True, I'm getting increasingly annoyed with the monotonous feedback I get whenever I or other folks who play TR's are actively participating in an intelligent discussion about the myths and facts on stealth.
I mean, how many more times do I need to prove stealth is not invisibility? It's becoming too much of a dead horse and I'm not happy with what the smell attracts.
My first char is CW. I acknowledged that prenerf CW's were a bit overpowered and I never argued with the screams for nerf. Nerf came and I believe the end game CW's are in a pretty good place contrary to the belief of many other CW's who are crying for buffs. I also play a rogue. I acknowledge that certain aspects of the rogue are a bit overpowered. The perma stealth build is tipping the scales a bit too far in my opinion.
All the suggested and offered counters to this build could feasibly work but I also acknowledge how easily they could be countered to the class performing thems detriment.
Majority of the posts screaming for nerf are a bit overzealous. I'd like to think I'm bringing the latter side of the discussion a bit more intelligently and I meant no disrespect over the comments towards your video posts. I just honestly didn't see or understand to what you were referring.
All the suggested and offered counters to this build could feasibly work but I also acknowledge how easily they could be countered to the class performing thems detriment.
Majority of the posts screaming for nerf are a bit overzealous. I'd like to think I'm bringing the latter side of the discussion a bit more intelligently and I meant no disrespect over the comments towards your video posts. I just honestly didn't see or understand to what you were referring.
Thanks, I do appreciate the effort.
You're right, tactics have counters and that's where skill comes into play. Every counter has a counter.
I think we disagree on how much, or little, can counter stealth in general and perma-stealth in particular. I do agree we managed to discus that civil in the other thread, although admittedly, with a bit less enthusiasm from my side. I would actually prefer to keep the discussion there.
I've leveled through PvP a couple times. Rogues are overpowered throughout. Their kill counts are around 30 or 40 and they die perhaps 4 or 5 times. The next highest kill count to a rogue typically is 10 unless people are finishing off rogue hits.
That is strange, because while levelling CW through pvp I topped the charts much more than on rogue; and I don't think I have ever seen a rogue-or any class get 40 kills in one game.
I asked: "I have some questions for all the people who think rogues are OP. Did you level up through pvp? If so did you think rogues were OP while levelling through PvP or did you start thinking they were OP at level cap? If you thought they were OP while levelling in pvp, what class did you play? If you played multiple classes were there some classes against which you thought rogues were particularly OP?"
Mainly because while I levelled my CW through pvp, I really didn't have any issue with rogues; in fact I found them usually to be the easiest class to counter/beat. When I hit 60 rogues seemed very strong, but pre-60 my experience of rogues is so different to how some people describe rogues as being OP that I honestly can't understand what is going on.
Did you guys really try pvp before level cap? Rogues are like possibly the weakest class 1vs1 (pre-60) unless they are highly geared. They could be buffed if anything.
WTF dude? The guy said using these builds makes him suck *** in PVE. How is this not reading the 1st two sentences when both those topics are DPS PVP builds.
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
I was reacting to you mentioning GCTRL's thread since the one you quoted was more about OP showing off and you trying to insult "whiners" yet again, which isn't really nice. So GCTRL, who is, afaik, a well-thought-of member of community, posted a elaborate guide with a note:
1) This is a PURE damage PvP build , that basically means the only heal you have is Soothing Light from Divine Mode, which you should try to avoid using (obviously be smart about it, there are some situations where it will be helpful, play according to the situation).
...
3) Ever heard of a glass cannon? Yeah, that's you. BIG DAMAGE (My Daunting Light currently hits anywhere from 13-20k), but pretty squishy.
Even if he did included some "PvE-oriented" options in his build, the main purpose of it is being a special kind of DD. So a "glass cannon" cleric trying to heal a undergeared or underskilled PUG in a dungeon where 1000 and 1 mobs are chasing his divine bottom sounds extremely fun. Of course, pending answer is "don't run with a pug", the typical answer that PvE clerics hear when they "whine" about their hard time in PvP. Anyway, the point of my intervention was to tell you that you should drop this overweening tone and stop calling everyone a "whiner". They are players, just like you, they have a right to voice their concerns on this forum, nothing bad about this. And you are hardly the expert on every class and every build to be so arrogant about other people's troubles.
Did you guys really try pvp before level cap? Rogues are like possibly the weakest class 1vs1 (pre-60) unless they are highly geared. They could be buffed if anything.
I'm currently leveling my 1st char mainly through PvP and she's yet to reach lvl 60. I don't think rogues should be buffed, they have decent damage and if they are using their utility spells right and not attempting to tank a GF/GWF, they are hardly the weakest class, even if pre-60 rogues are easy to counter indeed.
