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About PvP - GWF balance
jawarisin
Member Posts: 149 Arc User
Well hello there,
First of all, who am I? I got a lvl 60 rogue which i'm not playing, a 60 dc with full end game gear etc 11.6k (meh i didn't really enchant, im lazy and i do the job as it is
) And owner of a pvp 11k+ gs CW.
I am also levelling a gwf and a gf currently.
The subject I was bringing here is the Great Weapon Fighters "Immune" thing. We all know what I'm talking about. In a patch around the 20th, guardian fighters and great weapon fighters got buffed (while other classes were nerfed). I never really had to complain about any class. I'm getting 1 "shotted" by some TR's if i don't avoid their stuff and such, but I take it as part of the game. I even accept to be a ping-pong ball for GF's.
But one thing I noticed, is that since that patch, the Great Weapon Fighters Immune thing is now way unbalanced. It's no secret, they get it approximately every time they loose 10% health. And it HEALS them for that amount back, adding a temp hp shield on top of it and a 25-50% (usually 50%) damage reduction on top of a total immunity to crowd control.
So to say, the great weapon fighter is a: Fast moving class which features 1 hit kill combos (or nearly, depending on class), a ton of CC, huge self healing, and a tab that can be used every 1-2 second (literally 1 or 2) (if being attacked) healing them, empowering them, shielding them and making them Immune to all damage as well as reducing the damage they take.
Right now, great weapon fighters are harder to kill than guardian fighters. They are tankyer, faster and deal more damage (although guardian fighters do a **** ton and pushes you around, but hey, overall still balanced).
Now I understand the concept, they run but they can't dodge, so that Immune thing is somewhat replacing it. But healing them when they use it as well as making them virtually invincible (with a minimum life steal) is not the best solution.
I don't pretend I got the best solution, but I do think it should get nerfed. In fact, I know it will get nerfed in the future, it's just that obvious, the question is when and how. I would like to make that "when" as soon as possible, and the how... Well I got my own suggestion, but I'm sure there's plenty of ways to get this straight.
I'm suggesting putting an internal cooldown of 5 seconds after that immune thing is finished, leaving a 5 second gap to deal damage. The great weapon fighter class is a very tanky class which deals a lot of damage, so I think 5 seconds is a low enough and high enough time to make it more reasonable.
Please understand I am referring to level 60 PvP.
First of all, who am I? I got a lvl 60 rogue which i'm not playing, a 60 dc with full end game gear etc 11.6k (meh i didn't really enchant, im lazy and i do the job as it is
) And owner of a pvp 11k+ gs CW.I am also levelling a gwf and a gf currently.
The subject I was bringing here is the Great Weapon Fighters "Immune" thing. We all know what I'm talking about. In a patch around the 20th, guardian fighters and great weapon fighters got buffed (while other classes were nerfed). I never really had to complain about any class. I'm getting 1 "shotted" by some TR's if i don't avoid their stuff and such, but I take it as part of the game. I even accept to be a ping-pong ball for GF's.
But one thing I noticed, is that since that patch, the Great Weapon Fighters Immune thing is now way unbalanced. It's no secret, they get it approximately every time they loose 10% health. And it HEALS them for that amount back, adding a temp hp shield on top of it and a 25-50% (usually 50%) damage reduction on top of a total immunity to crowd control.
So to say, the great weapon fighter is a: Fast moving class which features 1 hit kill combos (or nearly, depending on class), a ton of CC, huge self healing, and a tab that can be used every 1-2 second (literally 1 or 2) (if being attacked) healing them, empowering them, shielding them and making them Immune to all damage as well as reducing the damage they take.
Right now, great weapon fighters are harder to kill than guardian fighters. They are tankyer, faster and deal more damage (although guardian fighters do a **** ton and pushes you around, but hey, overall still balanced).
Now I understand the concept, they run but they can't dodge, so that Immune thing is somewhat replacing it. But healing them when they use it as well as making them virtually invincible (with a minimum life steal) is not the best solution.
