough testing/feedback that it doesn't make it to live. Our class is already hurting as is from the fix to Duelist's.
i Agree completely they already made shocking execution almost a useless daily without lurkers there is no good tr daily left also df was nerfed and in dnd rogues are damage dealers they are suppose to do a lot of damage what do you think sneak attack is for in which case this game does not have whatsoever not only that gf are far more op in pvp they can perma knock you down and kill you before you even can do anything gf need a nerf more then tr and even then a good gf can block almost all attacks in pvp with the shield if this nerf goes live i will quit along with my guild they are completely ruining tr because of people constant qq'ing next there gonna have to nerf the dungeons to compensate for the lack of damage
The stealth depletion while attacking is an obvious game design contradiction.
The Saboteur path heavily relies on attacking while stealthed (that is a different matter from perma stealth, which I agree is a broken mechanic) and with the upcoming changes it won't be viable at all.
Actually it's one of, if not the, weakest path and yet it was fun (at least for me, even if not very well designed; ruthless efficiency is kinda joke for a "boss killer class"), now it's simply rubbish.
The game designer team must be changed or simply don't have a deep knowledge of their own business if they make such a mistakes.
The permastealth rogue attacking through stealth without ending stealth? That's not very D&D at all.
So could you say for the perma-block Guardian Fighter, who even blocks control spells with their shield (lol).
A control wizard who do single target damage next to a rogue - wizards are in 4E quite low damage and their role is to ged rid of minions with low hit points.
And the DC, which is so gimped that it is a offense to call this a cleric.
In fact, I played a rogue in pen&paper 4E. Sure, the damage is not as pronounced as in Neverwinter, but my halfling realy was though and deadly - much more then a rogue in previous editions.
Well I am already in the process of leaving, I decided the game is not worth it at all. The TR gutting was just the nail in the coffin. I don't like anything about PW and what they are about and the forums are a POS with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mods and their customer service is sub par, the game has no GM support, and apparently everyone is still playing beta with all these major changes they are doing. I been having a blast playing EQ again with my guildies, its actually a challenge for one thing and not loaded with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> amount of adds. I just dropped another 40 bucks on SOE to buy an expansion pack, money they could have got, but why waste my time and money or breath. They don't listen.
Comments
Permastealth was OP and get nerfed. Lurker nerf, as for me, wasn't necessary, it's enough of at-will in stealth nerf to destroy permastealth build.
So... you are doing charity or it is because avatar of war helm is really expensive since no ones brings GWF to spellplague...
Because it is way faster and safer Spellplague (or any other dungeons with lots of holes) with 2 CW than with 1 CW + 1 GWF...
I have a fixed party and they dont let me go with my GWF in spellplague because it would take longer, so I have to play with CW there (we have another CW and we could clear with my GWF, but once he cant compete in 1v1 dmg against a TR there is no use, but if they nerf TR dmg it would be better having a GWF + CW than 2 CWs).
Ok, The nerf on LA duration is too much... (imo, that no one cares, it should be 5/10/15% more dmg and 10 seconds)
next time read the patch notes properly , its gone from 20%/40 %/60 % damage buff to 5/10/15% crit severity buff and about 4-5 seconds less duration on it. overall damage buff and crit severity buff is a huge differance.
it will since rogues will be basically non existent if the patch is implemented , so its not really a matter of making them more viable,more like most rogues will stop playing them, .or wont be able to get in a group unless there fully geared.
u are totally overkilling rogues and not touching GWFs? this has nothing to do with pvp balance whatsoever
additionally lurkers assault is the only useful daily and the most fun thing to use in dungeons. dont trash it completly please
i wont stop playing TR no matter what happens. but i feel bad for all the rogues without real good gear (>95%) its gonna be impossible for them to even find a dungeon group
imho u are unbalancing this game even more and big time nerfing the fun factor in pve.
I know that I said It should be 15% dmg buff instead of 15% CS...
1) At-Wills take a huge chunk of the stealth meter, couldn't even get through a full duelist flurry before the stealth meter was up also tried it with Cloud of Steel, still had charges left when stealth meter expired due to use.