Kill counts are irrelevant IMO because I personally KS a lot and I die less because I'm a "coward", I play the TR guerrilla style
I ambush, do as much damage as I can if I feel that I can finish them I stay and fight, if we are 1v1 I stay and fight, if someone comes to help my target I run, if I'm close to dying I focus on running away
the points you get for capping nodes are the only thing that matter, after all the top player is there because he got nodes not because of his kill/death ratio
as a DC I always finish in the top 3 because I cap nodes and sometimes I have 0 kills but I almost always top in assists
I completely agree with you on this. I have a L 60 DC and there have been times when I get maybe 1 or 2 kills, but I have 50 assists. Also, I have tons of points because I am capping control nodes.
However, on my new TR which I have taken from L 11 to 23 solely in PVP, I play like you described. If I can get the kill, especially in 1v1 I will go for the kill. Otherwise I cap a lot and I harass the other team. If there is a fight with more then 4 people I usually get focus fired so after a few hits, its stealth and run. This is how I end up with 15 kills and 0 deaths.
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
Kill counts are irrelevant IMO because I personally KS a lot and I die less because I'm a "coward", I play the TR guerrilla style
I ambush, do as much damage as I can if I feel that I can finish them I stay and fight, if we are 1v1 I stay and fight, if someone comes to help my target I run, if I'm close to dying I focus on running away
the points you get for capping nodes are the only thing that matter, after all the top player is there because he got nodes not because of his kill/death ratio
as a DC I always finish in the top 3 because I cap nodes and sometimes I have 0 kills but I almost always top in assists
P.S. we should start making videos of other classes countering TRs, maybe then people will listen
when I get my DC to 60 and gear him up i'll definitely do some videos, currently on lvl 50
P.P.S. the immortality thingy is some kind of cheat/hack
you will most likely be in for quite a surprise when you hit 60
I completely agree with you on this. I have a L 60 DC and there have been times when I get maybe 1 or 2 kills, but I have 50 assists. Also, I have tons of points because I am capping control nodes.
However, on my new TR which I have taken from L 11 to 23 solely in PVP, I play like you described. If I can get the kill, especially in 1v1 I will go for the kill. Otherwise I cap a lot and I harass the other team. If there is a fight with more then 4 people I usually get focus fired so after a few hits, its stealth and run. This is how I end up with 15 kills and 0 deaths.
15 kills and 0 deaths while capping nodes is a good team player.. those who get 30+ kills and die seldom and end up making their teams lose while helping nobody out I hate upon either side (two of those on my team means I'll be constantly out numbered and die a lot while all the non-rogues end up at the bottom of the chart while the team loses but the rouges finish at the top and get their top of chart item reward... I'll often leave right away and find a different match than play in this type of scenerio).
That is strange, because while levelling CW through pvp I topped the charts much more than on rogue; and I don't think I have ever seen a rogue-or any class get 40 kills in one game.
Just because you've never personally seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen often:
Kill counts are irrelevant IMO because I personally KS a lot and I die less because I'm a "coward", I play the TR guerrilla style
I ambush, do as much damage as I can if I feel that I can finish them I stay and fight, if we are 1v1 I stay and fight, if someone comes to help my target I run, if I'm close to dying I focus on running away
the points you get for capping nodes are the only thing that matter, after all the top player is there because he got nodes not because of his kill/death ratio
as a DC I always finish in the top 3 because I cap nodes and sometimes I have 0 kills but I almost always top in assists
P.S. we should start making videos of other classes countering TRs, maybe then people will listen
when I get my DC to 60 and gear him up i'll definitely do some videos, currently on lvl 50
P.P.S. the immortality thingy is some kind of cheat/hack
LOL all the jealous baddies who can't kill anyone and die constantly in PvP say that K/D don't matter and all that matters are Assists and personal points. I've even had a troll Rogue tell me that all my kills are "lucky killsteals."
You won't games if your team cannot kill your enemies. No amount of backcapping and running away from fights will win you games. Your team will eventually have to kill the other team more often than they kill your team at some point in order to win.
Then again, you're a lowbie newb Cleric, so you have no clue what you're even talking about. When you finally get out of the lowbie brackets and into the real level 60 PvP, you may one day understand.
LOL all the jealous baddies who can't kill anyone and die constantly in PvP say that K/D don't matter and all that matters are Assists and personal points. I've even had a troll Rogue tell me that all my kills are "lucky killsteals."
Kills don't matter when you have 1 sent GWF contesting the far flag and keeping 2-3 of the enemy team defending it.