I don't pretend I got the best solution, but I do think it should get nerfed. In fact, I know it will get nerfed in the future, it's just that obvious, the question is when and how. I would like to make that "when" as soon as possible, and the how... Well I got my own suggestion, but I'm sure there's plenty of ways to get this straight.
I'm suggesting putting an internal cooldown of 5 seconds after that immune thing is finished, leaving a 5 second gap to deal damage. The great weapon fighter class is a very tanky class which deals a lot of damage, so I think 5 seconds is a low enough and high enough time to make it more reasonable.
Please understand I am referring to level 60 PvP.
CW Renegade comprehensive build+guide PvP:
Here for the build+guide
Here for the build+guide
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Apparently you don't. There is a huge difference in paragon paths, yet you lump all GWF's together. Same with TR's, where perma-stealth and executioners are all lumped together too.
You propose 'balances' regarding lvl60 PvP, yet you don't even play the class at that level.
Basically the whole point is:
Hi Devs, Rock here, I'm telling you Scissors are fine, really. But Paper needs some more 'balancing'.
You must have gotten roflstomped in pvp to make that post....lemme guess...you tried to face tank a GWF?
How about you go and read some threads that have tactics in how to beat a GWF instead of asking for nerfs to the class.
That wasn't really clear, you could of explained yourself better but I will try to answer as much as I understood from your post. I'm talking about lvl 60 GWF. I got 3 characters, which I all played a lot of pvp with at lvl 60. My favorite is personnaly my CW with which I run a "custom made" build. And I personnaly kill TR's fine If i see them coming. Same with my cleric. TR's are really limited once they used their big hitting skills. And If you know only a little the mechanic behind, It's usually quite easy to avoid being killed before you can react. I' not lumping them together, but Rogues are the squishiest class of all (possibly next to cw). If you catch one of them, they are dead. they got a downside, no matter their build, if you hit them hard, they die quickly.
Great weapon fighters got no downside, they do high damage, have amazing defence, healing and survivability, and are Immune to about anything you can do 95% of the time.
As for that rock and paper thing, care to explain it better?
Wish I could show you my stats, I'm usually always at the top of the scoreboard with at least a 4 k/d. That's an instant 5% heal with a 10% or so shield. And considering the huge healing they got on their skill, they shouldn't get that kind of stuff. Lifesteal and healing skills are already strong ennough. Add a near permanent CC immunity and damage reduction to it...
But I still think you didn't get my point. I think the way it is right now is fine, all I'm saying is the "no cooldown" on it is ridicoulous. In pvp it's literraly 1 to 2 seconds of hitting them before they get it again (or roughly 10% of their life). That's ridicoulous.
Here for the build+guide
I am sorry that you think it is OP when it is not.
Restoring Strike? Not many folks run that skill since the others are better for burst.
He's actually right, and this is a total straw man reduction of his arguments.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
We can only use unstoppable when we have ENOUGH determination. So no, it does not need a CD.
Well its not about making a class totally useless, but some skills are very powerful. I dont think that the GWF is to strong, but their stunlock is very hard and unstoppable is even harder. I understand CWs and Clerics with less damage reduction who cant CC the GWF and cant run away because they are immune and very fast. Sometimes its feeling like beeing killed by the HULK himself
But: there are enough window of vulnerability. Use CC effects on the GWF and its easy. But sometimes you need the whole team to kill an unstoppable GWF
And here is the reason:
Lots of threads with some basic tactics on how to deal with a GWF.
Find one that has tactics for the class you are using and have fun.
Its a total troll class, in pvp, based completely around a single ability. Imo, unstoppable is a bit broken. It literally does everything you could want an ability to do: cc immunity, hp regen, temp hp, and another buff that i cannot recall.
As a cw, i find it lame that i have to play top notch, for an extended period of time, while they just run in circles popping unstoppable. I win (aka chase them off b/c a gwf has to choose to die) most of the time. Its just an annoying fight vs a skill-less troll class.