2) Even with Lurker Assault the amount of At-Wills uses of the stealth meter far out-weighed any stealth gained by Lurker Assault also notice once your stealth meter was gone your Lurker Assault daily expired. If this wasn't the cast then they really nerfed the time to be in Lurker Assault.
Unfortunately this nerf seriously hurts TR's in PvE just as much in PvP, personally I only did PvP as part of my dailies as honestly PvP is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and boring. If your going to seriously nerf this much to a TR you should at least increase our at-wills damage out put, or change Lurk Assault back to doing extra damage instead of Crit. I don't even see a Crit build TR being viable the amount of loss of damage is really to much to recover from.
So as I see it, I'll still nearly be one shotted by a CW's Ice Knife, anybody will a full set of Tens will still be OP and the complaining about PvP will just move to another class. If you think that this will solve everything it won't all that will happen is some other class will now be next on the target list. One you start down the nerf path it will only keep circling like a buzzard over a carcass it doesn't stop till they ruin the game.
Your not fixing the exploits only try to band-aid them, so those that exploited all the dungeons are still rewarded while the rest are punished. You want people to fully do the dungeons then the rewards need to meet the risk involved, the end chest should reward you due to your effort not the exploit. The more mobs you kill in a dungeon the better the reward is at the end chest, you skip everything and only kill the bosses the chest should not reward you with end game gear. Unfortunately this is what happens when you put Devs in that can't think outside the box and are stuck in the same mentality of all other MMORPGs. When I use to be a DM players got reward based on their actions, mobs they killed etc..., did a good job got good lot.
so i will not spend any money for you good that you did it now and saved my money. Thank you
the fact that cryptic tried to gleam enough of PNP D&D to attract a fanbase, while simplifying the core mechanic enough for their 2nd rate (probably 3rd rate) coders to actually implement, is the main problem. And that leads us to PWE's upper management not wanting to shell out enough cash to actually hire competent coders. If they would have just followed the core rule-set laid down in black and white, which have been refined since 1979 . this game would be perfect. Instead we have a half-dnd half-idunnowtfitis game that needs as much refinement as pen and paper dnd did in 79.........
take it back to theory and try again.
Maybe someone has some valuable info about other changes?
On the other hand I don't like making everything in this game BoP - it's like saying you have to buy zen. Even items for seals and glory are now BoP - what's the point of collecting seals?
I actually enjoyed that in NW, unlike the other DnD/FR rpg games out there, rogues were actually -useful- in parties for their very specialised ability to target a single foe. They are NOT some super easy class to play, get out there in PVM as an average player with an average build, and you'll find that going up against swarms of enemies is really hard with a TR, as it should be, and thus partying up is of benefit.. but it was so rewarding to know that TRs were valuable in killing bosses, where the other melee chars focused on kill #s, TRs had their 'strength' in 1 on 1 damage and stealth played a major role in that.
Shocking execution was very overpowered. I'm glad that was toned down BUT i would prefer it was replaced with another feat as it's now literally less useful than lashing blade which is an encounter power... yet it's a daily.. i would not call that 'balanced' and I think it would be more interesting if another daily was introduced in its place for some variety.
Hurting stealth isn't really going to fix the problem pvpers have with powerbuilt rogues, the people who tweak the builds and numbers are going to continue to find ways to pulverise other chars in pvp... while the rest of us meager little pvmers who aren't usually nearly as vocal on the forums, meanwhile have to struggle through with nerfed chars when things are already tricky enough ... and we don't even get the added benefit anymore of being on par with the other melee classes (at least not from my experience).
I wish some of these changes would be SPECIFICALLY implemented for PVP rather than making gameplay less fun for everyone.
lmao! can no one see the irony in all the posts like this?
I was trying to explain these proposed (hopefully still... plz) changes to the rogue class to my girlfriend. She plays a rogue (as do I) and is around level 28. I explained how the "stealth mode" that I've finally taught her to use, so she stops getting worked by the bosses, won't last as long and it won't give her the bonuses she got before, she said "wait, isn't that about all we can do anyways? that sucks." She is decidedly *not* a gamer, I am lucky to get her to play a game with me 2x a month.