He can have a 0-20 K/D and still win teh game for his team.
Kills are good yeah, but without a proper strategy they are pretty useless. Not saying K/D always doesn't matter, but in some cases dying several times just to contest a node and prevent the enemy from getting points will win games.
Kills don't matter when you have 1 sent GWF contesting the far flag and keeping 2-3 of the enemy team defending it.
He can have a 0-20 K/D and still win teh game for his team.
Kills are good yeah, but without a proper strategy they are pretty useless. Not saying K/D always doesn't matter, but in some cases dying several times just to contest a node and prevent the enemy from getting points will win games.
Guess who kills (or at least makes them run away) those easymode cheese Sent. GWFs and prevents them from sitting on the nodes all day?
I contest enemy nodes. That's what I do. I go into the enemy's territory and either cap or contest their nodes, while killing their defenders. If I get zerged, I run away and come back to do the same thing again. I don't play like a wuss like most people do in this game. You can contest/cap nodes without dying, you know?
Guess who kills (or at least makes them run away) those easymode cheese Sent. GWFs and prevents them from sitting on the nodes all day?
I contest enemy nodes. That's what I do. I go into the enemy's territory and either cap or contest their nodes, while killing their defenders. If I get zerged, I run away and come back to do the same thing again. I don't play like a wuss like most people do in this game. You can contest/cap nodes without dying, you know?
if most rogues didn't play like a wuss then you would really see how OP the class is, as it currently stands rogues are often detriments to their own teams (especially if all they do is spend the bulk of their time killing off nodes)
if most rogues didn't play like a wuss then you would really see how OP the class is, as it currently stands rogues are often detriments to their own teams (especially if all they do is spend the bulk of their time killing off nodes)
Rogues are not OP. Sent. GWFs and GFs with Regen gear and 6-7 G.Tenebrous are OP.
(Talented) Rogues are just good at what they're intended to do: kill single targets fast. People cry all the time about Rogues because they get owned by them due to their bad gear, bad gameplay, and inability to see how to counter Rogues.
I do agree that most Rogues I see in PvP are horrible and a wasted slot on their team. Then again, I can say that about most players of all classes in PvP.
As for this thread, it's just the same Rogue haters whining about the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for weeks and months on this forum. They'll never learn to adapt or improve their gear and gameplay. They'd rather just troll the forums all day. I do agree that permastealth Rogues are cheesy, overpowered, and only played by p*ssy Rogues who can't do well with a spec that takes more talent. However, permastealth Rogues are also easily countered.
Rogues are not OP. Sent. GWFs and GFs with Regen gear and 6-7 G.Tenebrous are OP.
I completely agree with you here. Seems to me that everyone complaining about rogues are complaining because they got into a match and some TR <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them 5 or 6 times 1v1. Sorry but this is what rogues do...they have 1 job and thats single target DPS. When rogues start repelling 2-4 attackers for an entire match, then I'll agree with the OP comments.
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
WTF dude? The guy said using these builds makes him suck *** in PVE. How is this not reading the 1st two sentences when both those topics are DPS PVP builds.
I was reacting to you mentioning GCTRL's thread since the one you quoted was more about OP showing off and you trying to insult "whiners" yet again, which isn't really nice. So GCTRL, who is, afaik, a well-thought-of member of community, posted a elaborate guide with a note:
Even if he did included some "PvE-oriented" options in his build, the main purpose of it is being a special kind of DD. So a "glass cannon" cleric trying to heal a undergeared or underskilled PUG in a dungeon where 1000 and 1 mobs are chasing his divine bottom sounds extremely fun. Of course, pending answer is "don't run with a pug", the typical answer that PvE clerics hear when they "whine" about their hard time in PvP. Anyway, the point of my intervention was to tell you that you should drop this overweening tone and stop calling everyone a "whiner". They are players, just like you, they have a right to voice their concerns on this forum, nothing bad about this. And you are hardly the expert on every class and every build to be so arrogant about other people's troubles.
.
I never personally follow a build literally , i always make some changes to make it fit for me and that's why i linked the two builds for you.
I'm offering solutions for some classes ( GF GWF TR CW) to counter the perma build , some i tested myself and some were tested by my friends / guild mates. So i'm not being arrogant, i'm stating facts that you aren't aware of ( as you mentioned before you are a newbie cleric) and i was only trying to help you.
I'm calling people "whiners" when they actually ignore the solutions, and stick to the nerf hammer instead of using their heads and adapt to the current situation so i'm sorry if you took it personally, i never called you a whiner.