Only plus about gwfs is trolls hate to be trolled. You kill them once or twice, say "u mad bro??" In zone chat, and them will mindlessly chase you being useless for the rest of the match
Right on. /10char
Here for the build+guide
I'm at this point in the game where I'm the one making guides or helping others
Played it too much for my own health.
Here for the build+guide
I believe they have a huge damage reduction buff along with unstoppable. When I hit the average GWF, I deal a 10k crit on them with lashing blade, but when I do the same when they have unstoppable on, I deal only around 3k crit. Yeah, NEVER waste your encounters on a GWF while they're unstoppable.
As a CW with endgame gear (multiple tenes, greater vorpal), I find it nearly impossible to beat a geared tanky (I think Sentinel skill tree?) GWF in a 1v1. Sometimes I get lucky and land an Ice Knife and burst them down before they get up and pop Unstoppable.
I know other classes don't have the same difficulties with GWF. Geared GFs can easily knock them down and kill them before they can pop Unstoppable. And, of course, Rogues can deal with them too since they have an answer for everything; shocking execution ignores their Unstoppable defense.
This is pretty spot on. If you see them go unstoppable, just avoid them for a little while and switch to another target so you're not wasting your attacks on their temporary HP. They're pretty easy pickings if you time your CC's as soon as unstoppable goes down. With my other 60 classes, I rarely die to GWF's...you just need to know when to avoid them.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
COI + enfeeble will pretty much destroy their DR. If you can get two enfeebles on them, it's basically a death sentence if you attack while they're out of unstoppable. Problem is most CW's will spam their abilities while they get off cooldown...don't do this. Apply enfeebles right when unstoppable is going to expire, and start cc'ing/nuking them, then run back if that didn't kill them or it's their turn to open up on you.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
My time as a GWF must have been broken something fierce because I couldn't get my unstoppable to go off every 2 seconds no matter how much I mashed that button. But then again those tricky CWs seemed to have mind reading powers because they always dodged my super obvious slow animation take down and repel me so far back and usually ice stormed me so I would be moving slower and if I sprinted it they just kept moving til I couldn't sprint and after 2 or 3 minutes of neither of us killing the other I'd get bored and go look for a rogue that wasn't in stealth as they are quite tasty...shame there are so many permastealth rogues now darned if I can find them.
Sure, you're civil.
You wrote: "I am also levelling a gwf and a gf currently", which made me assume you don't have a lvl60 GWF in pvp yet. You're only commenting on what you saw other people do.
If you do have a lvl60 GWF you should have known there is a serious cooldown on Unstoppable, it's called 'taking damage' and it's not so good for one's health.
You also lump all paragon's path together, as if massive survivability, maximum determination and extreme-selfhealing in unstoppable are skills on every GWF. They are not, you should know that if you play one.
When unstoppable can be activated, it only gives a 25% damage reduction. It takes a lot more damage to get it to the full 100% determination and get the 50% damage reduction. If you see a GWF go berserk every few seconds, he does NOT have the 50% reduction.
While in unstoppable, the GWF does NOT get determination from taking damage. I know the common consensus is to treat the GWF like a leper when he's in unstoppable mode, I just don't think that's the smartest thing to do.
As the game of rock-scissors-paper... every class has a strength and a weakness. Claiming OPness of class X because it skills exploit the weakness of your own class, is like rock asking for a nerf to paper, because paper always beats rock.
You don't want to get nerfed we understand you like being a demi-god.. But seriously the GWF needed love but they went overboard. They went from not being able to kill anyone to not being able to be killed by anyone. All most of us wanted was somewhere in the middle.
The class is so cheesy right now I can't even bring myself to play mine anymore, as I like knowing my skill is what is getting me the wins not some cheesy game mechanic. What is even worse is it not ONLY heals it makes them immune to any form of CC and THAT in itself is my problem with it.
To fix it they need to drop the heal by 50% and drop the total time in immunity down 25-30%.