And I will not even be able to buy her new gear with all the seals I have, without it binding to me, how much fun for her...
and before you start with your stupid whiny baby voice, unintelligible rambles about permastealth this or that, no it's not a perma stealth build at all.... not even close.
Oh wait I know you answers already... I'll tell her she now has to play as an anime character who carries a sword large enough for the jolly green giant to use to be effective huh?
SO sick of all the hatred towards one class...
Then why do ppl still hate bringing GWF to dungeons? Are you sick of that too?
Take the rogue out of the shadows and they do less damage. Dealing consistent high damage - high damage for more than a single hit, and especially high damage while soloing an opponent - is not a traditional feature of rogues in D&D. Even in 4th edition, where the rogue has become a dedicated damage output machine, the rogue:
1. Relies on combat advantage for bonus damage.
2. Only applies that bonus damage once per turn.
There's also a substantial flat bonus involved. Basically, the fighter does 1d12+(flat bonus)+STR bonus; the rogue does 1d4+(flat bonus)+STR bonus with sneak damage thrown in. And then there are a number of powers that deal 2[W], 3[W], etc damage, where using a d12 weapon is amplified. Etc. Not nearly that large of a gap.
Rogues having permanent invisibility and immunity to damage is... novel. Attacking broke you out of rogue stealth abilities in 1st edition, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, and 4th edition. Stealth was not invisibility, untargetability, and did not confer immunity to AOEs and other attacks. (In 3rd edition, rogues picked up evasion, but this didn't rely on stealth to function.)
In 2nd edition, rogues ultimately had one good attack every once in a long while, because backstab damage required the target being unaware of your presence. It could be a very high spike of damage, but you got it once.
In 3rd edition (and 4th), rogues relied on flanking more than stealth. They could have very nice damage output, but usually only reliably (rather than just on a first hit) with someone else supplying combat advantage for them.
Up through 3rd edition, in fact, rogues were primarily skill monkeys rather than combat monsters. The permastealth rogue attacking through stealth without ending stealth? That's not very D&D at all.
(Daily eligible! Could use more reviews. Largely complete.)
Actually, I wouldn't know if people are doing that or not, as I do not play one. The reasons behind it are probably about the same as the reasons for hating on rogues, I would imagine.
I spend enough time waiting to get into dungeons myself, only to be told I suck or, more likely, have everyone leave after failing the boss fight once.
If this is all about the damage meter display.....
Rogues used to get the most damage consistently. But from my experience, my own rogue usually always got 1 or 2 in damage and CONSISTENTLY last in # of kills.
Rogues were truly balanced well to do damage to a SINGLE foe. (This might explain why the PVPers whined about them! Thus a need to separate PVP issues from PVE... a single target focused damage dealer is obviously going to wipe out one at a time easier in pvp than other classes..)
It was already a challenge to play them anyone who thinks otherwise either hasn't played one, or they are a pvp nut who is also epic at playing any other class because they're just a super duper gamer in general. Each class I found, previously had their strengths and their 'niche' in combat. The TR has now lost theirs, it bothers me even just as someone who isn't usually that picky about combat, because it was a lot of fun before while still being challenging... Other classes would always get the highest # of kills, usually GWF or CW and from time to time even the GFs. The damage dealt doesn't necessarily reflect how easy a class is to play, OR that it is overpowered, especially when you consider that damage can only be effectively focused on one target and is (or was) vital for boss killing where rogues will now be extremely less useful.
Was it intented that Swashbuckler should be way way way better than all other dungeon obtainable T2 pve gear? Was getting 15000 extra power as a guardian fighter from the set bonus of a T1 Set in Conjunction with a Conqueror build even thought about? It would have been the simplest math there is, and I have difficulty imagining how it could be overlooked.
There are many weak links on your design team, Cryptic. You should fire them or hire overseers with the ability to see wider implications to oversee and tweak their work.
This is a travesty and the main problem is incompetence by some that is not kept in check by the more competent employees or more rigorous in-company guidelines on methods/processes to check the wider implications of the values one considers implementing.