Like for example, one of my offered solutions was the rejuvenation pot . But yet some "whiners" attacked me for suggesting it as it isn't " intended" to be used in PvP ( i have no clue why they claim that) and they still stick to the nerf hammer. This is when i call them whiners.
As for other solutions of how to counter Perma rogues:
As a CW:
Try to use steal time, it litteraly shut them down.
If the TR throws daggers at you from stealth, observe the direction of the daggers and use your 3 blinks to cancel his Cloud of steel damage build up. You will make him waste lots of daggers that way.
Make sure you slot shield, it will push them off even if they are stealthed.
Use conduit of ice once he appears , the tornado animation will show up on him revealing his location even while stealthed. and the damage over time will make him lose more stealth regeneration.
Pretty mcuh try to use smoke bomb whenever you sense him approaching , and ofcourse use your dodges to cancel his daggers build up not to mention impossible to catch.
Try to move your cursor around to spot him , sooner or later he will approach you to get benefit of his stealth+ lashing blade combo.
As for daily , use Blood Bath , it will hit him even if he goes stealthed again and it will pretty much destroy all of his hit points.
PS. Only use blood bath with 2 targets maximum else the outcome damage will be very low.
Pretty much stay inside your astral aura , try to use your dashes aswell. As a cleric make sure you are never alone, the perma rogue will always target you first in the crowd try to kite him up and let your team do the job.
Use your punting abilities, it is very annoying when he tries to approach you.
you have a daily that root enemies while staying in place, make sure to use that once he appears.
Make sure you raise your shield whenever he starts throwing daggers, even if he use tenebrous, your shield will waste 5 up to 9 daggers out of 12.
Move your cursor around and once you spot him, use your 3 knocks and he is pretty much dead.As he will need to use shadow strike to regenerate his stealth back so make sure he is on the floor most of the time.
======================================================================================
A general solution for all classes, make sure you always pick up the regeneration potions near the capture points. They work even if your hit points are full and can regenerate all your hit points.
Try to have some potion of rejuvenation with you , they are useful in these situations.
agree with thread .......if you put any of other then tr class in 1 vs 1 then there is fun (thrill for players whose playing that match)to watch how they dodge and use skills and there is equal chance to kill each other ......but there tr class who has to do jus click on stealth button and throw knifes , use spells that cnt be dodged with too much damage given to them .....and kill well build 12k gs foe with 9k gs tr and lol on them for wht that cryptic overpowered them.....( zero skill class tr) sorry for my english.........
As for other solutions of how to counter Perma rogues:
As a CW:
Try to use steal time, it litteraly shut them down.
/*Snip Snip*/
Good luck.
Ahem, your solutions for CW work only to blind and very stupid rogues, no one and I mean no one stays to watch steal time to go off. No reasonable rogue goes near CW with shield, it can be seen miles away. CoI does work IF you get them out from stealth by some miracle.
Teleports DO NOT WORK AGAINST GEARED ROGUES, CWs have too little hitpoints to survive.
CW solution to permastealth rogue is either get very very lucky or die, usually die. and die. and diediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediedie.
LOL all the jealous baddies who can't kill anyone and die constantly in PvP say that K/D don't matter and all that matters are Assists and personal points. I've even had a troll Rogue tell me that all my kills are "lucky killsteals."
You won't games if your team cannot kill your enemies. No amount of backcapping and running away from fights will win you games. Your team will eventually have to kill the other team more often than they kill your team at some point in order to win.
Then again, you're a lowbie newb Cleric, so you have no clue what you're even talking about. When you finally get out of the lowbie brackets and into the real level 60 PvP, you may one day understand.
And that's your average TR. Boasting about skill while running cheap **** carried by bull**** game mechanics.
Ahem, your solutions for CW work only to blind and very stupid rogues, no one and I mean no one stays to watch steal time to go off. No reasonable rogue goes near CW with shield, it can be seen miles away. CoI does work IF you get them out from stealth by some miracle.
He will eventually have to approach you to do his lashing blade, this is when you can use shield or steal time.
If you are a CW and dying from his 12 daggers only , it means you are pretty much low geared / standing still.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
I'm calling people "whiners" when they actually ignore the solutions, and stick to the nerf hammer instead of using their heads and adapt to the current situation so i'm sorry if you took it personally, i never called you a whiner.
I apologize if my post was a bit rude, but "rogue brigade" seem to throw around insults pretty easily and hardly make any effort to make a civil kind of conversation, and I figured you're the one of "them". You didn't called me a whiner, but you called that other players - and I insist that they have a right to whine without you being rude to them. If they don't listen, tell them they are unreasonable, if they persist, talk to other people who will listen to you.