If you really did play a GWF at 60 you would not be crying about it on the forums.
Unstoppable fully feated only heals 5%. Sorry about your luck with the CC immunity. Want to know why? WE ARE MELEE!!!!
We have no ranged attacks so yes we need CC immunity along with sprint in order to get into range to do ANY damage.
Unstoppable used to heal 5% before the change. It requires 5 points now so quit complaining about unstoppable.
No. If being attacked, the gwf is being killed. And dies with a full, unusable Tab bar.
Or maybe yes, if attacked by the At-Wills of another gwf.
Against another class, the (being attacked) gwf is also perma-dazed, or a perma-hanging in the air, or a perma-proned, or perma-disabled. And yes, the said gwf can hit his Tab key literally every 1-2 second, without ever getting Unstoppable.
I am a DPS with 13k GS GWF destroyer. Please teach me how to go into unstoppable with 10% hp gone
You don't even know what you are talking about...
if anything, we need more buff.
This^^, unless your gwf take mighty leap (which is pretty useless in pvp only when you 1v1 CW), else you will just keep getting kite until u die.
So being one-shotted by a TR is considered a balanced mechanic and "part of the game," but being able to tank huge damage isn't? OK.
What makes them immune to damage is an armor enchant called Soulforge, which by the, is accessible by ANY CLASS, including TRs. Unstoppable only grants them immunity from CCs and damage reduction. Also, several people have already figured out how to stop a Sentinel specced GWF. It's not hard.
Maybe you should do some research before you do some whining on the forums. You don't even understand how the class works. It seems like you are speaking from a perspective of a player who has played a GWF up to level 15.
TR have a smokebomb that disables for 10 seconds. GF knockback sends you flying half way across the level, prone. CW has nonstop push/choke abilities. Even cleric can send you flying with divine burst or chain you up.
GWF can knock you down for 1 sec, and stun for 1 sec with flourish. thats it. and you want to take away the ONE thing we have to fight ALL those other moves?
About 10% health for unstopable what have you been smoking?.
The only OP thing in this game would have to be the Tenebrous enchant, any class with 6 of those will crush any class without it, so why don't you go and whine about that.
10% hp is a bit ridiculous of a number, but i understand his reasoning.
A single encounter rotation is enough for gwfs to pop unstoppable. While that is much more than 10%hp it does feel like an extremely short amount of time. So i get where this guy is coming from.
Typical fight vs gwf goes like this: use encounter rotation, gwf pops big red, kite till big red is over, use all encounters again, repeat till gwf runs away (assuming both of you are near max hp).
While that fight isnt very difficult (normally) is always annoying. What bothers me the most is gwfs have to choose to die. 1v1 its almost impossible to kill a gwf, as they can choose to flee every time unstoppable procs. You can force them from the point and such, but to land a kb they have to choose to fight it out.
I agree trs are similar in this regard. Maybe gwfs just bother me more b/c at least trs have to be stealthed so i dont see them fleeing as plainly
This made me lol and playing my GWF I do feel like a huge Dbag doing this... but hey, dont hate the player hate the game ^^
People are always going to do everything in their ability to win/make their e-peen bigger so we better get used to it.
Determination does build up pretty fast, I will say that. I honestly feel like a bit of balance would be tone down the determination build up from damage taken but give it a slight boost for damage given.
Oh and the reason the other GWFs complain about needing a buff is b/c they are crappy PVE DPS spec and dont play fully pvp... Going up against a 37k HP GWF with 7 Greater Tenes and whose rgen ticks for around 1500/3 seconds... Its hard to win.
The other thing to note is that if you have low HP (25k) as a GWF you wont get unstoppable until youve probably taken about 8k damage, meaning your at around 17k HP (about 2/3rds of max hp)... When you have 37k HP itll probably pop when you have about 30k HP left... so thats the big difference...
I agree its pretty OP and should get a slight rebalance but it realyl isnt hard either to counter with tactics/timing or even a decent amount of DPS.