~
Personally, I think Rogue single target dps needed a reduction (My only level 60 is a rogue, and I have full experience of the game with it).
The reason for this is that Double Rogue should not be more attractive than Rogue + GF/GWF(Destroyer with 5 sent for debuff. sentinels can stick to tenebrous abusing in pvp with their dismal pve dps and kill anyone who isn't a competent kiter). Party diversification should at minimum not be something that is undesirable.
Currently, the best balance between reliability and speed in Castle Never is had by running 2 Rogues, 2 CWs, 1 Cleric, and that's just not right.
Nerfing Lurker's Assault is a step in the right direction to achieve higher class diversification desirability, but the new effect chosen and its value goes too far even disregarding the stealth nerf if one does just a tiny bit of math. It turned a 60% damage buff into somewhere in the area of 5%. The damage buff wasn't all there is to Lurker's Assault. Stealth in itself gives a lot of bonuses assuming non-scoundrel.
However, stealth itself is in this patch reduced to below the point of practicality and game enjoyment. Before the coming patch, you can plan your skills some 15-40 seconds ahead to achieve the optimal use of skills and cooldown in conjunction with stealth. When At-Wills reduce stealth, this is mostly dead in the form that it was, and the new form that is looks not very fun and mentally stimulating. Stealth being reduced to "Oh I can stealth and weave in some fly flourishes and a lashing blade or wicked reminder and then resume flurry refreshing from out of stealth afterwards".
I could have lived with the Lurker's Assault nerf, even though it was much more than was needed to make group diversity more desirable, but the stealth nerf is either badly thought through, or the development team has a very different idea of how the rogue class should feel than the vast majority of those who play it.
In either way, get it together and police your colleagues, you people at cryptic who know you're smarter than the rest and understand more than the rest. Don't let their incompetence ruin your source of income and tarnish your career by besmudging you with the dishonor of being a former cryptic employee when cryptic failed their game so terribly.
PS: What the is deflection about, currently? Why have a version of defense whose average reduction and reliability is worse than defense on even the only class that has high deflect severity? A person straight out of elementary school could look at those numbers and understand this.
Excuse my tone, but it's almost hard to fathom how the many very easily fixable aspects of the game are still as they were, and new mistakes of ridiculous proportions are being made now with nerfing stealth. Something needs to change internally inside Cryptic in regards to procedure, staff and design team structure, and you all have a responsibility and investment in pushing hard for them, as the fallout of failure will besmirch your CV for the rest of your life.
i Agree completely they already made shocking execution almost a useless daily without lurkers there is no good tr daily left also df was nerfed and in dnd rogues are damage dealers they are suppose to do a lot of damage what do you think sneak attack is for in which case this game does not have whatsoever not only that gf are far more op in pvp they can perma knock you down and kill you before you even can do anything gf need a nerf more then tr and even then a good gf can block almost all attacks in pvp with the shield if this nerf goes live i will quit along with my guild they are completely ruining tr because of people constant qq'ing next there gonna have to nerf the dungeons to compensate for the lack of damage
The Saboteur path heavily relies on attacking while stealthed (that is a different matter from perma stealth, which I agree is a broken mechanic) and with the upcoming changes it won't be viable at all.
Actually it's one of, if not the, weakest path and yet it was fun (at least for me, even if not very well designed; ruthless efficiency is kinda joke for a "boss killer class"), now it's simply rubbish.
The game designer team must be changed or simply don't have a deep knowledge of their own business if they make such a mistakes.
So could you say for the perma-block Guardian Fighter, who even blocks control spells with their shield (lol).
A control wizard who do single target damage next to a rogue - wizards are in 4E quite low damage and their role is to ged rid of minions with low hit points.
And the DC, which is so gimped that it is a offense to call this a cleric.
In fact, I played a rogue in pen&paper 4E. Sure, the damage is not as pronounced as in Neverwinter, but my halfling realy was though and deadly - much more then a rogue in previous editions.
HUD: The Character Sheet button in the top bar now glows if the player has unspent Ability, Power, or Feat points.
Agreed.
Cryptic, when you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do