Shield ... and without shield? Dead... instantly. K thx bye
This is what happens to mages in many other MMO games. That's why you have to kite and never stand for too long in one place; and ofc use the terrain when it's possible. Yes, casting takes time, so you have to run around between casts and preferably use skills with the lowest cast time, even if damage is mediocre. At my low level PvP I've seen a lot of this - mages standing still and casting their spells, only to be swiftly slaughtered. Since leveling is extremely fast in NWO, I believe these poor souls reach lvl 60 without proper understanding how to evade the attack of a real opponent. It just the playing versus real people takes a bit different approach, you won't defeat them in the same manner as mobs.
LOL all the jealous baddies who can't kill anyone and die constantly in PvP say that K/D don't matter and all that matters are Assists and personal points. I've even had a troll Rogue tell me that all my kills are "lucky killsteals."
You won't games if your team cannot kill your enemies. No amount of backcapping and running away from fights will win you games. Your team will eventually have to kill the other team more often than they kill your team at some point in order to win.
Then again, you're a lowbie newb Cleric, so you have no clue what you're even talking about. When you finally get out of the lowbie brackets and into the real level 60 PvP, you may one day understand.
Those screens were all from the broken pvp at level 60, you are rarely going to see those numbers in the more balanced and functioning pvp before level cap.
BTW, you can win games by taking points and not letting the enemy stand on them, you don't need to rack up lots of kills to win, although it is fun. I've actually seen quite a few games where the winning team had less kills than the losing team.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have seen CWs with 23k HP , idk how that is very little. It is more than enough to survive his 12 daggers with 3 dashes and shield slotted.
He will eventually have to approach you to do his lashing blade, this is when you can use shield or steal time.
If you are a CW and dying from his 12 daggers only , it means you are pretty much low geared / standing still.
So CW's are suppose to dodge and survive using shield but stand still use steal time when they think the rogue's coming to use LB. Aren't they suppose to get in range to use shield to knock them out of stealth? Or stand still to cast steal time in order to knock them out of stealth? And don't the permastealth rogues use impact shot rather then lashing blade? :rolleyes:
Those screens were all from the broken pvp at level 60, you are rarely going to see those numbers in the more balanced and functioning pvp before level cap.
BTW, you can win games by taking points and not letting the enemy stand on them, you don't need to rack up lots of kills to win, although it is fun. I've actually seen quite a few games where the winning team had less kills than the losing team.
The only things broken about PvP at level 60 are Sent. GWF and GFs with Regen gear and 6-7 G.Tenebrous, permastealth Rogues, and Perfect Thunderhead Enchantment. I'm not any of the above. Also, there's nothing balanced about PvP at lower levels. CWs get Ice Knife and wreck everyone in the 40-59 brackets. Players who twink their characters are far superior to actual new players and dominate them.
Show me games where the winning team has significantly less kills than the losing team then maybe I'll believe you.
So CW's are suppose to dodge and survive using shield but stand still use steal time when they think the rogue's coming to use LB. Aren't they suppose to get in range to use shield to knock them out of stealth? Or stand still to cast steal time in order to knock them out of stealth? And don't the permastealth rogues use impact shot rather then lashing blade? :rolleyes:
Both can work that's why i said " shield or steal time".
About impact shot, they do use it ofc but i would use lashing blade instead since either ways my stealth will be consumed.
It is actually situational, i would use lashing blade and annoy them with impact shot in 1 vs 1 situations but in mass pvp impact shot first will be more useful since you will have a safe distance from the crowd.
The only things broken about PvP at level 60 are Sent. GWF and GFs with Regen gear and 6-7 G.Tenebrous, permastealth Rogues, and Perfect Thunderhead Enchantment. I'm not any of the above. Also, there's nothing balanced about PvP at lower levels. CWs get Ice Knife and wreck everyone in the 40-59 brackets. Players who twink their characters are far superior to actual new players and dominate them.
Show me games where the winning team has significantly less kills than the losing team then maybe I'll believe you.
I think you just proved my point.
BTW I never said "significantly" , I said "I've actually seen quite a few games where the winning team had less kills than the losing team. " Which you will likely see if you level through pvp without twinking since the game is domination not elimination.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Both can work that's why i said " shield or steal time".
About impact shot, they do use it ofc but i would use lashing blade instead since either ways my stealth will be consumed.
It is actually situational, i would use lashing blade and annoy them with impact shot in 1 vs 1 situations but in mass pvp impact shot first will be more useful since you will have a safe distance from the crowd.
I was being facetious because all of your suggested counters for a cw when put into actual game play context would require the rogue to be a complete dolt to be affected by any of it.
I was being facetious because all of your suggested counters for a cw when put into actual game play context would require the rogue to be a complete dolt to be affected by any of it.
So if a rogue makes a mistake and fall out of his stealth by a CW it means he is a complete dolt? :rolleyes:
I would rather say that he got outplayed, but since you are so perfect, i suspect that you will never fall in such mistakes.
Like i said, my suggestions are tested by me and friends they are based on actual game play context if you have anything to prove me wrong please do so. If you don't , i suggest you stop embarrassing yourself.
Comments
My first char is CW. I acknowledged that prenerf CW's were a bit overpowered and I never argued with the screams for nerf. Nerf came and I believe the end game CW's are in a pretty good place contrary to the belief of many other CW's who are crying for buffs. I also play a rogue. I acknowledge that certain aspects of the rogue are a bit overpowered. The perma stealth build is tipping the scales a bit too far in my opinion.
All the suggested and offered counters to this build could feasibly work but I also acknowledge how easily they could be countered to the class performing thems detriment.
Majority of the posts screaming for nerf are a bit overzealous. I'd like to think I'm bringing the latter side of the discussion a bit more intelligently and I meant no disrespect over the comments towards your video posts. I just honestly didn't see or understand to what you were referring.
Thanks, I do appreciate the effort.
You're right, tactics have counters and that's where skill comes into play. Every counter has a counter.
I think we disagree on how much, or little, can counter stealth in general and perma-stealth in particular. I do agree we managed to discus that civil in the other thread, although admittedly, with a bit less enthusiasm from my side. I would actually prefer to keep the discussion there.
That is strange, because while levelling CW through pvp I topped the charts much more than on rogue; and I don't think I have ever seen a rogue-or any class get 40 kills in one game.
I asked: "I have some questions for all the people who think rogues are OP. Did you level up through pvp? If so did you think rogues were OP while levelling through PvP or did you start thinking they were OP at level cap? If you thought they were OP while levelling in pvp, what class did you play? If you played multiple classes were there some classes against which you thought rogues were particularly OP?"
Mainly because while I levelled my CW through pvp, I really didn't have any issue with rogues; in fact I found them usually to be the easiest class to counter/beat. When I hit 60 rogues seemed very strong, but pre-60 my experience of rogues is so different to how some people describe rogues as being OP that I honestly can't understand what is going on.
Did you guys really try pvp before level cap? Rogues are like possibly the weakest class 1vs1 (pre-60) unless they are highly geared. They could be buffed if anything.
WTF dude? The guy said using these builds makes him suck *** in PVE. How is this not reading the 1st two sentences when both those topics are DPS PVP builds.
- JailBreak (in development)
I was reacting to you mentioning GCTRL's thread since the one you quoted was more about OP showing off and you trying to insult "whiners" yet again, which isn't really nice. So GCTRL, who is, afaik, a well-thought-of member of community, posted a elaborate guide with a note:
Even if he did included some "PvE-oriented" options in his build, the main purpose of it is being a special kind of DD. So a "glass cannon" cleric trying to heal a undergeared or underskilled PUG in a dungeon where 1000 and 1 mobs are chasing his divine bottom sounds extremely fun. Of course, pending answer is "don't run with a pug", the typical answer that PvE clerics hear when they "whine" about their hard time in PvP. Anyway, the point of my intervention was to tell you that you should drop this overweening tone and stop calling everyone a "whiner". They are players, just like you, they have a right to voice their concerns on this forum, nothing bad about this. And you are hardly the expert on every class and every build to be so arrogant about other people's troubles.
I'm currently leveling my 1st char mainly through PvP and she's yet to reach lvl 60. I don't think rogues should be buffed, they have decent damage and if they are using their utility spells right and not attempting to tank a GF/GWF, they are hardly the weakest class, even if pre-60 rogues are easy to counter indeed.
I completely agree with you on this. I have a L 60 DC and there have been times when I get maybe 1 or 2 kills, but I have 50 assists. Also, I have tons of points because I am capping control nodes.
However, on my new TR which I have taken from L 11 to 23 solely in PVP, I play like you described. If I can get the kill, especially in 1v1 I will go for the kill. Otherwise I cap a lot and I harass the other team. If there is a fight with more then 4 people I usually get focus fired so after a few hits, its stealth and run. This is how I end up with 15 kills and 0 deaths.
- JailBreak (in development)
you will most likely be in for quite a surprise when you hit 60
15 kills and 0 deaths while capping nodes is a good team player.. those who get 30+ kills and die seldom and end up making their teams lose while helping nobody out I hate upon either side (two of those on my team means I'll be constantly out numbered and die a lot while all the non-rogues end up at the bottom of the chart while the team loses but the rouges finish at the top and get their top of chart item reward... I'll often leave right away and find a different match than play in this type of scenerio).
Just because you've never personally seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen often:
http://i.imgur.com/sV0H0iP.png
http://i.imgur.com/NzOZYO9.png
http://i.imgur.com/DDTrPKA.png
http://i.imgur.com/eRyxL1g.png
LOL all the jealous baddies who can't kill anyone and die constantly in PvP say that K/D don't matter and all that matters are Assists and personal points. I've even had a troll Rogue tell me that all my kills are "lucky killsteals."
You won't games if your team cannot kill your enemies. No amount of backcapping and running away from fights will win you games. Your team will eventually have to kill the other team more often than they kill your team at some point in order to win.
Then again, you're a lowbie newb Cleric, so you have no clue what you're even talking about. When you finally get out of the lowbie brackets and into the real level 60 PvP, you may one day understand.
Kills don't matter when you have 1 sent GWF contesting the far flag and keeping 2-3 of the enemy team defending it.
He can have a 0-20 K/D and still win teh game for his team.
Kills are good yeah, but without a proper strategy they are pretty useless. Not saying K/D always doesn't matter, but in some cases dying several times just to contest a node and prevent the enemy from getting points will win games.
Guess who kills (or at least makes them run away) those easymode cheese Sent. GWFs and prevents them from sitting on the nodes all day?
I contest enemy nodes. That's what I do. I go into the enemy's territory and either cap or contest their nodes, while killing their defenders. If I get zerged, I run away and come back to do the same thing again. I don't play like a wuss like most people do in this game. You can contest/cap nodes without dying, you know?
if most rogues didn't play like a wuss then you would really see how OP the class is, as it currently stands rogues are often detriments to their own teams (especially if all they do is spend the bulk of their time killing off nodes)
Rogues are not OP. Sent. GWFs and GFs with Regen gear and 6-7 G.Tenebrous are OP.
(Talented) Rogues are just good at what they're intended to do: kill single targets fast. People cry all the time about Rogues because they get owned by them due to their bad gear, bad gameplay, and inability to see how to counter Rogues.
I do agree that most Rogues I see in PvP are horrible and a wasted slot on their team. Then again, I can say that about most players of all classes in PvP.
As for this thread, it's just the same Rogue haters whining about the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for weeks and months on this forum. They'll never learn to adapt or improve their gear and gameplay. They'd rather just troll the forums all day. I do agree that permastealth Rogues are cheesy, overpowered, and only played by p*ssy Rogues who can't do well with a spec that takes more talent. However, permastealth Rogues are also easily countered.
- JailBreak (in development)
I never personally follow a build literally , i always make some changes to make it fit for me and that's why i linked the two builds for you.
I'm offering solutions for some classes ( GF GWF TR CW) to counter the perma build , some i tested myself and some were tested by my friends / guild mates. So i'm not being arrogant, i'm stating facts that you aren't aware of ( as you mentioned before you are a newbie cleric) and i was only trying to help you.
I'm calling people "whiners" when they actually ignore the solutions, and stick to the nerf hammer instead of using their heads and adapt to the current situation so i'm sorry if you took it personally, i never called you a whiner.
Like for example, one of my offered solutions was the rejuvenation pot . But yet some "whiners" attacked me for suggesting it as it isn't " intended" to be used in PvP ( i have no clue why they claim that) and they still stick to the nerf hammer. This is when i call them whiners.
I hope i cleared out your confusion.
As a CW:
Try to use steal time, it litteraly shut them down.
If the TR throws daggers at you from stealth, observe the direction of the daggers and use your 3 blinks to cancel his Cloud of steel damage build up. You will make him waste lots of daggers that way.
Make sure you slot shield, it will push them off even if they are stealthed.
Use conduit of ice once he appears , the tornado animation will show up on him revealing his location even while stealthed. and the damage over time will make him lose more stealth regeneration.
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As for TRs,
Pretty mcuh try to use smoke bomb whenever you sense him approaching , and ofcourse use your dodges to cancel his daggers build up not to mention impossible to catch.
Try to move your cursor around to spot him , sooner or later he will approach you to get benefit of his stealth+ lashing blade combo.
As for daily , use Blood Bath , it will hit him even if he goes stealthed again and it will pretty much destroy all of his hit points.
PS. Only use blood bath with 2 targets maximum else the outcome damage will be very low.
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As for DCs,
Pretty much stay inside your astral aura , try to use your dashes aswell. As a cleric make sure you are never alone, the perma rogue will always target you first in the crowd try to kite him up and let your team do the job.
Use your punting abilities, it is very annoying when he tries to approach you.
you have a daily that root enemies while staying in place, make sure to use that once he appears.
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For GFs,
Make sure you raise your shield whenever he starts throwing daggers, even if he use tenebrous, your shield will waste 5 up to 9 daggers out of 12.
Move your cursor around and once you spot him, use your 3 knocks and he is pretty much dead.As he will need to use shadow strike to regenerate his stealth back so make sure he is on the floor most of the time.
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A general solution for all classes, make sure you always pick up the regeneration potions near the capture points. They work even if your hit points are full and can regenerate all your hit points.
Try to have some potion of rejuvenation with you , they are useful in these situations.
Good luck.
What about DCs!?! Poor clerics...
Ahem, your solutions for CW work only to blind and very stupid rogues, no one and I mean no one stays to watch steal time to go off. No reasonable rogue goes near CW with shield, it can be seen miles away. CoI does work IF you get them out from stealth by some miracle.
Teleports DO NOT WORK AGAINST GEARED ROGUES, CWs have too little hitpoints to survive.
CW solution to permastealth rogue is either get very very lucky or die, usually die. and die. and diediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediediedie.
And that's your average TR. Boasting about skill while running cheap **** carried by bull**** game mechanics.
I have seen CWs with 23k HP , idk how that is very little. It is more than enough to survive his 12 daggers with 3 dashes and shield slotted.
He will eventually have to approach you to do his lashing blade, this is when you can use shield or steal time.
If you are a CW and dying from his 12 daggers only , it means you are pretty much low geared / standing still.
And here is the reason:
I apologize if my post was a bit rude, but "rogue brigade" seem to throw around insults pretty easily and hardly make any effort to make a civil kind of conversation, and I figured you're the one of "them". You didn't called me a whiner, but you called that other players - and I insist that they have a right to whine without you being rude to them. If they don't listen, tell them they are unreasonable, if they persist, talk to other people who will listen to you.
This is what happens to mages in many other MMO games. That's why you have to kite and never stand for too long in one place; and ofc use the terrain when it's possible. Yes, casting takes time, so you have to run around between casts and preferably use skills with the lowest cast time, even if damage is mediocre. At my low level PvP I've seen a lot of this - mages standing still and casting their spells, only to be swiftly slaughtered. Since leveling is extremely fast in NWO, I believe these poor souls reach lvl 60 without proper understanding how to evade the attack of a real opponent. It just the playing versus real people takes a bit different approach, you won't defeat them in the same manner as mobs.
Those screens were all from the broken pvp at level 60, you are rarely going to see those numbers in the more balanced and functioning pvp before level cap.
BTW, you can win games by taking points and not letting the enemy stand on them, you don't need to rack up lots of kills to win, although it is fun. I've actually seen quite a few games where the winning team had less kills than the losing team.
So CW's are suppose to dodge and survive using shield but stand still use steal time when they think the rogue's coming to use LB. Aren't they suppose to get in range to use shield to knock them out of stealth? Or stand still to cast steal time in order to knock them out of stealth? And don't the permastealth rogues use impact shot rather then lashing blade? :rolleyes:
The only things broken about PvP at level 60 are Sent. GWF and GFs with Regen gear and 6-7 G.Tenebrous, permastealth Rogues, and Perfect Thunderhead Enchantment. I'm not any of the above. Also, there's nothing balanced about PvP at lower levels. CWs get Ice Knife and wreck everyone in the 40-59 brackets. Players who twink their characters are far superior to actual new players and dominate them.
Show me games where the winning team has significantly less kills than the losing team then maybe I'll believe you.
Both can work that's why i said " shield or steal time".
About impact shot, they do use it ofc but i would use lashing blade instead since either ways my stealth will be consumed.
It is actually situational, i would use lashing blade and annoy them with impact shot in 1 vs 1 situations but in mass pvp impact shot first will be more useful since you will have a safe distance from the crowd.
I think you just proved my point.
BTW I never said "significantly" , I said "I've actually seen quite a few games where the winning team had less kills than the losing team. " Which you will likely see if you level through pvp without twinking since the game is domination not elimination.
I was being facetious because all of your suggested counters for a cw when put into actual game play context would require the rogue to be a complete dolt to be affected by any of it.
So if a rogue makes a mistake and fall out of his stealth by a CW it means he is a complete dolt? :rolleyes:
I would rather say that he got outplayed, but since you are so perfect, i suspect that you will never fall in such mistakes.
Like i said, my suggestions are tested by me and friends they are based on actual game play context